http://www.denverpost.com/ci_22674172/transgender-fountain-1st-grader-banned-from-girls-bathroom#ixzz2M7nLYvc7

My issue isn't necessarily with the school's policy, which I think isn't really a problem, but the fact that this person is 6 years old and his parents are identifying him as transgender. So a boy likes to do girly things. Does that really mean the boy identifies as a girl?

2/27/2013 4:13:31 PM

Quote :

"She said that as soon as Coy began to talk, she insisted she was a girl, not a boy."

seems legit...most toddlers totally grasp the concept of male/female w/o any instruction from their parents

[Edited on February 27, 2013 at 4:37 PM. Reason : sarcasm meter activated]

2/27/2013 4:36:30 PM

Armchair psychologists itt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder_in_children

[Edited on February 27, 2013 at 4:57 PM. Reason : .]

2/27/2013 4:56:43 PM

acting feminine seems a far cry from wanting to have different genetalia before you even know the difference

2/27/2013 7:05:52 PM

Who said anything about wanting different genitalia? She's not getting sex reassignment surgery. She's identifying as female, from what she understands about being female. She may change her mind later on, or not.

2/27/2013 9:09:06 PM

she? the only person I'm hearing being talked about is a little BOY. but hey, let's contribute to the confusion of a little kid so we can be sure he's fucked up as he grows up. What a great way to proceed! This kid barely knows what male/female means. it'd be a damned fine time to fucking teach him: "billy, you've got a weiner. that makes you a boy, which means you go peepee in the boy's bathroom." HOW FUCKING HARD IS THAT AND WHY THE FUCK CAN'T A GOD DAMNED SCHOOL TEACH THAT? Are our schools that fucked up now?

[Edited on February 27, 2013 at 9:21 PM. Reason : ]

2/27/2013 9:19:49 PM

kid had the option of using the staff and nurse bathrooms and this is still an issue? that's preferential treatment to begin with.

2/27/2013 9:20:54 PM

I saw CNN had a story on this today too.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/27/us/colorado-transgender-girl-school/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Quote :

"Transgender children experience a disconnect between their sex, which is based on their anatomy, and their gender, which includes behaviors, roles and activities, experts say. For the general public, transgender identity may be a new concept, though many might recall Chaz Bono, the child of entertainers Sonny and Cher. Born female, Bono underwent a transition in his 40s to become a man. He wrote in his book "Transition" that, even as a child, he had been "aware of a part of me that did not fit.""

Quote :

"Some children as young as age 3 show early signs"

Quote :

"Many transgender people report feeling discomfort with their gender as early as they can remember."

Seems like a lot of transfolk have a sense of this early on.

2/27/2013 9:21:17 PM

or maybe they get confused because they don't get the difference explained to them when they have questions and then later on people say that it's OK to not know if you have a weiner or not.

2/27/2013 9:25:57 PM

Quote :

"she? the only person I'm hearing being talked about is a little BOY. but hey, let's contribute to the confusion of a little kid so we can be sure he's fucked up as he grows up. What a great way to proceed! This kid barely knows what male/female means. it'd be a damned fine time to fucking teach him: "billy, you've got a weiner. that makes you a boy, which means you go peepee in the boy's bathroom." HOW FUCKING HARD IS THAT AND WHY THE FUCK CAN'T A GOD DAMNED SCHOOL TEACH THAT? Are our schools that fucked up now?"

Surprise, aaronbuuro blabbering on about topic he has not attempted to understand beyond a bigoted superficial level.

2/27/2013 9:26:00 PM

surprise surprise, more personal attacks in the soap box

2/27/2013 9:27:23 PM

i would imagine the vast majority of transgenered peopled have the difference explained to them, and sometimes by force, throughout their lives.

THis kid isn't confused for lack for lack of explanation, it's idiotic to think that.

2/27/2013 9:30:34 PM

No, this kid if likely confused because he's six fucking years old. I'm not saying the school should "beat the girl out of him". But I think that it's reasonable for a school to teach societal norms, even at that age. And one such norm is that if you have a penis, you fucking pee in the boy's bathroom. One of the great things about public education is the opportunity to teach social skills. Well, believe it or not, which bathroom you use is a social skill. And until such time as we have six or seven different bathrooms (fuck off, lewisje) for every different possible combination of gender identity and physical sex, then it makes sense to teach kids how to distinguish which of the two current options to choose: look in your pants.

2/27/2013 9:35:11 PM

Do you think transgendered people are lying about being transgendered?

2/27/2013 9:37:31 PM

Do I think a 6 year old even knows what the concept of gender is, much less how to tell what he thinks he is?

Quick question: do you think schools should help kids learn social skills such as which bathroom door to go in?

2/27/2013 9:47:16 PM

aaah, aaronburro has showed up. This should make for a productive debate and an intelligent discussion of this topic. Any topic really, he's always got an opinion to trot out!

2/27/2013 9:50:56 PM

Quote :

"six or seven different bathrooms"

Clearly you haven't seen the chart. We should have at least 16 different types of bathrooms, but I wouldn't expect a white, heteronormative, cisgendered, rape culture perpetuating male like you to understand that.

2/27/2013 9:53:49 PM

Lawrence Kohlberg suggests that most 3 year olds know their gender.

http://human-development.tripod.com/sexrole/kohlberg.htm

She knows that girls like to wear dresses, play with dolls, act like princesses, etc. She likes those things, therefore she labels herself as a girl.

[Edited on February 27, 2013 at 9:57 PM. Reason : ^]

2/27/2013 9:54:24 PM

Quote :

"girls like to wear dresses, play with dolls, act like princesses"

I feel like you can't transcend gender roles if it's still accepted that this is what "girls" like.

2/27/2013 9:57:34 PM

Female children have certain traits that drive them toward dresses and dolls and etc.

Males have certain traits that drive them toward sports, roughhousing, toy guns, etc.

Transcending gender roles doesn't mean eliminating those traits. It means accepting that there is some (or a lot of) intermingling between the two.

[Edited on February 27, 2013 at 10:03 PM. Reason : seriously dude, are you really agreeing with aaronburro on this?]

2/27/2013 10:02:49 PM

No, I'm not agreeing with him, but I don't agree with these rigid categories.

Quote :

"Female children have certain traits that drive them toward dresses and dolls and etc. "

The feminist movement has been arguing that this was entirely a result of culture. Were they completely off base? Females like dresses and dolls for some biological reason?

2/27/2013 10:05:51 PM

I think it's silly that aaronburro is all up in arms and cursing about this issue.

But I feel him that there are social norms, and we all follow them. I do think that fact gets overlooked by the super tolerant crowd. I mean, all of us at varying times for varying reasons want to do things that violate social norms. Sometimes we do violate them, and we typically face some kind of consequences for our behavior. But, a lot of times, we don't...we just go with the flow and follow the norms. The norms do hold us down, and they can be changed, but they also serve a purpose.

Anyway, if the kid is genuinely torn up over this bathroom issue, then I hope the school works with her. But I also hope folks understand how weird/different we all feel inside; nobody really wants to follow the rules, but we still try to.

2/27/2013 10:08:06 PM

Quote :

"But I think that it's reasonable for a school to teach societal norms, even at that age."

This is most likely occurring, and it's just not "sticking".

It's possible this is a case of parents being overly-open-minded, but there's no reason to believe that in this case.

2/27/2013 10:08:40 PM

Quote :

"The feminist movement has been arguing that this was entirely a result of culture. Were they completely off base? Females like dresses and dolls for some biological reason? "

The feminist movement is made up of tons of different subsets, so that's not a fair point to make

Females and males are mentally and physically different--it would be absurd to claim that they're not different, and don't have different tastes and behaviors.

2/27/2013 10:15:42 PM

Home schooling - occasionally there's a good reason for it.

2/27/2013 10:17:48 PM

All psychology aside, what is doubtlessly silly is referring to him as "she".

2/27/2013 10:18:24 PM

Why?

2/27/2013 10:20:07 PM

I don't think its necessary to attach gender to behavior.

If the kid just likes dresses and dolls, then he's a boy who likes dresses and dolls. School is going to be shitty for him regardless of which bathroom he uses. That's just a result of kids picking on people who are different and, for now, an elementary age boy who dresses like a girl is VERY different.

2/27/2013 11:31:17 PM

Quote :

"This kid barely knows what male/female means. it'd be a damned fine time to fucking teach him: "billy, you've got a weiner. that makes you a boy, which means you go peepee in the boy's bathroom." HOW FUCKING HARD IS THAT AND WHY THE FUCK CAN'T A GOD DAMNED SCHOOL TEACH THAT? Are our schools that fucked up now?"

Quote :

"or maybe they get confused because they don't get the difference explained to them when they have questions and then later on people say that it's OK to not know if you have a weiner or not."

maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't recall being "taught" the difference between being male and female (before sex ed, obviously). it was just one of those things that you kind of picked up through experience...

[Edited on February 27, 2013 at 11:37 PM. Reason : if that's the way the kid feels, it's the way they feel. they shouldn't have to be "taught".]

2/27/2013 11:35:52 PM

I think he has a point. Why else would he risk using so much caps lock?

2/27/2013 11:47:08 PM

I do agree though he shouldn't be using the girls bathrooms.

This is just too weird for the girls who have to use that room.

The compromise of the teacher's room is the best option, IMO, even though it's not ideal.

2/27/2013 11:51:32 PM

Quote :

"Seems like a lot of transfolk have a sense of this early on."

And I bet it was infinitely traumatizing for them to have to use the wrong gender's bathroom.

2/28/2013 1:12:48 AM

if my dick turned into a vagina overnight, i'd use the womens room. they should just stop calling them boys and girls rooms and call them penis and vagina rooms.

its not like its acceptable for the same sex to be in stalls together. i can understand at the middle school level and up by gender restrooms is a pretty wasteful idea anyway.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 1:51 AM. Reason : actually why can't they all use the same restroom anyway? ]

2/28/2013 1:49:26 AM

You rang?

2/28/2013 4:10:35 AM

Quote :

"Surprise, aaronbuuro blabbering on about topic he has not attempted to understand beyond a bigoted superficial level."

adultswim wins this thread.

Quote :

"Clearly you haven't seen the chart. We should have at least 16 different types of bathrooms, but I wouldn't expect a white, heteronormative, cisgendered, rape culture perpetuating male like you to understand that."

Actually all that is needed is a single-occupancy unisex restroom, which IIRC was made available to her.

2/28/2013 6:12:35 AM

Quote :

"I don't think its necessary to attach gender to behavior."

You can certainly attach behaviors to genders. You shouldn't necessarily attach gender to behavior, though.

Quote :

"If the kid just likes dresses and dolls, then he's a boy who likes dresses and dolls."

And is a person who switches their penis for a vagina just a boy with a vagina? Sex comes from your reproductive system. Gender comes from your brain. It's a spectrum just like sexual orientation, and it's more complex than you're making it out to be.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 7:40 AM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 7:37:47 AM

Gender and sex are different, some people are using them interchangeably buy they are different.

2/28/2013 8:25:47 AM

Quote :

"And is a person who switches their penis for a vagina just a boy with a vagina? Sex comes from your reproductive system. Gender comes from your brain. It's a spectrum just like sexual orientation, and it's more complex than you're making it out to be."

Then what comes from genetics?

2/28/2013 8:40:33 AM

Come on dude, you know what I meant.

2/28/2013 9:07:26 AM

I know people like to think there's gender aside from sex, but I don't see how it is meaningful. Seems like its just a way of fitting oneself into artificial cultural norms.

Its like a white person who likes the things he perceives as "black" culture, so he identifies himself as black. He's not really "mentally black" though. He's just a white guy who likes rap and fried chicken (yes I am stereotyping).

So how do you measure mental gender? What if a boy is totally into dolls and make-up, but has no compulsion to classify himself as a girl?

2/28/2013 9:09:24 AM

How about we just go by what he does decide to classify himself as?

aaronburro, I really hope you don't have kids that end up not fitting into the neat little boxes you think sexuality/gender adhere to. I hope for their sake that they're "normal" physiologically and mentally.

Quote :

"Its like a white person who likes the things he perceives as "black" culture, so he identifies himself as black. He's not really "mentally black" though. He's just a white guy who likes rap and fried chicken (yes I am stereotyping)."

Except race really is just a social construct and completely superficial physically and mentally. Gender is a whole different story.

2/28/2013 9:17:38 AM

Quote :

"What if a boy is totally into dolls and make-up, but has no compulsion to classify himself as a girl?"

The word is effeminate~♥

2/28/2013 9:36:33 AM

Quote :

"So how do you measure mental gender?"

How do you measure sexual orientation?

2/28/2013 9:49:45 AM

Who cares what restroom a 6 year old pisses in? He's 6.

2/28/2013 9:54:14 AM

Stupid people who think being gay or transgendered means you are perverted and will corrupt/take advantage of their children.

2/28/2013 9:56:39 AM

How about, and this might seem radical, we let people define their own gender instead of trying to define it for them, from day 1.

2/28/2013 10:15:50 AM

To me the gender identification discussion reinforces the need to separately consider gender from bathroom utilization.

Clearly gender identification are not connected to excretory systems.

The kid in question has external urinary apparatus, and that should probably be the factor that dictates which bathroom one should use.

The kid is still going to pee like any other kid who also has a penis. therefore it stands to reason that said kid should use the same bathroom as other kids who also have penii.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 10:33 AM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 10:33:10 AM

and then get the shit beaten out of her by the more boyish people with penes

2/28/2013 11:05:19 AM

Quote :

"To me the gender identification discussion reinforces the need to separately consider gender from bathroom utilization. Clearly gender identification are not connected to excretory systems. The kid in question has external urinary apparatus, and that should probably be the factor that dictates which bathroom one should use. The kid is still going to pee like any other kid who also has a penis. therefore it stands to reason that said kid should use the same bathroom as other kids who also have penii."

Do you have a hard time urinating in toilets frequented by women? I don't understand your argument.

2/28/2013 11:11:09 AM

homosexual people have to use them everyday too, do we currently have a problem with people getting beatup in bathrooms?

2/28/2013 11:11:20 AM