weigh in.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/06/03/stephens.college/index.html?iref=obinsite

this is old

Quote :

"(CNN) -- I have been awarded a golden ticket to the heart of Silicon Valley: the Thiel Fellowship. The catch? For two years, I cannot be enrolled as a full-time student at an academic institution. For me, that's not an issue; I believe higher education is broken. I left college two months ago because it rewards conformity rather than independence, competition rather than collaboration, regurgitation rather than learning and theory rather than application. Our creativity, innovation and curiosity are schooled out of us. Failure is punished instead of seen as a learning opportunity. We think of college as a stepping-stone to success rather than a means to gain knowledge. College fails to empower us with the skills necessary to become productive members of today's global entrepreneurial economy. College is expensive. The College Board Policy Center found that the cost of public university tuition is about 3.6 times higher today than it was 30 years ago, adjusted for inflation. In the book "Academically Adrift," sociology professors Richard Arum and Josipa Roksa say that 36% of college graduates showed no improvement in critical thinking, complex reasoning or writing after four years of college. Student loan debt in the United States, unforgivable in the case of bankruptcy, outpaced credit card debt in 2010 and will top $1 trillion in 2011. "

6/27/2011 8:30:38 AM

First!

6/27/2011 8:32:13 AM

I feel like I agree with this for many degrees...not engineering.

I do believe that all students these days are taught to follow a "check list" for their college career (not suprising given the degree plans) that inherently limits their exploration and curiousity within a major unless the student has a good level of initiative to better themselves.

6/27/2011 8:40:05 AM

^ the engineer thinks it doesn't apply to engineering

that's surprising

6/27/2011 8:45:44 AM

I think alot of this could be solved if part time jobs were more plentiful/flexible. My schedule during school wasn't great for this.

Also I found it difficult to find applicable summer internships following freshman year. Even later years were more challenging than I expected for my demographic. If that's the case than how can there be a demand from business/professional outlet for those with no college experience.

[Edited on June 27, 2011 at 8:54 AM. Reason : .]

6/27/2011 8:45:51 AM

It depends on the professor, but for the most part, i’d say this applies to engineering too.

Although college is SUPPOSED to focus on theory over application, that’s how you figure out the future.

6/27/2011 8:51:06 AM

this Stephens fellows complaints about stagnation and conformity are the reasons I went to somewhat alternative schools

6/27/2011 8:53:08 AM

The concentration of intelligence at university is much greater than what Ive seen in corporations. It forced me to up my game.

Quote :

"Our creativity, innovation and curiosity are schooled out of us."

could not disagree more. you start asking deeper questions till you get to the edge and you start independent research.

6/27/2011 8:59:34 AM

iop1

to me he sound like a smug elitist to me

6/27/2011 9:02:12 AM

this Stephens fellows complaints come off as a preachy douchebag.

Sure he has the option because he's basically a whizkid who, at 19, has been recognized and given 100k to do whatever it is he wants. It's already given him connections which provide him a platform to get his voice to the masses. Awesome, good for him.

But over here in the real world, College is still the key gateway to most everyone's future.



I basically think he's being short-sighted and somewhat elitist by his viewpoints. He talks about how life experiences can matter more, but really shows his lack thereof by his failure to grasp the importance of the university system.

I'm sorry but this whole "it kills conformity & curiousity" complaint is a line of bullshit.

[Edited on June 27, 2011 at 9:08 AM. Reason : .]

6/27/2011 9:08:18 AM

yes he's a 19 year old doucher who doesn't know shit about the world

but universities should always accept the criticism that they are stifling innovation
because it is their perpetual duty to find ways to encourage innovation

6/27/2011 9:08:32 AM

Quote :

"the engineer thinks it doesn't apply to engineering"

Well in my experience I learned a lot of hands on application stuff that definitely helped me get to where I am.

Now that I think about it I can see how this applies to engineering as well. The typical CHE grads I know say that they use next to nothing of what they learned in school. Engineering at NC State is definitely a factory of "check list" degrees if you do nothing else, but there are also loads of opportunities to better your education if you work for it.

I believe that the thinking and conclusions of this article is why companies these days stress on internship experience so much, and rightfully so.

6/27/2011 9:10:23 AM

a degree program can only be as valuable as the student is willing to make it

any degree program

6/27/2011 9:11:59 AM

^agreed

Quote :

"this Stephens fellows complaints about stagnation and conformity are the reasons I went to somewhat alternative schools"

So what did you do?

[Edited on June 27, 2011 at 9:13 AM. Reason : lkj]

6/27/2011 9:13:31 AM

Quote :

"Some might argue that college dropouts will sit in their parents' basements playing Halo 2, doing Jell-O shots and smoking pot. "

dude needs to get with the times

6/27/2011 9:14:51 AM

He's gong to a shitty-ish liberal arts college, and paying in one year more than it would cost for four years from NC State.

6/27/2011 9:17:56 AM

if i have been following along correctly, snewf went to another state school and has already finished

6/27/2011 9:19:25 AM

iop1

Quote :

"this Stephens fellows complaints come off as a preachy douchebag. "

QFT

6/27/2011 9:19:40 AM

It wasn't the dropouts that engaged in that behavior. Most of them have to go to work at somewhat menial jobs due to their poor decision to leave college.

The ones doing Jello shots, playing Halo, and getting baked were usually the ones enrolled in school - who had the luxury of all that free time.

Now speaking of free time, back to work I go.

6/27/2011 9:20:06 AM

Quote :

"So what did you do?"

first I went to UNC-Asheville
it is the only all liberal arts college in the UNC system and it is only 3,500 students
classes were very small and involved - it wasn't terribly uncommon to find myself at a professor's house and it was a very common occurrence for classes (seminars especially) to continue well after the scheduled time and spill over into a local bar

then I went to The New School for graduate school
the school hosts around 10,000 students (graduate and undergraduate) and located in Greenwich Village - it was founded by progressive academics in 1919, although the graduate school didn't start until 1933 when it was known as the University in Exile - the New School is known for its avant garde teaching

6/27/2011 9:21:32 AM

I feel like i didn't learn shit in college but really i couldn't do thermo an fluids estimates in my head before which is what helps me trouble shoot buildings.

I really wish there was an excel 101 class though i'm still finding fun stuff that excel can do.

6/27/2011 9:30:54 AM

Quote :

"the New School is known for its avant garde teaching"

Sounds totally queer

6/27/2011 9:32:30 AM

^e115?

6/27/2011 9:33:31 AM

^^lol i thought the same thing, no offense to Snewf

[Edited on June 27, 2011 at 9:34 AM. Reason : .]

6/27/2011 9:33:47 AM

e115 doesn't cover excel, there needs to be a serious excel class. a 200 or 300 level class that should be mandatory for engineers. the class should cover all of the capabilities of excel and should get into basic vba. it would be great if it could be a pre-req for some other classes and in those classes excel is used and submitted for homework.

6/27/2011 9:37:12 AM

I'm not offended - the New School was a really good fit for me
but its not for everybody

its not like I majored in Conventional Hetero Masculinity

^ there should be a basic Excel class for everyone

[Edited on June 27, 2011 at 9:38 AM. Reason : -]

6/27/2011 9:37:57 AM

long story short

college is NOT a waste of time
I grew so much as a person while I was in college and learned valuable skills for life and work

college is, however, more expensive than it should be
and, like a lot of things that cost money in America, mediocrity prevails

6/27/2011 9:42:32 AM

What can be done to minimize inefficiencies at public universities?

6/27/2011 9:46:17 AM

Quote :

"its not like I majored in Conventional Hetero Masculinity"

Looking at the kind of classes they have at The New School, this probably is a major


The teaching is probably pretty cool, but I think anything that's described as "avant garde" sounds pretty queer, and I'm not using queer in a derogatory manner.

6/27/2011 9:47:03 AM

I would not know for sure because I did not graduate.

However during the recession I have had a better time earning a middle class income than many people I know that graduated.

I think College does not guarantee anything, you can go to school 4 years and if you do not have any people skills or interview skills you are going to be last in line to find a job. Also, I see people run up tens of thousands of dollars in student loans without a career path in mind and shake my head.

6/27/2011 9:49:10 AM

If you want to learn more and be creative, get your masters.

6/27/2011 9:50:59 AM

College is not a waste of time. It shows employers that you have what it takes to finish an academic marathon. However, to assume that it usually applies favorably to the real world, is a huge assumption.

If you fail in the real world, you are no longer employed. If you fail at an academic institution, as long as you keep the gravy train flowing into the college coffers, you can find a way to continue your marathon.

This is a fundamental difference between the education acquired at corporations versus universities. When the stakes are higher, and results matter, and it means keeping your job or losing it, it's amazing how productive you become. It's also remarkable what you learn in the process.

So even though you have a BS & Masters from a Top 100 American university, any corporation worth it's weight in gold will ask for years of professional experience too. If you don't like it, become an academic, because that isn't going to change anytime soon.

6/27/2011 9:52:27 AM

Quote :

"Looking at the kind of classes they have at The New School, this probably is a major "

hahaha probably

I got a Master of Arts in Media Studies from The New School for General Studies (I love how generic the naming conventions are)

in my department we had a class, which I did not take, on ero guro

6/27/2011 9:54:52 AM

I'm an engineer but in an applied science that is constantly changing (computer science). The basics of design are very valuable but the applications taught in college are so largely synthetic that they're useless in large part. I dropped out and there are times no degree has burned me, but that's only with some HR departments. I'd say I'm more equipped in the field than 99% of the people around me with degrees due to my experience and self paced learning. Again, my goal isn't to work for someone else, where a degree would be more valuable when jumping through HR hoops. Yes, that is an ultimate goal. I do have a job so I'm not pulling value-less opinions out my ass

6/27/2011 10:08:56 AM

I used to completely agree with the OP, and that was my impetus for dropping out in 2006

After the last year+ of being back in school, with a little maturity under my belt, I still agree with him. But only if you're lazy or lack ambition and only look at college as a series of classes, judging your success by your GPA. What the OP is missing are the infinite opportunities to reach beyond the classroom to work with brilliant professors and get your hands dirty with relevant research and other projects.

Yeah, back in my "rebellious youth" I used to think that college was just another way for the man to slip his greasy fingers deeper into my pockets while further ensuring I'm a lifelong slave to the machine. But eventually I put down the bong and took my education into my own hands, and in no time at all I've transcended the traditional class-homework-test atmosphere of college into the realm of true learning. I already have a solid foothold into a career that I love, and as long as I keep at it I'll never have to "work" a day of my life.

+1 for college



edit: fwiw, my field is not a career that lends itself to advancement (or even entry) without formal education. Clearly being college educated doesn't mean you know jack about the real ins and outs of the industry but without it there would be no opportunity whatsoever

[Edited on June 27, 2011 at 10:15 AM. Reason : f]

6/27/2011 10:10:19 AM

as an addendum, college isn't a waste of time, but it's not useful for everyone, especially myself. I will be returning to school but purely for research, not to increase my earning power.

6/27/2011 10:56:53 AM

i dont feel like college has made me any better at any of the jobs i have had

but...

i know for a fact that just that i had A DEGREE got me out of the resume pile and into interviews

so not a total waste of time, just a waste of money i think

we are just paying too much to finance all the Oblinger/Easley backdoor deals that dont get noticed

6/27/2011 11:38:39 AM

Notice how the expert opinion comes from a Sociologist?

That's because people with Sociology degrees are smarter than everyone else.

6/27/2011 12:14:23 PM

I think there should be more privately funded trade schools. Think: IBM / SAS schools.

I don't think everyone who wants to be a programmer should have to go through NC State and learn via a Computer Science degree. It definitely doesn't prepare you for the "outside world". I know they have Devry and all of these other IT schools and certifications, but to an extent, the person is right in how valuable a BS in Computer Science / Engineering actually is. I think these degrees should be centered towards people that want to do research rather than people who genuinely want to just get out there and work.

6/27/2011 12:26:45 PM

i agree with the thread title

6/27/2011 12:35:00 PM

Quote :

"After the last year+ of being back in school, with a little maturity under my belt, I still agree with him. But only if you're lazy or lack ambition and only look at college as a series of classes, judging your success by your GPA. What the OP is missing are the infinite opportunities to reach beyond the classroom to work with brilliant professors and get your hands dirty with relevant research and other projects. Yeah, back in my "rebellious youth" I used to think that college was just another way for the man to slip his greasy fingers deeper into my pockets while further ensuring I'm a lifelong slave to the machine. But eventually I put down the bong and took my education into my own hands, and in no time at all I've transcended the traditional class-homework-test atmosphere of college into the realm of true learning. I already have a solid foothold into a career that I love, and as long as I keep at it I'll never have to "work" a day of my life. "

I agree entirely and this is how I see/saw it as well...except for the bong part, haha

6/27/2011 12:35:53 PM

So much of software development is inherently research-based, so whether or not you have a degree or not, you will probably end up doing significant research in order to do your job well. I think most computer science degrees test your aptitude for learning programming languages, and where they fail to prepare you for the real world is in regards to actively working around software design problems, which is really the creative/development side of the career itself. Basically, understanding how to write something to accomplish a certain task, is not the same thing as thoughtfully determining whether or not you really have to write it in the first place. Different skill sets.

[Edited on June 27, 2011 at 12:42 PM. Reason : -]

6/27/2011 12:38:50 PM

A B.A./B.S. is the new high school diploma. There are many good, entry level jobs (albeit competitive) that pretty much only consider college graduates.

The overall value of a degree has gone down, though. This is largely due to the fact that more people are attending/graduating college, which itself is a result of easy student loans. College is what you make out of it, as others have stated, but it's also a fiercely competitive job market. You better be able to sell yourself, because your degree won't be talking for you in the interview.

6/27/2011 12:39:56 PM

there are some good points there, and there are a lot of things wrong with how universities operate.

But to conclude that college is a waste of time is myopic and naive.

College is a waste of time for the George Hotz's of the world but not for the BobbyDigitals of the world, and I'm pretty sure the BobbyDigitals of the world are in far greater numbers.

6/27/2011 12:55:29 PM

TODAY WE ARE ALL BobbyDigital.

6/27/2011 12:56:38 PM

I AM ALL REGULAR PEOPLE

6/27/2011 1:03:07 PM

who used their college today?

6/29/2011 2:57:23 PM

I used principles I learned in a MSE class. THOUGH IT DIDN'T HELP TOO MUCH BECAUSE THE ELECTRIC FIELDS HAVE CONFUSED MAH BRAIN.

6/29/2011 3:01:12 PM

^^ I wiped my butt with some old Dean's List letters

[Edited on June 29, 2011 at 3:02 PM. Reason : ^]

6/29/2011 3:02:11 PM

-------->

6/29/2011 3:04:58 PM