i've been wanting to start this thread for a while, but never had a good conversation starter. Normally people start a thread like this with a link to a recent article or something, but I don't have one if you were hoping for one when you saw the title hopefully somebody else can bring some knowledge to this conversation.

education has always been EXTREMELY important to me. Like most kids I didn't always like school growing up, but I did generally get good grades. More importantly imo, I always had a personal thirst for learning. As an adult, I recognize the importance of education in creating successful and prosperous families and communities.

Clearly there's been a lot of frustration with the state of public education in the US for many years. We always hear about how other countries are constantly out-pacing Americans, even amongst the best and brightest. The US spends far more per pupil than other countries, and are not seeing results. The reasons are vast and many, and some of the discussion tends to get very politicized, with plenty of blame to go around to students, parents, teachers, administrators and legislators.


Rather than political debate, I'm interested in learning about the research out there and experiments that aim to remake the educational process for a modern generation of learners. I am under no illusions that the public education system will go through any kind of drastic overhaul any time soon, so I'm hopeful through experimentation in private and charter schools we can start to find more effective ways of educating kids for those who choose to seek it out. I have a particular interest in the use of technology to facilitate self-directed learning, and if anybody knows of any schools that focus on this, I'd love to see more information.

3/4/2011 1:51:08 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8601207.stm

[Edited on March 4, 2011 at 1:54 PM. Reason : scandinavia is better at pretty much everything]

3/4/2011 1:52:57 PM

Quote :

"scandanavia is better at pretty much everything"

3/4/2011 1:54:21 PM

America is still the best place for making money though.

That is why a lot of scandys will grow up with a european education, and then move their family and kids over here to make money while at the same time submitting their kids to an inferior educational system.

3/4/2011 2:01:30 PM

^ proof?

3/4/2011 2:08:26 PM

Having lived, studied, and worked in scandinavia, I can attest that much of the praise is based on reputation. In my opinion, much of it is smoke and mirrors.

^^ I'd love to see some evidence to back that up too. Among the people that I interacted with most often, salaries tended to be higher paying compared to those same jobs here in the US. The tax burden tended to bring them in line though. I'm sure that a lot of people from this region come to America for potential riches but I highly doubt that it is anywhere nearing a substantial amount of the population. In fact, I'd guess that most scandinavians remain at home during their prime child bearing years due to the very generous benefits afforded to new parents.

3/4/2011 2:18:05 PM

I think the education is out there in schools if kids want to learn. Problem is many kids don't want to learn these days because it isn't cool to, and kids who want to learn get made fun of. There is also the drugs and crime and gangs in many cities which prevent many kids from going to school and/or learning.

3/4/2011 2:33:26 PM

Watch "Waiting for Superman". Its on Netflix Instant Watch. There are some very cool and innovative ideas for new schools that are getting outstanding results. Most of the documentary is focused on how much our school system sucks, and partly why, but it also talks about great pathways that are out there.

One is a Kipps school or something

3/4/2011 2:36:15 PM

My gf teaches in one of the worst states for public education (South Carolina)...and from seeing it up close...it's pretty dismal.

I could go into numerous details, but the most recent that pretty much sums it up is that one of the first budget cuts they're proposing for next year is shorten the school year...and it's likely to go through. That honestly blows my mind.

3/4/2011 2:45:47 PM

The direction that schools are headed (from personal experience) teachers are being held responsible for more and more, while being given less with decreasing amounts of authority added on.
I can't begin to tell you of all the paperwork and documentation and acronyms we have to explain away problems as opposed to fixing them.

There are a lot of really good teachers that are leaving the field (anywhere from first year, to one year from retirement) because they are tired of the new paperwork, documentation, and lack of discipline in schools.

In our school system, we are teaching kids that grades and deadlines don't matter, while expecting the teachers to become "highly qualified" on an ever changing rubric. It doesn't help that the administration can never make up its mind, or is in a constant state of turnover.

Then we have the .gov agencies that are cutting spending in schools while growing the department of useless shit.

3/4/2011 2:46:47 PM

Quote :

"The direction that schools are headed (from personal experience) teachers are being held responsible for more and more, while being given less with decreasing amounts of authority added on."

That's about as good a one sentence summary as you're going to get.

3/4/2011 3:00:32 PM

Quote :

"What do high school dropouts say that schools should do better? Improve teaching and curricula to make school more relevant and engaging and enhance the connection between school and work: Four out of five (81 percent) said there should be more opportunities for real-world learning and some in the focus groups called for more experiential learning. They said students need to see the connection between school and getting a good job. Improve instruction, and access to supports, for struggling students: Four out of five (81 percent) wanted better teachers and 3/4 wanted smaller classes with more individualized instruction. More than half (55 percent) felt that more needed to be done to help students who had problems learning, and 70 percent believed more tutoring, summer school and extra time with teachers would have improved their chances of graduating. Build a school climate that fosters academics: Seven in ten favored increasing supervision in school and more than three in five (62 percent) felt more classroom discipline was necessary. More than half (57 percent) felt their schools did not do enough to help students feel safe from violence. Seven in ten (71 percent) said their schools did not do enough to make school interesting. Ensure that students have a strong relationship with at least one adult in the school: While two-thirds (65 percent) said there was a staff member or teacher who cared about their success, only 56 percent said they could go to a staff person for school problems and just two-fifths (41 percent) had someone in school to talk to about personal problems. More than three out of five (62 percent) said their school needed to do more to help students with problems outside of class. Seven in ten favored more parental involvement. Improve the communication between parents and schools: Seventy-one percent of young people surveyed felt that one of the keys to keeping students in school was to have better communication between the parents and the school, and increasing parental involvement in their child’s education. Less than half said their school contacted their parents or themselves when they were absent (47 percent) or when they dropped out (48 percent)."

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/united-states/Documents/TheSilentEpidemic3-06Final.pdf

[Edited on March 4, 2011 at 3:33 PM. Reason : /b]

3/4/2011 3:07:32 PM

^Look, if you're going to bold for emphasis, it has to be <30% of the text. Then it all just blurs together and actually makes it harder to read.

3/4/2011 3:09:38 PM

i want it to pop

3/4/2011 3:12:42 PM

My wife and I have decided that we aren't even going to bother with public schools. My oldest will be in kindergarten next year and we have committed to private school (currently Montessori and it will probably stay that way until no longer viable). We've decided that if we have to sell our house and live somewhere smaller or I have to take on a second job to make it work, that their education is much more important than almost any creature comfort.

3/4/2011 3:39:52 PM

Yup, if I ever have children they will be attending a private school. No reason to subject them to the ass backwards bullshit of public school.

3/4/2011 3:44:08 PM

Quote :

"Watch "Waiting for Superman""

He already did.

I am looking into Montessori schools for Maya even though I am in the process of becoming a public school teacher.

3/4/2011 3:46:48 PM

1) National standard instead of each county/district/state having their own standards.
2) Instead of teachers with degree in education, promoting teachers with degrees in specific subject areas to teach the subject

3/4/2011 3:51:44 PM

while it would be irresponsible (and downright wrong) to characterize all public schools and/or all private schools as being the same in their respective category, i think there CAN be benefits (and downsides) to the education received in both

option 1: move somewhere the public schools are actually good (preferable)

option 2: failing to achive option 1 (because of job or whatever), private school

3/4/2011 3:54:40 PM

^^^ its more common than you might think. my gf went to Cardinal Gibbons (private catholic school near the RBC center) while her mom taught at Garner High School

3/4/2011 4:07:11 PM

Teaching, the curriculum, and a lot of other things about public education are overly politicized. Rather than removing the political aspects of things (election of superintendent... why?) we continue to politicize more and more and focus less on what is actually effective or important.

Shit is only going to get worse as more kids get pulled from private school, since generally speaking those are your higher performers to start with.

3/4/2011 4:12:13 PM

Quote :

"We've decided that if we have to sell our house and live somewhere smaller or I have to take on a second job to make it work, that their education is much more important than almost any creature comfort."

That's nuts. I went to public school and have a great degree and job. I think a lot of it has to do with poor parenting and how kids are raised.

3/4/2011 4:23:46 PM

^really depends on which public schools your kids go to tbh

3/4/2011 4:30:07 PM

It also has to do with school culture, but parenting does have a lot to do with it.
I stumbled upon this a couple days ago:

If you want your kid to go to college, then send them to a school where the social environment is to succeed.
Sending kids to a gang infested school will mean that the kids will have criminals for peers and they will adapt to that social environment by adopting the dress, mannerisms, and philosophy of their peers.
They will be going to prison rather than college.

[Edited on March 4, 2011 at 4:36 PM. Reason : ,]

3/4/2011 4:35:56 PM

^^ Creedmoor, NC Hardly creme of the crop as far as public schools go.

3/4/2011 4:45:31 PM

Quote :

"Having lived, studied, and worked in scandinavia, I can attest that much of the praise is based on reputation. In my opinion, much of it is smoke and mirrors. "

I found this to be the case in a lot of Asia as well. Every country has its dumb kids

I am highly interested in sending my kids to Combs Elementary School for their leadership program. I think if I had done something like it in elementary school I wouldn't be such a slacker lol. But by the time I have elementary school aged kids Wake County will probably have completely screwed up the magnet program

http://www.stephencovey.com/blog/?tag=ab-combs-elementary-school

3/4/2011 5:14:51 PM

on the parental aspect. Just read this today which suggests the mom's education level plays a huge part in how a kid performs on tests even at the age of 3!



study linked in this post:
http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/03/james-heckman-education-achievement-gap

[Edited on March 4, 2011 at 5:27 PM. Reason : :::::::::]

3/4/2011 5:26:22 PM

K. Drum has had a few posts in the past month talking about US schools. The noise we keep hearing about how sucky they are keeps coming exclusively from conservatives. And this has a whole lot less to do with how we are actually doing and a whole lot more about attacking public sector unions who vote democrat. Thats the real tragedy in all this is the Republicans only care about education in so much as how it relates to them getting elected and not what it means to our nation as a whole.

This one in particular
http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/02/american-schools-are-better-50-years-ago

3/4/2011 5:41:37 PM

^^ Makes sense. Higher educated women are more likely to read to their kids, play educational games with them, etc.

3/4/2011 5:46:14 PM

Quote :

"I am highly interested in sending my kids to Combs Elementary School for their leadership program."

we are primarily focusing our current house hunting to be in their district for this very reason and their overall achievement. it's a great elementary school.

3/4/2011 5:58:04 PM

I went to a good public school district in PA. Then I got to NC and was like, wtf when I heard about abysmal county school systems. I'm not planning on kids at the moment but damn, I feel sorry for the parents that have to live with the current education system.

If I ever become an official educator (besides teaching people how to fix their bikes), I would want to explore more progressive ideas of teaching kids: smaller classroom sizes, experiential learning, and interdisciplinary studying.

How successful are school types like Montessori, new school, etc.?

3/4/2011 8:34:01 PM

i'll go back and read the thread in a bit to see what others have said. But the OP made me want to at least say this much:

Quote :

"We always hear about how other countries are constantly out-pacing Americans, even amongst the best and brightest."

This is such a tough thing to discuss.

Comparing performance based on scores is tough enough to do within the U.S., it's extremely difficult to evaluate education based on test scores between countries. The problem is that there are not standard tests -- curriculum differs state to state, the tests aren't even assessing the same learning objectives. You can't take a 95% in mass. and assume that it's better than the 90% an NC student received on some end of year test. You have to look at what they're teaching, what they're testing, how rigorous the test is, how valid the test is, etc. Then you have to ask if the objectives being assessed on either test are in fact important in your opinion.

Now take that same problem and compound it even further when you try to compare "scores" of U.S. students to scores of students in other countries. Then you also have to consider that in some countries, only the top students actually progress. Imagine if we only accepted the top 20% of our students into our high schools.. Don't you think our scores would be better in that case?

Quote :

"I have a particular interest in the use of technology to facilitate self-directed learning, and if anybody knows of any schools that focus on this, I'd love to see more information."

What do you mean exactly? Are you asking about a montessori based education? Or like self-paced learning via courseware? I can tell you about schools using electronic based courses. But you run into all of the same problems, inconsistent polices and practices, and it largely depends on student motivation. If you're studying something on your own, you have to want to learn. The students who want to learn are those who are likely to do well in any educational setting (self-taught, self-paced, teacher-led, whatever). It's not tough to teach kids who are smart and want to learn.

Quote :

"There are some very cool and innovative ideas for new schools that are getting outstanding results. "

A lot of those schools focus on culture -- they focus on learning, and the importance of learning, the importance of doing their work, etc. And yes, the KIPP schools do well. They also have significantly longer school days than traditional schools. A considerable more amount of work, etc. I'm not saying that is good or bad. But it's a difference. And like anything, there are pros and cons.

Quote :

"1) National standard instead of each county/district/state having their own standards. 2) Instead of teachers with degree in education, promoting teachers with degrees in specific subject areas to teach the subject"

1 - National standards are coming to NC. And a lot of states are moving toward them. I don't think that this will actually improve education in and of itself. However, it will make it easier to measure performance and compare states to other states. Ultimately, I think that looking at what this state or that state, etc. is doing to getting certain result can help improve other states. But some states/counties/districts don't need it imo.

2 - ehh, no thanks. You may be able to do calculus as well as anyone, that doesn't mean you can teach it (or anything else) well.

I'm not sure if you know how education majors work or not. But most of the education majors at NCSU are B.S. degrees. Education majors don't just study education then on the day they're hired decide what subject matter they want to teach. And there's more to teaching, teaching well anyhow, than knowing the subject matter. They have to take a considerable amount of courses in their content area and a considerable amount of courses in education.

Quote :

"smaller classroom sizes, experiential learning, and interdisciplinary studying."

Those are all good idea. Some depend greatly on funding though --- and right now school systems across the country are cutting funding.

I've seen interdisciplinary studying, it was exciting to see and my understanding is that it improved performance. Centennial Campus Middle School did it for a while (may still). Grade level teachers got together and discussed their current curriculum and how to incorporate it into each other's classes. --- I observed students in an 8th grade dance elective class creating and practicing dances that demonstrated mitosis (which is what they were studying in their life sciences class at the time)... pretty cool imo.

[Edited on March 4, 2011 at 9:51 PM. Reason : .]

3/4/2011 9:39:33 PM

http://newschoolsproject.org/our-strategy/design-principles

My wife works at one of these schools. Pretty amazing stuff going on there.

3/4/2011 10:07:26 PM

I guess I'm lucky that I am a (relatively) smart individual in math and different sciences and MrsCake is great at history, english, literature, and other "humanities". I feel like collectively, we can supplement whatever education our children receive, filling gaps, and try to encourage them to question, explore, and learn.

I mean, I guess we care to do that, which is one of the biggest things. I've seen parents who just don't give a shit, who don't have any expectations for their children, and don't hold them to any standards when it comes to school. MrsCake has some horror stories, I'm sure.

But MaximaDrvr hit the nail on the head. The job has become paperwork, calling parents, giving kids extensions on work they didn't turn in, basically giving them countless chances to pass if they want. There's no discipline, no deadlines, no responsibility. Teachers are expected to do everything to "pass" kids who really shouldn't so the school's numbers don't look poor. She can correct me if I'm wrong on some of this, but this is what I've seen while she was a public school teacher.

3/5/2011 9:36:00 AM

Quote :

"we are primarily focusing our current house hunting to be in their district for this very reason and their overall achievement. it's a great elementary school. "

What area is considered their district? I wonder if that district is fairly stable or if it gets changed around a lot for bussing purposes.

3/5/2011 9:56:24 AM

Quote :

"smaller classroom sizes, experiential learning, and interdisciplinary studying."

that's the alpha and omega

but as was said

Quote :

"funding"

3/5/2011 11:05:30 AM

Quote :

"What area is considered their district? I wonder if that district is fairly stable or if it gets changed around a lot for bussing purposes."

off Kaplan

440--Athens--Lake Dam--440--up Trailwood cutting Avent Ferry in half--Up Gorman--to Western and back to 440.

It's kinda difficult to get to, but if you go to Hot Pads and look for a house in that area, click on info, then on Combs and a highlighted area will pop up where you can see it more clearly. Not sure how much they are affected by bussing at all.

3/6/2011 9:35:28 AM

Yeah it looks like their map changed A LOT between last school year and this school year. I'd definitely look only at houses based on the previous school year since that seems to be a much smaller area they're pulling from, so probably less likely to change in future years than the current map.

You can see the maps here: http://www.wcpss.net/school-directory/376.html

This house is in the district if you don't mind a fixer upper
http://www.trulia.com/property/1088386354-3814-Marcom-St-Raleigh-NC-27606

[Edited on March 6, 2011 at 10:54 AM. Reason : a]

3/6/2011 10:49:32 AM

def no fixer uppers with a baby on the way...and we need more sq footage than that...but thanks

3/6/2011 11:12:26 AM

My sister teaches 9th grade and her stories just depress me. Lots of her kids are barely literate.

She recently told me about how difficult it is for her to get markers and stuff for class ... lots of BS paperwork, supply lady making you wait and giving you the stink eye, etc. I'm in the Navy and when I need office supplies, I bring a box to the supply counter and they give me as much stuff as I can carry. Not that I ever doubted where Uncle Sam's spending priorities are, but damn!

3/6/2011 2:08:53 PM

was talking to someone in Singapore just days ago, and they said that education funding was a part of their economic plan.

education, as a part of the economic plan. think about it

3/6/2011 2:25:39 PM

Quote :

"There are a lot of really good teachers that are leaving the field (anywhere from first year, to one year from retirement) because they are tired of the new paperwork, documentation, and lack of discipline in schools."

Let's not forget all those people with a passion for the subject who'd rather stay the fuck away from the public-school system

like me

3/6/2011 2:59:45 PM

Yeah huge loss right there.

3/6/2011 3:57:14 PM

Quote :

"That's nuts. I went to public school and have a great degree and job. I think a lot of it has to do with poor parenting and how kids are raised."

Yeah so did I. Went to a NC public school in the boonies and managed to graduate college and get good employment. Doesn't mean times haven't changed since then. Look at what has happened in Wake County school in just the past couple years...

Also I don't see it as a problem that I want better for my kids than I had. My parents did what they could but if I can put myself in the position to give my kids every advantage possible then I'm going to do it. Obviously the ideal (and actual so far) is to send them to private school and have a nice house, etc, but if I have to make a trade off at some point, education is way down the list of things to cut.

3/7/2011 10:05:50 AM

Quote :

"It's kinda difficult to get to, but if you go to Hot Pads and look for a house in that area, click on info, then on Combs and a highlighted area will pop up where you can see it more clearly. Not sure how much they are affected by bussing at all. "

Keep in mind Combs is a magnet school so even if you don't end up in the district, you can at least apply for it.

3/7/2011 12:35:58 PM

if you have a smart kid and good parents, a low-performing school can be a good thing. (it was for me!) I was able to be #2 in my class with very minimal effort.

3/7/2011 1:25:35 PM

Quote :

"That's nuts. I went to public school and have a great degree and job. I think a lot of it has to do with poor parenting and how kids are raised."

Decent schooling use to be able to somewhat make up for less than average parenting in the past...but shitty public education can't help out anymore.

So it's rather unfortunate when you have to have awesome parents and be born into a great environment in order to succeed.

I still think I'll be fine with sending my kid to a public school, but only certain ones. I was around some crazy "public-school shit" growing up, but I've seen and heard of a lot worse down here. I personally prefer public schools for the "exposing kids to a real world-type environment" aspect...and hopefully I can make up for the academic deficiencies.

3/7/2011 1:31:59 PM

I know this thread is for like people with actual knowledge and research, but since everybody's just talking, I figured I'd do the same.

I think all parents should work to supplement their children's education. I mean this obviously in an academic sense. If your child is way ahead in a particular area, then you can give them advanced instruction at home. If they're way behind on something, then you can give them extra instruction at home.

But, more importantly, I think I mean this in a non-academic sense. Museums, daytrips, zoos, farms, nature walks/hikes, boat rides, crafting events, concerts/plays, fairs, and on and on and on... It takes some money and even more time. And I think it means being a little harried/unconventional--forget trivial stuff like keeping your house clean or having your boring lawn in perfect condition. The extra time you have should be spent doing kickass, awesome stuff with your kids. I wish parents didn't have to work so much.

3/7/2011 1:32:23 PM

The fact that I've been successful was completely in spite of the public education system I went through. Like many people, I was in an area benefited by the existence of a university, and every good teacher I had was affiliated in the past with it in some way. The "system" didn't help the good people in the system and fought to squash out any excellence there was. The bad teachers made all the students question the competence of the very nation we live in, and I think that the persistent yelling at the class by some teachers had a lasting effect on the students, the fact that such a teacher couldn't get expunged out, and still can't, is pretty much accepted.

I think the idea of a public education system for all, and as a great melting pot for the children of the nation, is central to an egalitarian society. So on the most fundamental principles I support having such an education system. But it only worked in spite of the organization whenever it did work, and it's now nothing more than a leverage point in the collapse of the US Empire. In 10 years the kids coming out of the system will all have diabetes, the fraction having the basic skills they need will be much lower, and they will be indoctrinated by a system so far into failure that their ability to become productive members of society will probably be jeopardized.

I almost feel "why bother?". Nothing will be fixed, and the world that they're coming out of school into will probably be falling apart too. Isn't this just one of our last hurrahs as the post WW2, US dominated age of history comes to a close? Aren't we going from:

"Are our children learning"
to
"Are our schools preparing our children for the zombie Apocalypse?"

3/7/2011 2:43:02 PM

i did both private and public schools and while i agree that our education system needs work i don't think that public schools fail everyone. if you are an involved parent with a good education and you instil that sense of entitelement* into your children they are going to find enough likeminded students in public school and will do just fine in academically gifted/honors/AP courses. there are plenty of good public schools to consider if you are able to move around.

*entitelement has a negative connotation, but I used it for a reason. By having a sense of entitlment I mean that as a child feeling comfortable asserting yourself among your superiors and interacting with adults. It translates well to future success and is one of the traits that is different between children of well educated parents and children of less educated parents. Malcom Gladwell does a good job explaining this in the book Outliers.

3/7/2011 3:14:11 PM