http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/business/worldbusiness/24auto.html?ref=business

Quote :

"Toyota Ahead of G.M. in Auto Sales By NICK BUNKLEY Published: July 24, 2008 DETROIT — Toyota Motor sold nearly 300,000 more vehicles than General Motors in the first half of 2008 and appears to be on its way to ending G.M.’s 77-year reign as the world’s largest automaker. Toyota said Wednesday that it sold 2.41 million vehicles in the second quarter, 2 percent more than a year ago. G.M. said its sales for the quarter fell 5 percent, to 2.28 million."

Quote :

"Toyota intends to halt production of its largest vehicles for several months and starting in 2010 plans to build its popular hybrid sedan, the Prius, in the United States for the first time to capitalize on the surging demand in this country."

I can't say I'm very sympathetic for the big 2.5-- they could've acted with a measure of responsibility at any point, but they decided to push impractical, overpriced trucks on soccer moms.

Hopefully auto workers won't be hurt too much.



[Edited on July 23, 2008 at 2:14 PM. Reason : ]

7/23/2008 2:12:49 PM

Yeah, it sucks that we're getting trounced right now, but they really shot themselves in the foot by being complete fucktards for a long time (the big 3)

7/23/2008 2:17:40 PM

Why do you hate America?

7/23/2008 2:17:43 PM

And honestly, I'm not going to get too teary-eyed when Big 3 workers have to take typical skilled labor salaries when they're hired by foreign companies.



[Edited on July 23, 2008 at 2:23 PM. Reason : .]

7/23/2008 2:21:03 PM

you guys have to realize that gas surged pretty quickly. There was no real need for them to change thier business plan bc it was working well. Yes, they are at fault for not developing some alternatives but the SUVs were thier bread and butter.

Does GM still pay more for their retirees than thier current workforce?

7/23/2008 2:32:38 PM

It never was working well. the Big 3 were in massive trouble long before the oil price surge.

7/23/2008 2:43:40 PM

7/23/2008 2:49:07 PM

Quote :

"you guys have to realize that gas surged pretty quickly. There was no real need for them to change thier business plan bc it was working well."

yeah, gee - wow.... i mean, who could have ever foreseen that we all wouldn't be able to drive 13mpg trucks around with $1.50 gas for the next 2 decades?

7/23/2008 2:49:44 PM

^clearly the best qb on monday.

I guess you missed the rest of my post saying they are a fault for not developing alternatives too. Understandable since that is one high horse you are sitting on.

7/23/2008 2:52:40 PM

You can't say they were right for not being prepared and sticking to SUVs and that they also should have been developing alternatives. It doesn't work like that, they have to be wrong somewhere.

7/23/2008 3:13:11 PM

Well, they did invest a couple hundred million into electric cars (EV1) in the 90's. Their timing wasn't so good though, since gas was still selling for $1.25 and battery technology was not up to par.

The Volt looks like it'll be a winner when it hits the market.

[Edited on July 23, 2008 at 3:21 PM. Reason : 2]

7/23/2008 3:20:53 PM

Quote :

"It never was working well. the Big 3 were in massive trouble long before the oil price surge."

7/23/2008 3:29:45 PM

420, I never said they werent wrong, its just that you have to understand that the price of gas surged in a short amount of time. Meaning their cash cow dried up pretty darn fast. They got caught with thier pants down.

great point about the EV1. I guess they didnt want to keep making these at a loss in the hopes that gas would double over the course of a couple years. Instead they continued to produce the only things selling well for them.. strange huh.

I agree the volt looks nice, but I think they outpriced thier market. imo.

[Edited on July 23, 2008 at 3:40 PM. Reason : .]

7/23/2008 3:39:40 PM

Quote :

"you guys have to realize that gas surged pretty quickly. There was no real need for them to change thier business plan bc it was working well. Yes, they are at fault for not developing some alternatives but the SUVs were thier bread and butter."

The SUV boom was not a strategic business move but a life saving Godsend. The Big 3 were in trouble prior to the boom and the boom may have just prolonged the inevitable.

There is some serious talk that the Volt will save GM but right now GM death watch is still on. I am playfully writing a paper on the issue called "Unprofitable at Any Speed" which basically argues that legacy costs and a seemingly unreformable corporate bureaucracy make it unlikely that GM will ever recover.

[Edited on July 23, 2008 at 3:41 PM. Reason : save]

7/23/2008 3:41:13 PM

yes, but since our taxpayers are in teh bailing out mood. Will we pull another chrysler?

Bad businesses need to fail. To the victor goes the spoils. If chrysler would have been allowed to fail, then the other american brands could have had a bigger market share. Instead they all just limped along.

7/23/2008 3:47:31 PM

Haha in that case every American brand would fail

7/23/2008 3:57:15 PM

This is the free market at work...

Can't say I have much sympathy for the shareholders or management. The top brass should've identified the trend and hedged against it long ago.

Quote :

"Hopefully auto workers won't be hurt too much."

Months back, just prior to the buyout, I worked with many GM auto workers very closely on their benefits.

The shorthand version is this: they're quite fucked.

Despite its appearance as a responsible corporate behemoth, GM took little interest in educating its workers on how to prepare for the eventual purging of their pension and medical benefits. They've shed tremendous liabilities already, but are still bringing more buyout offers online.

7/23/2008 4:31:18 PM

the long version is also, that they're quite fucked

not to mention all of the other little companies that supply the big companies--they're fucked too

7/23/2008 4:50:38 PM

This is what happens when Wall Street "gets drunk."

7/23/2008 5:21:15 PM

Quote :

"not to mention all of the other little companies that supply the big companies--they're fucked too"

I'm sure they'll find a growing market in Asia with which to peddle some of their wares. Sure, China can produce it cheaper, but they have to get the ideas from us first. Those that are quicker to aid our friends to the east in stealing our own designs will make some profit from it for awhile.

I doubt auto makers will disappear, it's just going to take them going out of business to get the union monkey off their back, a gutting of the board/ceo and all the upper level management that just likes the big paychecks, and some infusion of new blood.

Who said capitalism was fast?

7/23/2008 5:29:27 PM

I have no sympathy for largely unskilled labor unions. If they were handbuilding all these cars then you could argue that they were skilled, but by and large they're just like every other assembly line worker in the world, easily replaced by a robot or someone with a week of training.

I also have no sympathy for automakers who failed to see the inevitable results of their refusal to change. The days of the gas guzzling SUVs and unnecessarily large cars and trucks were numbered in the 90s. The fact that they continued to focus their efforts on that while competitors consistently produced higher quality built, more efficient, cleaner vehicles just proves how incompetent their corporate leadership is.

[Edited on July 23, 2008 at 6:45 PM. Reason : adfasf]

7/23/2008 6:43:32 PM

Quote :

"you guys have to realize that gas surged pretty quickly. There was no real need for them to change thier business plan bc it was working well. Yes, they are at fault for not developing some alternatives but the SUVs were thier bread and butter."

Their bread and butter? The SUV surge started in the early 90s. They should have never been so lazy and let SUVs become their bread and butter.

And will everyone PLEASE stop putting down GM for not still having the EV1 around. It wasn't a success and they lost a lot of money on that project. Its real world mileage was more like 30-40 miles and today it would cost an equivalent of around $40k. That for a small two seater with no cargo space.

7/23/2008 9:24:41 PM

Quote :

"Its real world mileage was more like 30-40 miles"

You mean range?

Quote :

"yeah, gee - wow.... i mean, who could have ever foreseen that we all wouldn't be able to drive 13mpg trucks around with $1.50 gas for the next 2 decades?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil ?

And guys, Toyota isn't the worst evil globalization can do. In fact, it's about the best. They've moved a lot of stuff over here while GM has moved it away.

they got hit too

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/11/business/toyota.php

Quote :

"The Japanese automaker also said it would begin making its Prius gas-electric hybrids at a new plant in Mississippi by late 2010 to meet demand for more-fuel-efficient vehicles."

And oh no, the internationally held Japanese company is going to have to shut down more truck factories and build more hybrids factories, which are quickly forming a new bread and butter for the auto companies. here. oh dear lord, where has Henry Ford's dream gone?

7/23/2008 10:13:13 PM

Quote :

"Those that are quicker to aid our friends to the east in stealing our own designs will make some profit from it for awhile."

Stealing what designs? The problem with American auto manufacturers IS design. As in, they don't know how.

I read a great observation once about companies that have bad taste from the top down. People with bad taste don't know they have bad taste; so when a designer presents a bad portfolio to them, they think it's good. And they hire that designer. And then that designer has bad taste and he hires more designers with bad taste, and so on. Soon the whole company's design culture is wrecked.

Toyota as a company has good taste and, more importantly, that translates into high standards for their brand. They do segment their products by price points, sure. But their CEO has explicitly stated they won't lower their standards, not even to get into emerging markets, and therefore they won't lower their price points either. If they make a low-priced Corolla for India, it's because they found a cheaper way to maintain the same level of quality. Not because they threw some crap together and sold it for next-to-nothing.

Ross Perot had great thoughts on GM back in the day and I'm sure they're still relevant today. Per the design point above:

Quote :

"A Cadillac needs not to come back every few days with a transmission problem, an engine problem. When you step on the accelerator, a Cadillac needs to move. Your trunk needs to be big enough to put a thermos jug in. You don't need oil puddles under any car -- and you damn sure don't need them under a Cadillac. The gaskets are bad. As a result of that meeting, I went out and talked to Cadillac mechanics. I said, ''What's going on with those gaskets? What happens when you fix them?'' They said, ''Well, we put a new gasket in, and they leak again.'' I went to an independent mechanic, a high school graduate, and asked, ''Do you have a lot of General Motors cars coming in here with bad gaskets?'' He says, ''All the time, Ross.'' I said, ''Can you fix them?'' ''Yep.'' I said, ''Do they come back?'' ''Nope.'' I said, ''How do you fix them?'' He winked at me and says, ''Come back here.'' He had all the General Motors gaskets. Then he had a good piece of gasket material, and he would lay the GM gaskets there and draw a picture with a pencil. Then he would take an X-Acto knife and cut out a good gasket from the gasket material, and he'd put that on the car. He says, ''They don't ever come back.'' He said, ''Ross, the problem is, some accountant at General Motors is probably saving 3 cents a gasket.'' Somebody probably got a bonus out of that, because 3 cents times millions of gaskets is a big number. I say put the best material in the world on the cars. Mark it up and charge customers a profit for it -- and tell them what you did. People will rush to buy it."

(http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1988/02/15/70199/index.htm -- read the whole thing, it's classic)

The Big Three are going nowhere fast. Ford is the most hopeful because they have a smart CEO but it remains to be seen how many elephants he can push up the stairs. Want to see the future of American automobiles? Bet on Tesla and Elon Musk, not the Volt and GM's 'Blanket of Fog'.

[Edited on July 24, 2008 at 1:50 AM. Reason : foo]

7/24/2008 1:48:20 AM

The market needs to finally crush the big 3 so that the American auto industry can revitalize itself with different players. Toyota needs to be one of them. The other thing we need is for some entrepreneurs to step up to the plate.

http://www.aptera.com/

Hurry up and start making stock offerings

7/24/2008 10:03:20 AM

Quote :

"the Big 3 were in massive trouble long before the oil price surge."

7/24/2008 10:54:35 AM