beta came out today

http://www.apple.com/safari/

2/24/2009 9:49:59 AM

looks good so far. i'm using it now.

The Top Sites feature was obviously ripped from Chrome, but it was a good feature to lift. And Apple implemented it with style, of course. (or maybe it all came from Opera? dunno, who cares about Opera). I like that you can edit the Top Sites - move them around and pin them in place. I don't think Chrome does this.

Also the Tabs on Top was lifted from Chrome, but again, a good one to copy. There's no reason to waste all that space above the menu bar.

Gmail does seem to be faster with the new JavaScript engine. Might be confirmation bias, but it still felt faster going to COmpose Mail or switching mailboxes.

I wish they would take another feature from Chrome - autohiding the Bookmarks Bar. I didn't realize I wanted this feature until I used it on Chrome. For me, pretty much the only time I use the Bookmarks Bar is right after I open a new tab, so autoshowing and autohiding the Bar is a great idea and another space saver

[Edited on February 24, 2009 at 10:21 AM. Reason : .]

The Address bar is better now too, and seems to work faster and better than FireFox's "Awesome Bar". I like how auto-suggestions are broken up into groups that are easy to scan and read, instead of one big ugly list in FireFox

[Edited on February 24, 2009 at 10:28 AM. Reason : .]

2/24/2009 10:20:37 AM

what is Apple's obsession with Cover Flow? It's utterly worthless...

Otherwise, it looks pretty good on their website.

2/24/2009 12:11:20 PM

downloading it now.

^coverflow has its uses.

2/24/2009 12:11:49 PM

http://lifehacker.com/5159416/safari-4-beta-adds-cover-flow-runs-3x-faster-than-firefox

2/24/2009 12:22:42 PM

^^ maybe, but browsing old webpages one at a time isn't one of them.....

i really, really like Top Sites. It's the best implementation of this idea so far. It is immediate in how fast it works - open a new tab, and instantly the Top Sites page is ready. Then click on a site, and the thumbnail of the site kind of flies out and expands into the window instantly. The image of the site remains dimmed while the page loads in the background. There is no flickering or visible reloading of the page - makes for a much smoother experience. (I think it's similar to how the iPhone launches apps, where they load an image of the app instantly while the actual app loads in the background)

[Edited on February 24, 2009 at 12:24 PM. Reason : .]

ok, i partially take back the Cover Flow statement. I guess it could be useful if you have a mental image of a webpage in mind and you want to browse back until you see it. but even so, i think a scrolling thumbnail view would still be better

[Edited on February 24, 2009 at 12:25 PM. Reason : .]

2/24/2009 12:23:32 PM

My initial reaction...I like it!

One thing I really like is being able to easily drag a tab into its own new window (not to mention it looks cool doing it).

2/24/2009 12:25:50 PM

^ yeah, the tab management has really gotten better, especially the overflow management, where you have so many tabs they overflow off the end of the bar.

but, at least since Safari 3 you've been able to drag a tab off of the bar into it's own window. And best thing, it doesn't reload the page, so you can, for example, drag a youtube tab into it's own window without the video restarting.

The main difference between Safari 3 and 4 is that with 3, you could grab anywhere in the tab to move or detach it. Now in Safari 4, you have to grab the corner of the tab where the lines are, because the main body of the tab acts like the Title Bar of the whole window so you can move the window around

2/24/2009 12:28:41 PM

it's having problems loading google reader and remember the milk for me

like a little bit will load but none of the actual content - like none of my tasks in RTM and none of the articles in greader

odd - it loaded fine the first time but now it's not

edit: nvm fixed by reopening - must be a bug in the beta

[Edited on February 24, 2009 at 12:36 PM. Reason : .]

2/24/2009 12:33:32 PM

that, or a bug with RTM. If RTM used undocumented API features or input manager hacks, then Apple is not obliged to maintain backwards compatibility with them.

2/24/2009 12:38:02 PM

Quote :

"what is Apple's obsession with Cover Flow? It's utterly worthless..."

i agree. its pretty, but not useful at all to me. i try to use it and end up changing it back after 10 seconds

2/24/2009 12:57:05 PM

Sweet! You can even drag and drop new windows into a tab in another window. Not sure if this was possible in Safari 3 but I know FF does not have any of these capabilities.

2/24/2009 1:42:56 PM

^ yeah, both of those were available in Safari 3.

They are not in FF 3 yet, but are in FF 3.1 Beta. However, even in the FF 3.1b when you drag a tab to create a new window, the page in the tab reloads, so you can't drag video or active content into a new window without restarting it

2/24/2009 1:53:22 PM

^^^ concur

2/24/2009 2:42:21 PM

took me a while to find the new Refresh button, and I still instinctively go to the left side of the toolbar. I know conceptually that maybe it belongs inside the address bar, but I'd still like a bigger standalone button in the toolbar for it. And it should be bigger than what it is now

2/24/2009 3:29:56 PM

I too have found myself doing the same thing, although its the same way on the iphone...

2/24/2009 3:39:49 PM

Quote :

"One thing I really like is being able to easily drag a tab into its own new window (not to mention it looks cool doing it). "

This feature has been in Safari since v3.

But, on my Windows work lappy, Safari 3 is actually usable as my main browser. And most sites (including TWW) seem to be faster in rendering. Some sites aren't much faster at all though, which is a bit strange.

My only complaint is that when using Windows, the close boxes are on the left of the tabs, while Windows puts its close boxes on the right of windows. It trips me up every now and then. I also hate the translucent title bar that Vista has, I assume they can change this somehow.

The URL also is very close in mimicking the Firefox "Awesome bar" which is my favorite feature of Firefox.

[Edited on February 24, 2009 at 4:49 PM. Reason : ]

2/24/2009 4:46:52 PM

thats the only reason I ever used FF3 was because of the "Awesome Bar" and now that Safari 4 has it there is no reason to use FF3 (except for dev testing and checking my BB&T account since their online banking won't let you log on in Safari)

[Edited on February 24, 2009 at 4:51 PM. Reason : asdf]

2/24/2009 4:51:05 PM

^ yea BB&T needs to fix that. it's been that way for months now

I do like the awesome bar. While I'm an Opera nut, I'll admit that FF has the best of the two. I look forward to playing with the one in Safari

2/24/2009 5:00:38 PM

^yeah, it has! And I like how their website says they're working with Apple to resolve the issue. More like hire real developers who know what they're doing. Nobody else seems to have issues with user authentication in Safari

[Edited on February 24, 2009 at 5:13 PM. Reason : .]

2/24/2009 5:13:14 PM

One issue I have with Safari's awesome bar is that I can't type out 'TWW' and it bring up The wolf web since 'TWW' is in the document title.

but in FF3 you can.

2/24/2009 6:18:48 PM

shit I just upgraded to v4 and I forgot my Saft doesn't work

and the refresh button needs to be back with the back/fwd buttons

2/24/2009 7:55:45 PM

looks like Apple's internal benchmarks (which are usually quite, ummm..... optimistic) are pretty close to the truth.
Here are independent benchmarks of the JavaScript performance
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/0,39029471,49301219,00.htm


aaaaand with IE7


here are some tips for customizing Top Sites
http://arstechnica.com/apple/guides/2009/02/safari-4-focus-top-sites-browser-in-a-nutshell.ars

2/24/2009 8:10:37 PM

seriously...M$ should just admit defeat and get out of the game.

2/24/2009 8:11:40 PM

hmm i'm using minefield and the difference between it and safari is very negligible just as the graphs suggest

and that's with the extensions i want to get rid of ads and stuff - it's a no-brainer in my opinion unless safari can get some other edge over minefield

2/24/2009 8:59:22 PM

if safari had addons it'd now be my browser of choice

as-is, i'll wait

2/24/2009 9:03:12 PM

^^ there's adblock for safari too.

just trying out S4 for myself now on my Mac... initial impressions are that Apple fixed the things that drove me away in the first place. this is a very pleasant browsing experience. gmail loaded twice as fast as in FF3.

2/24/2009 9:58:53 PM

Quote :

"seriously...M$ should just admit defeat and get out of the game."

could you be any more of a fanboy? Last I checked, the beauty of our market economy is that, *gasp* market leaders change over time. With all the comments you could make, you continually make the most ignorant, retarded, waste of space ones possible.

I hate IE with a passion, but seriously, don't be a tard.

2/24/2009 10:32:05 PM

installed and playing with now.

tabs up top like chrome ftw. big pretty screens.. nice too, but i'm easy.

2/24/2009 10:44:46 PM

^^ wow.... since when did u become resident troll??

2/24/2009 10:49:17 PM

^^^did I hit a sore spot because you work for M$. Seriously dude, stfu already. The fact is Safari is far superior to IE. End of story.

Quote :

"seriously...M$ should just admit defeat and get out of the game."

there is nothing ignorant about that statement except perhaps the way you read it. M$ has absolutely no business in the internet browser business when there are browsers out there like FF, Safari, Chrome. The only reason why IE is so widely used is because it comes installed and setup as the default browser for Windows.

^^since he started working for M$ and takes personal offense for their shortcomings.

[Edited on February 24, 2009 at 11:01 PM. Reason : .]

2/24/2009 10:50:05 PM

I uninstalled it already

Until I can have my Saft I won't like it.

2/24/2009 10:53:29 PM

Am i retarded or do the tab cycle shortcuts not work?...

2/24/2009 10:58:51 PM

^ctrl-tab now and not command shift arrows

2/24/2009 11:02:32 PM

i'm still not sure i like everything about the new tab bar, especially with the placement... otherwise i'm loving it in os x. not too hot on the windows version, but what else is new

2/24/2009 11:15:51 PM

can't middle click to close a tab

that's enough for me to move back to FF

2/24/2009 11:18:57 PM

Ctrl+W

2/24/2009 11:23:17 PM

^^middle click? I'm assuming youre using the windows version. My middle click opens up dashboard. and cmd+middle click opens up spaces.

2/24/2009 11:27:56 PM

Quote :

"seriously...M$ should just admit defeat and get out of the game."

So what you're saying is that due to the new release of a browser that has a ~8% marketshare, the browser with the ~67% should bow out?

Well, that's just silly.

[Edited on February 24, 2009 at 11:34 PM. Reason : Using numbers from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers]

2/24/2009 11:32:17 PM

^I covered that point already, Stein.

Just because it has the market share doesn't make it the best or even a good browser at all. The fact of the matter is...that large percentage is a combination of large businesses/hospitals/etc that don't want to upgrade from IE6. Because doing so would mean a huge investment of resources to test and support other browsers for all their internal tools. The other part of it is the novice uninformed user who just uses what comes pre-packaged with his/her OS.

So if Chrome for example came pre-packaged with windows and not IE then you'd see those exact same numbers in Chrome's favor.

and what I said has nothing to do with Safari 4. I've been saying that since the days of FireFox 2.

[Edited on February 24, 2009 at 11:45 PM. Reason : .]

2/24/2009 11:43:41 PM

Regardless of the reasons, share is share.

There are plenty of reasons to be mad, upset, disappointed by it, but at the end of the day, that's the story and there's no way they're going to walk away from it.

2/24/2009 11:54:10 PM

I didn't say they will, i said they should. big difference.

2/24/2009 11:55:26 PM

Golovko jizzing all over himself in a thread about a new release from Apple

That's a surprise

2/25/2009 12:04:36 AM

^you obviously didn't read the thread. GG though.

2/25/2009 12:14:01 AM

i just noticed the radically different title bar/tabs. this will take some thought cycles to process

2/25/2009 12:37:06 AM

Quote :

"there is nothing ignorant about that statement except perhaps the way you read it. M$ has absolutely no business in the internet browser business when there are browsers out there like FF, Safari, Chrome. The only reason why IE is so widely used is because it comes installed and setup as the default browser for Windows."

You're "internet slang" spelling of M$ in and of itself is childish and ignorant.

Microsoft (and any other company) has business in any space they can make a profit in. That's capitalism plain and simple. As you completely missed my point, I'm not saying IE is great, or even good. I'm saying it's absolutely stupid to proclaim "Company X should quit a market because Company Y released a better product".

It's funny how shortsighted you are. Internet explorer 4 and 5 were THE best browsers of their time. This ran a span of over 6 YEARS. It had nothing to do with being bundled. It's only competition from 1998-2004 was Netscape and Opera, both of which were woefully inferior in performance and capabilities (even with better standards compliance). Let's not forget that Apple shipped IE with MacOS for years.

Now, by your own logic, Netscape should have quit. They had an inferior, slower, bloated, unprofitable product. Instead, they spun off the code into Mozilla, which spawned Firefox. It took more than 5 years to do it, but the result of STAYING IN THE GAME was a browser that rivaled and eventually bested the industry leader.

Opera has a similar story, having a lackluster browser in competition with IE, they still continually developed their product and found new industry opportunities (mobile + embedded licensing) because they STAYED IN THE GAME.

Safari is based on KDE's Konqueror browser. It took KDE nearly 8 years to develop the KHTML engine to be competitive with it's Windows competition. And today it's replaced by Firefox in many distributions. It took Apple a year of forked work to release the first beta of Safari, and another two years before Safari (2.0) was released and really became a contender to Firefox on the mac, and it took them five years to get a Windows version on the market, which was plagued with security issues, bugs, and horrid performance. It wasn't until LAST YEAR that Safari was finally a stable, complete competitor on the Windows platform.

So yes, you are being seriously ignorant. Shut the hell up, and go back to playing with Dreamweaver

[Edited on February 25, 2009 at 2:26 AM. Reason : .]

2/25/2009 2:24:36 AM

Quote :

"^^middle click? I'm assuming youre using the windows version. My middle click opens up dashboard. and cmd+middle click opens up spaces."

really? That was the first thing I disabled when I turned on my mac. Now my middle click behaves like a proper middle mouse button.

Also, Noen works for M$ lol... Oh well, ya gotta pay the bills somehow I reckon

2/25/2009 7:29:15 AM

Quote :

"middle click? I'm assuming youre using the windows version"

i'm using a mac. i have a VX Revolution that has it's own action mapping tool, i could probably use it to get middle click to close tabs in safari, but it's not worth the hassle since firefox already does it, plus the other things i'm used to with FF

Quote :

"You're "internet slang" spelling of M$ in and of itself is childish and ignorant."

noen's right. and that fact alone is enough to convince me to ignore anything else you might have to say.

[Edited on February 25, 2009 at 10:55 AM. Reason : noen's right anyways.]

2/25/2009 10:53:32 AM

Noen is right about the M$ ridiculousness, but he is wrong when it comes to basic grammar!

2/25/2009 11:00:09 AM

Quote :

"You're "internet slang" spelling of M$ in and of itself is childish and ignorant."

I'm sorry but I stopped reading after You're


Seriously, your panties are in a wad because I wrote M$ instead of Microsoft? M$ has been used for a long time...i hope you don't actually think I came up with that.

[Edited on February 25, 2009 at 11:19 AM. Reason : .]

2/25/2009 11:17:32 AM