Original article here:
http://www.hometownannapolis.com/news/opn/2009/06/14-47/Guest-Column-The-cost-of-a-diverse-Naval-Academy.html

(emphasis mine)

Cliff's Notes for those too lazy to read:
1: Diversity, rather than producing high-quality Naval/Marine officers, is now the "number one priority" at the USNA.
2: White students who are not admitted to play sports must score at least 600+ on each portion of the SAT and have mostly As or Bs (a C is considered disqualifying) to be considered. Leadership and other extra-curricular stuff is usually necessary as well.
3: Minority students -- anyone not white -- can get much lower grades and SAT scores and are almost automatically accepted.

Quote :

"Guest Column: The cost of a diverse Naval Academy By BRUCE FLEMING Published 06/14/09 The Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Gary Roughead announced in Annapolis recently that "diversity is the number one priority" at the Naval Academy. The Naval Academy superintendent, Vice Adm. Jeffrey Fowler, echoed him. Everyone understands that "diversity" here means nonwhite skins. Fowler insisted recently that we needed to have Annapolis graduates who "looked like" the Fleet, where enlisted people are about 42 percent nonwhite, largely African American and Hispanic. The stunning revelation last week was that the Naval Academy had an incoming class that was "more diverse" than ever before: 35 percent minority. Sounds good, only this comes with a huge price tag. It's taxpayers who bankroll the military. Yet nobody has asked us if we're willing to pay this price. Instead we're being told there is no price to pay at all. If you believe that, you probably also believe in the Tooth Fairy. A "diverse" class does not mean the Naval Academy recruits violinists, or older students (they can't be 23 on Induction Day), or gay people (who are thrown out) or foreign students (other than the dozen or so sent by client governments). It means applicants checked a box on their application that says they are Hispanic, African American, Native American, and now, since my time on the Admissions Board of the Academy, where I've taught for 22 years, Asians. Midshipmen are admitted by two tracks. White applicants out of high school who are not also athletic recruits typically need grades of A and B and minimum SAT scores of 600 on each part for the Board to vote them "qualified." Athletics and leadership also count. A vote of "qualified" for a white applicant doesn't mean s/he's coming, only that he or she can compete to win the "slate" of up to 10 nominations that (most typically) a Congress(wo)man draws up. That means that nine "qualified" white applicants are rejected. SAT scores below 600 or C grades almost always produce a vote of "not qualified" for white applicants. Not so for an applicant who self-identifies as one of the minorities who are our "number one priority." For them, another set of rules apply. Their cases are briefed separately to the board, and SAT scores to the mid-500s with quite a few Cs in classes (and no visible athletics or leadership) typically produce a vote of "qualified" for them, with direct admission to Annapolis. They're in, and are given a pro forma nomination to make it legit. Minority applicants with scores and grades down to the 300s with Cs and Ds (and no particular leadership or athletics) also come, though after a remedial year at our taxpayer-supported remedial school, the Naval Academy Preparatory School. By using NAPS as a feeder, we've virtually eliminated all competition for "diverse" candidates: in theory they have to get a C average at NAPS to come to USNA, but this is regularly re-negotiated. All this is probably unconstitutional. That's what the Supreme Court said about the University of Michigan's two-track admissions in 2003. Once at Annapolis, "diverse" midshipmen are over-represented in our pre-college classes, in lower-track courses, in mandatory tutoring programs and less challenging majors. Many struggle to master basic concepts. (I teach some of these courses.) Of course, some minority students are stellar, but they're the exception. Despite being dragged toward the finish line, minorities graduate at about a 10 percent lower rate than the whole class, which of course includes them (so the real split is greater). Don't want to believe me? Have a lawyer sit in on a year's worth of Admissions Board deliberations. Or better still, pray that one of the stellar white students rejected to give a seat to a "diverse" candidate sues us. That's the only way taxpayers will ever fully understand the price to them of "putting diversity first." The writer is an English professor at the Naval Academy."

[Edited on June 17, 2009 at 3:12 PM. Reason : ]

6/17/2009 3:05:10 PM

it's called affirmative action. it's not exactly a new concept. i'm sure there are threads around here that can shed some light.

6/17/2009 3:06:17 PM

Being a navy vet, the guy who shot up the Holocaust Museum actually went to the Naval Academy to bitch about this a few weeks prior.

6/17/2009 3:10:04 PM

I'm feeling this is bad news for the Navy and Marines, as it means there's a good possibility some of the people coming from the USNA might not be as high caliber as in the past.


I'm also a bit pissed for a personal reason -- I applied to USNA in high school at met all the standards, and was found to be "fully qualified", with a Congressional Nomination. I made it to the last cut, but wasn't accepted. To think that someone who was less qualified might have gotten in instead of me, due to their ethnicity or skin color, really irks me.

6/17/2009 3:12:53 PM

affirmative action = "positive" discrimination = racism

USNA has racist policies. They shouldn't. Period.

[Edited on June 17, 2009 at 3:29 PM. Reason : ]

6/17/2009 3:29:43 PM

Quote :

"To think that someone who was less qualified might have gotten in instead of me, due to their ethnicity or skin color, really irks me."

To think that someone might be less qualified because of ethnicity or skin color might really irks me

6/17/2009 3:34:51 PM

^That's not at all what he implied.

6/17/2009 3:56:03 PM

Quote :

" To think that someone might be less qualified because of ethnicity or skin color might really irks me "

Are you trolling, or are you really that stupid?

...

Here is a crazy idea. How about the board that determines if candidates are qualified or not, not know the ethnicity of the applicants. Strange concept.

The problem just isn't at the academies though. "Minority" officers and enlisted are, and have been, preferentially promoted within all the Armed Forces.

6/17/2009 4:30:20 PM

^^^you complain about people race-baiting you, but here you are twisting someone's words and race-baiting away.

It's entirely possible that one year they could have a class of absolutely stellar minority applicants, but the article states that this generally isn't happening and through affirmative action we're paying for under-qualified minority applicants to be trained to run two branches of our military. The only fair fix to this would be to not allow the selection board to know the race of the applicants. That way there could be no charges of racial preference, and the most qualified applicants would be admitted.

[Edited on June 17, 2009 at 4:32 PM. Reason : .]

6/17/2009 4:32:34 PM

Quote :

"To think that someone might be less qualified because of ethnicity or skin color might really irks me "

Read it again -- I'm saying that I'm mad someone who was less qualified than I was might have been let in instead of me, just because they don't happen to be white.

As an hypothetical -- let's make a comparison between myself and a random black guy: I have better grades, SAT score, leadership, extra-curriculars, etc....he has lower grades and a lower SAT score and no leadership training but gets let in simply because the standards are lower for admitting non-whites...meaning he was let in simply due to his ethnicity/race. On the other hand, had he been the one who had the higher scores and was admitted (and I was not) I wouldn't have any issues with that...as long as race is not a factor.

I was in no way implying that people who aren't white are less qualified.


The Naval Academy is there to produce highly-skilled Naval and Marine Corps officers -- you'd think they would want the best of the best. Last time I checked they take in approximately 1,400 people per year -- why not just take the top scoring 1,400 people who apply?

6/17/2009 4:35:30 PM

Quote :

"why not just take the top scoring 1,400 people who apply?"

...because that's not how affirmative action works.

6/17/2009 4:42:30 PM

I agree charles. Unfortunately as long as we have AA people may assume that a minority isnt as good bc he wouldnt have qualified to be there if it wasnt for these programs. As opposed to just having ONE set of standards and noone would question anyones validity of being there. Ive had patients (a handful, for failboat since he likes numbers) tell me that they wont see a minority doctor bc they dont know if they really made the grades. While I dont share this view, I can certainly understand it.

AA should die a quick death. Having different rules based on skin color is never a good idea.

[Edited on June 17, 2009 at 5:27 PM. Reason : .]

6/17/2009 5:26:54 PM

The initial article doesn't mention anything about what happens after admission.

I'd assume, like anywhere else, if they can't cut it, they have to drop out.

Which means this type of reasoning is completely wrong:

Quote :

"I'm feeling this is bad news for the Navy and Marines, as it means there's a good possibility some of the people coming from the USNA might not be as high caliber as in the past. "

Just because someone gets in doesn't mean they can get out.

Quote :

"Quote : "why not just take the top scoring 1,400 people who apply?" ...because that's not how affirmative action works."

LOL are you one of those people who thinks test scores tell the whole story?

[Edited on June 17, 2009 at 8:40 PM. Reason : ]

6/17/2009 8:38:55 PM

I think he's probably referring to scores as in how admissions are graded, not necessarily SAT or EOG scores. In a lot of admissions, you get "points" for extra curricular activities, grades, test scores, etc, and probably physical fitness and such for the Navy. He's arguing that you should base it solely off of points for those things, and not +2 points for minority or +2 for female.

6/17/2009 9:15:28 PM

Quote :

"Just because someone gets in doesn't mean they can get out."

True, but don't act like there are no consequences to the dropout. This is why AA is not just unfair to whites, in this example, but also horribly screws over a number of recipients of it.

When I applied (and was fully accepted...then turned down 2 weeks before Plebe Summer for medical reasons) they warned that if you did not finish your 4 years there, you would owe them the cost of tuition for each semester you were there. And as I recall, that amount was more than any Ivy League school (like $60K+ a year). It's free if you graduate, but if you leave, they have you by the balls.

Even at a normal school, you burden underqualified minorities with years of student debt, and none of the earning ability the degree would have given them, by admitting them in places where they don't belong.

And not only that, even if they do graduate, because the lesser quality of their ethnic peers is so well-known, it is more difficult for them to gain respect from people who would suspect the only thing they offer is color. Beyond that, knowing this system works in their favor, the brightest minorities would then question their own self-worth or how much they really earned their own qualifications. This whole thing is wrong on so many levels.

[Edited on June 17, 2009 at 9:18 PM. Reason : a]

6/17/2009 9:16:23 PM

Quote :

"Even at a normal school, you burden underqualified minorities with years of student debt, and none of the earning ability the degree would have given them, by admitting them in places where they don't belong. "

AA doesn't exist because the minorities are inherently lesser than whites. It's because of the understanding that you can't get an accurate measure of someone's potential from metrics that are heavily biased to someone's background circumstances. IOW, just because a minority may not have the same qualifications doesn't mean they are incapable of achieving in the academy.

You would have to look at graduation rates to really see where the opportunities for improvement in the system are.

But there's not really any reasonable data that can be gained just by looking at the admissions standards.

6/17/2009 9:27:46 PM

"White Supremacist Suspected in Holocaust." quoth google blog search.

6/18/2009 1:27:57 AM

So the Naval Academy is just like every institution in America ever.

6/18/2009 1:35:09 AM

Quote :

"AA doesn't exist because the minorities are inherently lesser than whites. It's because of the understanding that you can't get an accurate measure of someone's potential from metrics that are heavily biased to someone's background circumstances. IOW, just because a minority may not have the same qualifications doesn't mean they are incapable of achieving in the academy. You would have to look at graduation rates to really see where the opportunities for improvement in the system are. But there's not really any reasonable data that can be gained just by looking at the admissions standards."

Then here's an interesting challenge for you....find one college or university where minority students graduate at a rate greater than or equal to their non-minority counterparts. The length of time that search will require makes it plain that they ARE less qualified on average, and get admitted into places they don't belong (not where their race doesn't belong....but where their stupid doesn't belong).

Grades, SAT scores, classes taken, leadership in activities, etc. are all very good barometers of potential for future success. Sure there are exceptions. I know plenty of them. But, as an admissions officer, you'd need to have a damn good, documentable reason to hold the white guy's success against him in favor of the black guy's ever-elusive "potential."

I'll knock one college off your search list, since you evidently didn't read the OP:

Quote :

"Of course, some minority students are stellar, but they're the exception. Despite being dragged toward the finish line, minorities graduate at about a 10 percent lower rate than the whole class, which of course includes them (so the real split is greater)."

[Edited on June 18, 2009 at 6:02 AM. Reason : s]

6/18/2009 6:00:17 AM

didn't you know? the best way to fix the effects of discrimination is with more discrimination.

just like you can save a drowning person by throwing them water

6/18/2009 8:19:12 AM

Quote :

"LOL are you one of those people who thinks test scores tell the whole story?"

As someone who applied to the Naval Academy I will say that they take everything into account, not just test scores. They look at the 'whole person' (for lack of a better term) rather than just test scores...when I am talking about the "highest scoring people" I am talking about the conglomeration of everything in their application package.

First you fill out a pre-application ("Are you good enough to apply here?")
Then if you pass that you can fill out the actual application package, which includes your GPA, SAT scores, AP/honors classes, a physical fitness test that must be administered by a PE instructor at your high school, any leadership info, an essay, recommendations from your principal/vice-principal, etc.
You also have to go to the closest military installation and do a full physical to see if you are medically qualified ("Bend over and crack a smile!")
In the mean time you have to apply to both your state senators and your state representative -- each has their own application package.
At some point they'll also send down an academy representative to interview you in person.

Then if you are considered medically, physically, and scholastically qualified, you are deemed "fully qualified". I made it to this point along with ~1,900 other people, out of which they cut ~500 of us.


At least, that's how it was done back in 2004. I'm betting the process hasn't changed much.


I would hope that my explanation makes more sense than just taking test scores into account.

TULIPlovr is also correct. If I remember correctly you can do 2 years there and leave without incurring any financial penalty. If you decide to stay after your sophomore year and then quit right before graduation, you owed (again, this is my memory from 5 years ago) the Navy $250,000. I'm betting there aren't too many people going that route.

[Edited on June 18, 2009 at 11:52 AM. Reason : ]

6/18/2009 11:49:38 AM

^ that's the process I went through from 98-99

6/18/2009 7:30:50 PM

Quote :

"Then here's an interesting challenge for you....find one college or university where minority students graduate at a rate greater than or equal to their non-minority counterparts. The length of time that search will require makes it plain that they ARE less qualified on average, and get admitted into places they don't belong (not where their race doesn't belong....but where their stupid doesn't belong). Grades, SAT scores, classes taken, leadership in activities, etc. are all very good barometers of potential for future success. Sure there are exceptions. I know plenty of them. But, as an admissions officer, you'd need to have a damn good, documentable reason to hold the white guy's success against him in favor of the black guy's ever-elusive "potential.""

Why do you think minorities under perform?

6/19/2009 7:10:03 AM

Quote :

"Then here's an interesting challenge for you....find one college or university where minority students graduate at a rate greater than or equal to their non-minority counterparts. The length of time that search will require makes it plain that they ARE less qualified on average, and get admitted into places they don't belong (not where their race doesn't belong....but where their stupid doesn't belong). "

Your reasoning here is not logical, you are thinking too 1 dimensionally. Society, and moments in time, don't exist in vacuums.

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/media/storage/paper882/news/2004/01/21/News/Schools.Focus.On.Efforts.To.Recruit.Retain.Minorities.Students-2152777.shtml

Where do you think that purple bar was 20 or 30 years ago, and why do you think it was like that?

It's clearly not an issue of "stupidity," as you say. If it was, then the minorities are getting "smarter" at a much faster rate than whites or asians in America, and if the current trends continue, they are going to be a race of super-humans in another 10 years.

[Edited on June 19, 2009 at 10:51 AM. Reason : ]

6/19/2009 10:49:48 AM

i figured you were gonna get assraped for that one, dude... and you did

6/19/2009 5:08:35 PM

hahahaha, so....wait a minute. Group X sucks really bad. The University then pours a lot of time and resources into ensuring that Group X can stop sucking so bad. And, years later, Group X still sucks big time, but on a relative scale has made massive improvement relative to the folks they didn't focus on improving?

What does that prove? Nothing.

Of course I'll acknowledge these programs are improving black graduation rates massively, especially when compared to other groups. And it is the very fact that they are necessary, and that despite them the graduation gap is still huge, that precisely show my entire point - as a whole, black students admitted to good colleges, on average, a far less capable of serious academic success than those around them. More effort is poured into them by the university for much less return because the starting point was just too low.

Your graph shows jack-shit about the issue at hand.

This was your response to my belief that admitting students based on 'potential,' or 'diversity' was a sure-fire way to bring a university down.

Your graph shows that very clearly. The very fact that these ongoing minority improvement programs are so necessary proves my point. They do work, at least a little.

Even if you found a college that DID have higher minority graduation rates, it would not mean anything because that accomplishment would be ruined by this type of program, as far as admissions standards go.

The situation looks like this:

A) Throw a bunch of time and money and retention programs at the unqualified minority
AND
B) Don't do anything for the white guy.

You are saying that since policy A is starting to not suck so much relative to the success of program B, it shows that these minority students do, in fact, belong at the university? Are you serious?

[Edited on June 19, 2009 at 8:10 PM. Reason : a]

6/19/2009 8:04:46 PM

Quote :

"AA should die a quick death. Having different rules based on skin color is never a good idea."

Agreed.
Worse of all, it just perpetuates racism. With affirmative action, there's generations of minorities that didn't really "earn" what they achieved.
So, for the next few generations, racists can still claim, "hey, you didn't really earn that -- you needed an artificial leg-up...." This will just keep racism around for even longer.

The obvious solution is too make every admission completely color-blind.
I simply don't see how anyone can disagree with this.

6/19/2009 8:45:28 PM

The Naval Academy generally creates a bunch of dilusional toolbags anyway. People are seriously better off going to a regular college and learning social skills and the ability to interact with people.

6/20/2009 9:26:47 AM

I can only think of 2-3 Naval Acadamy officers I thought were good leaders.

There's was only one that I genuinely liked.

6/20/2009 9:30:16 AM

this thread needs more


[Edited on June 20, 2009 at 12:57 PM. Reason : sfsdf]

6/20/2009 12:55:50 PM

Wow, many people in this thread seem to think that the navy only wants the people who are the biggest nerds to become officers.

Typical ivory-tower academic bullshit, like the fag english teacher in the original article.

Turns out that the best officers are the ones who can get their charges to follow them, which has fuck all to do with GPA.

6/20/2009 2:55:33 PM

With the number of applications to USNA, they can easily afford to get people who can meet both criteria. And they're purposefully choosing not to do that. That IS a problem.

And enlisted men are particularly good at sniffing out officers who don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Even if they don't know anything about it themselves. I, for one, would have great difficulty respecting and following somebody whose ability to gather and analyze information was consistent with a 1000 SAT score.

[Edited on June 20, 2009 at 5:20 PM. Reason : a]

6/20/2009 5:16:48 PM

As a Naval Academy grad who has been paying a lot of attention to this, I believe there is a lot of misinformation contained in the article. I'd also like to preface that I fucking hated that place and still hate it to this day. I refuse to give any money to the alumni association or any school projects. I do, however, support the athletic association (being a Varsity athlete there was the only thing that kept me sane and enrolled).

First of all, Bruce Fleming has been a one man crusade to defame the administration of USNA since he got tenure. He knows that the government won't fire him, although he has done enough in the past that any college other than a service academy would have shit canned his ass more than a decade ago. Basically, he's a piece of shit...always has been, always will be. Using Fleming as the basis of an argument is heading directly for the lowest common denominator.

Secondly, the diversity initiative is on recruiting, not acceptance. The #1 focus of the program is to make USNA more well know among minority communities. There are plenty of minorities who do ROTC programs at top tier colleges and universities. A great deal of these don't know about USNA. Hell, as a white middle class male I never heard of Navy until my family visited Annapolis on summer vacation day trip from DC. USNA wants to make itself more well known in these minority communities to get a higher number of applicants. USNA is already growing it's application pool at a huge rate (apps were up 40% this year and at 15k had 5k more than USMA or USAFA), but they aren't seeing the same growth in minority applicants.

I could go on and on, but the more I realize this whole thread is built around Fleming's bullshit, the angrier I get. The new program has absolutely nothing to do with what happens at the admissions boards and everything to do with what happens before them.

[Edited on June 20, 2009 at 7:02 PM. Reason : .]

6/20/2009 6:54:28 PM

^yeah, just from reading his comments you could tell he was a academician tool with an agenda. Looks like he snagged some believers in this thread, though

[Edited on June 20, 2009 at 7:46 PM. Reason : .]

6/20/2009 7:46:29 PM

CharlesHF you could still get through in OCS or something, or have you moved on from USN aspirations?

6/21/2009 11:20:41 AM