So I am an EI, but work as a Project Manager. Due to some restructuring, my title is probably going to change to Project Engineer. I do not work under a PE and am worried that this title will imply I am an engineer. My responsibilities fit a Project Engineer, but I don't want to run afoul of the Board of Examiners in case I decide to become a PE and move more into that. I'm probably just gonna ask them to keep my current title or just not list it on my card/ email sig.

How does North Carolina deal with this?

N.C.G.S. § 89C-3 (6)a:

Quote :

"Any service or creative work, the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training, and experience, in the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences to such services or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, and design of engineering works and systems, planning the use of land and water, engineering surveys, and the observation of construction for the purposes of assuring compliance with drawings and specifications, including the consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, and design for either private or public use, in connection with any utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, work systems, projects, and industrial or consumer products or equipment of a mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic or thermal nature, insofar as they involve safeguarding life, health or property, and including such other professional services as may be necessary to the planning, progress and completion of any engineering services. A person shall be construed to practice or offer to practice engineering, within the meaning and intent of this Chapter, who practices any branch of the profession of engineering; or who, by verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card, or in any other way represents the person to be a professional engineer, or through the use of some other title implies that the person is a professional engineer or that the person is licensed under this Chapter; or who holds the person out as able to perform, or who does perform any engineering service or work not exempted by this Chapter, or any other service designated by the practitioner which is recognized as engineering."

N.C.G.S.§ 89C-23.

Quote :

"Unlawful to practice engineering or land surveying without licensure; unlawful use of title or terms; penalties; Attorney General to be legal adviser. Any person who shall practice, or offer to practice, engineering or land surveying in this State without first being licensed in accordance with the provisions of this Chapter, or any person, firm, partnership, organization, association, corporation, or other entity using or employing the words "engineer" or "engineering" or "professional engineer" or "professional engineering" or "land surveyor" or "land surveying," or any modification or derivative of those words in its name or form of business or activity except as licensed under this Chapter or in pursuit of activities exempted by this Chapter, or any person presenting or attempting to use the certificate of licensure or the seal of another, or any person who shall give any false or forged evidence of any kind to the Board or to any member of the Board in obtaining or attempting to obtain a certificate of licensure, or any person who shall falsely impersonate any other licensee of like or different name, or any person who shall attempt to use an expired or revoked or nonexistent certificate of licensure, or who shall practice or offer to practice when not qualified, or any person who falsely claims that the person is registered under this Chapter, or any person who shall violate any of the provisions of this Chapter, in addition to injunctive procedures set out hereinbefore, shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. In no event shall there be representation of or holding out to the public of any engineering expertise by unlicensed persons. It shall be the duty of all duly constituted officers of the State and all political subdivisions of the State to enforce the provisions of this Chapter and to prosecute any persons violating them."

5/23/2011 10:27:05 AM

Interesting problem and I can't say I have any real useful advice.

The sniff test to me would be that the majority of engineering majors have the title of "engineer", despite not getting a PE, in non public work fields. It would seem the intent of the statue is to prevent people from misrepresenting their status. I would hope people in the field would know the difference between a generic "engineer" and a PE.

5/23/2011 10:39:57 AM

Unless you are practicing as a type of engineer that does require a PE, you are worried over nothing.

I mean, there are countless Software Engineers out there.

When I did tech support, my title was Customer Support Engineer.

Engineer, in this day and age, pretty much means any job that is even tangentially related to some technical field.

5/23/2011 10:48:44 AM

sometimes not even that.

custodial engineer - janitor
sanitation engineer - garbage man

5/23/2011 10:52:51 AM

Is your degree in engineering? I held the job titles Quality Engineer, Validation Engineer, and Tech Transfer Engineer in the pharma industry. My degree in is CHE, but I never took the FE. I can't imagine it really matters.

5/23/2011 10:53:07 AM

^^

do they really do that? I've heard of that before, but I assumed it was just hyperbole to be funny.

5/23/2011 10:59:56 AM

well i do a lot of "observation of construction for the purposes of assuring compliance with drawings and specifications" but so do other people without engineering degrees so I guess "the adequate performance of which" does not require "engineering education, training, and experience"

however i would be "using or employing the word 'engineer'"

however, as i was typing this i saw:

Quote :

"§ 89C-25. Limitations on application of Chapter. This Chapter shall not be construed to prevent or affect: (1) The practice of architecture, landscape architecture, or contracting or any other legally recognized profession or trade."

Work for a contracting company, getting my GC next year. Looks like my industry is exempt.

Quote :

"Is your degree in engineering?"

One of them, and I have passed the FE. I am an EI.


[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 11:03 AM. Reason : .\]

5/23/2011 11:01:26 AM

Ah, engineers. Engineers love nothing more than to tell you just what kind of engineer they are. Other people don't care. There's three types of engineers. You're either one or the other. Don't make things more complicated than they should be.

5/23/2011 11:04:49 AM

I'm not really worried about the legal aspects, I think I'm pretty covered, but I don't want to do anything that will piss off the Board of Examiners if I decided to become a PE.

I'm curious if there is input from someone in a civil or mechanical field. The PE designation and the NCEES may not be that important in a software field, but in the core disciplines its still relevant.

5/23/2011 11:07:49 AM

aha that last one is the default image in my head for all wolfweb dudes who have no pictures.

Example: BubbleBobble

5/23/2011 11:08:38 AM

Quote :

"So I am an EI, but work as a Project Manager. Due to some restructuring, my title is probably going to change to Project Engineer. I do not work under a PE and am worried that this title will imply I am an engineer. My responsibilities fit a Project Engineer, but I don't want to run afoul of the Board of Examiners in case I decide to become a PE and move more into that. I'm probably just gonna ask them to keep my current title or just not list it on my card/ email sig. "

you are over-thinking this and over-worrying about this. A job-title is just that. Each company has their own titles and tons of jobs (as demonstrated in this thread) use "engineer" in the title. That is different than saying you are a PE or performing duties that only a PE can perform. Project Engineer is a common title at all engineering companies including companies/industries where having a PE license is not required to be in that position on a project.

I work at an EPC firm and I would say that 90% of our Project Engineers have PEs but there are some who only have engineering degrees and never got their PE. They are still engineers and I don't see any problem with them having the title of Project Engineer.

I wouldn't worry about this for a PE exam application. If you are an engineer at my company (as in working in a true engineering discipline with a degree in engineering) you have engineer in your title even if you don't have a PE. I am an Associate Design Engineer II at the moment and the positions that were on my PE application all had engineer in the title even though I obviously don't have my PE yet.


[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 11:20 AM. Reason : .]

5/23/2011 11:16:09 AM

as long as you are not signing drawings as a professional engineer (which would pretty much entail that you make your own professional seal) then you should be fine.

5/23/2011 11:29:28 AM

^^ one of the exemptions is for working under the supervision of a PE. that was my concern, having an engineering title and not working under a PE.

5/23/2011 11:31:57 AM

concern from what standpoint? I'm assuming you are just talking PE Exam registration at this point? When you register for the exam you need supervisors to sign off (like a higher-up boss) as well as 5 references, 3 of which must be PEs and they prefer your supervisor(s) to be PEs.

For example, from the SC instructions:

Years of experience requirement:

Quote :

"At the time an application is filed, an applicant must have four (4) years of qualifying engineering experience after the date of graduation from the entry-level degree program. Experience cannot be anticipated; co-op experience while in school will not be accepted. In counting years of experience, the Board may allow one year of credit for satisfactory completion of a Master’s degree in engineering or maximum credit of two years for satisfactory completion of the doctorate level degree in engineering [Section 40-22-220(C)]. "

Supervision Requirements:

Quote :

"Employer Name and Mailing Address. List name, title, company name and complete mailing address of person who can verify experience listed, preferably the person to whom you report(ed) and who should be a registered engineer. If the experience was not gained under the direct supervision of a registered professional engineer, then indirect supervision should be explained with clarification of the degree of supervision received. Please also refer to Regulation 49-200(B)(3)(b): “Experience must be gained by working under the supervision of a legally practicing engineer or on engineering assignments which exhibit an increasing standard of assigned responsibility.” Do not list last-known addresses; provide only current mailing addresses. If a reference is unavailable to verify an engagement, a statement to that effect should be included instead of contact information. The Board must be able to verify at least the minimum experience requirement, but verification should be obtained for as much experience as possible. Individuals who verify work experience may not be used as a personal reference."

[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 11:41 AM. Reason : .]

5/23/2011 11:39:18 AM

Just put "EI" after your name on your cards and email sig or wherever and there's no confusion.

5/23/2011 11:46:16 AM

Quote :

"concern from what standpoint?"

per NC general statutes, its appropriate to call yourself an engineer, even if you are not licensed, in accordance to various exemptions. one of the exemptions is working under the supervision of a PE. If I worked under a PE there wouldn't be any discussion, but I don't. I guess I have exemption for being a contractor, but its not as clear.

5/23/2011 11:59:29 AM

^^This should work. I worked on a project where this guy was the senior project engineer and didn't have PE or EI after his name. Essential he would interface between the engineers and the contractors. He did have his bachelors and masters in engineering though.

If you're really concerned about it, I would check (or email) http://www.ncbels.org instead of NC General Statutes.

[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 12:03 PM. Reason : -]

5/23/2011 12:03:09 PM

^that actually describes my position pretty well. and i'm waiting for a call back from them already.

5/23/2011 12:05:48 PM

texas toast butter application engineer

5/23/2011 12:07:43 PM

I worked under the titles 'Design Engineer' and the 'Project Engineer' for 4 years as an EI.

I am now a PE, but I never experienced any issues with that beforehand. I think it's fairly common to have the title 'engineer' in your name prior to obtaining a PE, and I don't think it's widely enforced....especially if you write 'Joe Schmoe, E.I.' right above your title

non-issue, imo. At least in my case and all of my co-workers who most have 'engineer' in thier title with no PE license

5/23/2011 1:07:32 PM

were you working under a PE? because that is a different case were its very clear that its appropriate.

[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 1:19 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2011 1:13:42 PM

I am a PE and probably would not accept a title if I was in your position with the word engineer in it if you are not working in engineering under a PE. Can you create another title like project manager that would describe your position adequately?

I don't think that anyone at my office would report an individual for doing this but since you are in the construction industry all you have to do is find one engineer who is offended by the use of the title. If you are reported to NCBELS then they can make your life a lot more difficult if you ever want to take the test.

I have heard a few times of companies with "engineer" in their name without any PEs (or really any engineering staff at all for that matter) being reported and assessed with fines (rather large ones). Since you work in the construction industry and that is main area where the title associates you with having the professional license (or working directly under someone who does) it doesn't seem worth it to walk along a grey line. But all of this assumes someday you want to get your PE, if not then I don't think they are going to hit a young EIT with a stiff penalty. Let us know what NCBELS officially says.

5/23/2011 3:25:09 PM

I work in construction and when I started my company stuck E.I. after my name and gave me a title of mechanical engineer. I'm working in Florida and wasn't really that worried about it since I had the E.I. After my name and could make a case that I wasn't trying to pass myself off as a PE. However I did eventually ask them to change my title to Mechanical Engineer Intern just to be safe. I have my PE now so I don't have to worry about it anymore.

5/23/2011 3:38:19 PM

My vote goes for the E.I. designation after your name or title. I've seen most non-PE engineers from the power or chemical industry do this if they were in the true mod, mechanical, or electrical depts and were in management roles.

5/23/2011 3:46:08 PM

rbrthwrd what company do you work for if you don't mind me asking? You can PM if you want, we seem to be in the same field.

5/23/2011 3:46:19 PM

I really think it is a lot less of a concern than the OP is making this out to be. Not trying to be rude even in the slightest, just trying to smooth out any uneasiness they have with the topic at hand.

Working "under" a PE is pretty loosely interpreted. Indirect supervision is acceptable depending on your duties and the projects etc. Unless you have no one on the project that you report to who is a PE you are fine.

I understand the concern but don't really feel there is any problem legally or on the PE path as this is a pretty common thing imo. I have had friends who had to really stretch to find their 3 PE references because their company hardly had any he had dealt with directly and he certainly had only loosely worked "under" them but he had no questions asked when applying for the exam. Obviously PEs who don't know you very well probably wouldn't/shouldn't vouch for you as a reference anyway, so as far as the PE track, I wouldn't worry unless you can't think of 3 PE's who would vouch for you as a reference.

As for the EI/EIT after your name, I'm not a big fan of it but that's just me. Doesn't mean much to me. I figure in the industry you're either a PE or not. Beyond that it doesn't really matter if you are an EI/EIT.

[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 3:58 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2011 3:52:12 PM

We don't have a PE in-house at this time.

[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 4:23 PM. Reason : We may if we go into Design/ Build but right now we use outside firms]

5/23/2011 4:23:05 PM

depends on the exact nature of your work but as a contractor you can use PEs as references who were representing the company you were contracted with etc. I don't know all the details of this since I didn't have to go that route but I do know there are options like that. NCBELS should be able to clarify.

5/23/2011 4:54:43 PM

College message board posting engineer

5/23/2011 5:13:54 PM

Oddly enough, most of the sandwich artists at Subway were actually art majors, so there's some truth in that.

5/24/2011 3:26:39 PM

On a related note, what's the time limit on having an EI? I took and passed the FE in April/May of 2010, and don't work under a PE - probably never wll.

5/24/2011 3:29:09 PM

the only limit is how long you can remember stuff, technically you don't even really need to pass the FE to become a PE

5/24/2011 3:37:43 PM

From my experience, if you had a PE, you made sure to put it into your title. Had to flaunt it and all that good stuff. If I was dealing with an engineer that didn't put it in his title, I would assume that he didn't have it.

Don't see too many instances where a someone with a PE isn't attaching the PE to his name unless that person is in upper-management and his role doesn't depend on that designation.

5/24/2011 6:55:55 PM

I know if you are forming a new company, you can't have words such as "Engineering" or "Insurance" etc in the name of the company if you don't have certain licenses and qualifications

But as far as internal titles in a company, I didn't know there were any requirements

5/24/2011 7:00:07 PM

Quote :

"On a related note, what's the time limit on having an EI? I took and passed the FE in April/May of 2010, and don't work under a PE - probably never wll."

time limit as in how long you will remain an EI? or time limit as in how long you have to wait to take the PE exam?

You should be an EI forever after you pass the FE exam. You can sit for your PE exam after you have graduated from college, passed the FE exam and have at least 4 years of work experience under a PE. Or you can go the long route and work something like 8 years not under a professional engineer and sit to take the PE. Its all spelled out on the ncbels.org website

5/24/2011 7:26:03 PM

Quote :

"were you working under a PE? because that is a different case were its very clear that its appropriate. "

Ah, you are correct. I didn't think about that.....

I was working directly under/with about 10 licenced PE's.

I apparently missed that in your original post.

Did ncbels ever call you back? I'd be interested in what they had to say. If there is no one else you work with that is licensed adding 'engineer' to your title might imply you are a licensed engineer. I definitely see your point now.... Depending on what they say, I would discuss it with your company

I should probably know the answer to this. I studied all this crap for the PE just over a year ago

[Edited on May 24, 2011 at 8:40 PM. Reason : ]

5/24/2011 8:34:02 PM