Quote :

"Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Offers “Green” Undergraduate Concentration in Renewable Electric Energy Systems July 20, 2009 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE North Carolina State University’s Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering will offer a new undergraduate concentration in Renewable Electric Energy Systems within the Bachelor of Science Electrical Engineering degree program starting this fall. The new concentration evolved to address the need to create a national power system capable of integrating geographically distributed renewable energy and advanced storage systems that will interface with the existing electric utility systems to serve the country’s future electric energy demands. The Renewable Electric Energy Systems concentration will be open for enrollment to both new and current undergraduate students majoring in the Electrical Engineering degree program. The new concentration enriches the current electrical engineering curriculum with coursework in electromechanical energy conversion, renewable electric power systems, power electronics, and power transmission and distribution systems. Last fall the National Science Foundation (NSF) provided funding for the establishment of an Engineering Research Center (ERC) and created the Future Renewable Electric Energy Delivery and Management (FREEDM) Systems Center at North Carolina State University. One of the center’s key responsibilities is to educate a diverse group of adaptive, creative, globally connected and innovative graduates for the green energy industry through a continuum of educational programs that span from middle school through the doctoral level. “We are thrilled to start offering an undergraduate concentration in Renewable Electric Energy,” said FREEDM Systems Center College Education Program Director Dr. Mesut Baran. “Students who complete this concentration will have a working knowledge of current and emerging electric power generation technologies such as photovoltaic arrays, wind turbines and fuel cells along with understanding how to conduct system impact studies to assess the interconnection requirements for a given renewable electrical energy generation system.” Currently efforts are underway for large-scale utilization of Distributed Renewable Energy Resources (DRER) to significantly increase the use of renewable sources (solar, wind, geo-thermal, hydro, and ocean tidal) to break the nations heavy dependence on carbon based fuel. The widespread use of DRER at the residential level is a major paradigm shift for the electric power industry, moving away from today’s centralized power generation paradigm to one of distributed generation. It is widely recognized by both the electric utilities and the policy makers that for this to happen, the current power grid must be revised considerable to be more “smart”. For additional program enrollment information please contact Amy Bailey, Education Coordinator at (919) 513-3435 or ahbailey@ncsu.edu. For Renewable Electric Energy Systems undergraduate curriculum information please visit http://www.ncsu.edu/uap/academic-standards/RR/curricula/engineering/14eer.html."

Didn't see a thread for this. Wondering what TWWers' thoughts were on the subject.
From what I can tell, it looks like the current Power Systems concentration with 4 new electives.

7/21/2009 12:50:00 PM

I'm going back to grad school specifically for this, though I wasn't aware they were offering this concentration for the undergrads.

7/21/2009 12:55:18 PM

i'm an ME undergrad nearing the end of my second internship with an electric utility and i worked on an undergrad research team messing around with residential wind turbine stuff last semester

this is good stuff imo. from what i've seen, we have plenty of mechanical technologies, but we seem to be lacking in the electrical technologies to make them viable. the FREEDM center does some cool stuff too.

also, that major is chock full of buzzwords. you're sure to land some sweet research stuff with something like that on your resume.

7/21/2009 12:56:06 PM

that's pretty nifty

7/21/2009 12:58:11 PM

I'm pretty sure I'm going to take it, if for nothing more than to stay in college an extra semester.

7/21/2009 12:59:36 PM

NC State hasn't had shit for a power systems curriculum in a while. It's about time they did something like this. I would have gladly taken more courses on distributed generation or distribution systems in general instead of finishing off my electives with controls classes.

7/21/2009 1:02:13 PM

sweet

7/21/2009 1:23:06 PM

I am a Renewable Energy Engineer. It's excellent to see the school producing a program such as this, I just wish they had it when I attended.

7/21/2009 4:14:51 PM

Good. Now team up with some MBAs to actually make this stuff affordable on the consumer market. The geothermal system for the house we are building (not renewable, but close enough) is costing 3x the cost of a conventional system and we've estimated a solar system would cost $30,000 to put into place. Tax incentives are good, but still good fork the cash up front.

On a serious note, is the curriculum more residential, commercial, or industrial focused?

[Edited on July 21, 2009 at 8:09 PM. Reason : .]

7/21/2009 8:09:35 PM

You don't need any of that. As energy prices get higher, more competitors will come in to the market to make the solar and wind generators we want to purchase at a lower price. Sprinkle in the ever advancing technologies making everything more efficient and easier to produce, and voila, the market will be made.

The question is, do we give out the money to get those advances sooner, or do we continue to pay the Middle East tax (funneled through and skimmed by Goldman Sachs and other gamers of the oil market) on our way to ever higher fuel prices waiting for the capital markets to figure it out.

7/21/2009 8:32:19 PM

I've had a couple of questions via PM about R.E. systems. If you have questions regarding Geothermal, Solar (PV or SHW), Wind, or any other technologies, visit http://www.saponagreen.com. We can answer any questions you have regarding residential R.E. systems and sustainability within your home.

Be careful when using PVWatts or any other consumer based solar calculator. There are many programs and incentives to reduce initial costs and increase ROI for all systems. R.E. is a great investment for homeowners and will generally return 9-14% on SHW, PV, and wind.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 8:50 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 8:51 AM. Reason : ..]

7/22/2009 8:47:57 AM

^how do you expect us to take you seriously? that there are several engineers on this board that work in this field as well, and they will flat out tell you that the only system that will ever pay for itself in NC currently is a geothermal unit. PV is only cost effective in states with retarded REC in-state requirements like New Jersey. there is absolutely no return on investment with them in NC.

7/22/2009 8:56:20 AM

I love it how weve been asking for about 3 other 'labled' concentrations for several years and they bring this out from scratch, when the others have been established for years.
While I like the FREEDM center and think its doing a lot of good, this is what happens when you get a shit ton of money. Problem is its mostly a research track degree, which is good, but right now isnt going anywhere except in research.

7/22/2009 10:08:21 AM

Eleusis:

While that may be true for some states, NC features a 35% income tax credit, which added to a 30% Fed tax credit and other privately funded incentives, creates a sound investment. I urge you to speak from your own experience, not others. If you think there is no return on PV or SHW, then you should speak with those who have these resources on their home. Payback on PV is about 9-11 years with a system life of 20 years. The average returns on the systems range from 9-12%, depending on size, initial investment, and financing.

MY: The degree they announced will bring big bucks to the university for research. Many analysts believe the industry is poised to launch at the return of a stable economy. It sounds like the new program will be focused on creating research positions in the signal conditioning and generation field. (inverters, motors, etc.) I think one of the big reasons this happened is because of Dr. Baliga being here. His work with the IGBT has had a significant impact on this industry.

7/22/2009 10:38:09 AM

Quote :

"Payback on PV is about 9-11 years"

better hope your company doesn't decide they need you in another city anytime within the decade

7/22/2009 10:44:50 AM

Quote :

"Payback on PV is about 9-11 years with a system life of 20 years."

there is no payback on a PV system. ever. period. quit reading from your sales pamphlet. I am speaking from my own experience on this, because I have actually seen the meter readings for solar panel interconnects after years of service and have seen the $10,000 a kW installation costs. You won't see a return on investment until the installation price drops to about 2/3rds of what it currently is or when the RECs for solar hit the 4 figure mark like that have in New Jersey.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 11:14 AM. Reason : you might want to mention how those credits can mysteriously vanish after a year also]

7/22/2009 11:10:52 AM

No payback? It seems to me like when I invest cash into something, and get a check in the mail for my investment, that is a return. As far as RECs go, when you sell your RECs, they're sold. There is currently not a great amount of REC trading right now, but you can be assured the government is trying to determine how they should be traded. There are private funds which 'rent' your RECs by purchasing your energy and selling it to P.E. or Co-ops so they can meet their R.E. production requirements.

And seeing the meter readings is one thing, but keep in mind when those systems were installed, PV was more than the $8.50/DCwatt it is today. Prices for racking, modules, inverters, labor, permitting, etc... have dropped dramatically.

The only 'hitch' to these systems and getting your money back is that you have to have enough fed and state tax liability to claim the percentage you can get back. Without state, fed, and private incentives, PV will not pay back.

7/22/2009 11:27:27 AM

Quote :

"No payback? It seems to me like when I invest cash into something, and get a check in the mail for my investment, that is a return."

when you put money into something and never get your initial money back out of the system, then you made a shitty investment. Even with the systems available today, there is no return on your initial investment. the only people who would tell you otherwise are the people trying to install these things.

Quote :

"PV was more than the $8.50/DCwatt it is today. Prices for racking, modules, inverters, labor, permitting, etc... have dropped dramatically. "

did you even read my statement about $10,000/kW that I made earlier? even at that price, the systems are a ripoff. you'll get about 1300kwH per kW installed, and you'll get about $0.10 per kWh. you're also paying about $3.50 a month to the utility for your the additional meter connection that is required by law, so by the end of the year you're not even making $100 a year for each kW of generation you have connected. even if you get enough tax incentives to cut the installation cost in half to $5,000 a kW, you're looking at needing over fifty years to get a return on your investment without even considering the money you could have made with that investment if you'd have left it in a savings account with a garbage interest rate.

I don't know where you're getting this shit about a lack of REC trading going on. Most of the utilities I've talked to are about to piss themselves over their lack of available RECs, and most of the people who actually install these systems won't offer to sell them off. The only reason anyone is contemplating PV systems is because they see us going towards a mandatory NC solar requirement similar to what New Jersey has. When that happens, the Solar RECs will sell for around a dollar per kWh on top of the $0.10 per kWh that is already being collected for the energy production, and the systems will pay for themselves in a matter of years. Unfortunately, the economic model for this is unsustainable, and eventually the REC money will get dropped. When that happens, the only people who will have made money on the systems are the people who had the foresight to see this coming ahead of time and were able to capitalize on the overinflated REC pricing for several years.

7/22/2009 1:42:07 PM

Where does the 8.50 figure come from? Aren't panels mfg'able at $1 per watt now?

Also, I'm not following your $100 per year calculation, where does that come from?

7/22/2009 2:09:22 PM

the $100 a year comes from an assumption of 1300kWh a year being generated per kW of installed generation capacity. That's about typical for this area. If you assume that the cost of a kWh is approximately $0.10 (you check your power bill to verify this is a reasonable assumption), then this means you are getting paid 1300kWh * $0.10 /kWh = $130 a year for the energy you generate. However, you are required to have a separate meter for your solar panels upstream from the existing meter to your house so that the utility can determine how much renewable energy you are generating. Most utilities charge $3.50 a month for this meter to pay for their equipment. That is $43 a year being subtracted from your $130 in revenue on your statement. When it's all said and done, you're only getting ~$87 a year for each kW of generation capacity you installed on your house.

keep in mind that the 1300kWh in generation assumes that your panels are mounted at an optimum angle in an unobstructed area. If your roof doesn't face south or has a sub-optimum pitch, your actual generation will be less.

7/22/2009 3:21:10 PM

is that $10k/kW install price including federal/state rebates and subsidies? There are some pretty good rebates here in California for residential solar systems.

7/22/2009 3:44:43 PM

lolifornia

7/22/2009 3:45:37 PM

Quote :

"Where does the 8.50 figure come from? Aren't panels mfg'able at $1 per watt now? "

I can't speak for where his numbers are coming from, but manufacturing costs haven't hit $1 a watt yet from anyone that's actually selling panels. A more realistic material cost is roughly $5 per watt for the panels alone. The rest of the cost is tied up in labor to install them and the labor and materials to install the inverter, breaker panel, and controllers for handling the anti-islanding requirements of a DG system.

7/22/2009 3:49:55 PM

i concur with eleusis

7/22/2009 3:56:16 PM

$10/watt installed is a general estimate to give to consumers. The systems I have spec'd so far are coming to around $8.50/DCwatt, commissioned (labor, wiring, racking, everything). The $1/DCwatt has been done, but it's sold out for the next 2-3 years. The catch there is that they make it for $1 and sell it for $2, then it's distributed at $2.50. It's 30% off of the average $3.25/DCwatt of standard mono or poly modules - a good deal but not revolutionary. Also, I think those modules are low-efficiency (they're thin-film, around 5-7%).

E: This will be my last response for you. If you don't like solar, don't invest. Your facts aren't 100% straight. Your numbers come from Net-metering (likely the best option for a 1kW system). In a net metering system, you don't have to pay for the additional meter (don't need it, just need to use more than it produces), nor do you even need an AC Disconnect (new reg this year). The system you checked was likely older or improperly designed/installed, so please stop comparing it to newer systems.

The only req't is that the inverter be UL 1741 listed. The purpose of net-metering is to displace *some* of your electricity usage from your home, not offset.

NC has Sell-All metering available where electricity is sold at $0.205/kWh and purchased normally through RES or TOU (for residential sites). Here, you make a considerable amount more, but must have a larger system, as you have to pay $3.21/month for the meter and $4/month to be a seller. Generally, the min. size is around 3kW to have a decent return.

7/22/2009 4:16:27 PM

Quote :

"This will be my last response for you. If you don't like solar, don't invest. Your facts aren't 100% straight. Your numbers come from Net-metering "

this won't be my last response to you. your facts are 100% sales pitch. Your numbers are coming out of your ass. You show me anything resembling a payback mechanism for PV installations, and maybe I'll buy into your rhetoric. I won't be holding my breath for a response though, since I've already shown you the math for why it doesn't work.

regarding not needing to install a second meter - are you fucking stupid? do you not understand the whole concept of RECs? The ONLY way PV will pay for itself is when the RECs kick in.

I love solar energy. I think it's the way of the future. Unfortunately, that future in solar will be through parabolic trough systems and sterling dish systems. Solar Panels on distributed generation systems are nothing more than a liability to the integrity of our national grid. They don't produce enough electricity to pay for themselves, and they fuck up coordination studies on our distribution systems.

how are you claiming that you don't have to install a disconnect? there is not a utility in this country that will let you install a distributed generation facility and tie into their system without a disconnect. It's an anti-islanding requirement that is necessary to protect linemen and service personnel.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 4:41 PM. Reason : distributed]

7/22/2009 4:40:19 PM

Your posts are becoming hostile and that's why I won't answer them anymore. Maintain a certain level of professionalism if you want my responses. Contact me directly if you want to discuss.

If you haven't heard of UL 1741, then you are not up to date on the technology, current standard practices, or code. UL-1741 is an anti-islanding feature built into inverters so that no electricity is put to the grid when the grid is shutdown. There are other technical operatives, if you want to learn them, get a copy of the 2008 NEC Codebook. I think section 17 covers Solar.

If you really want to learn, I'd be happy to educate you on solar technology. I speak with policy makers from Progress Energy, NCSC, and many legislator's representatives on a regular basis and have an excellent grasp on policies, requirements, and code. Additionally, I attend regular training on new technologies and installation techniques.

7/22/2009 4:58:38 PM

wtf happened to my thread

7/22/2009 4:59:53 PM

Quote :

"I can't speak for where his numbers are coming from, but manufacturing costs haven't hit $1 a watt yet from anyone that's actually selling panels."

First Solar. But it's entirely possible that $1/watt figure is for large commercial scale installations.

Ok, so this calculator is hung off of the saponagreen.com site from above, and it seems to be inclusive of much stuff including replacement cost of the inverter in year 15 and having to take out a 30 year loan at 6.5% for the install.

http://estimator.solar-estimate.org/index.php

Breakeven looks like 9 years, then you make money, but you need a hefty amount of tax credits for this to happen and this is at $9/watt installed. I used 1163 kwh per month, which is the average I just computed for the last year at my place.

I'd love to see you critique that, and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way.


[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 5:10 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2009 5:06:17 PM

Again, you have to be careful with these calculators, (this is being deleted off of the site as soon as our marketing guy finishes the new Renewable Energy section). These calcs don't take into affect your roof shape, orientation, shading, or component efficiencies. What it does do is provide consumers a ball-park estimate of what a solar system does. You should contact a local installer to provide a detailed site analysis (including energy consumption) with a recommended system and financial analysis.

7/22/2009 5:16:14 PM

Quote :

"Maintain a certain level of professionalism if you want my responses. Contact me directly if you want to discuss. "

I'm hostile because I provided reputable data to back up my statements, yet you keep on talking like some know-it-all douchebag without backing up any of your statements. you think we actually buy this bullshit about you speaking with policy makers and such? you're a fucking year out of college. I've been in this industry for a decade, and I've been meeting with equipment manufacturers, utility engineering and operations managers, and administrative personnel for just as long. I don't take kindly to some piss-ant salesmen trying to lie about the numbers and blow me off as not being up to date on the topic.

you can say whatever you want about UL 1471, but that doesn't negate IEEE 1547, NFPA 70E and the requirements for a disconnect switch. The state of North Carolina may be one of a handful of states that was dumb enough to waive the UEDS requirement, but the utilities themselves are still denying connections to people that don't include separate anti-islanding equipment and an additional disconnect switch available to the utility for lockout-tagout procedures. One great example is Piedmont EMC. They probably have more requests than any other utility in this state for PV installations, and they require a separate disconnect switch for the PV system. They've caught a lot of shit over this from people like you, but the fact of the matter is that they can't meet the requirements of the NFPA 70E without one.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 6:04 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2009 6:03:38 PM

Quote :

"I'd love to see you critique that, and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way. "

I don't know if I was using the same settings you were, but the thing entered in over half of the payoff coming from NC Greenpower incentives to make the system pay for itself. NC Greenpower has only been around for about 6 years, and the incentives program could potentially disappear overnight considering how shitty our economy is currently. NC Greenpower has already started reducing the rate they're paying for PV generation installed in years past, and we'll probably start seeing that well dry up even quicker as people run out of money to pay for carbon offsets. We've watched our federal renewable energy production tax credits lapse three times in the past 10 years and almost lapse an additional two times, so it's risky to make economic assumptions about the NC Greenpower incentives being a done deal.

You also have to sell your RECs to NC Greenpower. I'm not sure of any contractual agreements you have to make to them regarding maintenance and such after you do that.

You would also need a substantial amount of tax liability for the model I looked at for the system to pay off. This probably isn't that big of a deal for most people installing small systems, but it takes away any incentive to install a system of any decent size. For instance, to install a system equivalent to 50% of my energy consumption, I'd need $23,000 worth of tax liability. While that might not be an issue for us, it probably is for many homeowners.

I didn't check their generation math in detail, but it looked like they assumed optimal azimuth angles for the roof and that the panels receive full sun throughout the day without obstructions from trees or hilltops.

[Edited on July 22, 2009 at 7:17 PM. Reason : generation calcs.]

7/22/2009 7:08:12 PM

Quote :

"sold at $0.205/kWh"

I want to see your source. You try that without contract, you'll be lucky to get $0.035/kWh.

7/22/2009 9:09:15 PM

I'm pretty sure he was trying to regurgitate something he didn't understand about time-of-use metering through Progress Energy. You pay an additional service fee of about $10 a month, and you get different rates depending on the time of day. The on-peak rate is around $0.17 per kWh, and the off-peak is about $0.06 per kWh. If you manage your energy consumption in the house through the use of programmable thermostats and smart use of appliances, you can save a decent amount of money. you can also seriously fuck up your electric bill and end up spending a lot more money if you don't manage your thermostat and appliance usage correctly.

7/22/2009 11:26:24 PM

$0.055/kWh from Progress Energy, avoided cost. Generally, this figure is signed on 5 or 10 year contracts. I think it includes inflation, but not increasing fuel costs.

$0.15/kWh from NCGreenPower, which includes rights to your Solar RECs as long as they purchase your energy. This is limited to a 10kW system, afterwards the rate is negotiable. This money is privately funded and the fund is pretty full right now, not expected to run out in the next 5 years including historical growth in the residential solar industry. At that point, it is expected that either P.E. will purchase your RECs or NCGP will be otherwise funded. This is an agreement, not a contract.

http://www.progress-energy.com/aboutenergy/rates/NC-CSP.pdf page 3

http://www.ncgreenpower.org/resources/

[Edited on July 23, 2009 at 1:57 PM. Reason : .]

7/23/2009 1:55:40 PM

^Yeah. Interning for a solar company in Charlotte. Biggest payback comes from Solar Thermal systems. Can get a return for your investment within 3-4 years with flat plat collectors.

Sencera is also a thin-film solar panel manufacteror that just opened in Charlotte, and after talking with some guys from there they think they can bring the cost of thin-film pretty low and they'll be locally made.

7/23/2009 10:44:36 PM

Technically, there's no return on SHW, you just save bundles. To have a return, you actually have to receive currency or assets. On that note, PE's new pilot program is studying the feasibility of purchasing RECs from residential and commercial SHW systems.

What systems do you install?

7/24/2009 10:36:15 AM

^I guess. I mean when we do a payback analysis taking into consideration inflation, investments, etc it's how long it takes your hot water savings to make up for the price of the system. You wouldn't call that a return? Just payback?

I've only been interning there for a couple months but they do everything from small residential pv/shw to multi-million dollar megawatt projects. Trying to get a project done in Greensboro right now. 3 megawatt PV install on top of the Greensboro USPS distribution center. Running into some issues with Duke right now. They're saying the infrastructure just isn't there to take all that back onto the grid.

-Do you use Retscreen at all? Found it pretty nifty.

http://www.retscreen.net/ang/home.php

[Edited on July 24, 2009 at 3:37 PM. Reason : .]

7/24/2009 3:34:33 PM

To have return on investment, you actually have to gain money (or assets). SHW is a payback. If you do the RETScreen on a Velox, Heliodyne, or SolarHOT system, you'll see net positive gain after the payback. At that point, that's just the money you've saved, not actual assets gained.

3MW is a large solar system; what kind of system did they propose?

I use RETScreen for the first analysis tool, then run what I think works best through the manufacturers' programs to double check.

7/24/2009 3:56:14 PM

^yeah i guess i wasn't thinking the difference between return and payback. Still learning a bunch. But yeah same here, retscreen first then usually manufacturers website for recommendations on mounting and panels. Usually go with Heliodyne for SHW. Sunpower or Sharp for PV. Our company also has a sister online retailer company. So we've got a bunch of stuff in our warehouse at all times. It's neat actually being able to see all the panels before they're installed.

http://argandenergy.com/www/index.php

http://www.innovativesolar.com/

Quote :

"3MW is a large solar system; what kind of system did they propose?"

They asked us to see how many they could fit on their roof. It's obviously a publicity thing. The return on that type of system would be non-existent. Right now the issue is with Duke and getting them to re-engineer the grid around the complex.

[Edited on July 24, 2009 at 4:07 PM. Reason : .]

7/24/2009 4:06:07 PM

Duke is going to make them pay for a new line all the way back to the substation if they want to connect 3MW. That's going to add quite a bit to the total. I'd estimate $300,000 plus another $200,000 for every mile you're located away from the substation. It will be more if the substation doesn't have a spare bay or the existing utilities are underground.

7/27/2009 12:07:15 PM