So this is my theory so to speak. I am theorizing that the effects of a combat tour(s) on a soldier are sort of equal to the effects of a career in law enforcement. Now there is some variance for individual experiences of course, and let it be known I have the utmost respect for our combat vets, but in my mind, the two experiences over time may have the same psychological effects due to the shared elements of the two different experiences. For sake of argument lets say its a soldier with a combat tour who never was a cop, and a retired cop who was never a soldier. I mean the two experiences both share many common psychologically stressful things in common:

Threat of death is always there
Threat of serious injury is always there
Having to hear about the death of comrades (either in your unit/department or just in general)
Seeing death on a regular basis
Having to use violence/force
Seeing the effects and aftermath of violence
Seeing gore/blood/trauma
Experiencing the dark side of humanity/society
Odd hours, being on alert
Stress on the mind and body
The very real possibility of losing your buddies in action
The public isnt always supportive of you
Lack of support from those who cant relate to your experiences
And probably more I cant think of at the moment.

The big difference is that soldiers on a combat tour are instantly and fully immersed in it, neck deep, but for a shorter period of time. A cop however, after a 30 year career, has been receiving a slow drip of the same poison for a much longer period of time. In the end, I am hypothesizing the effects on the mind and body are going to be pretty similar...of course taking some variance in the differences of personal experience. I mean lets face it, they both have high rates of divorce, suicide and stress related illness and heart attack . As well as fucked up dreams, possibility of PTSD, a cynical world view, loss of faith and other things i cant think of at the moment. just my theory.
thoughts

[Edited on August 23, 2008 at 10:24 PM. Reason : .]

8/23/2008 10:15:23 PM

and being a cop makes you a narcissistic faggot, apparently

8/23/2008 10:29:07 PM

how is posing a serious hypothetical idea narcissistic exactly

8/23/2008 10:31:22 PM

i think he means by elevating a beat-cop in a relatively safe city to the same status as a soldier in some of the deadliest places in the world

8/24/2008 12:01:33 AM

He's actually probably not far off. Cops see a lot of terrible shit.

8/24/2008 12:06:00 AM

yeah, i actually don't have a problem with the comparison, or have any hate for cops.
of course, i've never done either job, so i don't really know

8/24/2008 12:20:51 AM

Quote :

"i think he means by elevating a beat-cop in a relatively safe city to the same status as a soldier in some of the deadliest places in the world"

i am not elevating or comparing the two experiences, i am comparing the psychological effects of both the experiences because they have shared elements to a varying extent over varying amounts of time.

i have the utmost respect for combat soldiers and i am not down playing their experience. my only point is that over the long term they share a lot of things in common, just to different degrees over a different amount of time. I also made sure to state there is some variance just in personal experience.





[Edited on August 24, 2008 at 6:22 AM. Reason : .]

8/24/2008 6:17:16 AM

This has some merit.

8/24/2008 3:14:51 PM

I do not think the two careers are comparable except for the risk of injury/death. This could also include coal mining and lumber jacks.

Police even ones who spend years on patrol may never have to fire their weapon. Combat troops on the other hand may see their buddies get blown up on a regular basis or take a .50 cal bullet. Although being a cop in south central LA is likely way more trying then being Highway Cop Jake in rural Mississippi

8/24/2008 4:32:20 PM

It's my understanding that a police officer is statistically twice as likely to commit suicide than to be killed on duty. The officer is literally more of a danger to themselves than the criminals are, due to the psychological issues the job creates.

8/24/2008 4:45:51 PM

not to mention that there's only a small minority of police officers and active duty personnel that this is applicable to. A nuclear technician or a prison guard isn't very directly worried about getting shot.

I'm sure there are officers out there who get a mental beating tantamount to an active combat troop. Maybe like 2 or 3.

8/24/2008 5:05:08 PM

Quote :

"and being a cop makes you a narcissistic faggot, apparently"

8/25/2008 1:21:02 AM

When Stress Gets Severe, Police Turn to POPPA [Police Organization Providing Peer Assistance]

Quote :

"Each day, about 40,000 men and women working for the New York Police Department (NYPD) help save countless lives. Sometimes, however, they are the ones who need to be saved. While in the line of duty, they may be called to the scene of a fatal car accident or a grisly crime or find themselves dodging an assailant's bullets. When New York City's finest are over-whelmed by the stress associated with their work or are experiencing personal problems, they can turn to POPPA. The Police Organization Providing Peer Assistance (POPPA) is an independent agency that works in conjunction with the NYPD to help police cope with their distress and find mental health treatment when necessary. The program uses a cadre of volunteer officers who are trained to counsel their peers and guide them to a panel of mental health professionals who are also trained to work with police. POPPA founder and director Bill Genet created the program in 1996 in response to 26 NYPD suicides that occurred in 1995 and 1996. It is a 501(c)3 organization and relies largely on funding from donations and corporate support."

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/41/17/21

Suicide rates jolt police culture

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-02-08-police-suicides_x.htm

There are walking wounded among the ranks of police organizations just as there are walking wounded among the ranks of the military, so the OP makes an entirely appropriate comparison. Governments, private organizations, and individuals need to do all they can to assist those who help keep us all safe.

I am anti-police state--I am not anti-police. There's a big difference.

8/25/2008 2:33:06 AM

Quote :

"I do not think the two careers are comparable except for the risk of injury/death. This could also include coal mining and lumber jacks. Police even ones who spend years on patrol may never have to fire their weapon. "

Well, I think this is dependent on which city or agency you serve with. The sheriff of Mayberry probably has a very different experience compared with a member of Detroit PD or even Durham PD.

Quote :

"Experiencing the dark side of humanity/society"

I think this is the key factor in what makes police or military life so potentially traumatic even compared against other dangerous jobs. For coal miners and lumberjacks, you're up against abstract, powerful forces beyond your control like nature or mathematics. For the police and military, your life is being threatened directly by the malice and hatred of someone else. Day in and day out, you're either preparing to face the worst that humanity has to offer, or you're engaged in a struggle with them, with other people taking significant risks just to hurt or kill you. Can you blame them for coming out of the experience skeptical of the motives of others or lacking confidence in the very nature of man?

8/25/2008 10:21:56 AM

when i referred to the dark side of humanity, i didnt even mean people trying to kill you....although that fits too. I mean when you go to a house for a domestic and you see a place so filthy, with roaches crawling everywhere and garbage all over the place, and little kids just crawling around in it. Or when you go to a suicide, and then have to tell the dudes wife he is dead. Or when you have to take a sexual assault call from a 14 year old whos own dad is messing with her. Or going to a murder scene. Even just being around and talking to people you know are cold hearted killers (like the two NC State football kids or the guy who killed Laura Redman) and looking into their eyes but not really seeing any sadness or remorse. Hell there are more examples but thats what I meant by dark side of humanity.
















[Edited on August 25, 2008 at 12:34 PM. Reason : .]

8/25/2008 12:31:18 PM

Studies have shown that rush hour commuters are under more stress than police officers in riot situations as well as fighter pilots

The reason? The cops and pilots can actually do something about their stress, whereas the commuter is completely at the whim of other traffic and can't really get out of the situation on their own

8/25/2008 1:17:22 PM

Cops can beat teenagers and play mind games with the people they pull over. They also spend time cruising around and tailgating taxpayers. They get to go home every night and play with their jet skis over the weekend.

Soldiers get shot at by A-Rabs and jerk off to old pictures. I saw it in a movie.

8/25/2008 1:46:08 PM

^^ That is a function of poor stress management. Besides temporary spikes in stress levels for a brief period of time, especially those not related to life or death scenarios, do not have the same lifelong effects that a long-term elevated stress level would.

Furthermore, cops and pilots are generally type A personalities, and have experienced a good deal of stress innoculation during their training. Therefore, they'll handle stress better in the short term than the average person. Backing this up are some really interesting studies have been done comparing SERE students with Special Operations backgrounds cope with stress as opposed to those with non-SOF backgrounds.

Quote :

"One of the most interesting findings by the Army was the difference found between Special Forces soldiers and other soldiers. Data from Army studies showed that Special Forces soldiers had higher levels of adrenaline during the SERE training than regular Army soldiers. When adrenaline was measured 24 hours after the SERE stress was over, the adrenaline levels of Special Forces soldiers returned to normal levels. But adrenaline levels in non-Special Forces soldiers were depleted. The data suggests that Special Forces have a biological profile of people who are "cool under fire." "

Now, I'm stretching the comparison somewhat, but as you can see, the short term effects on a Type A personality, especially an SF candidate who had already completed the rest of the SF Q-Coruse would be better situated to handle stress than someone who had not (say a pilot who was completing SERE at the beginning of his training and who had not undergone the rigors of the Q). So comparing a cop to a daily commuter doesn't hold as much water as it would seem.

As much as some people hate cops, helping them deal with stress and PTSD would probably go a long way from removing some of the ass-hole attitudes out there and, as little as they are paid, they deserve that kind of medical attention. These aren't people we want making decisions based purely on years of unmitigated bad experiences. I want a LEO who can assess the situation for what it is.

8/25/2008 1:49:12 PM

Quote :

"Day in and day out, you're either preparing to face the worst that humanity has to offer, or you're engaged in a struggle with them"

Or are among the worst humanity has to offer. I'm sure doing a job which requires you to be evil takes a psychological toll, I'm still not shedding any tears over officer jackboot's emotional distress.

Ethics 101, ethical principles have to be universalizable to be valid. If it's wrong for me to break down my neighbor's door, shoot his dog, destroy or confiscate all of his property, kidnap him and hold him hostage for years in a dingy rape room, simply because I don't like his personal habits, then its wrong for anybody to do so.

I do not, of course, mean to denigrate or downplay the evil or perversion of some of the truly twisted fucks out there who didn't go into law enforcement. Statistically however, they simply can't threaten me as much as can an organized, systematic and legitimized agency of institutional immorality.

8/25/2008 3:27:54 PM

I don't mean to justify the actions of police officers who abuse their positions for their own twisted pleasures; those individuals should be rooted out and punished, but I don't think its right either to lump all police officers together and label them collectively as a bunch of jackbooted thugs.

They are after all, only the tip of a very large spear that involves politicians who draft and pass laws and bureaucracies that manage them. Much like the military, there are a few, rare cases where you can justify them refusing to enforce the laws and orders they are commissioned to carry out, but for the most part, I would rather have a police force and military that obey the orders of a civilian government even if the latter lacks wisdom and drafts flawed laws than a police force and military that do what they want to do despite the orders of their civilian leadership.

8/25/2008 3:45:00 PM

Quote :

"I would rather have a police force and military that obey the orders of a civilian government even if the latter lacks wisdom and drafts flawed laws than a police force and military that do what they want to do despite the orders of their civilian leadership."

Agreed, I think a lot of people forget that there are both sides to this coin.

Besides, regular psychological counseling would help to root out people who have become too emotionally unstable to continue their jobs as LEOs.

8/25/2008 3:49:46 PM

Is LEO the new pc term?

8/25/2008 3:56:48 PM

Quote :

"I don't mean to justify the actions of police officers who abuse their positions for their own twisted pleasures; those individuals should be rooted out and punished"

All police officers are required to be evil as a necessary condition of the work that they do. That badge is a symbol of their willingness to show up and do violence wherever, whenever and against whomever they're told, it represents a complete surrender of their moral judgement and personal responsibility to a fundamentally corrupt political process.

Quote :

"They are after all, only the tip of a very large spear that involves politicians who draft and pass laws and bureaucracies that manage them."

Those cunts in Washington and Raleigh and a thousands other places could draft whatever they pleased, it would be nothing more than the insane ramblings of villains and knaves unless there were people willing to go out there and use violence and terror to carry it into effect.

Quote :

"I would rather have a police force and military that obey the orders of a civilian government even if the latter lacks wisdom and drafts flawed laws"

And I would rather have no police, no military and no "government" to lack wisdom and draft flawed laws.

8/25/2008 4:07:19 PM

rock on dude.

8/25/2008 4:19:05 PM

Quote :

"All police officers are required to be evil as a necessary condition of the work that they do. That badge is a symbol of their willingness to show up and do violence wherever, whenever and against whomever they're told, it represents a complete surrender of their moral judgement and personal responsibility to a fundamentally corrupt political process."

This is also highly applicable, and perhaps more so, to soldiers in combat. When you are a cop, you are told to arrest those you find committing rape, robbery, murder, etc. No one sees those actions as right, and usually the choice is clear cut (as to the course of action to stop such evil).

But when you are a soldier, you are given orders on a broader scale, such as dropping bombs on valleys, firing artillery into buildings, etc. These can and do result in deaths of lots of innocent people. It is this that "represents a complete surrender of their moral judgement and personal responsibility".

8/25/2008 5:20:05 PM

Quote :

"And I would rather have no police, no military and no "government" to lack wisdom and draft flawed laws."

yeah let me know how well that works.

Im as Libertarian as the next guy, I want the government out of damn near everything...from the economy to personal freedoms, but there is still a need for laws and enforcement and punishment of those laws. Do you really think a law against murder, rape, robbery, home invasion, etc is unjust. I mean seriously. People like you are what gives the Libertarian party a bad name because you sound like a nutjob anarchist.

8/25/2008 5:30:29 PM

Quote :

"Do you really think a law against murder, rape, robbery, home invasion, etc is unjust"

And how many pages do those laws take up in the books vs. laws and regulations that criminalize victimless activities of one sort or another, that are concerned with the redistribution of wealth and property, that prohibit free trade, that dictate what people may and may not do with their own property, that purport to authorize some sort of government meddling in society or the economy etc...

It doesn't take 28 feet of shelf space to write "thou shalt not murder, rape, steal etc..., even if you are a lawyer.

No, I don't think a law against murder, rape, robbery, home invasion etc. is unjust. It is, however, unnecessary. It's possible to be against all those things without empowering an irresponsible body of unprincipled carrion-eaters to enforce their arbitrary will as law upon the whole population, independent of any standards of decency and justice.

http://lysanderspooner.org/LetterToGroverCleveland.htm

Quote :

" Let me then remind you that justice is an immutable, natural principle; and not anything that can be made, unmade, or altered by any human power. It is also a subject of science, and is to be learned, like mathematics, or any other science. It does not derive its authority from the commands, will, pleasure, or discretion of any possible combination of men, whether calling themselves a government, or by any other name. It is also, at all times, and in all places, the supreme law. And being everywhere and always the supreme law, it is necessarily everywhere and always the only law. Lawmakers, as they call themselves, can add nothing to it, nor take anything from it. Therefore all their laws, as they call them, --- that is, all the laws of their own making, --- have no color of authority or obligation. It is a falsehood to call them laws; for there is nothing in them that either creates men's duties or rights, or enlightens them as to their duties or rights. There is consequently nothing binding or obligatory about them. And nobody is bound to take the least notice of them, unless it be to trample them under foot, as usurpations. If they command men to do justice, they add nothing to men's obligation to do it, or to any man's right to enforce it. They are therefore mere idle wind, such as would be commands to consider the day as day, and the night as night. If they command or license any man to do injustice, they are criminal on their face. If they command any man to do anything which justice does not require him to do, they are simple, naked usurpations and tyrannies. If they forbid any man to do anything, which justice could permit him to do, they are criminal invasions of his natural and rightful liberty. In whatever light, therefore, they are viewed, they are utterly destitute of everything like authority or obligation. They are all necessarily either the impudent, fraudulent, and criminal usurpations of tyrants, robbers, and murderers, or the senseless work of ignorant or thoughtless men, who do not know, or certainly do not realize, what they are doing. - Lysander Spooner"

http://lysanderspooner.org/NaturalLaw.htm

Quote :

"What, then, is legislation? It is an assumption by one man, or body of men, of absolute, irresponsible dominion over all other men whom they call subject to their power. It is the assumption by one man, or body of men, of a right to subject all other men to their will and their service. It is the assumption by one man, or body of men, of a right to abolish outright all the natural rights, all the natural liberty of all other men; to make all other men their slaves; to arbitrarily dictate to all other men what they may, and may not, do; what they may, and may not, have; what they may, and may not, be. It is, in short, the assumption of a right to banish the principle of human rights, the principle of justice itself, from off the earth, and set up their own personal will, pleasure, and interest in its place. All this, and nothing less, is involved in the very idea that there can be any such thing as human legislation that is obligatory upon those upon whom it is imposed. - Lynsader Spooner"

8/25/2008 7:08:18 PM

The cop gets to go home and sleep in his own bed under his own roof. The soldier has to dig a whole to sleep in and hopes that he will wake up the next day unharmed.

The cop is stressed out during his shift and then he can unwind doing whatever it is he likes doing. The soldier is under extreme stress until he gets back from his tour of duty...and at that point a whole new level of stress and issues begin.

[Edited on August 25, 2008 at 7:22 PM. Reason : asdf]

8/25/2008 7:17:03 PM

You forgot about the jet skis.

8/25/2008 7:22:27 PM

yes but cops have smaller amounts of stress for a long period of time, and just like in combat, the shit you see doesnt go away....trust me

8/25/2008 7:27:51 PM

I'm glad you posted in this thread, Megaloman84.

I didn't have the courage.

8/25/2008 7:29:54 PM

Quote :

"People like you are what gives the Libertarian party a bad name"

Hey now, they're the ones who nominated Bob Barr. I had nothing to do with that.

So long as the Libertarian Party chooses to be represented by an ardent statist like Barr (Why choose the lesser of two evils when you could choose the lesser of three evils?) I'd appreciate if you didn't insult me by associating me with such wishy-washy, opportunistic sellouts

8/25/2008 7:43:45 PM

nurses and EMTs see much of the same shit as cops do, Republicop18.

i'd say my wife has seen far more than most cops around the country do.

quit whining. change jobs if you don't like it.




oops, theres another one. cops can resign. soldiers cant.

8/25/2008 11:33:41 PM

^ While I'd like to do away with both cops and soldiers, I don't understand that response.

8/25/2008 11:37:54 PM

sorry.

i should have said:

"DEAHT TO THE FASCIST PIG MOTHERFUKERS RAWR RAWR RAWR"

then you'd understand me, right?

8/26/2008 1:26:53 AM

Quote :

"The soldier has to dig a whole to sleep in"

[/obligatory dumbass]

Ok, now that that's out of the way... I can see where you're coming from with this, but I don't know if I would make this comparison. The severity of what soldiers go through is just not comparable. And you're only thinking about recruits. What about career soldiers? Surely the things they see for the amount of time they see it is worse by your criteria.

I'm not busting on cops either. I know they go through some hard stuff and I'm sure I've caused them my share of grief. But on a day-to-day basis, their job is not that hard. It has the potential to be hard, but 90% of the time you know what kind of situation you're about to have to handle, so that should help prepare you mentally.

Megaloman is a fucking nutcase.

8/26/2008 4:34:56 AM

Quote :

"Or when you have to take a sexual assault call from a 14 year old whos own dad is messing with her."

I'd be awfully tempted to smoke that motherfucker if I got sent out on that call.

Quote :

"rock on dude. "

haha, yeah. there's no point in really responding with more than that.

Quote :

"But when you are a soldier, you are given orders on a broader scale, such as dropping bombs on valleys, firing artillery into buildings, etc. These can and do result in deaths of lots of innocent people. It is this that "represents a complete surrender of their moral judgement and personal responsibility"."

the very, very short answer is that you strive for a net gain as a result of your actions.

Quote :

"Backing this up are some really interesting studies have been done comparing SERE students"

yeah, the psychologist's debriefing after SERE was really interesting. Apparently SERE produces higher stress hormone levels than any other training in the military, to include BUD/S, Q-course, Recon indoc, etc. Of course, I was pretty certain that what I'd just finished had totally sucked before the doc showed us the data to prove it. That was news to no one.

8/26/2008 4:57:08 AM

Quote :

"then you'd understand me, right?"

I could understand that better, yes. I've never been much of a fan of telling folks to shut up and stop complaining.

8/26/2008 10:13:33 AM

Please go read the work of David Grossman: On Killing. There is a different psychological effect depending on the level of perceived danger, and Grossman also goes into differential reactions based on lethal or non lethal encounters...
I can't explain it as well as he can, but there's a difference between being a Raleigh Cop, an LAPD SWAT member, a US Army soldier stationed in Italy, and a US Army soldier stationed in Iraq. If you get what I mean? Both cops and soldiers have different reactions based on experiences, and their own coping mechanisms, for that matter.

8/26/2008 12:23:50 PM

^100% Agree.

Also, you have to take into consideration (as far as combat troops go) what war the troops were involved in. Case in point: My wife and I are both Veterans and both wear combat ribbons on our uniforms, meaning we have both served combat tours. However, her combat tour occurred during the Gulf War in 1991 where as mine came in Iraq(2x) and Afghanistan (yes, she is a few years older than I, get over it). Needless to say, we had very different combat experiences. So I find it hard to believe that it had the same psycological impact on us.

8/26/2008 1:30:40 PM

^^ that is a really, really interesting book. i highly recommend it.

8/26/2008 6:24:48 PM

i served during during Gulf I, i never had any problems.




of course, i was at Whidbey Island working in a RAG squadron and playing Spades the whole time.

8/26/2008 9:30:06 PM

lol at this thread

8/31/2008 9:11:35 AM