2/14/2011 9:12:00 PM

now we have stupid ugly fat pigs





and poorly-selling hybrids with inferior technology

2/14/2011 9:15:21 PM

Yeah, those were the days. I'm mad at Honda for not giving the S2000 more guts and/or a roof, or making anything further of either that platform or the NSX.

That said, the current Si is pretty good also.

2/14/2011 9:15:30 PM

You know how geezers are all like "oh back in the day x made better cars" but really they are just being geezers with selective memories. Well this is not one of those situations.

2/14/2011 9:17:15 PM

"and its the only one with honda's v6 and racing heritage"

Sorry i'd still rather have a turbo sonata

2/14/2011 9:25:41 PM

Quote :

"I'm mad at Honda for not giving the S2000 more guts and/or a roof, or making anything further of either that platform or the NSX. "

2/14/2011 11:07:39 PM

i would love to own a cr-z. i think their IMA is an elegant solution even if it isnt as efficient as the toyota. come on...magnets around the flywheel?? awesome
magnets

[Edited on February 14, 2011 at 11:09 PM. Reason : .]

2/14/2011 11:09:32 PM

I am falling out of love with Honda.

And I've owned / own quite a few...

Time to move on..

2/15/2011 12:11:50 AM

Quote :

"magnets around the flywheel"

Paging MaximaDrvr... I think I know where to find another maxima we can bastardize

2/15/2011 12:15:00 AM

I couldn't care less about 4th gen Civics and NSXs. The 4th Gen is boring. The NSX was awesome in 1991, but the second half of its life it was no longer able to keep up with its competition.

The Type R was great, but the 8th gen Civic Si is pretty good too. I suspect that it would give the Type R a run for its money if it weren't for the extra weight of 19 airbags and all the other junk that is pretty much standard on cars these days. You could always strip that stuff if you're that serious about owning a pure driving machine.

The S2000 end of life is the one you should really be complaining about. If anything deserves a follow up it's that car.

[Edited on February 15, 2011 at 10:23 AM. Reason : s]

2/15/2011 10:22:53 AM

Quote :

""I'm mad at Honda for not giving the S2000 more guts and/or a roof, or making anything further of either that platform or the NSX. ""

i'm also mad at ricers for ruining most of the ITRs that are left.

2/15/2011 11:00:49 AM

^ Don't forget the thieves snatching them up.

2/15/2011 11:02:52 AM

So how many people here ever bought a brand new Honda?

2/15/2011 11:16:38 AM

<---

2/15/2011 12:00:44 PM

remember the del sol?

man that shit was so hawt.

--

seriously though it seems like honda and toyota (to a lesser extent) are coming out with more and more uninspired models while Ford, Hyundai and GM have stepped up their game.

[Edited on February 15, 2011 at 12:23 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2011 12:22:00 PM

Pour out a little liquor for my Honda brethren.

ITR 4 life! Or 4 sale. Haha.

2/15/2011 1:01:38 PM

Quote :

"The Type R was great, but the 8th gen Civic Si is pretty good too. I suspect that it would give the Type R a run for its money if it weren't for the extra weight of 19 airbags and all the other junk that is pretty much standard on cars these days. You could always strip that stuff if you're that serious about owning a pure driving machine."

Considering the Type R came out in '97, do you really think it's asking too much of Honda to increase the power of their sporty models to offset the extra weight that comes with safety equipment? Not like there's some unwritten rule at Honda that the Civic Si can't exceed 200hp.

2/15/2011 1:03:33 PM

Nothing can/will ever beat a type r. A tyte car.

2/15/2011 1:06:06 PM

The current Civic Si and Element (which just went out of production, RIP) are the only Honda models in the past few years that I've been remotely interested in. Previous gen TL's (before the extremely uglified current models) had some appeal, but I was underwhelmed by how they drove.

Ah, for the 90's. Accords and Civics that didn't need to go on a diet, the Prelude still in fine form, the NSX in the prime of its life, the Legend with some style to it, and of course the ITR (and the Integra in general as a desirable machine). Alas.

[Edited on February 15, 2011 at 1:25 PM. Reason : d]

2/15/2011 1:24:28 PM

Honda still makes good stuff. Just gotta know where to look...





[Edited on February 15, 2011 at 1:25 PM. Reason : ha]

2/15/2011 1:24:54 PM

Quote :

"Considering the Type R came out in '97, do you really think it's asking too much of Honda to increase the power of their sporty models to offset the extra weight that comes with safety equipment? Not like there's some unwritten rule at Honda that the Civic Si can't exceed 200hp."

Civic Si has 10 more lb ft of torque and it comes in at 6100 RPM vs 7300 RPM for the Type R.

But I think the real answer to your question is that they can only extract so much horsepower from a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder while keeping the customer's reliability demands intact.

Furthermore, I'm sure the marketing managers over at Honda would have had a fit if the Civic Si matched the S2000 power output. Despite the obvious differences between the two I'm sure it would have cannibalized the more expensive S2k sales a little. Maybe we'll see more power out of the next gen Civic Si now that the S2000 has run its course.

2/15/2011 1:47:07 PM

What they need to do is take the Ariel Atom and turn that into a practical enclosed car without adding too much weight...

2/15/2011 2:04:52 PM

The ~$50k base MSRP already hurts that car bad enough. I can't imagine a lot of people would be in line if they tried to put a shell on it and sell for $60k+. Heck, for a pure toy car like that the open roof is probably preferable to most buyers.

[Edited on February 15, 2011 at 2:31 PM. Reason : s]

2/15/2011 2:30:56 PM

Quote :

"But I think the real answer to your question is that they can only extract so much horsepower from a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder while keeping the customer's reliability demands intact. Furthermore, I'm sure the marketing managers over at Honda would have had a fit if the Civic Si matched the S2000 power output. Despite the obvious differences between the two I'm sure it would have cannibalized the more expensive S2k sales a little. Maybe we'll see more power out of the next gen Civic Si now that the S2000 has run its course."

Honda used to be at the forefront of engine technology. Now they're sitting out of the DI party and all of their larger engines are only SOHC. It's also pretty clear that if they want to continue using small engines they need to introduce turbocharged models. It's the only way they can stay competitive. High performance NA 2.0 liter engines don't get very good gas mileage given the engnine size.

Regarding the Civic Si vs S2000, again there's no "unspoken rule" that the S2000's power couldn't be increased either. They both should have been increased over the years.

2/15/2011 2:38:06 PM

I agree fully on the DI thing and I'm all for Honda adopting turbo options on most of their lineup.

2/15/2011 2:44:27 PM

the problem is people keep buying stupid cars which continues the cycle of stupid cars.

2/15/2011 3:32:41 PM

Quote :

"The ~$50k base MSRP already hurts that car bad enough. I can't imagine a lot of people would be in line if they tried to put a shell on it and sell for $60k+. Heck, for a pure toy car like that the open roof is probably preferable to most buyers."

I was thinking it more as a nsx, dedicated sports car market instead of being just a track whore. At least somewhat of a grocery and babe getter... plus being actually good on the track too.

2/15/2011 4:30:02 PM

C32B

2/15/2011 4:37:20 PM

We are seeing a trend in the industry where the larger engines are getting higher revving and more efficient, while the lower output engines are focusing more on torque through use of a turbo. That's why you are seeing more small direct injected engines like what Hyundai is offering. Then you have a relatively high revving 5.0 from Ford and new presumably higher revving direct injected small block V8's from GM which should be coming out in the next couple years.

High revving 4 cylinders are stuck in the middle. They aren't very fuel efficient for their size and they don't have much torque.

2/15/2011 5:09:51 PM

High rev v8s from bmw is where it's at!

2/15/2011 5:12:37 PM

honda is always really late to switch tech. They used a dizzy over coilpacks forever. I can't bitch too much about their engineering choices because their motors last forever. If only everyone else would engineer a vehicle with longevity in mind. I'll miss out on 10ftlbs to avoid a cracked ringland. Their target market isn't a racer (obviously) and it's probably best they stick to vans and vanilla accords. I agree it's a shame we can't give v10 design team the go ahead. You fund the r&d and take one for the team ray!!!

2/15/2011 5:47:54 PM

My first car in US was a 91 4 speed manual civic hatchback. It was a champ....

2/15/2011 8:29:02 PM

The Type-R had very high output for it's time and they last forever (ironically the distributor is one of the few things that ever break on them). As far as engineering for longevity, see BMW. I am not sure how many of them I've had w/over 200k miles on an unopened motor w/dozens of track days.

Hunter here had an e30 race car (that ran mid pack) w/well over 180k miles and it was raced for several seasons w/out issues if I remember correctly.

So to wrap up:
Honda used to be cool. That's no longer the case, we're sad.

2/15/2011 8:45:48 PM

Why are car company's making big body junk boxes with four bangers. Most of them not force fed.

2/15/2011 11:00:58 PM

^^except the BMW interiors fall apart.

2/16/2011 12:10:26 AM

those old 90s Hondas were good about body electrical problems. You really didn't have a lot of interior switches failing for example.

2/16/2011 12:24:16 AM

Quote :

"^^except the BMW interiors fall apart."

Beaten down examples exist, but that doesn't mean "they fall apart". Now for that whole lack of power/torque thing in Hondas, that's something all of them suffer from.

Here's the interior of my 226k mile 13 year old M3:

Not a singel pixel of a display out, all switches work properly, none of the panels are discolored or delaminating, headliner's not coming down, nada. xoxo

2/16/2011 12:31:01 AM

Wow, that pic really reminds me of how long BMW really committed to that theme. Clearly the same priorities existed between the design of that dash and my '81 733i. BMW really did only in the last decade depart from form. As much as I like the 135i, it really is lacking in that obvious ambience...

2/16/2011 2:57:59 AM

I agree that BMW interiors on average hold up better than a lot of other makes. But that doesn't stop them from having stupid electrical problems.

2/16/2011 7:38:25 AM

I agree, Honda does suck now. Definitely not like the old days.

2/16/2011 10:16:44 AM

The E38 7-Series was considered one of the most unreliable vehicles of that time.

[Edited on February 16, 2011 at 10:54 AM. Reason : were was wha]

2/16/2011 10:52:08 AM

I can't find a link to it anywhere online, but in the current issue of Road & Track there is a small article talking about a new Honda sports car. Their target is apparently the Audi TT?

They're using the JDM Accord's platform and are developing a hybrid power system using a 3.5 liter V6. It will use a version of SH-AWD and have 200-250hp and cost $25,000-$30,000. If these specifications don't change how will this even be faster than a current Accord coupe V6?

Nothing stated above says "sports car" to me so here's the obligatory *yawn* and

[Edited on February 16, 2011 at 11:04 AM. Reason : k]

2/16/2011 11:03:43 AM

Hopefully it's better than their new TSX "sport wagon" that's available only with an automatic...

As for the people saying the new Si being a decent car, I made the mistake of buying one new 3 years ago. So far I've had 3rd gear replaced, the new 3rd gear is still notchy as fuck, the driver's side auto-up screws up when it's between 30-50* outside and humid (goes up to the frame and then rolls back down), & the HVAC fan will occasionally decide that I don't really need airflow and work at about 1/10th the normal speed. Of course, all of this happened after the 36k mile warranty ran out. I'm at 51k now and can't wait to see what happens when the drivetrain warranty runs out. I also took it to a couple of autocrosses before giving up. It was such a let down that I couldn't believe it. I didn't expect it to feel like my old CRX but it's entirely disconnected and feels twice as big as it actually is.

I bought it because I wanted a 4 door that would get me good mileage while still being decently fun (i.e. I could still autocross with it), reliable, and comfortable. I should have either settled for an Accord or gone ahead with a WRX wagon or something. Now that it's paid off, it's going to be gone soon.

2/16/2011 3:19:48 PM

^sorry to hear that man. Have you thought about doing a track event though? You might appreciate it's narrow powerband more on the track where it's not as much of an issue.

2/16/2011 3:41:27 PM

According to some sources the aborted new NSX (see my thread for pics of prototype) is back on track.

The market for expensive luxury cars and supercars is doing great again, and they want in again. The program was cancelled a couple of years ago because of the financial state of the world.

2/16/2011 4:08:54 PM

^^It's not the powerband. Actually, that's one thing that I do like about the car. I've driven pretty much every VTEC powerplant (other than NSX) in anger and the K20 is loads better in power delivery than the others. It's the car itself. It's HEAVY and it feels even heavier than it is. The electric power steering is better than some others out there but it's much more numb than any of the previous Hondas that I've owned except for one of my Accords. The shifter is complete trash compared to the S2000 or a proper shifter in one of the B-series cars. For a normal person, it's probably a great car. I'd probably love it if I wasn't used to autocrossing sub-2000lb. CRXs & Del Sols that were stiff enough to do a pissing dog with the top off.

It just seems like Honda ran out of soul after they redid the S2000 in 2004 and started borrowing from Toyota or something. I've owned somewhere around 13 Hondas and this possibly will be the last one. Now I'm just trying to decide whether to get something like a WRX wagon to have fun & daily drive or a regular wagon/suv & then something just for fun. I'd rather have the fun DD but finding what I want is difficult (awd, fun, & cargo room).

[Edited on February 16, 2011 at 4:14 PM. Reason : .]

2/16/2011 4:10:13 PM

Sounds like you need a WRX wagon (or hatchback if you like the newer ones) so what's the hold up

I agree with you on the other stuff. All the cars I've ever owned have been Honda products but my S2000 is going to be the last.

2/16/2011 5:02:16 PM

^lol, I can't find any. Winter in the foothills/mountains means Subarus are hard to find. WRX wagons even more so. In the last 2 months, I've found one and it was an auto. I wouldn't mind a new one but I just bought a house and I don't want to get another car loan. If I find an old 2.5RS then I'll pick that up instead. I'm probably going to have to wait for spring either way though.

2/16/2011 5:12:22 PM

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=292541417&dealer_id=585500&car_year=2008&doors=&systime=&model=&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&body_style=WAGON&keywordsrep=116117114098111&keywordsfyc=__dHVyYm8%2C__&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=both&distance=100&min_price=&drive=&rdm=1297898930142&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&fuel=&keywords_display=turbo&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=y&make2=&certified=&engine=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=128&transmission=Manual&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=&address=27617&color=&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=&awsp=false&make=SUB&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=9&standard=true

for you ^

Huge interior huge sun roof 250 hp tunable to 300ish

2/16/2011 6:30:50 PM

^ 3 hours away. I do need to go look at something like that though. My buddy runs an Outback Sport with Tarheel & used to run a Forester and keeps trying to get me into one since he enjoys them so much. I just keep getting stuck on the lack of handling ability on-road since the roads here are so much more fun than Raleigh and handling has always been my top driving joy. I probably just need to start acting my age and get something like that instead of trying to compromise since the 996/S2000/etc that I would actually prefer doesn't make sense for my lifestyle. Maybe something like that and starting rally-x is what I need to get me out of the mindset.

2/16/2011 8:17:47 PM