All this talk we incessantly hear in the media's left-wing echo chamber and here about the damage President Bush has done to the United States' relationships with our European allies is exaggerated. It occurs to me that Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office.

Are they not?

Italy:

Italians Restore Conservative Berlusconi to Power

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89631358

Bush's Italian 'Good Friend' Berlusconi Returns to Power

Quote :

"In a political twist that pleases the White House, Italian voters this week have returned one of President Bush's closest foreign friends—Silvio Berlusconi—to power in Rome. Berlusconi, a flamboyant 71-year-old media magnate, gave Bush important (and hard-to-get) support for his decision to invade Iraq and topple the government of Saddam Hussein. Before he was turned out of power two years ago, Berlusconi's government sent 3,000 Italian troops to post-invasion Iraq. He also gave Bush plenty of rhetorical backing on the president's freedom- and democracy-promotion agenda overseas. Berlusconi even encouraged a pro-U.S. rally at a time when Europe was frothy with anti-Bush antipathy over Iraq and other moves condemned as unilateralist."

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/world/2008/04/15/bushs-italian-good-friend-berlusconi-returns-to-power.html

Germany:

German conservatives seek to boost Afghan troops

Quote :

"BERLIN (Reuters) – Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives are pressing to expand German troop levels in Afghanistan by 1,000 or more, a party source said on Tuesday, shortly before Merkel was to meet U.S. President George W. Bush."

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1016239420080610

Quote :

"Merkel advocated a strong transatlantic partnership and German-American friendship. In the spring of 2003, defying strong public opposition, Merkel came out in favour of the U.S. invasion of Iraq, describing it as 'unavoidable' and accusing Chancellor Gerhard Schröder of anti-Americanism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel

France:

Sarkozy takes French presidency

Quote :

"Conservative candidate Nicolas Sarkozy has won the hotly-contested French presidential election."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6630797.stm

Quote :

"Sarkozy, elected 10 months ago as the most American-friendly of French presidents since World War II, pledged to rejuvenate France's faltering economy."

Quote :

"Sarkozy, unlike his predecessor, Jacques Chirac, has backed U.S. foreign policy on several fronts, such as supporting economic sanctions against Iran, committing more NATO reinforcements in Afghanistan and viewing Israel as a friend."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-03-06-sarkozy-france_N.htm

So, basically, suck on that, Bush derangement syndrome sufferers.

6/12/2008 4:53:34 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080612/ap_on_re_eu/bush_europe

6/12/2008 5:00:35 AM

^ GTFO out of this thread. Did you even bother to think--"think"? Ha-ha! Of course not! How silly of me--that presidents (U.S. and otherwise) get protested for all sorts of things just about everywhere they go?

Yes, you have a firm grasp of the obvious--Iraq is the site of an unpopular war. And?

Can you try to harness your last remaining brain cells cell--the one that isn't being chased down by bong smoke--to address the OP? No? Didn't think so.

Shut. . .the fuck. . .up, you fucking moron.

6/12/2008 5:10:03 AM

i cant believe you wrote that entire thing...you should be ashamed of yourself

6/12/2008 5:15:29 AM

Quote :

"Can you try to harness your last remaining brain cells cell--the one that isn't being chased down by bong smoke--to address the OP? No? Didn't think so."

6/12/2008 5:18:36 AM

Gordon Brown just weakened habeas corpus

just in case!

Quote :

"We should put in place this legislation in a moment of calm, rather than have to come to the House in a moment of panic"

So this might be hooksaw's first ever thread not based on a flawed premise!

6/12/2008 8:27:34 AM

so you pick Italy, Germany and France.

Italy who just 60 years ago was a fascist state.

Germany who just 60 years ago was a nazi state.

do you think all of the fascists and nazis just left these countries when the war was over?


and France whos president Sarkozy just married a super model named Carla Bruni who has fucked Mick Jagger "

6/12/2008 8:40:01 AM

Quote :

"do you think all of the fascists and nazis just left these countries when the war was over? "

No, but liberals don't hesitate to use progressive Europe as an example of how the US should be. Why can't conservatives do the same thing? If that is your comeback, then don't point to France as an example of how we should do healthcare, education, worker rights, etc.

This is just another example of a liberal's double standards. When Europe is moving toward secularism and socialism, we should emulate them. But the second Italy starts cracking down on abortion and France starts building nuclear plants, we are expected to brush them off as a bunch of fascists.

e: I think its interesting that you criticize Sarkozy's personal life. Like other moral conservatives, I agree that it is a public issue. According to all the liberal media outlets, this should be a non-issue. So do you think a politician's private life is ALWAYS game for public comment? Or do you only attack a leader's lifestyle when you disagree with their policies? Just remember, you're on a 2-way street.



[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 9:17 AM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 8:59:16 AM

Who's criticizing? Sarkozy knows how to do it.

6/12/2008 9:55:00 AM

You don't think Sarkozy's smoking hot wife is some help to him in being re-elected?

Conservatives scream all the time about how we're going to end up like the French or Germans in a socialist state and rabble rabble rabble and how their economies are going down the toilet and whatnot. If both sides are making unsubstantiated claims about Europe's political and economic situation, that suggests we're not well-informed.

Germany is in the middle of a pretty severe immigration crisis, mostly from Turkey, the Balkans, North Africa, and the Middle East. And let's face it, if you're looking for jingoism, you go to a conservative. That doesn't mean they like us any better, there's a reason people who travel to Europe come back and say "They don't like us over there, it might have been a good idea to claim to be Canadian."

6/12/2008 11:39:00 AM

Quote :

"so you pick Italy, Germany and France."

I don't see anything wrong with picking the 3 of 4 the most populous countries in Europe (not counting russia).

1 Russia 143,974,059
2 Germany 82,424,609
3 France 60,424,213
4 United Kingdom 60,270,708
5 Italy 58,057,477


Then when you consider Britain has been close to the US for a while...

6/12/2008 11:50:55 AM

^I'd like to see someone try comparing the US to Russia.

6/12/2008 12:01:16 PM

NEWSFLASH: Conservative in Europe is not the same thing as in America

Second NEWSFLASH: Bush had nothing to do with the election of said conservatives in Europe

Third NEWSFLASH: It's the Economy Stupid.

Fourth NEWSFLASH: Don't feed the troll.

Fifth NEWSFLASH: Use the thread you already made on this topic.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 3:45 PM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 3:38:36 PM

^ Stop trying to wreck my threads, you socialist fuckhead. If you don't like them, GTFO and stay out.

Quote :

"It occurs to me that Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office. Are they not?"

Disprove this ^. And forget the meaning of conservatism, do you also have a DNC/Daily Kos/MoveOn revisionist definition for the word "friend"?

Bush's Italian 'Good Friend' Berlusconi Returns to Power

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/world/2008/04/15/bushs-italian-good-friend-berlusconi-returns-to-power.html

Bush 'proud to call Merkel friend'

Quote :

"The trip is Bush's first visit to Germany since Merkel, a conservative, became chancellor in November. But she has already visited Washington twice, describing her relationship with Bush as 'a very, very good rapport.' German-American relations had been strained by the decision of Merkel's center-left predecessor, Gerhard Schroeder, to oppose the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. But the two leaders have been expressing unity, agreeing that the Tehran regime cannot be allowed to develop nuclear weapons."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/13/bush.germany.0915/index.html

Why Nicolas Sarkozy is Bush's new best friend

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/11/07/do0706.xml

I guess that ka-pwns the shit out of your feeble attempt at a position, nutsuckr--the admitted liar.

6/12/2008 4:40:39 PM

HAHAHA, acknowledging you are wrong is not lying. Do you need a dictionary?

Let's look at simple facts here:

1. you argument is based upon a flawed supposition that the election of conservative leadership is somehow translatable to George W. Bush.

2. You completely ignore the reasons why these governments have risen to power

3. You ignore how Spain, in a sign of goodwill towards George Bush and his policies, voted out the Conservative Government and replaced it with a Socialist Government.

4. You ignore how Portugal, in a sign of goodwill towards George Bush and his policies, voted out the Conservative Social Democrat Party (center-left in Portugal unlike the rest of Europe), and replaced it with a Socialist government

5. You ignore the massive weakening of the British Labour Party in favor of the conservative Torries, who despite being conservative are riding a wave of anti-Americanism. Margaret Thatcher wouldn't recognize this party.

What is the argument of this thread? That because of economic conditions in Europe, the people there have decided to replace the liberal leadership for conservatives, except France where there was no change in Party. All the while you ignore the fact that the major supporters of the US involvement in Iraq have been elected out of office. They are no longer in control. You argument is intellectually bankrupt.

6/12/2008 5:29:17 PM

Quote :

"You ignore how Spain, in a sign of goodwill towards George Bush and his policies, voted out the Conservative Government and replaced it with a Socialist Government."

Well, when terrorists started blowing people up right before the election, Spain reacted by voting for the commies. I always thought France was the most spineless nation in the west, until the Spanish voted for the terrorist-endorsed ticket.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 5:45 PM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 5:45:10 PM

nutsmackr is such a worthless troll

Quote :

"This is just another example of a liberal's double standards."

6/12/2008 5:51:44 PM

^ Bingo.

^^^ You're a fucking idiot. Why are you here if being here is "feeding the troll"?

You're right here, though--liberal leaders are bad for economies:

Quote :

"That because of economic conditions in Europe, the people there have decided to replace the liberal leadership for conservatives. . . ."

nutsuckr

Despite your rabid far-left flapping, flailing, and foaming, you have not disproved and cannot disprove my position:

Quote :

"It occurs to me that Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office. Are they not?"

hooksaw

Your attempts to reframe my position are laughable. Regardless of the reasons, Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office--it's an indisputable fact.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 5:55 PM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 5:51:47 PM

Quote :

"So this might be hooksaw's first ever thread not based on a flawed premise! "

my thoughts exactly

6/12/2008 5:56:25 PM

^ So, you really have nothing to offer other than an attack?

6/12/2008 6:00:47 PM

how was that an attack?

there is one thing i don't offer -- rolly eyes

6/12/2008 6:15:04 PM

6/12/2008 6:32:21 PM

I think the moral of this thread is that Sarkozy is the smartest leader in the world. Maybe Putin.

6/12/2008 7:05:25 PM

Sarkozy's popularity is starting to diminish in France

Quote :

"Your attempts to reframe my position are laughable. Regardless of the reasons, Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office--it's an indisputable fact."

This thread still has a majorly flawed conotation

[Edited on June 13, 2008 at 8:20 AM. Reason : .]

6/13/2008 8:20:07 AM

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/12/america/pew1.php?page=1

6/13/2008 10:24:13 AM

Quote :

"This thread still has a majorly flawed conotation [sic]"

nutsuckr - Admitted liar

Yeah, and the flaw is yours--try "connotation" next time. My point stands and it burns you worse than your recurring ass rash because you cannot legitimately dispute it:

Quote :

"Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office."

hooksaw

6/15/2008 12:38:14 AM

More from our good friend Silvio Berlusconi:

Quote :

"I suppose I could express my own personal preference for one of the candidates, the Republican candidate, and this is for a very selfish reason, and that is that I would no longer be the oldest person at the upcoming G8."

6/16/2008 4:50:43 PM

haha

6/16/2008 4:55:21 PM

^^^So what is the point of this thread? Just so you can say Europe's leaders are closer to Bush? Well, then what is the point of it then? Oh that's right, you make this bold little claim: "incessantly hear in the media's left-wing echo chamber and here about the damage President Bush has done to the United States' relationships with our European allies is exaggerated." Which is entirely true. you use the contorted logic of Europe electing conservative leaders as evidences that our ties were never better. Well, excuse me if I do not accept your moral/intellectually bankrupt argument. Especially when I have posted time and time again about this. Want more evidence about our standing with allies?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/12/america/pew1.php?page=1

p.s. you need to learn what a lie is.

Let's also look at some of our closer to home allies.

Mexico - Vincente Fox's party was thrown out on its head and replaced by the liberal Calderon.

Bolivia - Evo Morales, rises up to power, close ally to Hugo Chaves

Venezuela - Hugo Chavez, under the watch of Bush has been capable of playing the North v. South card in South America, leading to the rise of other far-left political leaders in direct opposition to United States interests.


Oh that's right, it's only fair when you cherry pick the data points

[Edited on June 16, 2008 at 5:17 PM. Reason : .]

6/16/2008 5:06:43 PM

Quote :

"So this might be hooksaw's first ever thread not based on a flawed premise!"

Except this is based on the asinine assumption that European Conservative = American Conservative.

Fail/10


Not to mention that the Italians are not at all excited about the return of Berlusconi, he was just the lesser of two evils. He doesn't exactly have a warm and fuzzy corner of the collective Italian heart.

Quote :

"Sarkozy's popularity is starting to diminish in France"

It hasn't just diminished, it has plummeted. He isn't at the epic lows of GW Bush, but he is not winning the hearts and minds of the French people.

6/16/2008 6:32:27 PM

yeah i'd think a conservative european is like at best a centrist in america

6/16/2008 6:35:41 PM

Not even that. There are some radical rightists in Europe, it is just that their definition of "conservative" has to do with conserving their own individual political and cultural traditions, not ours. Likewise their liberals will be different in many way than ours.

6/16/2008 6:48:39 PM

italy's economy is horrible
germany is nothing special and probably never will be again
france has so many problems with muslims, what do you expect?

6/16/2008 6:53:25 PM

Berlusconi is quite possibly the worst leader of a so-called industrialized nation and Italy is a horrible country and has been under everyone that's ruled it since confederation and if not for some good engineers and fashion designers would be no better than some place like Romania.

I think we're letting the fact that Chirac and Schroder were personality-wise much less welcoming and prideful on Iraq get in the way of this reasoning. Aside from Iraq, their policies differ little when you get down to the nuts and bolts, even when you compare the CDU and the SDP (or the Grand Coalition and the Red-Green Coalition) in Germany. Sarkozy proposed some labor market reforms and Germany and France have tinkered a little with pension funding but not done anything to move towards an American model...that's about it.

Maybe Bush should get closer to Merkel and learn more about how to keep your industrial base. They've been staying above water since reunification largely because they've successfully kept their export edge despite the extreme lack of capital in the former GDR.

And someone said Sarkozy was re-elected...oops.

[Edited on June 16, 2008 at 9:22 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on June 16, 2008 at 9:23 PM. Reason : .]

6/16/2008 9:20:55 PM

Quote :

"Mexico - Vincente Fox's party was thrown out on its head and replaced by the liberal Calderon. "

LOL, wut?

Calderon was Vicente Fox's Secretary of Energy, and his hand-picked successor since Mexican Presidents are ineligible to run for re-election. Obrador was the leftist, and he proceeded to whine for months and threaten a revolution when he was defeated in the election.

6/16/2008 10:09:07 PM

^You need to look at the policies.

6/16/2008 10:13:40 PM

You know, sometimes you should just admit that you are full of shit.

6/16/2008 10:56:38 PM

Quote :

"It occurs to me that Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office. "

I suppose, but I don't see the connection to the first sentence about left-wing media.

It's more likely Europe would've gone more right anyway; and one could argue, that were we not in Iraq, those leaders could be that much closer to us. That we would have that much more influence over their economic and foreign policy decisions without alienating the voting public there.

Ultimately Europe is a natural ally of the U.S. Our relationship with them transcends individual political moments. I think we take that much for granted -- and European leaders know we will be closer eventually. But we spent a lot of political capital on Iraq; that is our bed, and we'll be stuck lying in it for some time.

6/16/2008 11:01:53 PM

does this mean we can be part of the axis powers when WWIII starts?

[Edited on June 17, 2008 at 7:57 AM. Reason : they had cooler hats]

6/17/2008 7:57:25 AM

Quote :

"You know, sometimes you should just admit that you are full of shit."

Sometimes it would help if when you google you read more than the first line of every link. Look at the domestic policies. He ripped them directly from his opponent.

6/17/2008 8:59:59 AM

Quote :

"Except this is based on the asinine assumption that European Conservative = American Conservative. Fail/10"

JCASHFAN

1. At no point did I indicate that the European conservative is the exact same thing as the American conservative. So, in reality, you fail.

2. This is my point--and you cannot legitimately dispute it:

Quote :

"Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office."

hooksaw

Supporting sources:

Italy:

Bush's Italian 'Good Friend' Berlusconi Returns to Power

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/world/2008/04/15/bushs-italian-good-friend-berlusconi-returns-to-power.html

Germany:

Quote :

"Merkel advocated a strong transatlantic partnership and German-American friendship. In the spring of 2003, defying strong public opposition, Merkel came out in favour of the U.S. invasion of Iraq, describing it as 'unavoidable' and accusing Chancellor Gerhard Schröder of anti-Americanism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel

France:

Sarkozy takes French presidency

Quote :

"Sarkozy, elected 10 months ago as the most American-friendly of French presidents since World War II, pledged to rejuvenate France's faltering economy."

Quote :

"Sarkozy, unlike his predecessor, Jacques Chirac, has backed U.S. foreign policy on several fronts, such as supporting economic sanctions against Iran, committing more NATO reinforcements in Afghanistan and viewing Israel as a friend."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-03-06-sarkozy-france_N.htm

Quote :

"So, basically, suck on that, Bush derangement syndrome sufferers. "

hooksaw

6/17/2008 1:10:04 PM

So, by your own quotes, you're saying that Europe loves us, and our criminally incompetent administration, by virtue of the fact that it's elected leaders are forging stronger ties with the US despite (according to your own quotes) opposition within the country.

What a winner you are. Your math teacher must be so proud.

6/17/2008 1:38:15 PM

^ Have you gone stupid or something? I keep posting my point, but some of you continue to have trouble comprehending it--here it is once more:

Quote :

"Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office."

6/17/2008 2:40:16 PM

To which the response is: What is the point of your point?

6/17/2008 2:43:35 PM

^ It really should be self-evident.

6/17/2008 3:06:07 PM

http://www.newsweek.com/id/141769

[Edited on June 17, 2008 at 4:28 PM. Reason : .]

6/17/2008 4:25:31 PM

ohhhh, so this is a random facts thread with no relevance whatsoever.

right.


Well I had a roommate in college with a superfluous third nipple. You never hear the liberal media reporting about that do you?


But to the point:

Quote :

"All this talk we incessantly hear in the media's left-wing echo chamber and here about the damage President Bush has done to the United States' relationships with our European allies is exaggerated. It occurs to me that Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office."

So you're saying an unpopular president is close to European leaders who are, with the possible exception of Merkel, unpopular in their own right . . . so everything must be ok between the US and Europe.

yay!

6/17/2008 7:36:59 PM

^ I'm saying. . .

Quote :

"Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office."

AGAIN!!!1

6/17/2008 9:19:24 PM

Again, what is the point?

6/18/2008 9:30:45 AM

Quote :

"Europe's leaders are closer to Bush and America than they were when Bush took office."

6/18/2008 3:05:41 PM