After reading these two threads:

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=613549

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=613551


it made me start thinking.... (excuse the train of thought typing here)


i think these are great ideas, it will help the the average american understand better, but at the same time i feel like maybe we are dumbing down everything and it could possibly hurt us (as a population)

but then again brains aren't key to overall happiness but i feel like we've worked so hard to become intelligent that this seems like a step in the wrong direction.

it seems like this could push a gap (similar to the rich and the poor) in education.
those of us who actively seek out the information and those of us who read the "dumbed down" version.

this gap already exists, but i think this could make it worse.


am i making any sense?

5/29/2011 8:49:04 AM

Today we are all stupider

5/29/2011 8:59:40 AM

i mean im just rambling here and i could be completely overlooking something or contradicting myself.

5/29/2011 9:00:42 AM

i blame the lolcats generation

5/29/2011 9:05:01 AM

The dumbed-down lingo for govt documents is fine by me. I think people need to stop looking at it from the perspective of the born-in-the-USA, raised in thoroughly American homes, straight-A, literature-loving kid. I have many older family friends who have been in the US since the mid-80's who don't have a clue about what any of their insurance/medical/etc documents say. They learn they English they need to get by at their production line jobs and, for the most part, their kids grow up just as complacent.

But even I wasn't concerned with that aspect, like it or not, we here on TWW probably fall into the top 15-20% percentile for intelligence and the traits that go with it. Of that, I'd say probably less than half can fully understand *those* documents on the first reading.

Sure, flowery language on stuff like the Declaration is cool, but not when it comes to your mortgage terms, life insurance, etc.

5/29/2011 9:11:05 AM

I disagree that either of those is dumbing down.

There's no need to overly complicate things for the sake of esotericism (e.g., legal language). Communications should be concise, particularly when your audience is widely varied in education, experience, and intelligence.

The food pyramid doesn't perform its intended funciton. How can changing a failed mnemonic be dumbing down?

5/29/2011 9:13:51 AM

With the second one, I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea. I don't know how much people will begin to read the documentation, but if it makes it more accessible to those who might not have the higher reading comprehension skills, it can't be a bad thing. If anything, these type of people will not be more informed, and I suppose it could act to decrease that knowledge gap.

I suppose the same goes for reimaging the food pyramid into a pie chart. The concept of a pie chart, I think, is a more universally understandable concept, and in a nation filled with not only less intelligent people, but those with little understanding of the English language and very young people (who I would think could gain the most from understanding this concept)... there's a lot to gain from making it more understandable.

I agree that we are potentially creating a larger education gap (and I'm sure some have/would argue that it lines up fairly well with the wealth gap), but I imagine it has less to do with these types of changes and more to do with the slowly decaying government financial support for public schooling. I'm sortof hoping that MrsCake and I can try our best to supplement Calvin's education in whatever way we know how, and help him to learn and understand more advanced concepts... but a lot of parent may not care or be able to. Of course, you could also argue that there has always been a HUGE gap between the educated and uneducated, and the transition of our economy/society from a manufacturing/production workforce to a much more predominant technology/financial/otherwise-higher-education workforce isolates the American public that does not have the eduction to perform this work. Thus, they complete for the service and manufacturing jobs that are left and their struggle to get by becomes more visible.

These are all just thoughts and musings as well. I have no data to back it up and probably have no idea what I'm talking about. But take it as you will.

5/29/2011 9:17:12 AM

Communication should not be stupified because the audience is full of uneducated morons.

5/29/2011 9:17:13 AM

i use "dumbing down" very loosely.
i don't know another way to put it.

simplifying maybe?
but i dont think that is the only case, i do feel like some of the things are quite frankly-dumbing down.

Quote :

"There's no need to overly complicate things for the sake of esotericism (e.g., legal language). Communications should be concise, particularly when your audience is widely varied in education, experience, and intelligence."

great post.



anecdotal (yes i know these are bad):
i had to explain to someone recently what the term "statute" was the other day.
statute. i feel like thats a word that should be known.
granted i think its awesome that now this person knows what it means, but does this follow under the "plain and simple" rule?
i imagine not.



ftr i think the laws are a great idea.
i didn't say they weren't.

i just feel like those of us who go out of our way to educate ourselves are gonna be further segregated from those who don't now.


but then again i guess the simpler language could put everyone on a more level play field.


i dont know, like i said, im just kinda rambling here.

[Edited on May 29, 2011 at 9:25 AM. Reason : sdfdsfd]

5/29/2011 9:24:03 AM

there's a difference between dumbing down something and clarifying something

5/29/2011 9:24:33 AM

Why go to college and learn all these huge, confusing words if I can't use em on everyday people? That takes all the fun out of it

5/29/2011 9:25:59 AM

^^very true.
agreed 100%,
however i feel (operative word here) that that is NOT gonna always be the case.


omgyouresexy im in your same boat
im just thinking out loud

Quote :

"I suppose the same goes for reimaging the food pyramid into a pie chart. The concept of a pie chart, I think, is a more universally understandable concept, and in a nation filled with not only less intelligent people, but those with little understanding of the English language and very young people (who I would think could gain the most from understanding this concept)... there's a lot to gain from making it more understandable."

another great post

[Edited on May 29, 2011 at 9:28 AM. Reason : dfhgfhd]

5/29/2011 9:27:31 AM

Quote :

"Communication should not be stupified because the audience is full of uneducated morons."

If communication doesn't convey the intended information to the intended audience, is it really communication?

5/29/2011 9:35:12 AM

^don't you think we should be pushing and encouraging people to educate themselves?

i'm NOT saying that being verbose is the way to accomplish that (at all) but it seems like being overtly simple accomplishes the opposite.


but then again my professors "dumb down" things so i can learn.
but they also use the correct terms, explain them, and then start using them.
i don't think this is really plausible to do to the general public though


not referring to this:

Quote :

"http://there's a difference between dumbing down something and clarifying something"

5/29/2011 9:39:11 AM

I blame Rebecca Black.

5/29/2011 9:41:04 AM

This is gonna hurt the economy. If all government communication is stupified I won't have to pay a lawyer to explain it to me. Obummer didnt think about this enough

5/29/2011 9:42:38 AM

ooohhhh ohhhhh ohh


i have another example (sort of)


spellcheck

my spelling has gone down the tubes because of spellcheck.
i, now, make an effort to remember how to spell certain words.
it's out of my way to do this.

i feel like this could be analogous.

[Edited on May 29, 2011 at 9:48 AM. Reason : but maybe its not a bad thing to rely on that ]

5/29/2011 9:45:35 AM

Any materials we create in genetic counseling have to be on an 8th grade reading level. Makes me kinda sad.

Oh and don't feel bad about having to explain what a statute is... yesterday I had to help a wealthy looking lady in her 30s use an ATM because she had never done it before -.o

5/29/2011 9:51:17 AM

It won't be too long before we are filing taxes by colors

5/29/2011 9:54:50 AM

traffic lights that used words would be silly

5/29/2011 10:05:35 AM

5/29/2011 10:10:15 AM

^^especially since a significant part of the population can't read or doesn't know english

5/29/2011 10:11:48 AM

Quote :

"don't you think we should be pushing and encouraging people to educate themselves?"

Yes, that's why I'm a big fan of public libraries, internet neutrality, and more education spending. I'm also a fan of economic diversity in schools and reducing the dependency of education budgets on property taxes and lotteries. Long walks on the beach are great too.

Quote :

"my spelling has gone down the tubes because of spellcheck."

I used to have to walk to the TV to change the channel. Now I just use the remote. Nothing wrong with using the tools you have to be more efficient.

5/29/2011 10:15:09 AM

^^ Immigration standards. No immigration if you can't speak and read English. Problem solved. Its bothered me for years that it was mandatory for me to take Spanish to graduate high school. Hispanics should learn English.

5/29/2011 10:18:33 AM

Quote :

"Nothing wrong with using the tools you have to be more efficient"

i edited my post to reflect this.

Quote :

"I used to have to walk to the TV to change the channel. Now I just use the remote."

i dont know that this is a good analogy.
people used to have to walk instead of drive a car. or build a fire instead of turning on s stove.

i'm solely referring to things that i feel like people should know.



spell check is telling multitudes of people that it is ok to use defiantly instead of definitely...
i don't think this is acceptable.

i think this is what it boils down to.


maybe im being a bitch.

5/29/2011 10:21:30 AM

5/29/2011 10:23:17 AM

5/29/2011 10:24:48 AM

“Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.”

5/29/2011 10:28:44 AM

im a believer in infographics

5/29/2011 10:30:51 AM

^^ i love that quote

5/29/2011 10:31:28 AM

who would have guessed Pauly Shore was capable of such elegance?

5/29/2011 10:34:42 AM

Quote :

"im a believer in infographics"

amen

why jargon it up if you can transcend the written word with a visual language that is much more specific?

5/29/2011 10:35:08 AM

"Brevity is the soul of wit."

5/29/2011 11:48:16 AM

There needs to be no adjustment anywhere.

GPO's top 20
http://bookstore.gpo.gov/bestsellers/index.jsp

5/29/2011 12:13:57 PM

5/29/2011 9:10:27 PM

I like turtles.

5/29/2011 9:16:11 PM