. . .some? For all?

Health Care Workers Protest Mandatory H1N1 Vaccination
September 29, 2009

Quote :

"Health care workers are planning to take to the streets Tuesday at a rally in front of the Albany, N.Y. state capitol to protest mandatory vaccination. The rally is intended to call for 'freedom of choice in vaccination and health care' and to protest mandatory vaccination for influenza and the H1N1 swine flu. 'This vaccine has not been clinically tested to the same degree as the regular flu vaccine,' Tara Accavallo, a registered nurse on Long Island, told Newsday. 'If something happens to me, if I get seriously injured from this vaccine, who's going to help me?' While physicians, nurses, and medical technicians may not be known for their willingness to march on state capitols, a recent New York Department of Health requirement has sparked an unusually intense response. The August 13 regulations say that all health care workers who 'could potentially expose patients' must be vaccinated for influenza by November 30 unless it would be 'detrimental' to the recipient's health. (Any reprieve would be temporary and last only until injection with the vaccine would 'no longer be detrimental.') This raises an obvious and important question: Under what circumstances can government officials order mandatory vaccination? And could the general public be ordered to roll up their sleeves for injections, even if there might be side effects beyond a sore arm or mild fever? The concern in New York also comes as skepticism of vaccination in general seems to be on the rise."

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/29/taking_liberties/entry5349581.shtml

This is a tough one. I won't be taking the H1N1 vaccine for the same reason listed in the article above: it has not been clinically tested for a long enough period of time for me.

But what about health-care workers? What if they're unknowingly infected with H1N1 and working around some with, say, compromised immune systems--or others? Where do the health-care workers' rights end and patients' rights begin?

9/29/2009 9:43:09 PM

I work in a doctor's office, and I'm pretty sure that the practice manager is going to have every practice member (nurse/doc/admin) vaccinated against both the seasonal flu and H1N1. I think if asked about it, she'd put the patients' health slightly above that of her employees. It's better for business.

9/29/2009 9:50:36 PM

This isn't a tough one.

9/29/2009 9:53:10 PM

^^ You have no concern for your safety injecting a vaccine that has a very short track record? Even though the '70s swine flu vaccine caused more problems than the disease itself?

^ Why, because you're an asshole?

9/29/2009 10:24:55 PM

^^ which side do you so obviously fall on?

I don't think it should even be a question, either, but you never know, people have some crazyass ideas around this forum.

[Edited on September 29, 2009 at 10:29 PM. Reason : ]

9/29/2009 10:28:22 PM

They should have to get the shot.

They're health employees. It's well within the power of hospitals to insist that their employees don't harm their customers.

9/29/2009 10:31:30 PM

I thought you meant everyone in general, not just healthcare workers.

If we're just talking healthcare workers, then I see both sides of that.

9/29/2009 10:35:24 PM

As health workers they should get it but they should have an out. Let them sign a contract saying they refuse to take the shot, but then also require them to take and report their temperature three times daily for the duration of flu season. If they have an elevated temperature of any sort, they have to be tested for flu and can't come into work until the results are returned.

Hell, that's what they're proposing doing at my work and we're teachers, not health care workers.

9/29/2009 10:38:00 PM

This would be akin to allowing construction workers to not wear helmets, as they've been shown to cause male pattern baldness.

9/29/2009 10:41:55 PM

Chaos, Fear Hamper H1N1 Vaccine Delivery
First Batches of Flu Vaccine Are on their Way, but Questions Linger over Its Safety And Challenge of Administering Shots

Quote :

"'We believe the vaccine is likely to be highly effective. We won't know until it's used but that's our belief based on the best science,' said the FDA's Jesse Goodman. But that hasn't quelled anxiety about the hastily produced vaccine."

Wow. That's encouraging.

Quote :

"'My doctor recommended that we not get the H1N1 vaccine for the first round because it's only been tested on 600 children and that's just not a big enough test sample to know what the reaction is going to be,' Dima Zalatimo said."

Wow. That's encouraging.

Quote :

"At the CDC in Atlanta, the operations center staff has swelled from six to 232, monitoring both the flu and the vaccination process around the clock. Officials there are scrambling to compile a database of vaccine side effects to track any adverse reactions to the shots."

Wow. That's encouraging.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/29/eveningnews/main5351510.shtml

Look, I've had so many vaccinations I don't remember them all--years and years of them--and I was never squeamish about it. But they put this shit together too fast and it concerns me--and it rightly concerns a number of health-care workers, too.

If you'd been around for the '70s swine flu vaccination regime, you might not be so quick to roll up your sleeve. The issue is not as cut-and-dried as some of you seem to be making it.

9/29/2009 10:45:27 PM

Well, if you'd been around for the Spanish flu of '18, sonny, you'd think differently.

kids

9/29/2009 10:48:05 PM

^ No, I'm just saying those vaccinations caused more problems than the swine flu itself. It sure seemed that way, at least.

9/29/2009 10:51:35 PM

Either way, we're fucked. The media has done a phenomenal job of fanning the flames of paranoia about the flu this year. I answer tons of calls from parents convinced that little Timmy has the swine flu because he has a fever and cough.

9/30/2009 12:09:01 AM

Quote :

"This would be akin to allowing construction workers to not wear helmets, as they've been shown to cause male pattern baldness."

Boone, that's not a very good analogy. Wearing a helmet won't cause potential harm to do, whereas a vaccination could make you sick. And given that this vaccination was rushed through and not as thoroughly developed one wouldn't say it's your average vaccine.

As long as it doesn't disrupt their work checking body temperature 3 times a day seems like a good compromise.

As for me, I never get the flu vaccine and I don't plan to this year either, be it run of the mill or H1N1. I never get the flu so I see no need to tempt fate, and since supply isn't as high this year there's probably someone more susceptible than me that needs it.

9/30/2009 8:25:32 AM

Quote :

"This would be akin to allowing construction workers to not wear helmets, as they've been shown to cause male pattern baldness."

Boone, that's not a very good analogy. Wearing a helmet won't cause potential harm to you, whereas a vaccination could make you sick. And given that this vaccination was rushed through and not as thoroughly developed one wouldn't say it's your average vaccine.

As long as it doesn't disrupt their work checking body temperature 3 times a day seems like a good compromise.

As for me, I never get the flu vaccine and I don't plan to this year either, be it run of the mill or H1N1. I never get the flu so I see no need to tempt fate, and since supply isn't as high this year there's probably someone more susceptible than me that needs it.

9/30/2009 8:25:54 AM

Yeah, there are never any problems with vaccines:

Have many vaccines been permanently withdrawn from the US market due to a safety concern?

Quote :

"Yes. In 1999, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) decided that RotaShield®, the only U.S.-licensed rotavirus vaccine, should no longer be recommended for infants in the United States (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 1999). This decision was based on the results of a review of scientific studies that indicated a strong association between RotaShield® and intussusception (a rare, potentially life-threatening form of intestinal obstruction) among some infants during the first 1-2 weeks following vaccination."

Quote :

" In early 1976, the CDC detected the circulation of a flu virus, known as swine flu, which was similar to the Spanish flu virus that killed many people in 1918. The government, out of fear of a devastating flu epidemic like the one in 1918, began a mass swine flu vaccination campaign. However, in December of 1976 the campaign was stopped because of reports of Guillain-Barré syndrome or GBS (a rare disorder that causes weakness and oftentimes temporary paralysis, usually in the arms, legs or face) in some people who received the swine flu vaccine (Schonberger et al. 1979). The swine flu vaccination campaign did not continue and the swine flu vaccine is no longer used."

Quote :

" The 1955 “Cutter incident” is named after the manufacturer of polio vaccine lots that accidentally created a serious safety problem. This incident involved a safety-related recall by the US Public Health Service (PHS). At the very beginning of the polio vaccine program, some people developed polio soon after receiving the polio vaccine. After the PHS recalled the vaccine, an investigation showed that some vaccinated people got polio because the poliovirus in the vaccine was still active (or live), when it should have been killed."

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/recalls/recalls-faqs.htm

Girl's death after receiving Cervarix illustrates the difficulties of assessing risks of vaccines – L.A. Times

Quote :

"As for the British girl, it is possible that she died from an adverse reaction to the Cervarix shot. But several other girls at the school Natalie Morton attended in Coventry were also sent home because they felt unwell after receiving the vaccine. That suggests that something else in their environment was at fault. But officials have quarantined the batch of vaccine used at the school, and an autopsy is being conducted to determine the cause of death."

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yabto7e

Quote :

"In 2007, two trials of a Merck [HIV] vaccine in about 4,000 people were stopped early; it not only failed to work but for some men also seemed to increase the risk of infection."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/health/research/25aids.html

9/30/2009 12:03:06 PM

And forcing health workers to show up for work puts them at risk of being killed in a car wreck.

9/30/2009 12:07:51 PM

9/30/2009 12:16:19 PM

when i was in 4th grade i was completely paralyzed in my legs for about 4 days. they weren't sure, but a recent flu shot was suspected as a possible cause. until better evidence is presented that this is an actual emergency and not a media created topic of the moment, i don't agree with mandatory vaccinations. instead i think policies should be in place to make sure that sick people are staying home.

if you can make the case that there is an actual national emergency then i can see an argument for mandatory vaccinations, but i haven't seen anything yet to make that case.

9/30/2009 12:36:02 PM

if you wait for the flu to become a problem before getting the vaccination, you're doing it wrong. people die from vaccinations every year. shit happens. the panic over getting vaccinated is just as hyped as the panic over the flu itself.

my grandfather was orphaned by the spanish flu. i'll take whatever they're offering and take my chances

9/30/2009 12:59:36 PM

about 20k people die a year from the regular flu or related complications, the only reason people are worried now is because the media has plastered them with images of people in masks and constant talk about the dangers of the swine flu. i don't think there is much of a "panic over getting vaccinated", and many people will get vaccinated willingly, my point is that they should be allowed to say no if they are worried about the safety of a relatively untested vaccine.

9/30/2009 1:10:13 PM

And hospitals have the right to fire employees who may increase the risk of flu outbreak.

Quote :

"about 20k people die a year from the regular flu or related complications"

And there's good cause to believe that swine flu may be worse.

How many people die from flu vaccines each year?

9/30/2009 1:21:09 PM

Im not getting either flu shot. Even during shortages we could always get to the front of the line as health care workers.


^I agree pooljobs. I believe there is a little over 100 people that have died from the swine flu in the US. Which is roughly the same amount that die from lightning strikes. I think this is more of a media blitz to keep you interested, along with y2k, bird flu, mad cow disease, killer bees from africa, global warming (just to stir the pot), etc.

9/30/2009 1:21:44 PM

^^


This poor soul undoubtedly suffers from fish flu. I told you so!

No other states that I'm aware of or the union are taking such a measure as New York, yet you readily jump on the government mandate bandwagon sure as shit. Way to go.

If mandatory vaccinations are such a good idea, why aren't all the other states doing it? Let me guess: the other 49 states are stupid and the NY Democrats have it figured out.

9/30/2009 2:46:26 PM

^^well one difference is that this flu season is starting quite early compared to other flu seasons.

9/30/2009 3:05:53 PM

^oh noes.

THe one year in practice I got the flu vaccine I got the flu. In school, I dont think we had a choice though. (But I never challenged it)

9/30/2009 3:20:50 PM

well with that sort of evidence, you should alert the CDC.

9/30/2009 3:23:11 PM

Quote :

"And hospitals have the right to fire employees who may increase the risk of flu outbreak."

Yes, employers should be allowed to force their employees to play russian roulette as well, and simply fire anyone who objects on the oh so silly grounds that 'it could be dangerous'

9/30/2009 4:05:11 PM

Statistically speaking I should be just as worried of lightning.

9/30/2009 4:07:19 PM

Russian roulette is a 1/6 chance, and against the law.

Vaccines are 1/100,000,000 chance, and not against the law.

9/30/2009 4:17:17 PM

Quote :

"And there's good cause to believe that swine flu may be worse."

show me the good cause, i've looked and can't find anything substantial. at most i found a few vague cdc releases that the media went crazy with. i'm being serious here too, i'd really like to know if this is more of a threat than i know.

9/30/2009 4:29:22 PM

It's not. The flu is actually pretty bad, but swine flu isn't really any worse than regular old influenza.

9/30/2009 6:01:52 PM

The only major difference between regular and swine flavors (afaik) is that swine flu doesn't appear to be particularly bad for old folks and is worse for younger folks up to young adults. This is pretty contrary to regular flavor, which is bad for the very young and the very old.

Most people will recover fine without medical attention. When it first showed up and the CDC didn't know what it was everyone started panicing and the media had a field day. Then once they realized its not that big of a deal, they never really got the word out.

9/30/2009 6:30:55 PM

if i've had the swine flu already am i immune to it now?

9/30/2009 6:51:11 PM

Come on people - a little perspective is in order here.

If the H1N1 virus had been discovered only a month or two earlier, it would have been rolled into the normal seasonal flu vaccine virus.

Don't be a lemming. We've been making flu vaccines for decades and this is no different... The whole, "OMG UNTESTED VACCINE" paranoia makes me want to cry for anyone who repeats it.

9/30/2009 6:56:28 PM

If this was the bird flu, I'd be worried, since its much more likely to be fatal than the swine flu.

I won't be getting any flu vaccinations this year. Never have, that I remember. Maybe when I was a baby.

9/30/2009 7:02:54 PM

the last time i got a flu vaccine it was one of those nasal deals... and it made me sick.

9/30/2009 7:56:38 PM

how do you know it was the vaccine that made you sick?

9/30/2009 7:58:20 PM

Quote :

"And hospitals have the right to fire employees who may increase the risk of flu outbreak."

Well of course they should, but we're not talking hospital policy, we're talking government mandate. Very different concepts.

^ I imagine he got the flu.

9/30/2009 8:54:40 PM

Quote :

"Come on people - a little perspective is in order here. If the H1N1 virus had been discovered only a month or two earlier, it would have been rolled into the normal seasonal flu vaccine virus. Don't be a lemming. We've been making flu vaccines for decades and this is no different... The whole, "OMG UNTESTED VACCINE" paranoia makes me want to cry for anyone who repeats it."

And what does that have to do with those of us that never get the regular flu shot and prefer not to?

9/30/2009 11:15:03 PM

nothing at all, of course. In fact, this entire thread really has nothing to do with that class of people, given that the primary arguments in this thread have specifically addressed the H1N1's alleged lack of safety and qualification

[Edited on September 30, 2009 at 11:20 PM. Reason : s]

9/30/2009 11:19:27 PM

you people quit calling it the swine flu

the "2009 H1N1 influenza A" has 2 genes from pigs, 1 from birds, and 1 from humans. its a novel combination and is termed a "quadruple reassortment"

and all this paranoia about a fucking flu vaccine is bullshit. its no different than any other flu vaccine we've been making year after year for decades.

2009 novel H1N1 influenza is less deadly and has reduced effects from traditional seasonal influenza. the only problem is it tends to transmit more readily to pediatric patients, who are typically more susceptible to severe complications including mortality than adults.

from the virus to the vaccine, the whole thing is pure hyperbole. its a weak virus and it's only interest is its novel configuration.

regardless, any healthcare worker who actively refuses a fucking influenza vaccine needs to be sacked immediately.

this thread illustrates the problems when you have English students trying to stir the pot with their incomplete knowledge of basic medical science.





[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 3:30 AM. Reason : ]

10/1/2009 3:29:34 AM

except this vaccine will be MANDATORY

10/1/2009 8:38:33 AM

who the F cares - lots of vaccines are mandatory

10/1/2009 8:52:48 AM

Which ones?

And this is not mandatory - it's a requirement for the job at those locations. That's different. They have an out - and that's to quit their jobs. They may have valid reasons for opposing it, but no one is using force, here.

Similarly, there are no mandatory vaccines (currently) to my knowledge. You have to have certain vaccines to attend government schools or go to government universities (with waivers and exemptions aplenty for those who really press the issue). Those are not "mandatory."

If parents plan to send their kids to private school or homeschool, I am not aware of any vaccinations at all that are required by law.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 9:02 AM. Reason : a]

10/1/2009 8:59:35 AM

Quote :

"any healthcare worker who actively refuses a fucking influenza vaccine needs to be sacked immediately. "

How about passively refuses? Or just declines. haha

10/1/2009 9:26:00 AM

sure that's fine.

until your employer comes and tells you directly to your face to get vaccinated or GTFO.

it should be mandatory for health care workers, and it already effectively is.

10/1/2009 11:36:04 AM

Quote :

"there are no mandatory vaccines (currently) to my knowledge"

aren't vaccines for mumps, measles, etc mandatory for babies? or just highly recommended?

10/1/2009 11:52:54 AM

They're mandatory for certain things, like daycare, maybe some private schools, and college.

10/1/2009 12:18:57 PM

they are mandatory, but there are religious exemptions that are abused as such, dieseases that were irradicated in the United States (mumps, measles, etc.) are coming back in full force. This is the main reason why I distrust anything coming out of the autism community.

10/1/2009 12:37:15 PM