http://www.gallup.com/poll/141068/majority-americans-favor-obama-afghanistan-timetable.aspx

Quote :

"Majority of Americans Favor Obama's Afghanistan Timetable Opponents generally reject idea of setting any timetable for withdrawing U.S. troops by Jeffrey M. Jones PRINCETON, NJ -- A majority of Americans (58%) favor President Barack Obama's timetable that calls for withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan beginning in July 2011. Most of the 38% of Americans who are opposed reject the idea of setting any timetable rather than setting one with an earlier or later date."

Apparently most Americans are unpatriotic, including most independents:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10829837

Quote :

"1 August 2010 Dutch troops end Afghanistan deployment ...Canada is still expected to withdraw its forces next year, Poland in 2012, and the UK in 2014 or 2015."

I'm beginning to think the Dutch aren't very American either...

8/2/2010 9:25:50 PM

we already had a thread

8/2/2010 9:50:33 PM

^very astute of you

8/2/2010 10:42:18 PM

I think 80% of dems would agree with O if he wanted to Nuke california....but in this case I have to agree with the dems. Im not sure what the goal in Afghanistan even is now. A lot of the change would have to occur from within and over several generations Im afraid.

8/2/2010 11:13:49 PM

In all fairness a lot of Republican's would agree with the whole nuke California thing too.

[Edited on August 2, 2010 at 11:32 PM. Reason : .]

8/2/2010 11:32:13 PM

I mean, I live here in California, and I'm still on the fence about whether it should be nuked.

8/3/2010 2:55:10 AM

hahah, good points.

8/3/2010 9:07:18 AM

We never should have started either war. In hindsight, these will be looked back on as the dumbest, most destructive pointless wars to a state in history.

^^psh california is the best state in almost every way. natural beauty by far, best cities by far, culture by far, arts and entertainment by far, agriculture and the birth of most intellectual movements. Everyone hates on Califronia because they can't afford it, hate weed or a super conservative.

[Edited on August 3, 2010 at 10:56 AM. Reason : ^^psh california is the best state in almost every way. natural beauty, best cities, and intellect]

8/3/2010 10:52:12 AM

^hows the best state in every way's budget doing? Im sure they will get some more federal money, so we all get the joy of paying for the best state's fiscal irresponsiblity.

[Edited on August 3, 2010 at 1:40 PM. Reason : .]

8/3/2010 1:40:10 PM

I thought Afghanistan was the "good war." Oh, I forgot--that was only when leftists were using it to bash Bush over Iraq.

Silly me.

8/3/2010 1:45:34 PM

^right. THe clinton cruise missle attack showed to work so well in hindsight.

8/3/2010 1:58:00 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga859TrvjiQ

And what about this and other related issues?




[Edited on August 3, 2010 at 2:07 PM. Reason : .]

8/3/2010 1:58:50 PM

Wow I always had the utmost respect for time's journalism but jeeez. What a shitty piece of propaganda.

8/3/2010 8:53:30 PM

Quote :

"Wow I always had the utmost respect for time's journalism but jeeez. What a shitty piece of propaganda."

so you blame Time and not the extremist assholes?

you are such a fucking hack. i wish you would go live there and report back to us.

8/3/2010 9:02:56 PM

What happens if we leave sudan?
what happens if we leave congo?
what happens if we leave burma?
what happens if we leave somalia?
what happens if we leave chicago?

We can't be everywhere. Shit happens when we're there, shit happens when we're gone. Shit just happens and we can't afford to perfect the world anymore don't you get it? We're broke. and its all because of this.

Being broke is one thing but being broke with your entire future invested in Afghanistan and Iraq is fucking depressing. Especially when important parts of your own nation's infrastructure is in shambles.

8/3/2010 9:08:23 PM

fine, say that. leave the far-right conservative rag Time magazine out of it.

and again, please move there and report back on how gracious and loving the men-folk of the Taliban are to you.

[Edited on August 3, 2010 at 9:16 PM. Reason : ..]

8/3/2010 9:15:37 PM

^ya but then we need to be in all the other places listed too because the Taliban aren't exactly the last people whose hands I'd want to be in on Earth.

8/3/2010 9:18:49 PM

i am ok with that.

i like watching fox news and seeing the brains of bad people blown out, no matter where they call home. bring it on.

8/3/2010 9:21:02 PM

Quote :

"Being broke is one thing but being broke with your entire future invested in Afghanistan and Iraq is fucking depressing."

The compassion of a liberal.

8/3/2010 10:16:26 PM

Quote :

"We can't be everywhere. Shit happens when we're there, shit happens when we're gone. Shit just happens and we can't afford to perfect the world anymore don't you get it? We're broke. and its all because of this. Being broke is one thing but being broke with your entire future invested in Afghanistan and Iraq is fucking depressing. Especially when important parts of your own nation's infrastructure is in shambles."

I pretty much agree. I wouldn't say our current situation is entirely because of the wars, but we'd be a lot better off it we weren't involved at all. If the terrorists' goal was to weaken the United States, they succeeded with flying colors. It didn't have to be like that.

8/3/2010 10:26:46 PM

I don't think most Americans are unpatriotic. Stupid, certainly, but not unpatriotic.

It may not make any difference, unless you're one of the little Afghan girls who was really into going to school.

8/3/2010 10:55:21 PM

Trillions of dollars could send a lot of American girls to school.

^^The terrorists have indeed won. We are a pale shadow of the country we were 10 years ago.

[Edited on August 4, 2010 at 12:43 AM. Reason : .]

8/4/2010 12:42:28 AM

Terrorists only won because of corruption and mismanagement within our own government. Civilian government contractors have been stealing and have continued to steal billions and trillions of dollars because of poor financial oversight and no accountability over dishonorable Americans who abuse their responsibility at every chance they get.

8/4/2010 12:55:37 AM

I'm sure the wars were very inefficient and mismanaged, given that they were planned and operated by the government, but that's not the real problem. The issue is that they were unjustified, illegal, and immoral from the get go. Even if we had only spent 200 billion so far, it still would have been a huge waste, because we're not going to win, and we never could have won. We might have had the best military in the world in 2001, but perpetual war gets very costly no matter how well fought it is.

There's no longer an opportunity to make our money back on these botched conflicts. We have to chalk it up to money down the toilet; productive capacity that was squandered because the American people were too lazy (and vengeful) to properly scrutinize the administration. It's difficult for many conservatives to come to terms with this, and I can see that they're trying to save face, but it's time to get real. The money's gone. Borrowing money to pay for this shit is worse than taxing and spending. People would take Republicans a lot more seriously if they got religion and said, "we've got to cut across the board...including the things we initially supported. It's gotten that dire."

8/4/2010 1:13:24 AM

^

Quote :

"The issue is that they were unjustified, illegal, and immoral from the get go."

I'm not going to rehash now the justifications for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that have been debated ad nauseum, but that's simply not true. If you want to argue the wars are immoral by your standards, then fine. But don't tell me there wasn't adequate justification given and legality for them at the time.

And maybe people favor Obama's timetable, Supplanter, but they don't favor Obama's handling of Afghanistan--or Iraq.

Poll: Waning support for Obama on wars
Aug. 3, 2010

Quote :

"WASHINGTON — Public support for President Obama's Afghanistan war policy has plummeted amid a rising U.S. death toll and the unauthorized release of classified military documents, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll shows. Support for Obama's management of the war fell to 36%, down from 48% in a February poll. Now, a record 43% also say it was a mistake to go to war there after the terrorist attacks in 2001. The decline in support contributed to the lowest approval ratings of Obama's presidency. Amid a lengthy recession, more Americans support his handling of the economy (39%) than the war. Even Obama's handling of the war in Iraq received record-low approval, despite a drawdown of 90,000 troops and the planned, on-schedule end of U.S. combat operations there this month. Only 41% of those surveyed Tuesday through Sunday approved of the way Obama is handling his job, his lowest rating in the USA TODAY/Gallup Poll since he took office in January 2009. In Gallup's separate daily tracking poll, his approval was at 45% Monday."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2010-08-02-afghan-poll_N.htm

And this data is from Gallup--so the liberals here should accept it. It's not RAWRSMUSSEN!!!1

8/4/2010 3:06:02 AM

Given the high approval rating of the timetable withdraw and his real or imagined campaign promises I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the reason his approval rating for the wars is low and dropping is because he hasn't pulled us out already.

8/4/2010 5:47:06 AM

Quote :

"being broke with your entire future invested in Afghanistan and Iraq is fucking depressing. "

I wouldnt call it compassion, just stupidity. Our ENTIRE FUTURE invested? WTF lady.

8/4/2010 8:26:16 AM

Iraq was most certainly unjustified, unecessary and the reason behind failure in Afghanistan. Our war criminal in chief George W. Bush diverted resources to that conflict instead of finishing the job against those who actually attacked us on 9/11. Remember Tora Bora. We could had Bin Laden at that point but somehow he slipped away. All of a sudden he was deemed not important. It is true the failures of the previous administration have screwed us now.

8/4/2010 9:23:47 AM

I agree that Iraq was unjustified more so than Afghanistan. Hooksaw is absolutely right to include human rights abuses as a part of the conversation. But there is also a point at which indefinite war probably isn't helping a whole lot on the pro-human rights front. A time-table seems like a reasonable option in this situation.

8/4/2010 11:58:39 PM

Quote :

"But there is also a point at which indefinite war probably isn't helping a whole lot on the pro-human rights front."

No one is arguing for indefinite war; we argue that we should win the war. And you're crazy if you think ceding the country to the Taliban is going to be anything but a complete disaster for human rights.

I think it's odd that American liberals, the so-called progressives, the people who are supposed to be both logical and compassionate, offer such blatantly fatuous and anti-humanitarian arguments.

"Yeah, the Taliban is bad, but endless war and all that, plus protecting little Aisha from mutilation and chattel slavery is getting a little expensive."

This is progress?

[Edited on August 5, 2010 at 9:45 AM. Reason : ]

8/5/2010 9:37:23 AM

what does winning mean?

8/5/2010 10:38:07 AM

Some of you need to see this again--and to realize a few things. After her husband cut off her ears and nose, the young woman (her name is Aisha) crawled from her home to her uncle's house--he wouldn't help her.

You know who helped her? It was U.S. soldiers. And do you know where Aisha is now? She's in the United States receiving reconstructive surgery.

The United States of America is the greatest country in the world, for a variety of reasons. Those of you who continually blame America first and run it down should be ashamed of yourselves.

8/8/2010 6:44:14 PM

With great power comes great responsibility.

8/8/2010 6:48:39 PM

Yes, the situation in Afghanistan calls for Spider-Man's philosophical approach.

8/8/2010 6:59:26 PM

Quote :

"You know who helped her? It was U.S. soldiers. And do you know where Aisha is now? She's in the United States receiving reconstructive surgery. The United States of America is the greatest country in the world, for a variety of reasons. Those of you who continually blame America first and run it down should be ashamed of yourselves."

Great...we saved some people with borrowed money. Thousands of injustices happen all around the world, every single day. Injustices happen in this country. People go to jail for harming no one. It's not about "blaming America first" or running down the country. It's being realistic. We don't have the resources to maintain these wars. We cannot police the world, and we have no right to invade other countries and set up new governments.

8/8/2010 7:23:16 PM

Quote :

"You know who helped her? It was U.S. soldiers. And do you know where Aisha is now? She's in the United States receiving reconstructive surgery. "

She got her nose and ears cut off because she ran away from her husband, and US Forces being in the country didn't prevent her from getting cut up. I still don't understand why they blame her wounds on the Taliban, since it was the husband and his family that did the cutting. I'm chalking it up to just one more instance of Time magazine making shit up in order to write an article that tugs at the heart strings.

I was already getting tired of reading my Time subscription, but that article was enough to ensure that the magazine will be going straight into the trash from here on out.

8/8/2010 8:57:39 PM

Quote :

"You know who helped her? It was U.S. soldiers. And do you know where Aisha is now? She's in the United States receiving reconstructive surgery. The United States of America is the greatest country in the world, for a variety of reasons."

Even mobsters and thugs throw their spare change at beggars and homeless people once in a while to feel good about themselves and/or out of genuine concern.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/toxic-legacy-of-us-assault-on-fallujah-worse-than-hiroshima-2034065.html

Quote :

"Dramatic increases in infant mortality, cancer and leukaemia in the Iraqi city of Fallujah... exceed those reported by survivors of the atomic bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, according to a new study... Their claims have been supported by a survey showing a four-fold increase in all cancers and a 12-fold increase in childhood cancer... Dr Chris Busby, a visiting professor at the University of Ulster and one of the authors of the survey of 4,800 individuals in Fallujah, said it is difficult to pin down the exact cause of the cancers and birth defects. He added that 'to produce an effect like this, some very major mutagenic exposure must have occurred in 2004 when the attacks happened'... ... Dr Busby says that while he cannot identify the type of armaments used by the Marines, the extent of genetic damage suffered by inhabitants suggests the use of uranium in some form. He said: 'My guess is that they used a new weapon against buildings to break through walls and kill those inside.'... Researchers found a 38-fold increase in leukaemia, a ten-fold increase in female breast cancer and significant increases in lymphoma and brain tumours in adults. At Hiroshima survivors showed a 17-fold increase in leukaemia, but in Fallujah Dr Busby says what is striking is not only the greater prevalence of cancer but the speed with which it was affecting people..."

8/8/2010 9:04:07 PM

Quote :

"I still don't understand why they blame her wounds on the Taliban, since it was the husband and his family that did the cutting."

eleusis

Some of you really are incredibly uniformed:

Aisha, Afghan Teen Mutilated By Taliban, Comes To U.S. To Have Reconstructive Surgery
August 6, 2010

Quote :

"Aisha, who has never revealed her surname for fear of reprisal, told Time that her nose and ears had been cut off by her abusive husband, also a Taliban fighter, after she ran way."

http://tinyurl.com/2d44t6g

As you can see, her husband is Taliban. In any event, I'm not defending Time magazine, but you should've read your copy--or any other news sources.

Yes, Aisha was mutilated by a Taliban fighter with U.S. forces in country--but some of these soldiers helped save her. I take the point of the Time cover to be that if we leave, there will be absolutely nothing standing between young women (and others) like her and the Taliban. Even worse will happen if we're not there.

^ Depleted uranium has been used in a variety of conventional military weapons for years--sabot rounds would be one example I've seen. This is nothing new.

8/9/2010 3:46:02 AM

Quote :

"Even mobsters and thugs throw their spare change at beggars and homeless people once in a while to feel good about themselves and/or out of genuine concern. "

I take offense to this. we are doing a little more in Iraq and Afghanistan than 'throwing spare change' at civilians. we are throwing lives, resources, political capital, international equity and tons of cash to help the civilians in these countries. the easy thing to do wouldve been to achieve the military goals (done quickly in both cases) and bail. instead we have stayed 9 years. not even mentioning how much aid and charity goes to other impoverished countries all over the world.

are we perfect? hell no. but we are doing a lot more than "throwing spare change." if we ever decided on a isolationist policy there are a lot of corners in the world that would turn very dark.

[Edited on August 9, 2010 at 8:11 AM. Reason : ..]

8/9/2010 8:09:42 AM

Quote :

"Great...we saved some people with borrowed money. Thousands of injustices happen all around the world, every single day. Injustices happen in this country. People go to jail for harming no one. It's not about "blaming America first" or running down the country. It's being realistic. We don't have the resources to maintain these wars. We cannot police the world, and we have no right to invade other countries and set up new governments."

Bolded for great justice.

8/9/2010 9:30:39 AM

Quote :

"Quote : "I still don't understand why they blame her wounds on the Taliban, since it was the husband and his family that did the cutting." eleusis Some of you really are incredibly uniformed: Aisha, Afghan Teen Mutilated By Taliban, Comes To U.S. To Have Reconstructive Surgery August 6, 2010 Quote : "Aisha, who has never revealed her surname for fear of reprisal, told Time that her nose and ears had been cut off by her abusive husband, also a Taliban fighter, after she ran way." "

she got diced up because she ran away from her husband. Whether or not he was a taliban fighter had nothing at all to do with why the guy's entire family dragged her up to the top of a mountain and cut off her nose and ears. You make it out to be like she was diced up because she failed to bomb the Americans.

8/9/2010 1:12:39 PM

I wish we did not have to act as the world police force. it is a lose/lose situation because it seems as if we pick and choose which bad people to confront, and we dont always make the right decisions.

on the other hand "with great power comes great responsibility" as moron put it. it a quandary.

8/9/2010 1:12:52 PM

We haven't had to pay the bill for these wars yet. Like I said, it's all been borrowed money. I don't think anyone is going to be feeling nearly as patriotic when 1) the dollar tanks...hard or 2) we're having to actually downsize the military, which means we really are less safe at home.

If these conflicts are justified, and worth paying for, then we should be invading and occupying every country in the world that doesn't meet up to our standard of freedom, and paying for them to build a new government. We can sell bonds all day to pay for it. Also, since the Chinese government is probably one of the most egregious violators of civil rights, we should start with them. Oh, wait...they're financing our entire phony economy.

8/9/2010 1:31:22 PM

^^^ That's laughable. C'mon, man!

You're acting as if the guy who cut off his wife's ears and nose just happened to be in the Taliban by coincidence. In his belief system, Taliban membership and mutilating women are not mutually exclusive. I shouldn't have to explain this.

In any event, if we leave Afghanistan the "wrong" way, the type of mutilation in question and other horrific acts will only increase. There's very little legitimate debate about this.

^ There are more important things than money, d357r0y3r.

[Edited on August 9, 2010 at 6:28 PM. Reason : And I think you know this.]

8/9/2010 6:26:16 PM

There are many things more important than money. If I could pay like, 500 bucks, and the entire nation of Afghanistan would be free, I'd probably do it. What I'm not willing to do is take a substantial cut in my standard of living so we can fail at setting up a puppet democracy, while enriching the few privileged American corporations. Freedom in this country was fought for. Many people died and sacrificed so we could have liberty. Every society on this planet must undergo that same process. It's the natural order. We can trade, talk, and encourage nations to adopt better systems of government, but please look at our national debt and our unfunded liabilities, and tell me with a straight face that we have the resources to adequately complete these nation building missions.

8/9/2010 7:33:54 PM

^ It's sunk costs. And if we don't finish the job, it'll cost us even more in the future.

[Edited on August 10, 2010 at 5:40 AM. Reason : And it won't be a democracy. It'll be an Islamic republic. ]

8/10/2010 5:27:18 AM

Quote :

"Some of you need to see this again--and to realize a few things. After her husband cut off her ears and nose, the young woman (her name is Aisha) crawled from her home to her uncle's house--he wouldn't help her. You know who helped her? It was U.S. soldiers. And do you know where Aisha is now? She's in the United States receiving reconstructive surgery. The United States of America is the greatest country in the world, for a variety of reasons. Those of you who continually blame America first and run it down should be ashamed of yourselves."

Well fuck man, lets just invade every country on the planet that has people doing shit in the name of their non-christian religion that we disagree with

Let's start with Saudi Arabia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm

Quote :

"Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers. In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday."

8/10/2010 7:03:45 AM

^ Actually, we're already there. Trying to make it a better place for Afghans, helping to secure the region, and not giving terrorists a free-for-all launching pad for attacks against the United States and its allies.

8/10/2010 6:11:52 PM

hooksaw is such a hack

8/13/2010 4:33:09 AM

This doesn't really apply to this thread, but I thought some of you might find it a good read:

Pat Tillman's Father To Army Investigator: 'F--- You... And Yours'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/12/pat-tillmans-father-to-ar_n_680128.html

8/13/2010 1:03:48 PM