I can understand that there's a stigma behind it

but I don't understand why everyone thinks it is inherently racist

I thought maybe I'd get some more level-headed responses here than on boards with users from all over the globe or other areas aside from the South (since most of us are from NC, I guess)

every person that lived in the American South wasn't a racist

there were also racists in the North (obviously not to the same degree, but still - there are racist people everywhere)

I like to think I'm proud of the fact that I'm a Southerner

and I'm sure that people back then thought that way - regardless of whether or not they wanted to enslave people and hang them

I know that this day and age, most people that fly it are obnoxious rednecks who really hate minorities - especially in dumbass parts of the South (and NC)

but I don't understand why everyone gets so worked up about it - especially if they never had anything to do with the South

like, a lot of (presumably ignorant) people that aren't Southern - a lot of which have never even been here - will "troll" (though I'm sure some of them actually believe it) and say that all Southerners suck and that the South is a piece of shit etc etc

and I know that some people are just trying to rustle jimmies, as fashionable as that has become in the last 5 years or so

but I even tried to discuss it with family members, who I thought were mostly level-headed - but I guess they're not

all they were doing was arguing with me that it has become a symbol of racism - they weren't even really listening to the point I was trying to make and I just kinda had to end that discussion since they (and most other people I've discussed with online and IRL) got like irrationally upset about how I thought it wasn't racist or something..

what brought this about was that I was reading some thread about how a Confederate flag was being erected (uh huh huh huh) somewhere in Virginia - conspicuously and publicly displayed, not someone's personal flag (not sure exactly where or the details there)

and everyone on the forum was getting all worked up about it and saying how racist the flag is and blah blah blah

there were a few of us that kinda defended it

idk, I guess I have Southern pride regardless of the fact that some of our ancestors were bad people. but I don't understand how people can write off the flag, Southern pride and the entirety of the history of the South just because some of us were racists

some people had nothing to do with it, weren't racist, and didn't own slaves

some owned slaves but treated them civilly, and like normal humans and worked along side of them

I understand that its become a symbol of that, but it makes no sense to me why people get worked up about it

I guess people just like an excuse to get worked up about anything anywhere - maybe I'll just never understand the importance of voting that concept

I can sort of see it, but I still think the flag is more of a symbol of pride, and is inherently harmless because of that. I don't feel like I should discount my roots just because of that

I'm glad the country has gotten (a little) better overall with respect to its racist attitude (i.e. less people are probably racist now percentage-wise, since we have a growing "minority" population and are becoming more of a melting pot as this country has always been intended to be)

I just don't understand why people who had absolutely nothing to do with somebody else's ancestors would write off the entire South, and see that as an inherent symbol of hatred and racism

I know a lot of people are stupid, but fucking come on

it's a damn flag waving

nobody's killing anyone

no one's making any rampant implications about anything

they're fucking proud of their damn roots and of Southern culture

and that's the bottom line

maybe we need a new flag or something

we can let the redneck deer-hunting backwoods racists fly the old flag

and the new Southern flag will be totally epic and stuff

thank you for your time

8/23/2013 9:47:37 PM

It's a flag

Who cares

8/23/2013 9:55:17 PM

that was one of the points I made

I'm assuming you didn't read any of it

so

8/23/2013 10:00:02 PM

Nope sure didnt

8/23/2013 10:03:05 PM

I thought this was a serious section

I guess I can see that I haven't missed out on completely avoiding this section for my entirety of being on TWW

8/24/2013 12:43:33 AM

Quote :

"some owned slaves but treated them civilly, and like normal humans and worked along side of them"

i only cherrypicked this quote out of your well thought out and constructive OP because somebody else wouldve done it if i didnt

8/24/2013 1:00:40 AM

Quote :

"I know that this day and age, most people that fly it are obnoxious rednecks who really hate minorities - especially in dumbass parts of the South (and NC) but I don't understand why everyone gets so worked up about it "

How can you not realize what you're saying here?

"MOST PEOPLE THAT FLY IT ARE RACISTS

BUT Y U MAD THO?"


also

Quote :

"some owned slaves but treated them civilly, and like normal humans and worked along side of them"

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Edited on August 24, 2013 at 1:51 AM. Reason : ]

8/24/2013 1:51:10 AM

Quote :

"idk, I guess I have Southern pride regardless of the fact that some of our ancestors were bad people. but I don't understand how people can write off the flag, Southern pride and the entirety of the history of the South just because some of us were racists"

If you like the south so much, why don't you marry it?

But in all seriousness, southern hospitality is a lie. A lot of people don't like the south. This is not new. Whenever someone flies it its like saying “fuck you, we're still number one” to some people. I think its stupid that people still fight over it though, its just a flag and all. But honestly I cannot defend it either. Culture identity is something that is best left to state flags if you ask me.

8/24/2013 6:34:37 AM

I dig the people who use this flag



If the battle flag has become a symbol for racism, this has become a symbol of people trying to not use a racism.

But guys, history sucks. Basically all nations are terrible and do terrible things. The north was bad. Race problems aren't a Southern thing except for the basic fact that it started with more black people. I'm still baffled by the fact that people think "the good guy won". The guy who wins writes history, that's how it works.

The majority of Southern soldiers had no personal connection to slavery. That's a fairly potent retort to this whole idea about the war being over slavery. Oh, how nice of our forefathers to die over some else's right to own people...

8/24/2013 8:47:45 AM

Quote :

"all they were doing was arguing with me that it has become a symbol of racism"

because it has

like how the swastika has become a symbol of anti-Semitism even though it started off as a benign Hindu symbol (both orientations BTW)

and like how the characters of Little Black Sambo and Uncle Tom have been regarded as racist characterizations of black people, even though the former was a story about an Indian family (still racist) and the latter was a strong role model (in the book anyway, not in the white-directed minstrelsies)

and even like how the word "nigger" itself has gained incredibly racist connotations when said by the out-group (and sometimes by the in-group), even though it is a simple etymological derivative from the Latin word for "black" (niger), and even though the cognate term in Russian (transliterated "nyegr") is completely neutral

8/24/2013 10:04:34 AM

Quote :

"southern hospitality is a lie"

No joke - Southerners are the most fake mother fuckers I've ever met.

8/24/2013 11:23:49 AM

I don't understand what positive attributes its supposed to represent today. What aspects of Southern heritage is it supposed to be celebrating? Southern hospitality and "family values?" I doubt it. Independence and self reliance? Maybe, but I don't get that message from the flag. What it advertizes to me is that you're likely a racist, ignorant redneck and proud of it.

8/24/2013 3:49:20 PM

Quote :

"What aspects of Southern heritage is it supposed to be celebrating?"

The contrary position is absurd. Any given group of people on Earth has something that should be called "heritage". You were born to parents who participated in a society that is different from today, and so-on and so-fourth. That's what heritage is.

All heritages are worthy of celebration, although this isn't to say you have an obligation to celebrate it. To say that the South doesn't have a heritage worthy of celebration is to call the people who live there and have roots there sub-human.

While the North has a noteworthy position for the time they were spearheading industrialization, the South quite possibly had a greater role in the global economy because of the dominance of cash crops. In school you should have learned about the cotton gin. You should have learned about George Washington Carver and the importance of peanuts (particularly in NC). You should have learned that the South was hoping for foreign intervention in the civil war, and the crippling effects that blockades had. Also the death-traps that were the early wartime submarines.

If you're looking for a history that fits a particular moral litmus test then you've misunderstood the entire point.

[Edited on August 24, 2013 at 6:04 PM. Reason : ]

8/24/2013 6:04:30 PM

Quote :

"How can you not realize what you're saying here? "MOST PEOPLE THAT FLY IT ARE RACISTS BUT Y U MAD THO?""

I guess I was somewhat exaggerating saying most

I didn't really do a statistical analysis on who flies the flags

I guess I'm (in essence) disregarding those types of people

and wondering why so much emphasis was put on what they think, and how they would be the reason there's a stigma

keep talking in caps and thinking you're some kind of badass tho, bruh

8/24/2013 6:51:38 PM

The Nazi battle flag just represents German heritage.

[Edited on August 24, 2013 at 6:58 PM. Reason : Godwin's law, son!]

8/24/2013 6:58:13 PM

Quote :

"The majority of Southern soldiers had no personal connection to slavery. That's a fairly potent retort to this whole idea about the war being over slavery. Oh, how nice of our forefathers to die over some else's right to own people..."

ya, that sounds good

I'm not a history buff and didn't know that, so that seems like another good argument

a flag is inherently meaningless, and I just can't understand why people become offended over dumb shit. not that slavery, etc was a "dumb" issue, I'm just saying that humans tend to get easily offended, and in more recent years (and probably historically too) it's almost always about trivial bullshit

I know I'm not spouting off anything new or innovative - I'm just on a quest to understand people, and I'm realizing that most people seem to be irrational, whether or not they think they're being rational or not

I think that's the main thing I've learned thus far

Quote :

"because it has like how the swastika has become a symbol of anti-Semitism even though it started off as a benign Hindu symbol (both orientations BTW) and like how the characters of Little Black Sambo and Uncle Tom have been regarded as racist characterizations of black people, even though the former was a story about an Indian family (still racist) and the latter was a strong role model (in the book anyway, not in the white-directed minstrelsies) and even like how the word "nigger" itself has gained incredibly racist connotations when said by the out-group (and sometimes by the in-group), even though it is a simple etymological derivative from the Latin word for "black" (niger), and even though the cognate term in Russian (transliterated "nyegr") is completely neutral"

it doesn't matter if it has become a symbol of racism because of that

that's not the point I was making, and you even realize that (you're going off onto that tangent that everyone else has, and it's not like I don't already know that)

I do understand the swastika bit, but to me that's way more highly offensive because, as I remember it, slaves weren't killed by the millions, all at once, in extremely torturous ways - the people that use the swastika shit are just straight up ridiculous. just because some stupid rednecks fly the confederate flag shouldn't discount the entire American south from what it was, and what a great place (I believe) it's always been. there were select groups of ignorant Southerners that did that, and they've made the innocent, decent Southerners of that time period look bad just because of their proximity to it. essentially, it's judging a group of people based upon one particular group of people within that group. but as diverse as American has been, and always will be (hopefully), you'd think people would have learned by now not to generalize like that

I guess I'm putting too much faith into humanity

I mean, I wasn't there, and I guess I can't believe everything I read, but...

8/24/2013 6:58:59 PM

Quote :

"The Nazi battle flag just represents German heritage."

well, I can't make any claims there considering I didn't know that, and I don't particular care about Germany (though I don't mind you educating me)

their stuff was on a much grander scale, it seems

but I don't know

I'm not actively defending the Confederate flag, really

I just don't understand humans sometimes, I guess :3



why did I even take God seriously

what a fucking doofus

you always have been one, and apparently you still are

and it looks like you will always remain so

why do you even post in this section

do you even lift, bruh

8/24/2013 7:00:04 PM

This argument always goes south pretty quickly.

8/24/2013 7:17:06 PM

ha

8/24/2013 8:27:02 PM

Quote :

"To say that the South doesn't have a heritage worthy of celebration is to call the people who live there and have roots there sub-human."

I didn't mean to infer that. I just don't know what positive things they're celebrating with the flag. And further, I don't think that most of them even are celebrating something positive. Do you think some redneck with a sticker on his pickup's rear window is celebrating the cotton gin?

Anyway, I don't have a problem with people flying the flag, but be prepared to be judged, perhaps unfairly.

8/24/2013 10:30:40 PM

The civil war wasn't about slavery. The secession was about slavery. The war was about preserving the union.

If the North had let the South walk there would have been no war.

8/24/2013 11:58:09 PM

Quote :

"I can understand that there's a stigma behind it but I don't understand why everyone thinks it is inherently racist"

stopped reading here

8/25/2013 12:26:18 AM

I don't think it was a racist thing until the KKK decided to use it for their banner. Just like when someone said that the swastika wasn't a sign of antisemitism until Hitler and the Nazi party decided to make it theirs. Just like the upper case O wasn't a sign of socialism until Obama decided to use it for his campaign. Lol.

Unfortunately, the reality of it today is that the Confederate battle flag can't really be flown in public anymore with a stigma being attached to it, so find another way to show your southern pride

What really chaps my ass is when they go after monuments dedicated to the Confederate solders from whatever southern small town. Already there have been cases where people have tried to get courthouse monuments from county seats taken down. I see nothing wrong with those statues, and I thing that is where the real argument should be. What is the real basis for taking them down. As someone else mentioned, the soldiers that fought and died for the CSA were not fighting for some plantation owner out east to keep their slaves. If you were not an officer, you were no doubt a poor farmer.

If you really want to educate yourself on the reason they fought, and the true causes of the War of Northern Aggression, read Battle Cry of Freedom.

[Edited on August 25, 2013 at 8:48 AM. Reason : Too bad they don't call it that anymore.]

8/25/2013 8:47:43 AM

Quote :

"so find another way to show your southern pride"

but we don't have an "official" (i.e. not completely retarded redneck bullshit) way to show it

we can fly a U.S. flag, sure

but we can't really celebrate our particular region in that way

Quote :

"I don't think it was a racist thing until the KKK decided to use it for their banner."

well this is still part of my non-understanding of it

why are people so fucking offended by everything

I know that it became the symbol of that and then became the stigma - just as the Swastika example you made is the same way

the people who have complaints and get offended almost never had anything to do with that shit whatsoever

anyone who's alive to complain about slavery didn't endure slavery because they weren't around during that damn time period

why can't they just ignore it instead of getting up in arms for no reason when they see a confederate flag

I can walk past a damn Swastika, a Confederate flag, and not even give one fraction of a shit about it - why the hell can't everyone else

it's ridiculous how much emphasis people put on their own petty existence(s)

I can't stress the word petty enough - let's also go with trivial, and perhaps completely irrelevant


UJustWait84 said:

Quote :

"stopped reading here"

it helps to actually be able to read, I guess

and I suppose if we're using that same dumb logic, I stopped reading anything you ever wrote years ago because of your fucking retarded username

come back and reply when you have a legitimate response, and think you're ready to be able to critically interpret anything

8/25/2013 9:14:04 AM

Quote :

" And further, I don't think that most of them even are celebrating something positive. Do you think some redneck with a sticker on his pickup's rear window is celebrating the cotton gin?"

While there are plenty of deplorable counter-examples, there do exist people with a nuanced and holistic view of Southern heritage. But we tend to remember the people who rev their trucks and fly the confederate flag.

NC has quite a good number of historical sites and history preservation trusts. Almost surprisingly so. I can't speak much for the neighboring states.

Quote :

"The civil war wasn't about slavery. The secession was about slavery. The war was about preserving the union."

This is actually a pretty good take on it. The slaveholder's rights lobby got mind-blowing concessions to keep them in the union. I mean, the first 13th amendment that passed congress pretty well demolishes the idea that the North going to war initially had anything to do with slavery.

The South could have stayed in the union and kept slavery. Our national government bent over backwards to assure them of this. But that wasn't good enough when the South's political dominance started to erode. Because of that, it's tempting to cast succession being about political control by the Southern establishment. In reality, however, I think it's clear that they saw the writing on the wall about slavery. I think they correctly observed that maintaining slavery wasn't sustainable. They needed their own government to preserve their own "values".

The North also made the war about slavery half-way through the war. Specifically, Lincoln did after his wartime reelection.

Quote :

"I don't think it was a racist thing until the KKK decided to use it for their banner."

This is a good point. The KKK didn't create that narrative, but they owned it and intensified it.

8/25/2013 10:33:12 AM

Quote :

"but we don't have an "official" (i.e. not completely retarded redneck bullshit) way to show it we can fly a U.S. flag, sure but we can't really celebrate our particular region in that way"

Honest question: why would you want to? Why do you derive any pride from a region of the world that you were born into? You didn't take a survey of all the regions in the world and pick North Carolina, you just ended up here.

Take pride in the things that you've done and the things you control.

8/25/2013 10:33:51 AM

There are people in the South who want to slowly take it back to the good ole days and they are determined to subtely show this flag to say "we're still here"

Quote :

"all they were doing was arguing with me that it has become a symbol of racism - they weren't even really listening to the point I was trying to make and I just kinda had to end that discussion since [/b]they (and most other people I've discussed with online and IRL) got like irrationally upset about how I thought it wasn't racist or something.."

Flags are symbols for governments. Flying a flag of a government that no longer exists is an endorsement to what that government stood for. Slavery was the most notable thing about that government. If you want to represent southern pride with a flag. Fly your damn current state's flag. Problem solved but people don't do that because its not a sneaky way back to the good ole days.

Quote :

"but we don't have an "official" (i.e. not completely retarded redneck bullshit) way to show it we can fly a U.S. flag, sure but we can't really celebrate our particular region in that way"

YOU HAVE A STATE FLAG

Quote :

"anyone who's alive to complain about slavery didn't endure slavery because they weren't around during that damn time period"

proof of how out of touch you are. slavery lead to fucking segregation and jim crow. The state of Mississippi just recognized the 13th amendment in 1988. Wake the fuck up.

Quote :

"I can walk past a damn Swastika, a Confederate flag, and not even give one fraction of a shit about it - why the hell can't everyone else it's ridiculous how much emphasis people put on their own petty existence(s)"

because you are not a European jew or African American. Take your own bold advice. Come out of your own , narrow perspective and just for a second put yourself in someone elses shoes.

Quote :

""The majority of Southern soldiers had no personal connection to slavery. That's a fairly potent retort to this whole idea about the war being over slavery. Oh, how nice of our forefathers to die over some else's right to own people...""

well duh. this is still how war works. teenagers with no connection to the cause fight for the pockets of rich men.

8/25/2013 11:15:31 AM

Quote :

"Flags are symbols for governments. Flying a flag of a government that no longer exists is an endorsement to what that government stood for. Slavery was the most notable thing about that government"

Are you really proud to fly the US flag? What about the bad things that government stands for?

I admit it's particularly hard to get positive things out of the Confederacy which only existed for a scant few years to begin with. But out of the things it can represent, they include:
- regional cultural identity
- the right to self-governance

To an extent, the flying of the US flag is a symbol that the parts of it (Confederacy or others) do not have the right to self governance - which is ironically the very thing that created the US to begin with.

A US flag is a symbol that active maintenance of a nuclear deterrent capable of killing billions of people is necessary to keep the rest of the (mostly brown) world in peace.

It's a symbol of pre-emptive war.
It's a symbol of the war on drugs.
It's a symbol of distrust of citizens to the point they need to be listened in on.

Most flags are waved with blind enthusiasm. It's a "feeling" of identity, and it presumably feels damn good, whoo!

8/25/2013 11:59:53 AM

You already endorse it by paying taxes, living wthin it and putting the people in office who do all of the things you are talking about.

Quote :

"- the right to self-governance To an extent, the flying of the US flag is a symbol that the parts of it (Confederacy or others) do not have the right to self governance - which is ironically the very thing that created the US to begin with."

8/25/2013 1:23:33 PM

Quote :

"Slavery was what the guys who won the war and destroyed that government and got to write the history books said was the most notable thing about that government."

FTFY

Quote :

"slavery lead to fucking segregation and jim crow."

Nothing could be further from the truth. The harshness of Reconstruction and removal of many Constitutional rights of the southern states led to blacks being used as scapegoats for all of the South's problems after the war, which then led to segregation and Jim Crow.

8/25/2013 2:20:23 PM

you're right. there would have been no jim crow if the south won because blacks would have been slaves for another 50-100 years.

8/25/2013 2:30:40 PM

actually, they wouldn't have been. Slavery was dying and would have been gone with 15-20 years. It's like you don't know anything about history and the Industrial Revolution

Also, you're going with a false dichotomy, suggesting that the only two historical options are:
North Wins, Jim Crow
vs
South Wins, slavery forever


you also conveniently ignored my point about the harshness of Reconstruction being the the catalyst for Jim Crow

[Edited on August 25, 2013 at 2:36 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2013 2:34:45 PM

Ironically, had Lincoln not been murdered, the Reconstruction period would've been much better.

8/25/2013 3:22:41 PM

Quote :

"Also, you're going with a false dichotomy, suggesting that the only two historical options are: North Wins, Jim Crow vs South Wins, slavery forever"

those are the only two historical realities. who know what would have happened if so and so....

Quote :

"you also conveniently ignored my point about the harshness of Reconstruction being the the catalyst for Jim Crow"

thats a bit off topic. point was slavery inderectly still affects many people today.

8/25/2013 5:55:20 PM

How the fuck is it "off point" to take issue with the exact statement you made? Let me get this straight...

You: Slavery led to X
Me: Actually, something else led to X
You: That's off point.


Really?

Quote :

"those are the only two historical realities. who know what would have happened if so and so...."

So, those are the only two things we can know could have happened, but we don't know what could have happened... Are you trolling?

8/25/2013 6:01:10 PM

Quote :

"You: Slavery led to X Me: Actually, something else led to X You: That's off point."

Even if something else lead to X slavery lead to that something else and yes that is off point beause everyone still thinks its slavery regardless. You are trying to deflect the discussion of why its not ok to use the confederate flag into an age old debate about the "true civil war" which is off topic.

Quote :

"So, those are the only two things we can know could have happened, but we don't know what could have happened... Are you trolling?So, those are the only two things we can know could have happened, but we don't know what could have happened... Are you trolling?"

those are the only two things that ACTUALLY HAPPENED. anything else could have happened but that discussion is useless.

8/25/2013 8:57:43 PM

If the South had won my bet is that slavery would have been ended by putting all black people into some isolated geographic area and declaring it their own nation - very much the same way the US ultimately dealt with the Native Americans. It's more than likely that it would have ended with a genocide in some sense.

The idea that Confederate slavery would have ended with integration, I think, reflects an epic downplay of the depth of race divisions in the 1800s. The concept was intolerable to the vast majority of people. Public opinion was a self-feeding echo chamber of racism with the core of it being that blacks were an inferior race. It was reaching a fever pitch in the South before the Civil War.

I think the argument that slavery is bad would have worn on the Confederacy over time (if we neglect the legal hurtle of property rights in treatment of the issue). But it wouldn't have played out like most people assume. You can see the "rational" response in the modern day KKK and Neo Nazis. According to them, they just want to preserve race distinctions. That is to say, they're fighting for the purity of the African races too. The philosophy doesn't preclude respect for those people (ostensibly at least). They just want sovereignty to be tied to ethnicity.

Humans left Africa some 40,000 years ago, and ethnic groups are basically defined by the events that happened between then and self-propelled ships. It wasn't a natural outcome of history that integration of the races would ever be accepted, and certainly not in the 100s of years timeline.

Sovereignty tied to ethnicity is eerily consistent with the legitimacy of the Chinese government. It has a strong claim within the "natural order" arguments - and these prevailed through most of history. So why are we so much more bound to whole-species identity today? I think the civil war was a big part of that.

Even among the North, the "natural order" arguments pertaining to race were strong. They only could accept abolition+integration because the philosophy was the antithesis of the South and it was the defining philosophy of their wartime president who had just been shot.

It's frankly surprising as hell that 1860s America embraced civic racial integration. It's virtually a miracle of history. A Confederate victory would have been a huge boost to the anti-integration position, not just for blacks and whites, but for all ethnicity. It's hard to understate just how different of a future that could have led to. After all, ethnic divisions are still fueling conflict all over the world. Virtually all the conflict zones have this. Imagine a world where "human" was a shifting definition which applied only to your own interbreeding group. Imagine that world with nuclear bombs.

[Edited on August 25, 2013 at 9:05 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2013 9:03:59 PM

Why did I read all this?

8/26/2013 7:17:46 AM

I never actually read the OP.

8/26/2013 8:26:05 AM

Quote :

"I don't understand what positive attributes its supposed to represent today. What aspects of Southern heritage is it supposed to be celebrating? Southern hospitality and "family values?" I doubt it. Independence and self reliance? Maybe, but I don't get that message from the flag. What it advertizes to me is that you're likely a racist, ignorant redneck and proud of it."

as someone who is a member of the son's of confederate veterans i see the flag and think of the war of the states. my family fought in this war and i have visited their graves. my father is a genealogist and has found several grave sites of our relatives that were soldiers for the confederacy.

my father wrote the government who sent confederate soldier grave markers that protects the land from ever being destroyed / farmed or made to have the grave sites moved.

no i dont go around waving the confederate flag or anything like that but I see it and think of MY family's hertiage.

8/26/2013 12:30:09 PM

This thread is beyond stupid, and per usual, TWW has succeeded in over-analyzing something infinitely simple.

Everything debated here is moot because the Confederate flag, the Nazi flag, whatever they once stood for (positive/negative) no longer means anything.

The Confederate f has been adopted (largely) by followers of Larry the Cable guy. Its (mostly) plastered on big redneck trucks, and is accompanied by "git r dones," "hell yeahs," and "the souths gonna do it again."

Nobody gives two shits about Civil War history, heritage, your great great grandpappy, nothing. It is and forever will be ruined, not really by racism, but by stupidity.

The Nazi flag is honestly a little more serious business, but does anyone believe ODESSA still exists or some of these neo-nazi retards are going to do anything real ever again? Have you seen what constitutes a neo-nazi these days?

Ok, fine. It was once a peaceful symbol, maybe the Nazis had a couple good ideas, maybe they tried exterminating a race, etc.

Now a swastika basically equals a big drunk party at a trailer that involves some band that takes a Pantera song and changes the lyrics to something racist. Whatever possesses rednecks to occasionally let loose a "git r done" possesses neo-nazis to imitate the Roman salute.

That particular flag then was first rendered stupid by manics, and then later made stupid by irrelevant morons.

I dont think anyone gets angry when a Confederate flag is displayed on a re-enactment battlefield, or in Civil War history classroom. I dont think anyone gets mad when some Nazi plane bearing a swastika gets shot down in a movie or some SS/armpatch wearing freak eats a bullet in a video game.

Well except in Germany where you cant display the symbol period.

Therefore the only remaining instances where offense is taken lies in the hands of... stupid people. Big surprise. If you let this caliber of folks get to you then you have bigger problems than flags.

Actually you probably have lots of problems with lots of things and should concentrate (rather) on controlling your blood pressure. If you dont have said problems then youre simply nitpicking/hypocritical/biased.

8/26/2013 2:33:21 PM

^^I completely respect using it to honor confederate soldiers who died in battle (or veterans). That's not something I gave much consideration.

[Edited on August 26, 2013 at 3:39 PM. Reason : .]

8/26/2013 3:38:19 PM

Quote :

"Therefore the only remaining instances where offense is taken lies in the hands of... stupid people. Big surprise. If you let this caliber of folks get to you then you have bigger problems than flags."

It was my understanding that a large number of African-Americans take offense to people flying the confederate flag. Are they all stupid people?

8/26/2013 3:44:35 PM

Stupid in general? Maybe not.

Stupid regarding this topic? Yes.

8/26/2013 3:58:45 PM

What about Jews who lost relatives during the holocaust? Would they be stupid to be offended by someone flying a nazi flag? I mean, it doesn't bother me all that much, but I can see why it would upset some people.

8/26/2013 4:05:32 PM

Quote :

"Now a swastika basically equals a big drunk party at a trailer that involves some band that takes a Pantera song and changes the lyrics to something racist."

So in other words, you've never traveled to Asia and you assumed that your knowledge of the symbol was complete.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Contemporary_use_in_Asia

8/26/2013 4:19:23 PM

Yea lewisje already mentioned that earlier-

Started the entire Nazi comparison actually, but thanks for the reminder. It changes nothing I said.

Sorry the Nazis ruined it for everyone? Hardly major on their list of transgressions.

Its downright small to seize upon a simple flag as the culmination of evil perpetrated by Nazis or slave owners. People should curtail their emotions before demonizing symbology.

Censorship advocates ITT.

Maybe in 100 years the American Flag will be similarly stigmatized and our ancestors can assume we were all pieces of shit. Hopefully they wont be a bunch of stupid animals that rawr rawr rawr over pieces of cloth on a stick.

8/26/2013 4:55:08 PM

Quote :

"Censorship advocates ITT."

i never called for censorship. i simply said i understand why it would upset people.

8/26/2013 4:56:13 PM

Sitting in piss in a public restroom is cause for being upset.

If my ancestors stood in line staring at a crematorium I think id have bigger things on my mind and a better message to communicate besides "omg flags."

How small some people are.

8/26/2013 5:04:51 PM

I to am a member of the SCV, as a way to honor multiple members of my family who fought and died in the war. I certainly don't do it as some kick to hate blacks or other minorities, though I would be feigning ignorance to say that nobody does that. I also can't stand the little kiddies and activists that flock to campus every couple of years and try to have Silent Sam removed because he's oppressing them. While the motives of the man who originally spearheaded the project are quite dubious, I don't see folks rallying around it to burn crosses or anything these days. If we removed everything in America that was built by people associated with anything disparaging to minorities, women, the poor, etc we would have to dismantle most of this country. Slavery was bad, but not everybody that honors historical events supports everything that happened and wants to return to that way of thinking.

8/26/2013 8:52:22 PM