I not talking about slapping some heads on, I'm talking micrometers, plastigauge, rod bearings, piston rings, all out technical engine building. I have a 1989 Integra engine (D16a1) that needs to be put back together, and once I get 1 more rod and the bearing kit its getting built, wouldn't mind an expert looking over my shoulder hah. zxappeal?

10/21/2009 12:38:08 AM

Dr. Quinn: Engine Turbonator.

10/21/2009 12:55:10 AM

can you make a single cam honda motor a dual cam, quinn. i know you can do it on ford v8 modular motors. just something i would like to know.

thanks

10/21/2009 1:25:17 AM

You just have to buy VTEC and a VTEC Controller.

10/21/2009 1:27:41 AM

hmm

10/21/2009 1:34:13 AM

I've built many engines, including those that have seen extensive track usage. I've also tuned a half dozen or so. I generally don't measure tolerances. :o

10/21/2009 1:34:36 AM

how and what did you tune with?

10/21/2009 1:44:13 AM

? You mean other than editing ignition/fuel maps?

Well, before that I was playing spring rates on AFMs, plate shape/resistance, and before that carbs and distributor orientation. Not sure I'd count that as tuning though. I also made over 350ft-lbs from an 8 valve 4 cylinder turbo motor on 87 octane gas once, yes, once. Oooh, those were the days...

I wouldn't go telling a "professional" engine builder this, but.. measuring tolerances fanatically for a rebuild is generally over kill.

10/21/2009 2:37:40 AM

I would agree with you, Ahmet, on not having to go crazy with the tolerances on american muscle v8's, but it is my understanding that japanese motors have tighter tolerances and if you want them to last, you have to be a bit more careful. Dunno how true that is because most race motors don't last 200,000+ miles...but I have put together a 306 with help from Boyette downtown and it wasn't to bad

10/21/2009 2:56:29 AM

really all you need to do in your case is check the main and rod bearings with plastigauge, availible anywhere and easy to do, and check your ring gaps

use the piston to push the ring in square and check the gap with feeler guages, file them down square on the ends if needed

before you go through all that trouble though, have a machinist check the crank journals, bores and pistons, you need someone experienced with precision measurement tools to get accurate readings, its not really something you figure out as you go

i have everything you would need, but i live in georgia now, so that really doesnt help

10/21/2009 7:36:40 AM

Yeah this block ate a crank and one rod so I will definitely have the cylinders honed and journals checked by Boyetts (they are awesome!)

10/21/2009 11:31:49 AM

Brian...Boyette's is okay, but not all that for a Honda 4-banger.

The D16A1 isn't a hard engine to build; I've done mine twice. There are some important things to note, though:

1. You'll never get as close as the factory to specs. For each main bearing, there are four tolerance ranges, and the same goes for the rod bearings. We're talking accuracy in the ten-thousandths, not just in thousandths.
2. If the block is bored, or even just honed, it needs to be done with a deck plate and a machine like a Sunnen power hone or boring bar. A permanent fixture. Those portable boring bars are shit for the job. For the record, Honda considers the D engine block disposable for most intents and purposes.
3. Rod length and size needs to be very damn close. You need a builder or a shop that does a lot of import engines.
4. It's very important to make sure that both the block and cylinder decks are true, and that the cam saddles are all co-linear.

Of course, you can do a ghetto rebuild like I did to get the damn thing back on the road in a hurry, and your end results may vary quite a bit. It's one hell of a tough engine if maintained, even on a shitty rebuild. I never dyno'ed mine, but I can say that performance was actually down from stock somewhat (could only pull 95 instead of 100 on the front straight at Roebling), and I could count on burning a quart of oil every 3000 miles. The bores on these engines need to be straight and true to ensure no oil consumption. You can't hone with a bottle brush or a hone chucked in a drill and get those results.

If money's not a top issue, check out Dennis Shaw Racesports if he's still around. Dennis has done great work for me in the past. Not cheap...but damn good.

[Edited on October 21, 2009 at 12:26 PM. Reason : blah]

10/21/2009 12:23:40 PM

Quote :

"can you make a single cam honda motor a dual cam, quinn. i know you can do it on ford v8 modular motors. just something i would like to know. thanks"

There is a DOHC head that was designed for the single cam short block (At the very least the 89-91 civics and crx). Online they refer to it as the "DOHC ZC". I dont think it will gain you anything but weight and complexity over any vtec d-series SOHC head.

The problem with the D16A1 is I dont know if you can use d-series civic heads. I've only seen it done with the D16A6 which came in the CRXs I think. The D16A1 is really shitty. Have you considered just upgrading to something better? Building a motor isnt cheap and you should probably start with something better.

Quote :

"before you go through all that trouble though, have a machinist check the crank journals, bores and pistons, you need someone experienced with precision measurement tools to get accurate readings, its not really something you figure out as you go"

This is a good bit of advice. I paid to have every crank OD, rod ID, and main bearing block ID measured (measuring to the .001" is not something I can afford to do). I also filled every piston ring as 69 mentioned. I ordered bearings to size based on the machine shops measurements and an excel spreadsheet. Become familiar with the honda bearing color to size chart (http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=715490) . I used OEM bearings in my entire bottom end. They are not that much more then a one size fits all ACL kit. I did use plastiguage last but the results were to be expected. I think you could probably get decent results with just plastigauge but it's about 2-3 hours more effort to do it the hard way. If i did it again I would do it the same way. There isn't any reason to spare yourself 2 hours. It is funny to hear the machine shops reaction to rod bearing spec of 0.008" - .0015" . I am curious what is the spec for old V8's?

Oh i used hastings piston rings for what that is worth. They seem fine but its only been 5-6k miles. I dont know if it being turbo'd matters.


Good luck!

10/21/2009 12:28:42 PM

Quote :

"2. If the block is bored, or even just honed, it needs to be done with a deck plate and a machine like a Sunnen power hone or boring bar. A permanent fixture. Those portable boring bars are shit for the job. For the record, Honda considers the D engine block disposable for most intents and purposes. 3. Rod length and size needs to be very damn close. You need a builder or a shop that does a lot of import engines. 4. It's very important to make sure that both the block and cylinder decks are true, and that the cam saddles are all co-linear."

2) Very good point. My block was overbored and honed with a torque plate. The top of the block was decked. I think this alone was 150$-200$. I didnt care about the increase in CR due to decking. Mine was going to be low enough.
4) My head was also milled the maximum allowed by the service manual. Actually I convinced them to go further. I have not had any head gasket problems.

Thoff downtown did all my machine work. They were very easy to work with.

10/21/2009 12:32:35 PM

Quinn nailed a lot of it...with the exception that the D16A1 (or D16A8) is a shitty motor. It ain't. But keep in mind that the latest D16Z6 is one of the best iterations of this engine, and actually makes between 10 and 20 more horsepower in stock form than the A1. The ZC engine is, of course, the JDM version of the D engine, and comes in several iterations. Blacktop twin cam ZC is a bolt-in replacement for the A1, and produces 130 horsepower, as opposed to 118.

You cannot simply bolt a Z6 head to an A1 block, or to just any D block...there are subtle differences between a lot of them. The only one I know of for sure is the Z6 to A1. It WON'T work. Different head gasket, cooling passages, and oil galleries.

And bingo on the bearing color chart if you want to go tight and right. The OEM bearings really aren't that much more expensive.

I have the factory manual for '87 if needed; however there are a few fairly significant differences between the '86 to '87 browntop and the '88 to '89 blacktop.

[Edited on October 21, 2009 at 12:36 PM. Reason : brown? black? BLAH!]

10/21/2009 12:35:22 PM

Yeah I have a d16z6 in mine. I didnt think a Y8 or Z6 head would fit on an A1. I've never seen it mentioned and probably for good reason . Thats why I suggested just rebuilding a better motor. If the d16z6 is considered better....how good can the A1 really be ?


FWIW I rebuilt my d16z6 rod bearings with d16y8 bearings out of a 1996 civic ex. They were half as much as the parts listed under a d16z6. I bought the parts at hondaautomotiveparts.com. Looks like I paid 3.42 each. 3.42 * 8 = 27.36. Not terrible. I looked up the acura parts and they looked much more expensive.

How much did you pay for a new crank? Is it too late to abandon that engine and go to something better?

[Edited on October 21, 2009 at 12:49 PM. Reason : .]

10/21/2009 12:42:45 PM

All great info guys, also I am sticking a 86-87 crank in an 88-89 block, I am told it will work but not sure yet. I have confirmed that the rods fit and operate just fine as someone on g1teg is running 88-89 rods in an 86-87 block.

Also, boyettes has a fixed cylinder hone/bore machine, I'll have to see if they can fit a 4 banger on it since most everything they do is v8 stuff. My buddy John got his Celica all trac rally car engine bored there and its a beast

I paid like 125 for the crank, I could sell it off to the right person, it is mint and standard which is rare as hell, I also think it is identical to a browntop ZC crank.

I wish i could afford a b16, mounts, axles, computer, transmission, clutch, cables blah blah but 4000 isnt going to fall outta they sky. Also I'd love to find a low milage blacktop ZC but they just dont exist anymore

Oh yeah and those OEM mounts from the Acura website are expensive as hell: 9.79 a piece
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=INTEGRA&catcgry2=1989&catcgry3=3DR+RS&catcgry4=KA5MT&catcgry5=CRANKSHAFT-PULLEY&ListAll=All&
vinsrch=no

Pretty sure at this point I'm going to go for it, honing to true is only $40 and I have access to micrometers, a lathe, all kinds of fun stuff at NCSU (thank you education) All i need is this motor to last about 75,000 miles until I save up for a Bseries

[Edited on October 21, 2009 at 6:38 PM. Reason : :0]

[Edited on October 21, 2009 at 6:39 PM. Reason : Ghah]

[Edited on October 21, 2009 at 6:42 PM. Reason : gh]

[Edited on October 21, 2009 at 6:57 PM. Reason : #4]

10/21/2009 6:31:41 PM

what are your plans for the car?

10/21/2009 6:46:39 PM

Daily driver & gas milage with peppy acceleration and handling. Also a JDM clean theme not a racer or track car or anything nutz

10/21/2009 6:58:59 PM

You dont need a b series. just a d series and 8lbs from a 14B.

10/21/2009 7:39:26 PM

What Quinn said...

Seriously, it's really hard to beat a D16A1...with the gearing in the 'Teg, it is a helluva fun engine. Speaking of which, I have an extra '88 transmission that I'll make you a hell of a deal on.

Here's a catch, Globlurn: the big hangup with using the '86-'87 crank is this: the oil pump drive snout sizing may be a different size. It's either that or the pulley snout. I can't remember. They had two different sizes throughout the years.

I like the blacktop engine because it actually has computer controlled ignition timing, as opposed to the browntop, which actually uses computer controlled vacuum. Not as precise.

10/21/2009 9:28:13 PM

thanks quinn and ahmet

10/21/2009 11:27:54 PM

I have no idea how hard it is to wire an OBD-1 ecu to run a civic motor and get engine mounts to fit it. The ecu harness alone will cost you 100 bucks, ecu 75. If all you want is a reliable daily driver the d16a1 is great. The OEM parts for the bottom end are going to be expensive it looks like. Make sure you at least change out the valve seals while the head is off.

I can drink your beer and watch you use a torque wrench if it makes you feel better . Pushing the piston into the bore with ring compressor is the worst part.

10/21/2009 11:40:08 PM

I had to buy a whole set of rings when I busted one like that.

10/22/2009 12:14:24 AM

that would suck. i believe it though.

10/22/2009 12:15:42 AM

Yeah, next time I do one, I'm gonna very slightly chamfer the top of the bore. Not enough to be bad, but enough to make for a better transition. That skinny top ring (1.2mm) is the bitch.

10/22/2009 12:18:35 AM

Do you guys roll your rings on or use a tool to spread them and install them? Boyette says to roll them on but I've heard both sides.

The head is brand new rebuilt, came with the car, I am using ARP stud kit and MLS head gasket to avoid any head gasket failure. dudes boosting 12lbs on this combo for over 2 years, and he's not nice to it, no problems yet, but he blew many oem graphite head gaskets before switching to the HKS multi-layered steel one.

There is a difference in the cranks, I am aware of it. The older crank that I am using has a 22mm pulley snout, and the 88-89 has a 24mm. I bought a UBER rare unorthodox racing underdrive 22mm pulley specifically for this crank off of G1teg.org , so hopefully the oil pump area is the same...if not I'll just get a 86-87 new oil pump.

There is a guy that swapped in a d16z6 vtec sohc I believe into his 88' G1, heard it ran really well

10/22/2009 1:45:04 AM

I boost 18lbs on an OEM honda headgasket intended for a D16y8. It was sig. cheaper then the part listed for the d16z6. The ARP headstuds will def. play a large role. Stock rods will probably bend/break at 200whp though.

10/22/2009 11:53:15 AM

yeah for this things turbo purposes, im looking for a simple 160whp setup, plenty to lay the smack down on any stock honda save the s2000, nsx

10/22/2009 12:03:09 PM

that will be easy.

10/22/2009 12:34:35 PM

ricorz alert: too many letterz n numberz

2 fast 2 furious

10/22/2009 2:32:46 PM

ricorz alert: too many letterz n numberz

2 fast 2 furious

10/22/2009 2:32:46 PM

' I already beat this piece of shit once! '

'GOOD, 'den it should be EASY!'

-3 fast 3 furious in Japan

10/22/2009 3:31:37 PM

Is your 'teg an 88+ ? http://www.boomslang.us/obd0to1.htm is an adapter harness to OBD 1 stuff. Then you will need a chipped P28 or similar ECU and I guess a later distributor. Does the 1G teg have factory low impedence injectors?

10/22/2009 3:47:54 PM

who cares when he is just going to run some 40$ DSM 450s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111 It's such a budget build that we are considering the cost (or not) of 4 resistors!

10/22/2009 4:37:47 PM

yeah mang 330's or 450's whichever is easiest to grab. I was just up under the car tonight, and man there is NO RUST!! It is crazy rare to find such a car on this coast with 248,000 miles.

10/22/2009 9:00:11 PM

do you have any use for D16z6 piston and rod set? I have a set in my garage that I have no use for. Will they work at all?

Looks like the CR would be horrid. NM *




[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 9:36 PM. Reason : @*$& the d16a1]

10/22/2009 9:30:36 PM

I am looking for another one of these cars. No engine needed. As a matter of fact, I'd like it to NOT have the engine or tranny. Know where I can get one?

10/22/2009 9:41:39 PM

hells yeha I do, you can buy mine! I really want to keep it, buuuuut yanno how life goes. I mean I'll keep it if nobody buys it, but if someone is really interested I would most likely let her go

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/cto/1430782027.html

10/22/2009 10:21:35 PM

Quinn: those rods would work since they are the same for all d16's from 88-96, dunno about the pistons..

10/22/2009 10:22:21 PM

If I could afford it. It's actually the RS, which I prefer because it has no sunroof. And I can trash the steelies without feeling guilty when I get new wheels.

But alas, I can't afford that much. I'd have to do this on the sly anyway so's to avoid the wrath of my other half.

10/22/2009 10:39:05 PM

^^

I read the d16a1 rods were different. Not different length but diff shape (wider?) and i would assume weight.

If you can use the z6 rods can you use the y8 rod bearings like I did? would cut a lot of cost off your rebuild.

10/22/2009 10:48:08 PM

Bummer dude! but thats good for me cuz I really dont want to let her go

I just picked up some alloy 14" Integra 90-91 4 door wheels for her today for $40 bux of CL, with tires that hold air.

yupp the 86-87' were a bit thicker and heavier, then they went to the 88 and up rods, yeah im looking more into that to see if i can save some cash.

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 11:17 PM. Reason : ah]

10/22/2009 11:02:51 PM

I ventilated the block on my '87, courtesy of a huge slug of water in the cylinder. Nothing like a windmilling rod...

10/22/2009 11:05:57 PM

that is brutal, I have never witnessed, seen, or had anything that catastrophic happen to me.......yet

10/23/2009 12:17:12 AM

Dude, the carnage was pretty awesome. Rod raked through the crank girdle and ventilated both sides of the block.

10/23/2009 1:21:06 AM

jb weld ftw

10/26/2009 8:07:55 AM

Quote :

"I wouldn't go telling a "professional" engine builder this, but.. measuring tolerances fanatically for a rebuild is generally over kill."

my dad slaps me when i say things like this

10/26/2009 9:22:29 AM

1. have a machinist do the tricky shit.

2. put it together yourself

3. win

10/26/2009 9:32:58 AM

theres no such thing as tricky shit, just not worth buying $400 worth of micrometers for one build

10/26/2009 1:48:15 PM