[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 3:13 PM. Reason : .]

9/28/2010 3:10:59 PM

ahahahaha. i laughed at "this is not a dress"

oh man.

#i'maloser

9/28/2010 3:15:42 PM

^^
Amen.

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 3:16 PM. Reason : ]

9/28/2010 3:15:51 PM

Signed

9/28/2010 3:20:04 PM

i want scrambled eggs now

9/28/2010 3:23:27 PM

i'm gonna go *fap* and kill like a billion half-babies

9/28/2010 3:24:31 PM

haha, awesome. /debate.

9/28/2010 3:26:36 PM

Y'know those are all terrible arguments for being pro-choice...

They're too easy to argue against, and it makes the pro-rapists look better

9/28/2010 4:10:40 PM

^ wut? pro-rapists?



[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:12 PM. Reason : .]

9/28/2010 4:11:24 PM

toemoss just outed himself as pro-rapist

9/28/2010 4:14:33 PM

Quote :

"Y'know those are all terrible arguments for being pro-choice... They're too easy to argue against, and it makes the pro-rapists look better"

[oh yeah, i get it... those arguments are terrible, but it is not terrible to call pro-lifers "pro-rapists" ]

9/28/2010 4:15:21 PM

Prolife people do not give a fuck about the biology of the situation (obviously) so while this is common sense to the rest of us, they still won't get it

9/28/2010 4:18:12 PM

zygotes have feelings too

9/28/2010 4:18:37 PM

Quote :

"zygotes have feelings too"

Didn't you know that the second daddy pumps one off in mommy that his jizzum is ensouled?

9/28/2010 4:19:36 PM

no such thing as rape


only sluts

9/28/2010 4:21:11 PM

no such thing as sluts


only women

9/28/2010 4:21:52 PM

how come zygotes have souls but pets don't?

AND

how come abortion is bad but in vitro isn't (ok i'll give some pro-lifers credit for hating on this too, but a LOT don't)?

these are all questions that i have.

and "this is not a dress" still makes me laugh

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:22 PM. Reason : .]

9/28/2010 4:21:55 PM

true...the egg is not a chicken, the acorn is not a tree, the silk is not a dress, but is this a baby?

9/28/2010 4:23:11 PM

to me it looks like an alien to me

9/28/2010 4:25:03 PM

You won't get any argument from me about that picture at face value. I don't think a zygote is a person.

...but what about:


That's at 4 months...still pretty early on, within the window at which abortion is common and well before it's illegal/restricted in most places.

Month 4: Get out the headphones and tune the radio dial to Mozart—this month, the fetus can hear its mother’s heartbeat, her voice and other outside noises. The fetus is also developing at warp speed; by now, all its major organs are complete. In addition, its bones are growing stronger and its muscles longer. Its reflexes also are sharpening up—it can now swallow, kick and execute an occasional somersault with relative ease. And by month’s end, the baby-to-be will weigh around 6 ounces and stretch some 7 inches long. Sweat glands will dot its palms and soles, and its wrinkly skin will shine transparent pink. At this stage, the baby-to-be may look like a complete package, but it still has a few more months of growing to do. By the end of month four, most doctors can perform an ultrasound test and identify the baby’s gender.

Quote :

"how come abortion is bad but in vitro isn't (ok i'll give some pro-lifers credit for hating on this too, but a LOT don't)?"

Yeah, I've wondered that, too, at least among those who believe that human life begins at conception (along with birth control pills, which also cause fertilized eggs to not impant in the uterine lining, and thus get expelled).





[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:27 PM. Reason : ]

9/28/2010 4:25:14 PM

^^^

no it is not... don't you know that up until birth it is not a human (even a second before), but as soon as it is born, it is magically a human?

it is like having sex with a girl who is 17 yrs and 364 days old... ILLEGAL/CRIME/HEINOUS/CHILD SEX/ETICA ETICA... but the next day it is all fine and dandy!



[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:27 PM. Reason : ]

9/28/2010 4:26:34 PM

nah son

viability is key

besides, that argument works the other way too.

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:30 PM. Reason : .]

9/28/2010 4:28:48 PM

^^i agree...and i'm actually pro-choice. the point i was making is the the picture in the OP is a dumb analogy.

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:29 PM. Reason : ^^]

9/28/2010 4:29:18 PM

^^ why? i don't see why that matters from a philosophical standpoint.

and that's a continuum too, so it still isn't even a good metric from a pragmatic standpoint.

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:31 PM. Reason : ^^ which argument works what other way?]

9/28/2010 4:30:59 PM

^^

damn son, my post was sarcasm (but it didn't work!)... i don't agree, and i see abortion as murder-lite.


[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:31 PM. Reason : ]

9/28/2010 4:31:18 PM

most things operate on a continuum.

and answer my question about in vitro! everyone is fine with that. DISCARDED FERTILIZED EGGS. MURDERRRR!!!!!


and the fact of the matter is, abortion is always going to happen whether legal or illegal. i'd say i'm much more in favor of the legal version instead of wire hanger/baby in a trashcan version. people (MEN) can't seem to grasp the fact that if i a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, passing a law isn't going to magically shine this light down on her to where she is like "OMG, I DO WANT MY BABY." so either its a wire hanger/trashcan/stairs/drunken and drug aborted baby OR its born to a mother who doesn't want it and then discarded, not cared for, abused, whatever. or goes into foster care (hey that system works!). or what? we force these mothers to give the babies up for adoption? there are already TONS of kids without homes.

not to mention the political argument. conservatives want small government except here they are willing to step *WAY* over the line and pry into the most PRIVATE part of someone's life. forcing birth and...then what? also forcing adoption to make sure the baby is wanted and cared for? are we also going to force prenatal care to make sure crackhead alcoholic moms don't do crack? who is paying for this? who is paying for the unwanted child? yes lets force people to have babies and then cut state funded programs for foster care! perfect solution!


/rant

not directed at theduke. just a rant

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:40 PM. Reason : .]

9/28/2010 4:33:14 PM

^^ I see abortion in the early stages by something like RU-486, when you just have a lump of cells, as fine.

By sometime before the end of the 2nd trimester, at which point abortion is still pretty much unrestricted, I don't really see it as any different than walking into the hospital's newborn nursery and hacking up an infant with power tools.

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:35 PM. Reason : ^ well, i'm fine with that too, but i'm also ideologically/philosophically consistent]

9/28/2010 4:34:36 PM

Heard this on CSI once:

Quote :

"The Bible Also Teaches Us That "Life Is In The Blood." "But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." (Genesis 9:4 KJV) "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." (Leviticus 17:11 KJV) "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off." (Leviticus 17:14 KJV) "Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh." (Deuteronomy 12:23 KJV) This means that human life does not begin until blood is present in the embryo. Therefore, Life (As The Bible Understands It) Cannot Begin At The Moment Of Conception, Because There Is No Blood Or Heartbeat Present Until Sometime During The Third Week Of Pregnancy. "

I'm Catholic, but I'm also a marine scientist, so I have a complicated view on the issue. Under no circumstances to I believe that something that has the potential for life can be called life. It isn't until it is, so to speak. I heard a Lewis Black sketch that likened a human fetus to a frozen pizza that hadn't been fully cooked yet- I think this is a good analogy. Until the fetus resembles and functions like a live human being (ie, TheDuke's pic), then it really isn't a human being yet.

9/28/2010 4:37:10 PM

Well, I'd describe myself as agnostic (not in the hostile to religion, loaded sense of the word...I just take no stance on the matter and live my life under the assumption that there is no God). My take on the matter is not one drawn from religious convictions.

9/28/2010 4:39:53 PM

Well I hope this life-standard becomes the law. because my kids won't have a life until they're 18.... so I guess that means I'll have a lot of time to decide.

9/28/2010 4:40:17 PM

9/28/2010 4:40:27 PM

Quote :

"those arguments are terrible, but it is not terrible to call pro-lifers "pro-rapists""

Meh.. just stirring up trouble.. not my actual opinion

Pro-lifers will make the argument that abortion is murder
Pro-choicers will make the argument that rape victims shouldn't have to keep the baby

rabble rabble

9/28/2010 4:40:39 PM

well i can agree with THEDUKE

as long as there is the option to have early abortions then i'm cool. and obviously the medical exceptions for later term abortions. most pro-choice people aren't pro-abortion. i'm not saying its an awesome thing, i'm just saying sometimes people don't think through the long-term alternatives of forcing mothers who do not want a child to go through the birthing process. its not like they have the kid and then everyone is happy. then what happens to the kid?

and i like that theduke is

Quote :

"^ well, i'm fine with that too, but i'm also ideologically/philosophically consistent"

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:42 PM. Reason : .]

9/28/2010 4:41:44 PM

western style abortion is better than eastern style abortion.

9/28/2010 4:41:50 PM

all that matters is brain function, not what it looks like from the outside

lol

9/28/2010 4:49:16 PM

my friend spent 6 weeks working at a hospital in kenya where abortion is illegal and said girls came in all the time after inducing labor by throwing themselves down the stairs so the fetus would end up dying or being aborted basically

9/28/2010 4:49:49 PM

Quote :

"We always prescribe two associated herbs: cotton root bark or pennyroyal or mugwort to be used with parsley or blue cohosh or black cohosh Using one teaspoonful of each plant, separately, per cup liquid - in infusion for the leaves (mugwort and pennyroyal), and in decoction for the roots (the others) - drink one cup of each of the 2 herbs three timesa day. This means 6 cups to drink each day for a maximum of 6 days. (more information below) BE CAREFUL: do not overdose. Do not continue treatment more than six days. Do not begin after the 10th overdue day. The better informed women are, the earlier they will begin. It is not necessary to continue taking the herbs once the period has truly begun."

9/28/2010 4:52:31 PM

Quote :

"people (MEN) can't seem to grasp the fact that if i a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, passing a law isn't going to magically shine this light down on her to where she is like "OMG, I DO WANT MY BABY." "

You aren't saying it explicitly, but you're implying that this is a women's issue. You are explicitly stating that men can't "grasp it". This is not a women's issue, and men are perfectly capable of grasping it--nobody gives a shit what women do to their bodies. The whole issue is that of where you define the beginning of human life.

Quote :

"not to mention the political argument. conservatives want small government except here they are willing to step *WAY* over the line and pry into the most PRIVATE part of someone's life."

Well, I'm ideologically consistent here, too... I suppose it goes with the territory of leaning right on fiscal matters and generally left on social ones--I'm pretty much for maximum net freedom--but here you are are explicitly stating what I just mentioned. At some point, it's not your life. Well, really, to split hairs, I don't think it's your life at any point--but initially, it isn't anyone else's, either. At some point, though, that changes, and I think we currently define that point absurdly late in the game.

Quote :

"as long as there is the option to have early abortions then i'm cool. and obviously the medical exceptions for later term abortions. most pro-choice people aren't pro-abortion."

True, like I said, I concur on the legality of very early term abortions, and really don't see any reason that things shouldn't be handled within 2-3 weeks instead of 2-3 months (or more).

I do take some issue with your second statement, and the attitude of "people are sometimes going to do it anyway, so we might as well make it legal." If it's getting rid of a lump of cells, whatever. If it's killing a baby, you can't justify that being legal because "some people will do it anyway."

Furthermore, I don't think we want to go that far down the road of institutionalized expediency with human life.

Quote :

"all that matters is brain function, not what it looks like from the outside "

That's why I posted the caption, not just the picture

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 4:59 PM. Reason : ]

9/28/2010 4:57:33 PM

Quote :

"most things operate on a continuum. "

amen.

9/28/2010 4:58:09 PM

^ yeah, at some point you have to draw a line. you either take the most conservative approach to ensure you don't screw it up, or you take your best guess and try to nail it as best you can, knowing well that it isn't a black & white issue.

In either case, I think we're currently WAY the fuck off the mark on a pretty important matter, partially because of the deadlock we achieve by most people taking extreme viewpoints, largely in accordance with a party line, rather than reasoned solutions.

9/28/2010 5:02:47 PM

WELL AT FIRST I WAS LIKE


BUT THEN I WAS LIKE
message_section.aspx?section=4

9/28/2010 5:05:47 PM

The aborted fetus would take off

9/28/2010 5:06:30 PM

I'm suprised Lady Gaga hasn't worn a silk worm dress yet.

9/28/2010 5:12:44 PM

^6 true. i almost put "i am way over simplifying things" as a disclaimer, but i didn't. i was just trying to point out that these are somethings people DON'T consider when making arguments. of course that isn't you because you aren't making some fundamentalist religious argument and while i get:

Quote :

"I suppose it goes with the territory of leaning right on fiscal matters and generally left on social ones"

and totally understand and agree with a lot of this type of thinking and it SOUNDS great when someone says it or puts it on paper, but in reality that isn't what the "conservative" party is all about. so right now, when voting conservatively for fiscal matters one is also necessarily voting for big government (re: abortion, gay marriage, etc). HOWEVER that isn't really a problem with people having the fiscally conservative/socially liberal ideology, that is a problem with the political system and the fact that we are stuck stuck STUCK in a 2 party system incapable of ever running any viable 3rd candidate.

and i don't think the "legal because it is going to happen anyway" argument should be completely discounted although that is def an oversimplified version of what i was getting at (and my original post was designed that way - i'm not saying you oversimplified). i'd rather have abortions performed in a medically sterile/sound ("sound" is obviously open for interpretation, as for a lot of pro-life an abortion can never be medically sound, but hopefully you get what i'm trying to say) environment, than have illegal back alley abortions (which do more damage to mother/fetus) AND/OR people discarding actual babies after they are born. or having kids end up in the system (which is completely underfunded. and we know that there is a correlation between kids bouncing in and out of foster homes and group homes and propensity for crime and being under educated).

the point is that obviously the social consequences of having abortion made illegal are far greater than i feel like many people consider. but that is also outside the realm of the "where does life begin" argument, too so i guess totally irrelevant in the current convo

[Edited on September 28, 2010 at 5:15 PM. Reason : sloowwwwww rambling]

9/28/2010 5:14:56 PM

Quote :

"and totally understand and agree with a lot of this type of thinking and it SOUNDS great when someone says it or puts it on paper, but in reality that isn't what the "conservative" party is all about. so right now, when voting conservatively for fiscal matters one is also necessarily voting for big government (re: abortion, gay marriage, etc). HOWEVER that isn't really a problem with people having the fiscally conservative/socially liberal ideology, that is a problem with the political system and the fact that we are stuck stuck STUCK in a 2 party system incapable of ever running any viable 3rd candidate. "

Yeah, I do a pretty good bit of abstaining and writing in "no confidence". I haven't voted for a presidential candidate since 2000, for example (well, I voted McCain in the primary, but not in the general election, oddly enough).

In the end, when I vote, it's usually GOP if it's a socially moderate candidate (and still fiscally at least somewhat conservative, which is no longer a given).

9/28/2010 5:20:01 PM

Quote :

"i don't agree, and i see abortion as murder-lite."

But are you one of the pro-lifers who are anti-choice because you equate a pro-choice stance with advocating murder?

Those are the ones who really piss me off.

9/28/2010 5:21:20 PM

I love it when those folks are also in favor of war

9/28/2010 7:21:32 PM

and the death penalty!

9/28/2010 7:22:12 PM

life is sacred!

except on the battlefield
or when the state says it isn't

9/28/2010 7:25:01 PM

Quote :

"and the fact of the matter is, abortion is always going to happen whether legal or illegal."

people are just gonna murder people anyway, whether it's legal or illegal. might as well make it legal.
people are just gonna steal shit anyway, whether it's legal or illegal. might as well make it legal

9/28/2010 7:30:53 PM