Get rid of public schools and then induce salary caps on the teachers of the remaining private schools, so that even inner-city students get a chance at good teachers.

Also, you could have a teacher draft every year and fantasy leagues for teachers. I love my idea.

12/6/2009 10:52:48 PM

i am 100% on board.

wow. that's actually a top-notch idea.

12/6/2009 11:03:44 PM

most teachers would TAKE LESS MONEY to not work inner citys. This would completely fail unless you paid teachers more based on how poor the area is. Inner city teachers would make the most and suburbia (cary, collierville) would make the least.

It still wouldn't work. A nationwide cookie cut system like the post office is whats needed. That way everybody gets good education (ie mail is delivered everywhere everyday with all of the same great services in each local post office)

12/6/2009 11:11:09 PM

Quote :

"A nationwide cookie cut system like the post office is whats needed"

A federal government getting more involved into the school system would be an epic FAIL. It was your beloved national government mambagrl that actually for the first time in 50 years increased the disparity of the more "affluent" public schools vs. the "struggling/poor" public schools, done via NCLB. Further, the national government has done nothing but increase pointless standardized testing and would bog down the whole process as well as sucking down $millions that would otherwise be spent on actual students in order to support the bureaucracy.

There is a reason our founding fathers gave the states a certain amount of autonomy regarding various issues. The federal government is NOT the answer to everything. The federal governments only role should be to perhaps assist poorer states with funds to bridge the gap and to create national educational guideline "suggestions"

12/6/2009 11:17:20 PM

Quote :

"mail is delivered everywhere everyday with all of the same great services in each local post office"

i'm sorry, what?

12/6/2009 11:18:34 PM

Quote :

"It was your beloved national government...NCLB"

BUSH

Quote :

"as well as sucking down $millions that would otherwise be spent on actual students in order to support the bureaucracy. "

what? local governments already have bureaucracy in place. You act as if I'm suggesting turning soemthing thats currently private to public when I'm simply suggesting nationalization instead of localization.

Quote :

"There is a reason our founding fathers gave the states a certain amount of autonomy regarding various issues. "

Yes because back then states were much more isolated from each other without access to mass communication. Each state was more like its own "state" instead of this being one nation. The founding fathers were not Gods, as many of you constitutionalists seem to think, and they had no insight on what things would be like in today's world.

Quote :

"The federal governments only role should be to perhaps assist poorer states with funds to bridge the gap and to create national educational guideline "suggestions" "

Or in this case insure the gap never comes about.

Quote :

"i'm sorry, what?"

theres no such thing as a "failing" post office. The education equivalent would be like mail coming once a week in poor areas with many of the services missing from said post offices.

[Edited on December 6, 2009 at 11:30 PM. Reason : when has your mail stopped coming?]

12/6/2009 11:28:32 PM

Quote :

" i'm sorry, what?"

I almost laughed coke out of my nose reading this too.. lol

Quote :

" BUSH"

I did not like bush and was ready for a change no pun intended. You are wearing blinders though if you think the sins of a strong federal
system disappear or are not present just because there is a more liberal democrat administration and legislature.

Why do people these days think the Federal government is the answer to everything. Has there been a big propraganda campaign with
school history classes these days to brainwash people into doubting the abilities of state/local level politics and instead rely on
micromanagement by the federal system.

Quote :

"he education equivalent would be like mail coming once a week in poor areas with many of the services missing from said post offices. "

I have never heard of schools in poor neighborhoods not opening up or kicking students out....


Like it or not no matter the spending and having the best teachers there will always be "good" schools and "bad" schools. No amount of money or teaching talent can make up for the parenting factor at home, the influnce of one's peers, and the environment
with which kids grow up. Some kids do not want to learn or want a chance even in the good schools. There is no big white conspiracy
to hold poor neighborhoods or minorities behind. If anything the kids within the "challenging" schools have more programs and outlets
within the system to help them get ahead.

[Edited on December 6, 2009 at 11:39 PM. Reason : l]

12/6/2009 11:38:31 PM

Quote :

"HUR: I have never heard of schools in poor neighborhoods not opening up or kicking students out...."

Hawaii is so poor they're furloughing on actual school days (not opening up).

And schools in poor neighborhoods absolutely kick more students out than more affluent schools (for identical behavior problems).

12/7/2009 12:05:35 PM

Quote :

"Hawaii is so poor they're furloughing on actual school days"

This is 100% completely irrelevant to my comment or even the OP. HI is an example of a state wide budget mismanagement/short fall. Last time I checked the state government was not planning to close just the poor schools. Either way stealing all the PTA donations from Cary High (along with all other more affluent public schools) is not the solution. If I live in Cary and want to donate $5000 for new computers, I do not want 50% of that going to assist needy schools in Mississippi without my "OK"

Quote :

"schools in poor neighborhoods absolutely kick more students out than more affluent schools "

I think this has more to do with parental involvement differences i.e parents actually giving a shit and grilling the principal to not expel their kid. Simply chucking money at a principal will not magically make him/her retain problem children that they otherwise would get rid of.

wah wah wah boohoo life's not fair

[Edited on December 7, 2009 at 12:27 PM. Reason : l]

12/7/2009 12:25:57 PM

I've gotten into debates with other libertarians about public school. I make the point that public education is essentially "infrastructure," like roads or water. Without an educated population, we can't possibly expect to be a competitive nation. There are going to be parents that have children and just don't care. Without "free" public schools, they probably wouldn't bother sending them to a private school.

As far as capping salaries, that won't work. One of the problems is that there isn't much incentive to be a teacher these days. You have to work for years and years just to make decent money. We need to have excellent teachers that are well trained, in all grades, so something has to make teaching a more lucrative career. In private schools, teachers get good salaries, and they're also more skilled and the kids get better educations.

12/7/2009 12:43:01 PM

Quote :

"private schools, teachers get good salaries, and they're also more skilled and the kids get better educations."

don't necessarily agree with that. private universities? yes.

private middle/high schools? not necessarily.

and i have to say, i probably would've gotten just as good of an education at a public school in my area as i did in the private school that i went to.

12/7/2009 1:06:59 PM

Quote :

"(ie mail is delivered everywhere everyday with all of the same great services in each local post office)"

For what it's worth, in one year, my USPS carrier:

Threw 3 packages against my door (and I literally mean threw, as in football QB style).

Claimed to delivery a priority package but claimed no one was home, never made any follow up attempts or left a note (I was home at the claimed time of delivery, and only found out when I contacted the people I purchased from to get tracking information)

Completely beat up a box marked and shipped as fragile.

Opened letters and mail.

Was finally fired for stealing netflix/gamefly deliveries from people.

Never had such a bad experience with the USPS anywhere else in the country. So I can only conclude that the mail is not delivered with the same great service everywhere.

Quote :

"BUSH"

Was still part of the Federal Government. And in 4-12 years when the political pendulum swings the other way, your side will be in the minority again, but the government will still have the same powers (and more) as when your team was in office.

Quote :

"what? local governments already have bureaucracy in place. You act as if I'm suggesting turning soemthing thats currently private to public when I'm simply suggesting nationalization instead of localization."

Yes, and that local bureaucracy won't go away when you nationalize the education system, it will just get bigger and deeper.

Quote :

"theres no such thing as a "failing" post office. "

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/could-your-post-office-be-closing.aspx

Quote :

"I make the point that public education is essentially "infrastructure," like roads or water. Without an educated population, we can't possibly expect to be a competitive nation. There are going to be parents that have children and just don't care. Without "free" public schools, they probably wouldn't bother sending them to a private school."

However, unlike infrastructure, educational needs could be met competitively, even if it needs state funding to ensure equal access. Having 5 different 2 lane roads all traveling the same path that 40 takes is far less efficient and destructive than 1 single highway, similarly, tearing up the roadways every time a new startup wants to supply a utility is destructive and inefficient. On the other hand, having 3 or 4 schools serving an area vs 1 is better for most people and cases.

12/7/2009 1:12:00 PM

Quote :

"In private schools, teachers get good salaries, and they're also more skilled and the kids get better educations."

Actually, they get paid less, and aren't required to hold licenses or degrees in their teaching areas.

12/7/2009 1:17:08 PM

I assumed they would get paid more, but I guess there probably are private schools that are actually worse than some public schools. What about in high performing private schools, though? How could they attract needed talent without paying competitive salaries?

12/7/2009 1:25:31 PM

^ He answered that with the second part of his sentence. By not requiring teachers to go into debt to the tune of a down payment on a nice house just so that they can have a piece of paper that says they can add, they can afford to pay a lower salary while still allowing a teacher to maintain a quality lifestyle.

12/7/2009 1:35:29 PM

Quote :

"What about in high performing private schools, though? How could they attract needed talent without paying competitive salaries?"

Private schools have a much more manageable student population.

Quote :

"By not requiring teachers to go into debt to the tune of a down payment on a nice house just so that they can have a piece of paper that says they can add"

a) it has nothing to do with money and everything to do with student population.

b) a teaching license is as much a "piece of paper" as any degree. It does mean something, though. Anecdotally, many of the lateral entry teachers (those without a license) I've worked with were fairly unprepared to be successful teachers. The semester of student teaching (which constitutes the bulk of the licensure process) has a profound effect on teacher preparedness.

License-less teachers can do well in private schools because it's difficult to do poorly in private schools, given the population.

[Edited on December 7, 2009 at 1:46 PM. Reason : ]

12/7/2009 1:45:35 PM

Quote :

"In private schools, teachers get good salaries, and they're also more skilled and the kids get better educations."

Quote :

"I assumed they would get paid more, but I guess there probably are private schools that are actually worse than some public schools"

a lot of private school teachers get paid less and it doesnt have much to do with the quality of education. I can think of a few private middle schools and high schools where I actually know what teacher and other employee salaries are and know that they are lower than the local public schools, yet as far as education goes I'm pretty confident (some confirmed by personal experience) that they are "better" (ie provide better education) than public schools.

Quote :

"By not requiring teachers to go into debt to the tune of a down payment on a nice house just so that they can have a piece of paper that says they can add, they can afford to pay a lower salary while still allowing a teacher to maintain a quality lifestyle."

There is a lot more that goes into that "piece of paper" than you are giving it credit for.

[Edited on December 7, 2009 at 5:31 PM. Reason : ]

12/7/2009 5:29:10 PM

A salary cap would be meaningless, because then they'd just come up with non-salary ways to provide compensation.

Not to mention the current breed of Republicans would definitely oppose this scheme because of the salary caps.

12/7/2009 5:35:40 PM

Quote :

"a) it has nothing to do with money and everything to do with student population. b) a teaching license is as much a "piece of paper" as any degree. It does mean something, though. Anecdotally, many of the lateral entry teachers (those without a license) I've worked with were fairly unprepared to be successful teachers. The semester of student teaching (which constitutes the bulk of the licensure process) has a profound effect on teacher preparedness. "

a) Sure it does. They don't have to pay their teachers as much, and can therefore afford more teachers and more classrooms, which in turn leads to lower classroom sizes, which in turn means happier more productive teachers. Unless you arguing that it has to do with the type of students that would be enrolled, which is also a significant factor. But suggesting that any teacher would succeed in a private school merely due to the type of students enrolled seems to do a great disservice to teachers in general

b) As you point out though, the paper means nothing, it's the experience that is worthwhile. I am all for teachers getting experience before handling a class on their own, but you don't need a university for that, you need an apprenticeship program.

As to the value of a degree, most these days are not worth the paper they're printed on due to grade inflation, degree inflation and lowered standards across the board.

12/7/2009 9:00:58 PM

Quote :

"Sure it does. They don't have to pay their teachers as much, and can therefore afford more teachers and more classrooms, which in turn leads to lower classroom sizes, which in turn means happier more productive teachers."

Except that none of these claims are true. Private schools as a whole don't have lower student:teacher ratios, either. Look it up:

Cary Academy (private): http://www.caryacademy.org/page.cfm?p=3271

Cary High School (public): http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/nc/other/1907#from..Tab

Cary academy is either no better or worse than the average NC high school as far as student teacher ratio is concerned.

What's the next straw you'll grasp?

Quote :

"Unless you arguing that it has to do with the type of students that would be enrolled, which is also a significant factor. But suggesting that any teacher would succeed in a private school merely due to the type of students enrolled seems to do a great disservice to teachers in general"

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. I'm a teacher. I know private school teachers; they would admit the same. Anyone who doesn't admit that 90% of any "advantage" is student demographics doesn't teach.

Quote :

"but you don't need a university for that, you need an apprenticeship program"

A university licensure track is as close to an apprenticeship program as you can get. If you already have a degree it can be done in one semester of classes, and one semester as a student teacher. If you're an undergrad, getting your license doesn't add any time at all.

Do you know anything about education?

[Edited on December 7, 2009 at 10:28 PM. Reason : ]

12/7/2009 10:16:47 PM

Quote :

"Except that none of these claims are true. Private schools as a whole don't have lower student:teacher ratios, either. Look it up: "

Gladly.

http://nces.ed.gov/FastFacts/display.asp?id=55

Quote :

"As reported by teachers in 1999-2000, average class size for self-contained classes tended to be somewhat larger in traditional public and public charter elementary schools than in private elementary schools. Teachers in self-contained classes in traditional public elementary schools and public charter elementary schools averaged 21.2 students and 21.4 students per class, respectively. In private elementary schools, teachers in self-contained classes averaged 20.3 students. Class size for departmentalized instruction in secondary schools also differed by sector. In traditional public and public charter secondary school classes with departmentalized instruction, teachers averaged 23.4 students and 23.7 students per class, respectively. In private secondary school classes with departmentalized instruction, teachers averaged 20.3 students."

Not a huge difference to be sure, but certainly a difference.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2002/analyses/private/tables/tab04.asp

From that chart, "Percent of schools with student/teacher ratio less than 10:1; Public: 9.7, Private 35.8

Quote :

"Anyone who doesn't admit that 90% of any "advantage" is student demographics doesn't teach."

One has to wonder then why we would bother at all with the licensing and training of teachers. If 90% of it is the students themselves, aren't we better off saving the licensing costs and simply throwing bodies at the problem?

Quote :

"A university licensure track is as close to an apprenticeship program as you can get. If you already have a degree it can be done in one semester of classes, and one semester as a student teacher. If you're an undergrad, getting your license doesn't add any time at all. "

Why bother with a degree at all though? I would bet you get better results on a teacher with 4 years experience than you do one fresh from NC State.

Quote :

"Do you know anything about education? "

Enough to know that this ever growing belief that you need to be certified, licensed and degreed just to teach primary and secondary school material is a load of crap.

12/7/2009 11:07:15 PM

Quote :

"mail is delivered everywhere everyday with all of the same great services in each local post office"

And by this he means that a mail man hasn't done postal on anyone, recently.


Postal workers, dmv workers, the military. Poster children for government waste

12/7/2009 11:55:58 PM

Quote :

"As reported by teachers in 1999-2000"

Give me a break. What sort of methodology is that? And it's 9 years old and pre-NCLB.

These are the actual numbers for last year (for Broughton, but the state figures are there, too):

http://www.ncreportcards.org/src/schDetails.jsp?pYear=2008-2009&pLEACode=920&pSchCode=348

Quote :

"One has to wonder then why we would bother at all with the licensing and training of teachers. If 90% of it is the students themselves, aren't we better off saving the licensing costs and simply throwing bodies at the problem?"

There's a huge difference in student performance between good and bad teachers, but good teachers aren't responsible for any edge private schools have (and I even question that premise-- why is it that most private schools in my area (Forsyth) go to public schools to take their AP classes?). I literally know of zero good teachers who moved on to private school. If you're good, you can handle public school kids, and you stay in the public school system for the better way and outrageously better benefits.

Quote :

"Why bother with a degree at all though? I would bet you get better results on a teacher with 4 years experience than you do one fresh from NC State."

So let's rewind to before Horace Mann. Great.

Quote :

"Enough to know that this ever growing belief that you need to be certified, licensed and degreed just to teach primary and secondary school material is a load of crap."

And enough to know that "certified" and "licensed" are the same thing?

This conversation has been helpful. I now realize that you're very willing to speak with authority in areas you have zero knowledge or experience in.

12/8/2009 7:37:22 AM

When people think of "private" schools they automatically picture places like Cary Academy or Providence Country Day (Charlotte). The fact is their are just as many 2nd tier high schools that are "private"; kind of like the Miller-Mottes of high school. There was a "private" school next to my high school. It was merely 40 kids who were either expelled out of my school or were to ADD to sit through a normal program. Instead they got an "alternative" style education.

12/8/2009 8:38:35 AM

Quote :

"A nationwide cookie cut system like the post office is whats needed."

Wait, isn't this pretty much the much-loathed NCLB?

Quote :

"(ie mail is delivered everywhere everyday with all of the same great services in each local post office)"

...that still often isn't as good as FedEx and UPS. I'm waiting on a SECRET/NOFORN cd at work that's been in transit for a MONTH, and just received a flight planning data cd that took over 3 weeks to arrive. If we were allowed to use FedEx, it would've been there in a couple of days.

Quote :

"BUSH "

1. G.W. Bush was a huge statist, so I don't really know what you're getting at here.
2. Ted Kennedy was one of the biggest driving forces behind the bill...then GWB signed it into law.

Quote :

"what? local governments already have bureaucracy in place. You act as if I'm suggesting turning soemthing thats currently private to public when I'm simply suggesting nationalization instead of localization. "

and that's still bad (not to mention unconstitutional). Having things controlled from needlessly afar is generally bad, and collecting money from the states only to turn it back over to the states after wasting some percentage of it by running it through an additional level of bureaucracy is a terrible business model.

Quote :

"The founding fathers were not Gods, as many of you constitutionalists seem to think, and they had no insight on what things would be like in today's world. "

No, they were not gods, and I personally don't feel bound to keep with exactly how they had things set up, but I do think that we are bound to change our Constitution if need be rather than just ignore it. The fact that the process is cumbersome is by design and a good thing.

Quote :

"theres no such thing as a "failing" post office. "

YES. EXACTLY. JESUS.

Quote :

"I've gotten into debates with other libertarians about public school. I make the point that public education is essentially "infrastructure," like roads or water. Without an educated population, we can't possibly expect to be a competitive nation. There are going to be parents that have children and just don't care. Without "free" public schools, they probably wouldn't bother sending them to a private school. "

I agree, although I think that there may likely be room for a voucher system.

Quote :

"and i have to say, i probably would've gotten just as good of an education at a public school in my area as i did in the private school that i went to. "

I went to a private school until I was in 3rd grade, when it got to the point that it was financially breaking my parents. They were trying to figure some way to keep me enrolled at the private school, but my dad finally talked to a friend of his who was the principal or some other senior official at one of the private highschools (I think it was Ravenscroft). To summarize what his friend told him, it was that (A) Private schools are far, far more efficient than public schools--they accomplish far more per dollar spent, but (B) They can almost never offer all of the things that public schools offer, due to the public schools being taxpayer supported and having much greater budgets.

End state: I went to public school and my parents didn't feel guilty about it.

Learning point: If we took the money that we throw at public schools and gave it to privately run schools, there is the potential that we'd get much better bang for our bucks.

12/8/2009 9:46:52 AM

Theres no way you can generalize private schools because there are so many different types of private schools with many being garbage and some being college for teenagers.

Quote :

"Cary academy is either no better or worse than the average NC high school as far as student teacher ratio is concerned. What's the next straw you'll grasp?"

Way to use a sample of 3 schools in cary to represent everything.

Quote :

"Enough to know that this ever growing belief that you need to be certified, licensed and degreed just to teach primary and secondary school material is a load of crap."

None of the things learned in an education program can make you a great teacher. Its something that comes natural. It can however, make people who otherwise didn't have the talent to teach, learn how to be a competent teacher.

Quote :

"These are the actual numbers for last year (for Broughton, but the state figures are there, too):"

using data from one state is useless in this argument because under a federal plan, every state would be affected. So even if one state lost some quality (which wouldnt be the case with nc anyway), the overall quality would go up drastically.

Quote :

"why is it that most private schools in my area (Forsyth) go to public schools to take their AP classes?). "

obviously you don't have high level private schools in your area.

Quote :

"When people think of "private" schools they automatically picture places like Cary Academy or Providence Country Day (Charlotte). The fact is their are just as many 2nd tier high schools that are "private";"

Cary academy and country day are "2nd tier". They are basically just big glorified public schools that charge tuition and don't have riff raff.

Quote :

"Having things controlled from needlessly afar is generally bad, and collecting money from the states only to turn it back over to the states after wasting some percentage of it by running it through an additional level of bureaucracy is a terrible business model. "

No there would only be one level of bureacucracy. 95% of the wasteful bureacuracy would be eliminated because you would have one government education department running things and all the thousands of local boards would go by by. Think about it, the post office isn't controlled by local government at all.

Quote :

" They can almost never offer all of the things that public schools offer, due to the public schools being taxpayer supported and having much greater budgets. "

Not true. Maybe with ravenscroft but there are private schools out there that have insane budgets from donations, lower salaries for teachers and high tuitions and then there are catholic schools that on average, run 70% deficits that are picked up by the church.

12/8/2009 12:37:27 PM

Quote :

"Give me a break. What sort of methodology is that? And it's 9 years old and pre-NCLB. These are the actual numbers for last year (for Broughton, but the state figures are there, too): "

I would hope that the DoE knows how to conduct a survey. And yes, I know it's 9 years old, but it was the newest data that compared public and private schools that I could find in a quick search (as opposed to the recent anecdotes which you are providing)

Quote :

"There's a huge difference in student performance between good and bad teachers, but good teachers aren't responsible for any edge private schools have"

And do you have any data to back that assertion up at all? It's a pretty significant claim to say that teachers and teacher performance has nothing to do with quality of private vs public schools when even studies controlling for SES show that private schools perform better.

Quote :

"why is it that most private schools in my area (Forsyth) go to public schools to take their AP classes?"

Because resource sharing can be cheaper than hiring a new teacher or taking classes away from existing ones? I mean, assume for a moment that both the private and public schools cared about their class sizes, and wanted to try to keep them down. Their regular math classes at both are fairly full, but they also want to offer AP math. If they knock a section of regular math out of their schedules so that an existing teacher can be freed, they have to redistribute those students to other classes, increasing the class size. If they each hire a new teacher to have a teacher free to teach AP, that's a whole teacher for what may not account for a whole schedule. If they instead work out an arrangement to split costs, both schools gain the benefit of AP courses, and can keep their class sizes down and save money.

You're a teacher and you couldn't figure something like that out?

Quote :

"And enough to know that "certified" and "licensed" are the same thing? "

Ah yes, the age old tradition of The Soap Box. When backed into a corner or just feeling pissy, take hyperbole as literal statement.



[Edited on December 8, 2009 at 2:02 PM. Reason : not worth it]

12/8/2009 2:01:54 PM

Quote :

"as opposed to the recent anecdotes which you are providing"

I gave you the exact average in NC from last year. You gave me a 9 year old study.

Quote :

"It's a pretty significant claim to say that teachers and teacher performance has nothing to do with quality of private vs public schools"

It really isn't a ground-breaking statement at all. Public school teachers get paid more, get much better benefits, and teach equivalent-sized classes as their private counterparts. What is their incentive to jump to private schools, other than not being able or willing to hack it in public schools? Don't you believe in market forces? Those paying the highest price will have the best to choose from.

Quote :

"when even studies controlling for SES show that private schools perform better."

Now there's some data I'd like to see. I'd also like to see how they controlled for the "parent giving a crap" factor. Because for a student to be in a private school it necessarily means that their parents at least cares enough to sign them up. Typically it means they sign them up, pay tuition, and arranged for their transportation.

[Edited on December 8, 2009 at 3:18 PM. Reason : ]

12/8/2009 3:16:34 PM

Quote :

" Public school teachers get paid more, get much better benefits, and teach equivalent-sized classes as their private counterparts. What is their incentive to jump to private schools, other than not being able or willing to hack it in public schools? Don't you believe in market forces? Those paying the highest price will have the best to choose from."

Getting away from all the politics and shenanigans of the public school system is more than worth a cut in pay to most teachers. I know several people that leave 6 figure jobs to teach at private schools. True teachers aren't init for the money and private schools put their teachers on much less of a leash.

12/8/2009 3:26:11 PM

In other words, "not being able or willing to hack it in public schools."


And seriously. ITT, people who've never taught tell teachers what teaching is really about.

12/8/2009 4:52:44 PM

Quote :

"Umm...I AM a Teacher"

- mambagrl

12/8/2009 5:00:16 PM

^^People who are inside the system are often the worst people to ask on how to reform it. They've bought into the assumptions and framework of the institution where they work. It's almost impossible to stay anywhere very long and avoid that.

So, from teachers, you're going to get suggestions about better ways to do things within that system, or how to make small changes, but you're rarely going to have anyone advocating a serious overhaul.

[Edited on December 8, 2009 at 5:02 PM. Reason : a]

12/8/2009 5:01:35 PM

^^ She's 21.

And a troll.

12/8/2009 5:04:00 PM

Quote :

"Umm...I AM DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK I'M TALKING ABOUT AND IN TWO YEARS AFTER I GRADUATE COLLEGE WILL BEa Teacher"

[Edited on December 8, 2009 at 5:18 PM. Reason : a]

12/8/2009 5:18:23 PM

teacher quality really is the answer. (well, of course, not THE answer, but it should be one of the top priorities).

increase teacher pay, fire the crappy ones, be more selective in hiring, etc. teach for america's got the right idea. but it's hard to retain teachers with 30k salaries.

12/8/2009 6:56:30 PM

Quote :

"I gave you the exact average in NC from last year. You gave me a 9 year old study. "

The first time, you gave me two cherry picked examples to illustrate your claim that on average private schools do not have smaller class sizes than public schools. Your second link is, as near as I can tell, a comparison of the class sizes of a single school against the total averages for the district and the state, but does not actually divide that information between public and private schools. So while your second link is indeed more data, it is not data relevant to the question at hand. Or more accurately, is only part of the relevant data.

Quote :

"Public school teachers get paid more, get much better benefits, and teach equivalent-sized classes as their private counterparts. What is their incentive to jump to private schools, other than not being able or willing to hack it in public schools? Don't you believe in market forces? Those paying the highest price will have the best to choose from."

Ah yes, the old argument that if you don't want to work in shitty conditions despite higher pay and benefits you just can't hack it. So presumably since you're working in Forsyth as opposed to say Harlem NY, by your logic we could say you just can't hack it as an inner city school teacher? After all, NY will pay you on average 10k more per year to teach there than NC will. Of course, you need a master's degree, but anything for the higher pay and benefits right?

Or maybe, some people have other priorities than a huge pay check and a pension, and might choose their job with different criteria weighting than you?

Quote :

"Now there's some data I'd like to see. I'd also like to see how they controlled for the "parent giving a crap" factor. Because for a student to be in a private school it necessarily means that their parents at least cares enough to sign them up. Typically it means they sign them up, pay tuition, and arranged for their transportation."

This was the article I read on it, don't really have the inclination to go looking for the particular study at this time. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1670063,00.html

And yes, the parents giving a crap thing will always matter. Of course, it's easier to give a crap when you're spending a few thousand on your child's education as opposed to getting it handed to you.

Quote :

"And seriously. ITT, people who've never taught tell teachers what teaching is really about. "

You don't need to be a mechanic or have worked in shop to know if you have a crappy mechanic with a crappy shop. You don't need to be a doctor or have worked in a hospital to know if you have a crappy doctor and a shitty clinic. You don't need to be a cop to know your local police are corrupt, incompetent and the department is ineffective. You don't need to be a teacher to know if you have a crappy teacher or school.

12/8/2009 8:19:19 PM

Quote :

"You don't need to be a mechanic or have worked in shop to know if you have a crappy mechanic with a crappy shop. You don't need to be a doctor or have worked in a hospital to know if you have a crappy doctor and a shitty clinic. You don't need to be a cop to know your local police are corrupt, incompetent and the department is ineffective. You don't need to be a teacher to know if you have a crappy teacher or school."

Even more than this - that mechanic, that doctor, and that cop will be the LAST people to notice, care, or say that their institutions are crappy or corrupt. This is particularly true if they have spent a majority of a career in it.

To insult "their" institution is to insult themselves, and people generally avoid doing that. A long-time teacher's opinion on school reform is not only not more valuable than those from the outside, it is actually worth a lot less.

12/8/2009 8:31:27 PM

I'd like to clear up also, that I'm not arguing for the abolition of K-12 public schools or public funding of K-12 schools either. The system needs a massive overhaul, and a reduction in the amount of mysticism afforded to it (i.e. "you can't teach or talk about what makes a good school without going through training") but public funding is not the problem in this case (though it is the camel's nose so to speak).

12/8/2009 8:49:47 PM

public funding isn't even close to being the problem. it's the mishandling of public funds that is the problem.

screw this rehashed professional development for the sake of professional development that the counties are dumping on their teachers without offering any real accountability. screw smart boards and laptops when the teachers don't know how to teach. you can have classrooms full of laptops, but if you don't have a teacher who can motivate, teach, and hold their students accountable then the kids aren't gonna learn jack. but give a struggling students a pen, paper, a white board, and a great teacher and they'll learn a lot.

and then take all of the wasted funds and put it towards increasing teacher salaries to attract fresh minds and relentless workers and you have a big step towards solving education right there.

[Edited on December 8, 2009 at 9:16 PM. Reason : ]

12/8/2009 9:11:45 PM

do the math if someone graduates in 3 and a half years and the age in profiles doesn't update...

12/8/2009 9:18:31 PM

Quote :

"do the math if someone graduates in 3 and a half years and the age in profiles doesn't update... "

Likewise, I have not updated my profile.

But, I do doubt that you are a teacher. In fact, I don't believe it. And the reason is the same as many interactions I've had with my wife about things:

"X is going to happen / is true."

"No, it's not."

"Why?"

"Because that would suck too much."

Same thing here. I don't believe you're a teacher simply because, well, that would suck too much. For the kids, for the parents, for the school system, for the state and for the whole fucking world. Things that bad just can't be true.

12/8/2009 9:40:15 PM

because every teacher brings their political opinions into the classroom and lets play your game and assume my political views are "crazy". Well its very easy to integrate ones "crazy" political views into science.

12/8/2009 9:46:04 PM

I don't mind crazy opinions. On science or politics or anything else. I have a few myself.

I don't mind those things when I can trace out an intelligible thought process that led to them. People who are reasonable, stable, and very bright can come to conclusions that are very different than my own.

That's not the problem, here.

This is because there are also people who believe crazy things without an ounce of intelligence or mental stability. In fact, of those with crazy opinions, this set comprises the majority. You are one of them.

12/8/2009 9:56:43 PM

^^ It's hard to argue with you when your rebuttal isn't a complete thought.

[Edited on December 8, 2009 at 9:57 PM. Reason : moo.]

12/8/2009 9:57:19 PM

Quote :

" Well its very easy to integrate ones "crazy" political views into science. "

Yes, yes it is.

12/8/2009 10:08:24 PM

Quote :

"who believe crazy things without an ounce of intelligence or mental stability"

this is straight out of your ass. Nothing I believe is original, extreme or even unrealistic. Many of my views that draw outcry on this site are actually shared views with several elected officials. I would hope it safe to assume there aren't people running around in congress, the white house and lower levels that "believe crazy things without an ounce of intelligence or mental stability". If so, then one being a teacher is the least of your concerns.

^Pretty much everything in science is fact or a theory thats fact. Theres not much room for opinion. On environmental topics in school, I would hope no teacher teaches opinions but instead, teaches situations and allows students to investigate for theirself given all the facts

[Edited on December 8, 2009 at 10:12 PM. Reason : like global climate change]

12/8/2009 10:10:03 PM

Quote :

" I would hope it safe to assume there aren't people running around in congress, the white house and lower levels that "believe crazy things without an ounce of intelligence or mental stability". If so, then one being a teacher is the least of your concerns."

it is not safe to assume this.

12/8/2009 10:11:52 PM

you're obviously just a political homer

12/8/2009 10:19:29 PM

I'm not gay, if that's what you're referring to.

12/8/2009 10:25:53 PM

Quote :

"this is straight out of your ass. Nothing I believe is original, extreme or even unrealistic. Many of my views that draw outcry on this site are actually shared views with several elected officials. I would hope it safe to assume there aren't people running around in congress, the white house and lower levels that "believe crazy things without an ounce of intelligence or mental stability". If so, then one being a teacher is the least of your concerns."

You are proving my points quite well. You have no reading comprehension, and no ability to make logical distinctions, regardless of how thoroughly they are pointed out to you.

I said that your political stances are not on the list of reasons I know you are an idiot. I know you are an idiot because of how you get to those conclusions.

And then, to respond to that assertion, you point out how many other people share your conclusions.

NEWSFLASH: THAT'S IRRELEVANT.

I will repeat: there are bright, reasonable people who believe things I think are crazy. I respect these people, and dialogue is possible. On the other hand, a strong majority of people who take those same positions are neither bright nor reasonable. So, simply given that you believe X and Y, I am unable to conclude whether you are the former or the latter. The only way to do that is to listen to how a person argues and arrives at the position.

Simply put, you are neither bright nor stable, and yet you reach conclusions that are shared by people who are not as dumb as you. Pointing to them does not help your case.

Quote :

"^Pretty much everything in science is fact or a theory thats fact. Theres not much room for opinion. On environmental topics in school, I would hope no teacher teaches opinions but instead, teaches situations and allows students to investigate for theirself given all the facts"

theirself?

theirself?

Really?

Frankly, I am shocked that word even made it into the dictionary as a "non-standard" word. Anybody who uses it needs to be smacked.

What is next? Hisselves? Grammatically, it's roughly equivalent.

[Edited on December 8, 2009 at 10:43 PM. Reason : a]

12/8/2009 10:38:58 PM