The house I'm renting has a gas pack but it does not have a tank hooked up. I've contacted the gas company and setting up a new tank and putting gas in it runs over $400. I'm trying to figure if I am supposed to pay for set up for this stuff.

There is currently a huge tank on the property that the gas company initially said they wouldn't fill
but have came back and said they would. But it still needs a regulator and lines connecting it to the gas pack all of which cost money.

Who is supposed to pay for this: the landlord or me? I've talked to my landlord and he said its "not his job to pay for my heat." I'm not asking the man to pay for the gas just questioning if I'm supposed to pay for the new lines or not.

Any thoughts? I've searched and am waiting to hear back from the local CDC (community development center).

11/24/2009 4:54:37 PM

Gas pack ?

How the hell do you know they got gas ?

11/24/2009 4:58:20 PM

UHHHH ...

Ask him how you are supposed to heat the house. You sure its supposed to use this "gas pack" you speak of??

Maybe he switched it off of gas a long time ago, and has electric heat now??

If the AC goes out, would he expect you to fix the AC in order to use it? I dont think so.

Just dont pay him any rent until he provides the means for you to heat your house .... and notify him that you will be doing so.

11/24/2009 5:07:58 PM

Quote :

"Just dont pay him any rent until he provides the means for you to heat your house .... and notify him that you will be doing so. "

This is not a legal means of recourse in NC.

11/24/2009 5:10:51 PM

Its a gas pack. Around this area there aren't gas lines running through communities. People have tanks and get these tanks filled up every winter.

The man lived in the house for years but moved to Wilmington about 3 years ago. He kept this place a vacation home but never visited so he decided to rent. He gave me the name and number to the gas company that owns the tank at the house BUT the company went out of business 2 years ago (just to show you how much my landlord knows).

I'm trying to figure out who is legally required to pay for the new lines and regulator on the tank. It just doesn't feel right that I should have to pay to hook his house to the tank when the lines and regulator would remain after I move out.

11/24/2009 5:20:49 PM

In our properties, we maintain the equipment and the tenant is responsible for fuel. I have no idea about legal responsibilities though.

11/24/2009 5:22:56 PM

Simple solution is this - ask him to pay for it. If he says no, suck it up and pay for it yourself. Take the lines and regulator with you when you move before the lease has expired.

11/24/2009 5:23:09 PM

It's the landlord's duty.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bychapter/chapter_42.html
42-42:

Quote :

"(a) The landlord shall: (1) Comply with the current applicable building and housing codes, whether enacted before or after October 1, 1977, to the extent required by the operation of such codes; no new requirement is imposed by this subdivision (a)(1) if a structure is exempt from a current building code. (2) Make all repairs and do whatever is necessary to put and keep the premises in a fit and habitable condition. (3) Keep all common areas of the premises in safe condition. (4) Maintain in good and safe working order and promptly repair all electrical, plumbing, sanitary, heating, ventilating, air conditioning, and other facilities and appliances supplied or required to be supplied by the landlord provided that notification of needed repairs is made to the landlord in writing by the tenant, except in emergency situations."

So put your request in formal writing (you know, just to dot your Is).

IIRC, you have to look elsewhere to find the definition of "habitable", but in NC, it does include heat and AC.

[Edited on November 24, 2009 at 5:24 PM. Reason : sdf]

11/24/2009 5:23:42 PM

i helped out an ex-gf back in Boone getting out of a shitty situation

she paid $600 to fill up the tank of gas for winter and it was gone in ONE month because the landlord didn't properly seal the house to keep heat, they insisted they weren't responsible, we said the word lawyer and they settled and let her out of it a few days later

good luck

11/24/2009 5:45:44 PM

Quote :

"IIRC, you have to look elsewhere to find the definition of "habitable", but in NC, it does include heat and AC."

air conditioning is not required

does the house have a heat pump with gas backup, or gas only, thats gonna be expensive to heat

they are provided to fix the heat, its no different than if the furnace itself went out, if it doesn't work, they are required by law to have it repaired

there are some exceptions such as meter set fees etc. from the power company, the power is not on, but you are responsible for it, its kind of a gray area, so i would try to talk him into it before threatening legal action

11/24/2009 6:55:37 PM

if you have electric heat then you pay to get gas hooked up. if you don't have electric heat and the gasis supposed to be the source, he pays for it.

11/24/2009 7:00:27 PM

^ basically

if he wanted to, he could buy half a dozen space heaters for the house, your electric bill would suck donkey balls, but it would be legal

[Edited on November 24, 2009 at 7:04 PM. Reason : ]

11/24/2009 7:04:06 PM

The existing unit is gas only. I don't mind paying the new customer fee or something similar to how you do when you set up the electricity bill in an apartment. But what bugs me is him wanting us to pay to run the lines from the tank to the heater plus a new regulator for the tank.

When the AC got 'struck by lightening' in September and no longer worked, his solution was a window unit and the power bill was insane.

For now, we've set up one of those plug-in furnace type heaters in the bedroom and it keeps us warm at night. And I've used my grandmaw's method of opening the oven up to get a quick heat up.

But when winter really hits and it stays 30 all day, it will not be pleasant. Even now coming home to a 55 degree house sucks.

11/24/2009 7:10:26 PM

sounds like he's a cheap ass slumlord, gonna have to deal with it or move

11/24/2009 8:25:30 PM

Yeah, I agree. You arent going to get too far.

As a landlord of 2, and soon to be 3 homes, if you came to me, I would have you deduct the required 'equipment' that stays with the house from rent. You obviously pay for everything else. Im lucky to have good tenants. When they come to me with a reasonable request, I do my best to take care of it promptly. The only request I have deferred to date was a new tenant wanting a glass storm door installed (this is a nice home). I agreed to install one, but not until later in the year.

It all comes down to the lease, however. You should examine it for declarations about what you pay for and what the landlord pays for and if a heating unit is considered provided.

If you live in the Raleigh area, you can tell him that if he doesnt pay for the equipment, you'll be verifying with Raleigh that he registered his home as a rental unit (he probably hasnt, and there are fines involved).

[Edited on November 25, 2009 at 10:31 AM. Reason : .]

11/25/2009 10:30:22 AM

My guess is that the landlord should pay for the tank, but you pay to have it filled.

I equate it to an AC unit. The landlord is required to have the unit there and in working order, but you are required to pay for the electricity that runs it.

That is, of course, unless the lease specifically states that the house is being rented to you without a source for heat. Does the house have a fireplace?

[Edited on November 25, 2009 at 10:37 AM. Reason : a]

11/25/2009 10:35:34 AM

I don't think it's legal to rent out a home without a working heat source, even if it is in the lease. As has been stated, that makes it not a habitable property.

I'd say tell the landlord this, and let him know that you know he's responsible for fixing it or providing you with an alternate heat source. Filling the tank is your responsibility once it is able to be filled.

If he still won't do it, go to your local housing authority and get the place inspected. It will probably fail and then you'll be able to get out of your lease (though you'll want to be ready to move b/c they probably won't let you stay there).

11/25/2009 10:58:29 AM

Also the last part of 42-42 states:

Quote :

"The landlord is not released of his obligations under any part of this section by the tenant's explicit or implicit acceptance of the landlord's failure to provide premises complying with this section, whether done before the lease was made, when it was made, or after it was made, unless a governmental subdivision imposes an impediment to repair for a specific period of time not to exceed six months."

So it doesn't matter if the heat wasn't working/hooked up when you started your lease, regardless what the lease says, he still has to get the heat working. Then there is this:

Quote :

"§ 160A-443.1. Heat source required. (a) A city shall, by ordinance, require that by January 1, 2000, every dwelling unit leased as rental property within the city shall have, at a minimum, a central or electric heating system or sufficient chimneys, flues, or gas vents, with heating appliances connected, so as to heat at least one habitable room, excluding the kitchen, to a minimum temperature of 68 degrees Fahrenheit measured three feet above the floor with an outside temperature of 20 degrees Fahrenheit. (b) If a dwelling unit contains a heating system or heating appliances that meet the requirements of subsection (a) of this section, the owner of the dwelling unit shall not be required to install a new heating system or heating appliances, but the owner shall be required to maintain the existing heating system or heating appliances in a good and safe working condition. Otherwise, the owner of the dwelling unit shall install a heating system or heating appliances that meet the requirements of subsection (a) of this section and shall maintain the heating system or heating appliances in a good and safe working condition. (c) Portable kerosene heaters are not acceptable as a permanent source of heat as required by subsection (a) of this section but may be used as a supplementary source in single family dwellings and duplex units. An owner who has complied with subsection (a) shall not be held in violation of this section where an occupant of a dwelling unit uses a kerosene heater as a primary source of heat. (d) This section applies only to cities with a population of 200,000 or over, according to the most recent decennial federal census. (e) Nothing in this section shall be construed as: (1) Diminishing the rights of or remedies available to any tenant under a lease agreement, statute, or at common law; or (2) Prohibiting a city from adopting an ordinance with more stringent heating requirements than provided for by this section. (1999-14, s. 1.)"

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_160a/gs_160a-443.1.html

Which brings us to Raleigh's municipal code "Sec. 10-6122. MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR BASIC EQUIPMENT AND FACILITIES.":

Quote :

"(14) Heating. a. All occupieddwelling unit shall have heating facilities, central or other. b. Heating facilities, central or other,shall be properly installed and maintained in good and safe working condition and capable of safely and adequately heating all habitable rooms, bathrooms and water closet compartments. c. During themonths of October through May, every occupied dwelling unit shall have a heating appliance with a minimum capacity of twelve thousand (12,000) BTU output so as to heat at least one (1) habitable room, excluding the kitchen, to a minimum temperature of sixty-five (65) degrees Fahrenheit, measured three (3) feet above the floor with an outside temperature of twenty-five (25) degrees Fahrenheit. As an alternative, a professional engineer or a North Carolina licensed HVAC contractor may provide calculations that the room designated can be heated accordingly by a heating unit with lesser capacity. Editor's note: Ord. No. 1997-187-TC-156, §1, adopted Sept. 2, 1997, amended this subsection c. to read as herein set out. The provisions of Ord. No. 1997-187-TC-156 will be effective September 2, 2000. d. Every bathroom or water closet compartment which does not open directly from a room having a source of heatshall be provided with an electrical or gas receptacle. e. All electric, gas and oil burning equipment installed on the premisesshall be of a type approved by Underwriters' Laboratories, Inc., or by American Gas Association and shall be installed in accordance with the provisions of the manufacturers' recommendations or listing. f. Chimneysshall have no loose bricks or mortar. g. Fluesshall have no holes. h. Thereshall be no hanging masonry chimneys. i. Thimblesshall be grouted in tight. j. Thimblesshall be installed high enough for the stovepipe to rise one-fourth ( 1/4) inch per foot minimum. k. Fireplacesshall be used only for supplemental heat and not for basic heating. l. Hearth extensionshall be at least sixteen (16) inches deep and eight (8) inches beyond each side of the fireplace opening. m. Combustible materialsshall not be within six (6) inches of either side of the fireplace opening or within twelve (12) inches above the fireplace opening. n. If the fireplace opening is closed, the closureshall be of noncombustible material and airtight. o. Any stoveshall be within six (6) feet of the thimble serving it. p. No combustible materialsshall be within twelve (12) inches of stovepipe. q. No stovepipeshall be routed through combustible walls. r. Portable kerosene heaters are not acceptable as a permanent source of heat but theymay be used as a supplementary unit in one- and two-family dwelling units . No owner shall be held to be in violation of this Code when an occupant is using a kerosene heater as a source of heat as long as the owner has complied with c. above. "

http://library1.municode.com/default-now/home.htm?infobase=10312

11/25/2009 11:08:41 AM

Quote :

" I equate it to an AC unit. The landlord is required to have the unit there and in working order, but you are required to pay for the electricity that runs it."

Spot on. If it was deemed to be in unusable condition, or is out dated, then it is the responsibility of the landlord.

11/25/2009 11:10:41 AM

^^Well, that answers my question about fireplaces.

But it still doesn't answer the question in regards to who pays the rent for the tank. The case can be made that the landlord has already provided the home with adequate means of heating, and that it is the tennants responsibility to pay the tank rental and have it filled.

[Edited on November 25, 2009 at 11:14 AM. Reason : a]

11/25/2009 11:13:18 AM

Fuck this noise. Move.

11/25/2009 11:16:54 AM

Renting a tank for gas is no different than having to pay a deposit/installation charges for water or electricity.

11/25/2009 1:12:17 PM

The tank rental should be the responisibility of the tenant, however, if there is equipment that must be purchased, that would normally be present for the tank (would assume that is lines), the the landlord should be responsible.

11/25/2009 1:20:51 PM

Wow there is good advice in this thread, but there's a lot of anecdotal bullshit in here too.

Quote :

"I'm trying to figure out who is legally required to pay for the new lines and regulator on the tank. It just doesn't feel right that I should have to pay to hook his house to the tank when the lines and regulator would remain after I move out."

The ability to heat the home is the responsibility of the landlord, which means anything that is necessary to ensure good working order of the heat source, excluding fuel. The heat source must be capable of heating the home to 65 degrees Fahrenheit when it is 20 degrees Fahrenheit outside (Nov - March).

If the landlord requires you to fill the tank, that fuel is yours. As a matter of practical application, the final difference in whats left in the tank at the end of your tenancy should be deducted from the final rent. [The gas company is not going to pump out the gas and refund the difference, nor relocate said gas. Gas companies typically will only service their own tanks due to issues of liability and the fact it's more profitable for them to have an extra charge of bringing out & installing one of their own tanks, but I digress].


The required state laws you're looking for are 42-42, and Senate bill 661, paragraph 6, which covers the expedited repairs required of landlords for immanently dangerous situations:
( message_topic.aspx?topic=578973 )


I hope that answers the question you're asking. You need to make your request on the heat in writing, which begins the ground work for you to constructively evict if the repairs are not made.



[Edited on November 25, 2009 at 2:23 PM. Reason : .]

11/25/2009 2:15:18 PM

Thanks guys! This has helped a ton! We totally want to pay for the gas and will submit a request in writing and get a formal invoice from the heat company on the required equipment. Hopefully this will be squared away before it gets cold.

11/25/2009 2:39:39 PM

Yeah I'm not 100% on this by any means but I feel like most gas companies don't rent out tanks unless you use a certain amount per year or something (or have a certain number of gas appliances). Even so they aren't going to rent out a tank and hook it to questionable piping, nor will they rent the valves and regulators to my knowledge (gots to buy them, most of them have finite service lives).

On the surface it would seem like renting a tank would fall into the tenants domain, however the more I think about it, the more I'm going to say that the tank is a necessary part of the heating system. If you draw an analogy to electricity, then it would be like renting a house with the breaker box ripped out (the wiring is there on the powerline side and house side, just not anything that connects it) and then you have to rent a breaker box in order to use the electricity. DJE equated renting the tank as paying a deposit/installation charge for water/electrical service but you get a deposit back and a setup fee is a one time thing, not recurring. The tank is an integral part of the heating system and should be the responsibility of the landlord from Oct-May (my opinion). If he can convince the gas company to rent him a tank every year for 8 months and come out cheaper than buying one, more power to him.

11/25/2009 2:45:11 PM

Quote :

"Wow there is good advice in this thread, but there's a lot of anecdotal bullshit in here too."

11/25/2009 2:48:02 PM

Start chopping the porch/deck wood and put it in the fireplace, and send him pictures of the destruction daily. (in addition to not paying him a dime)

11/25/2009 2:49:04 PM

Quote :

"Yeah I'm not 100% on this by any means but I feel like most gas companies don't rent out tanks unless you use a certain amount per year or something"

We rent our tank for $60 per year, and the only thing that runs on gas is our heat. We have a wood stove so we only use the heat first thing in the morning when the fire has burned out. We just had it filled and it cost around $200. So if there was a minimum amount required per year to rent the tank, we would be WELL below it.

That being said, we are in Guilford County, so it might be different in other areas and by other gas companies.

Quote :

"DJE equated renting the tank as paying a deposit/installation charge for water/electrical service but you get a deposit back and a setup fee is a one time thing, not recurring."

Many electric companies charge a "connection fee" that is not reimbursed. Furthermore, nothing is recurring when dealing with this type of fuel. You "buy" what you need, so it's not like you get a bill every month. And you don't have to rent the tank, you can always purchase one.

[Edited on November 25, 2009 at 3:14 PM. Reason : a]

11/25/2009 3:09:49 PM

Landlord has to provide working heat, I would not pay for anything other than fuel.

11/25/2009 5:21:48 PM