Hey,

Somebody made the decision to allow some macs on the network. Now we have to support them. Any idea where you can get some local mac training. And I dont mean sitting at the "Genius Bar" for days.

Any ideas.

Also,

I dont hav ea mac to play with.

9/2/2008 11:26:40 AM

what the hell, if someone's gonna make that decision that you have to support them, they need to fork up some cash to buy a machine for testing purposes.

but i don't know the answer to your question.

9/2/2008 11:31:19 AM

Is this a thread of the self proclomative super computer admin/expert who can do and anything and knows everything complaining because he only knows windows?

Its OS X dude, its not that hard. User interfaces on all OS's are pretty intuitive, and if you cant figure that out combined with some google searches then... well... fail.

Edit: a quick google search resulted in the first hit being a company in Pittsboro:
http://www.opennms.com/training.html



[Edited on September 2, 2008 at 11:49 AM. Reason : .]

9/2/2008 11:37:04 AM

Probably Learning Tree or New Horizons, or a contract instructor

9/2/2008 11:38:11 AM

^^

agreed -- it's not that hard, to scratch the surface of OSX but if you've never used it, and have no way to play around with it, how can one expect you to support it?

9/2/2008 11:40:47 AM

you shouldn't even have to worry about this - whoever made that decision should provide a solution and change the decision

9/2/2008 11:44:34 AM

I suppose we should gain insight on what kind of "support" you are doing.

If its desktop support, most answers will be a matter of clicking on the title bar, and selecting preferences.

All you have to do is apply the same troubleshooting methods you use in windows toward OS X, and just be smart enough to realize the user interface and menus are slightly (and I do mean very slightly) different.

example: System Pref's = control panel

9/2/2008 11:51:34 AM

Quote :

"I suppose we should gain insight on what kind of "support" you are doing."

yeah, exactly.


it sounds like you'll be giving support to other users. So, do you need to know how to walk a user through connecting to a wi-fi network and stuff like that?

9/2/2008 11:56:03 AM

if you are looking for outsourced support/consulting, see http://tenplus.com/

9/2/2008 1:23:45 PM

Well

Its kinda all encompassing support.

Security, User support, Application support, data backup, making sure they have access to all of the resources on the domain ectra.

Yea its retarded that they are allowing mac's but its not a decision i can make or change.

Im sure all your mac addicts would do just fine fixing everythign from not being able to print, random application locups, to patching and administering a AD domain.

Im not talking about not knowing how to change the display resolution or add a printer.

Basically im looking for the equalivent of a MCDST for mac.



[Edited on September 2, 2008 at 2:25 PM. Reason : dd]

9/2/2008 2:23:22 PM

Honestly, it's not that hard to support OSX. Whenever you have a question about how to do something, just google it then apply the solution. Easy.

Don't waste your time going to brain-numbing classes on how to be a "genius". Keep your official training to the realm of that which you care about.

9/2/2008 2:26:50 PM

^^

I don't know how much control you have on SLAs or whatnot, but my employer "allows" Macs, but offer no official IT support. Our support is community driven via wiki and internal newsgroups. Honestly, I've had much more success with fixing problems this way (for those outlier issues that google can't answer) than with opening IT cases for my thinkpad.

If your higher-ups aren't going to give you any resources for Mac support, such as... a mac, then maybe facilitating a user supported community is a possible route?

9/2/2008 3:07:01 PM

Quote :

"Honestly, it's not that hard to support OSX. Whenever you have a question about how to do something, just google it then apply the solution. Easy."

it doesn't sound like he's doing this to provide family-style support, like if your grandma called up and can't get her email working. If you're on a company intranet with exchange servers, file shares, VOIP, etc, then supporting a whole new platform is a lot more than just showing users how to troubleshoot various features of the new OS

9/2/2008 3:12:09 PM

hahahahahaha. Heres what you'll expect to find every time you google problems in OSX.

Question: I want to do X with my mac, the default is Y. How do I change it?

Answer: Why do you want to do X? You should really be using Y.

Answer2: You must be doing it wrong Y always works for me.

Answer3: Oh yea I wanted to do X too. It took me a while to figure it out but i did.

Official Apple response: That sounds like a really useful feature. We dont have any plans to implement it and probably never will.

9/2/2008 3:33:01 PM

^^ OS X is designed to work with Active Directory.

Filesharing is fairly straight forward too.

I don't see how a good Googler couldn't figure out all they need to support 95% of what could go wrong in OS X.

9/2/2008 3:49:55 PM

Theres a company (i dont remember the name now) that makes a group policy processor for OSX. So you install that on all your macs, and then slot OSX specifc ADMs into your AD group policies and you essentially get Macs that you control the exact same way as PCs in your AD. It looked pretty sweet and I wanted to get it for the macs we have, but my boss decided to get an xserve :-P Waste of fuckin money.

9/2/2008 3:52:06 PM

^^ dude, you're not getting it.

Yes, OS X works with Active Directory. yes, it works with Exchange. yes, file sharing is dead-simple. yes, joining networks is dummy-proof.

But still, there is a huge difference when you're trying to support a new platform inside a company or organization with an existing (presumably) Windows-based infrastructure. There's no point in pointing out all the little things that are easier to do in Mac, or that Google can answer all your questions. That is not how IT support works.

9/2/2008 4:04:42 PM

Setting up OS X to work nicely and correctly in a networked environment (directory services, NAS, backups, installs, images, email, custom apps, etc) is not the same as using it at home. *nix admins can probably go far, but you need real experience/training to do it right.

I have no answer for the OP


I highly doubt dudes the genius bar guys would remotely know this. If you are good at this, you will be making bank somewhere.

[Edited on September 2, 2008 at 9:52 PM. Reason : .]

9/2/2008 9:30:58 PM

Quote :

"I don't know how much control you have on SLAs or whatnot, but my employer "allows" Macs, but offer no official IT support. Our support is community driven via wiki and internal newsgroups. Honestly, I've had much more success with fixing problems this way (for those outlier issues that google can't answer) than with opening IT cases for my thinkpad."

I was a proud contributor to said wiki

QFT:

Quote :

"I don't see how a good Googler couldn't figure out all they need to support 95% of what could go wrong in OS X."

9/2/2008 11:35:13 PM

Quote :

"That is not how IT support works."

I know how IT support works, because I work in IT support.

You do whatever you can to support the goals of your organization. The IT teams works for the organization, not the other way around (which is something people often seem to forget). If someone wants a Mac, they get a Mac, and it's not a big deal for the people who get paid to take care of the technology to step out of their comfort zone a little, and learn a little about a new platform.

Half the people in IT got their experience from just dicking around on their own, so it's not like that would be something new.

You only run in to problems when you have large-scale deployments. But a few odd machines is no big deal.

For large scale deployments, that's when you really need someone who has some formal training. But from what's described in this thread, handling a few macs is nothing that an IT geek shouldn't be able to do.

9/2/2008 11:49:17 PM

Quote :

" Half the people in IT got their experience from just dicking around on their own, so it's not like that would be something new. For large scale deployments, that's when you really need someone who has some formal training. But from what's described in this thread, handling a few macs is nothing that an IT geek shouldn't be able to do."

Agreed. If your troubleshooting method remains the same, which it should under any circumstance, and you have half a brain to realize [windows] right click + properties = [os x] app name + preferences you can knock out 80% of most users troubles.

The OS was written to be "intuitive" in the scope of human computer/user interaction. In short, theres nothing tricky about how the menu properties are named. Just think like you would on a windows machine and look for the similar or equivalent on a mac.

Seriously, its pretty darn easy.

9/3/2008 12:08:59 AM

again, showing people how to use Safari instead of IE or Mac Photoshop instead of Windows Photoshop isn't the problem here. It's installing and configuring obscure VPN software so users can access the network from home, installing data backup systems that mesh with the existing backup structures (i.e. not just flipping on Time Machine), writing and running remotely stored log-in scripts that auto-mounts network drives, disabling Software Update and pushing OS and program updates to users only on your time table, etc.

9/3/2008 7:22:11 AM

you guys should have some type of applecare/warranty/service plan? they would be glad to help you out, but you gotta call em.

[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 7:30 AM. Reason : and pay for it]

9/3/2008 7:30:30 AM

I think agentlion is the only person who actually knows about computers in a big corporate environment.

Right now im unsure if our current vpn software will work. Nor do we necessarily have licenses for software that they want/need. Currently the VPN software checks for the presences of patchlink and CSA, im unsure if there is a MAC exemption.

Other smaller programs such as IP tv, and the cisco softphones ectra.

Security is a major concern.

Add to the fact that we have some custom apps, this can and will become an issue.

IT is there to support the businees goals, but Business does not dictate the small details. We should not allow macs into the environment. There is no reason to have a mac in the environment. And it opens a hole can of worms as far of support and added cost of additional software ectra.

Im sure you allow all your users to run as admins right? Install aim yahoo toolbar?

This is computer managment not just desktop support. We have a managed environment, not some network you setup at your local print shop.

Im not talking about problems like "Hey I cant print this file"
or "Hey how do i change my screen resolution"

Im talking about, I want to use my blackberry as a teathered modem, do you have software for it?



[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 10:04 AM. Reason : dd]

9/3/2008 10:02:02 AM

Quote :

"It's installing and configuring obscure VPN software so users can access the network from home, installing data backup systems that mesh with the existing backup structures (i.e. not just flipping on Time Machine), writing and running remotely stored log-in scripts that auto-mounts network drives, disabling Software Update and pushing OS and program updates to users only on your time table, etc."

On the level of "not hard" to "impossible", what you just mentioned is around the "any monkey can do it" level. All that takes is a small amount of reading from how to documents on Apples website.

Quote :

"Right now im unsure if our current vpn software will work. Nor do we necessarily have licenses for software that they want/need. Currently the VPN software checks for the presences of patchlink and CSA, im unsure if there is a MAC exemption. Other smaller programs such as IP tv, and the cisco softphones ectra. Security is a major concern. Add to the fact that we have some custom apps, this can and will become an issue. IT is there to support the businees goals, but Business does not dictate the small details. We should not allow macs into the environment. There is no reason to have a mac in the environment. And it opens a hole can of worms as far of support and added cost of additional software ectra. Im sure you allow all your users to run as admins right? Install aim yahoo toolbar? This is computer managment not just desktop support. We have a managed environment, not some network you setup at your local print shop. Im not talking about problems like "Hey I cant print this file" or "Hey how do i change my screen resolution" Im talking about, I want to use my blackberry as a teathered modem, do you have software for it?"

You seem to provide a lot of "I dont know" reasoning to develop such a concrete conclusion.

Its either you being scared or sloppy and neither is a good prerequisite to base your decisions on.

[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 11:24 AM. Reason : .]

9/3/2008 11:21:30 AM

I'm sure Antec's company will hire you as a consultant if you want to share your vast Mac-in-the-enterprise experience with them

9/3/2008 11:24:28 AM

I used to work for Apple.



Other than that all I have done is look at the reasoning behind his statements and can determine if he has properly done his research or not. That indicates if he is blowing things out of proportion etc.



[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 11:26 AM. Reason : .]

9/3/2008 11:25:22 AM

There is a lot of I dont know, because frankly we dont have the machines.

I work for the Feds, and I cant just go out and buy software either. We have to go though 10 steps to order a mouse.

dd

9/3/2008 11:30:15 AM

Quote :

""Right now im unsure if our current vpn software will work. Nor do we necessarily have licenses for software that they want/need. Currently the VPN software checks for the presences of patchlink and CSA, im unsure if there is a MAC exemption."

I ran Cisco VPN software without CSA on my mac when it was required on my windows machine. No problem as far as I can tell.

Quote :

" Other smaller programs such as IP tv, and the cisco softphones ectra."

They work the same on a mac as windows... IPTV is multicasted and can be viewed on the VNC client - not a big deal. Cisco softphone actually has more features and integration than windows softphone. I was one of the Alpha testers of the Cisco Softphone for Mac. I used it several times and it was simply the biz-omb.

Quote :

" Security is a major concern."

With OS X? Seriously?

Quote :

" Add to the fact that we have some custom apps, this can and will become an issue."

Your management should have thought about that before deciding to design/develop/deploy custom apps in the first place. You would have the same issue if you moved to linux. That a common drawback (and penalty) when your company decides to go with proprietary software.

Quote :

" IT is there to support the businees goals, but Business does not dictate the small details. We should not allow macs into the environment. There is no reason to have a mac in the environment. And it opens a hole can of worms as far of support and added cost of additional software ectra."

The "business goals" in the IT industry are to focus on collaboration and inter-compatability. By excluding potential clients simply because they dont utilize the same (limited) proprietary software/platforms that you do, you not only make yourselves look like a bunch of tards, but you are destined to lose business regardless. There is no excuse especially in this day and age of cross platform compitibilty. A multitude of companies making HUGE pushes to appease their consumers, regardless how much of their own platform is used and in whatever combination with another. Its all about collaboration now.

Quote :

" Im sure you allow all your users to run as admins right? Install aim yahoo toolbar? "

Nope, but you might want to try a front roll next time you fall after that large of a swing and miss.

Quote :

" This is computer managment not just desktop support. We have a managed environment, not some network you setup at your local print shop."

OS X's integration to AD alone should provide a lot of the management you already implement.

Quote :

" Im not talking about problems like "Hey I cant print this file" or "Hey how do i change my screen resolution" Im talking about, I want to use my blackberry as a teathered modem, do you have software for it?""

If the user is asking such a question then I can only assume its not supported anyway. Thus it will receive a very short, sweet, and simple response. Unsupported.

If your company does support it then simply give them the application thats been licensed/purchased for that objective. Otherwise the decision to use a product in that manner falls under the same decision making process of weather or not to allow such a use of a device, and subsequent levels of support therein.


Seriously, stop whining. It sounds pathetic.

Youre making things out to be so much harder than they really are.



[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 11:47 AM. Reason : ,./]

9/3/2008 11:43:40 AM

^says the one who dosnt have to deal with it. I don't care what you beta tested or anythign else. Enterprise is enterprise. There is a reason things arent done like they are in your apple networked hair salon.

9/3/2008 4:11:13 PM

You lost pretty terribly, stop.

9/3/2008 4:14:52 PM

^^ Stop whining like a little bitch.

You try to patronize apple products when you dont even know how to operate them (let alone support them) while insinuating others know nothing about a support environment of which you only know a single platform therein.

I dont need to list my credentials. My replies alone have debunked your superficial rambling.

Take the blinders off and go get a tampon, you dont know shit.

[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 4:39 PM. Reason : .]

9/3/2008 4:39:42 PM

again, why don't some of you apple geniuses offer your services. Antec says he works for the government - you could rape them with consulting fees, and nobody would care

9/3/2008 5:14:47 PM

Claiming osx's ad support is anywhere close to windows is a fucking hilarious. Without an xserve or expensive 3rd party apps you won't get close.

9/3/2008 7:14:17 PM

is wut Incognegro/Tiberius?

Also, why is this thread even in existance? Aren't Macs so dead simple to use and administer that there is no need for training or support? I mean obviously they are worlds better than anything else, so why has this thread spiraled out of control?

9/3/2008 8:25:28 PM

Its not as hard as people make it out to be.

9/3/2008 8:38:33 PM

what is your problem, Noen?
you've extolled (some) virtues of Mac recently.

Surly you of all people would know that running Mac at home is not the same as introducing it into a previously Windows-only enterprise

9/3/2008 9:07:56 PM

If all you want to do is give someone a mac, use AD for authentication and then let them manage their software, its real easy. But there isn't anything like the granularity of control that there is with windows. You're not going to be able to add a mac to AD and do printer mapping, logon scripts, software policies, etc...

You can do it with OSX server and its not much different than AD. You can even have your OSX server use AD for auth which is nice because the Apple directory server is pretty garbage. Or like I said you can go with something like Centrify where you actually use straightup windows group policy on OSX.

For other applications you'll just need to see if they support OSX. That part is hit or miss. Most major software vendors have OSX versions these days.

If you're not doing a major roll out I wouldn't even worry about it. But if you're going to be rolling out a lot its worth putting together a management solution. Even if you aren't going to use policy for restrictions, you'll want the remote management abilities.

9/3/2008 9:37:06 PM

^^I'm just being sarcastic Trying to bring a little humor to a completely silly thread. I know you guys could have just given him pointers to what he needed, instead of this retarded diatribe about a vs. b

9/3/2008 9:48:52 PM

Or you can authenticate against kerberos...

9/3/2008 9:52:52 PM

you can authenticate against an abacus if you write the driver for it, but thats not the point.

Authentication is a minute part of enterprise management. Critical for sure, but its only the start. Your attitude is esactly why macs aren't very good in the enterprise. Apple's entire business line is built arround "the one true Apple way". Any alternatives are shot down. This works great for marketing to home users with more money than sense, but when it comes into the Enterprise and companies demand the Apple change their OS it confuses them.

Surely no one needs software deployment or disk encryption or better security management! A Mac comes with everything (we think) you need!

Macs work great in the workplace when you give them for competent workers. I know Bobby likes his mac at work, and I'm sure no one has to worry about him fucking it up. But if you want to roll out 5000 macs to Joe Moron, you need better management utilities. Apple is just starting to realize this. They're getting better at enterprise support and security fixes, but they're still not up to the level of Microsoft. And wut you're attitude of oh yea you dont need that stuff is only going to stall enterprise acceptance.

9/3/2008 10:33:27 PM

To answer your original question. call your apple sales rep and ask about their training. The "Genius bar" stuff is worthless so dont bother with it. They'll also loan you an xserve for 30 days if you want to try it out.

9/3/2008 10:45:22 PM

I was referring to the way my last job as a sys admin had everything set up. They authenticate their macs against kerberos (IIRC... its been 3 years or so) and use AFS tokens to manage participation with the print servers, network file storage, etc. I dont think AD management was a high priority on their list but it may have been done. I didnt have much to do with AD unless I was adding a new user/machine.

I agree Apple should open up more to enterprise, but I guess they like to stick with the time old expression of KISS.

9/3/2008 10:49:44 PM

Quote :

"Macs work great in the workplace when you give them for competent workers. I know Bobby likes his mac at work, and I'm sure no one has to worry about him fucking it up. But if you want to roll out 5000 macs to Joe Moron, you need better management utilities. Apple is just starting to realize this. They're getting better at enterprise support and security fixes, but they're still not up to the level of Microsoft. And wut you're attitude of oh yea you dont need that stuff is only going to stall enterprise acceptance. "

This is 100% true. Apple has a long ways to go to be where MS is for Enterprise support.

But it's not impossible, there are organizations using Macs in large scale deployments. The critical factor is doing everything with Apple's stuff.

But, for this thread, for a handful of Macs, it's not hard to meld them with an existing infrastructure. And since the people using Macs would have to specifically choose them, they should be clear that any incompatibilities because a vendor doesn't write code for Macs just has to be tolerated. But they are tons better than they were 2 years ago to integrate, and there are tons of resources on how to use them with various set ups.

9/4/2008 1:24:25 AM

^ nail on head.

9/4/2008 8:58:25 AM

Ohh yea

Just found out at least from initail apperances that McAfee Endpoint encryption dont run on macs. And yes im sure macs have built in encryption but we want it managed

but our smart cards work.

not sure how they will play with IPSEC and some resources.

9/4/2008 9:16:57 AM

The built in encryption in OSX is not full disk and not really worth implementing. They also dont offer File Level encryption because their file system doesn't support adding it. Its only recently that companies have started releasing FDE for macs. Checkpoint has one that seems to work ok and has some management abilities. I haven't had any dealing with it though.

The cisco vpn client for the mac works pretty well now. There were some issues a while ago but they've been fixed.

9/4/2008 9:22:23 AM

Quote :

"There were some issues a while ago"

so glad i don't have to

sudo /System/Library/StartupItems/CiscoVPN/CiscoVPN restart

every time i want to use the vpn client anymore.

9/4/2008 10:42:28 AM

I like the way the cvpnd service works in windows, but the OSX version doesn't seem to have one. Did they originally try to do it that way and get rid of it later?

9/4/2008 10:59:32 AM

^^ The VPN subsystem is not available.

lol, hated that.

9/4/2008 1:05:58 PM