I'm really curious about devout capitalist Christians. Do you guys have a different Bible than I read, or do you just skip the gospel of Christ part?

10/13/2013 3:15:55 PM

they have their own personal jesus



[Edited on October 13, 2013 at 5:12 PM. Reason : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1xrNaTO1bI

10/13/2013 5:10:48 PM

troll troll troll

10/13/2013 5:26:00 PM

theres a new show on oxygen (preachers of la?) where preachers justify being rich and they had one on cnn today saying that having a benz and a bentley was not hoarding or lavish because he only has one of each and his bentley is a 2007. when they confronted him about it he said yes i have money because it takes money to help people.

10/13/2013 5:41:27 PM

^^ its not trolling, i grew up in a household of crazy Christians but they were the social activist kind. i'm curious what growing up in one of these pro-business republican churches is like, what do they teach? Mathew 5:3-12, Mathew 19:29-24, Mark, 10:17-31, Luke 6:20-26, etc... seem pretty straightforward to me, so do they just not spend a lot of time on these things?

10/13/2013 5:55:56 PM

Well if you believe that a capitalist system will be the most efficient system then I don't see an issue. There will be winners and losers in every system, just because someone is a Christian and believes in free market economics doesn't mean they can't give to charity, volunteer their time, etc to help those less fortunate. Just because you don't think the government shouldn't be redistributing wealth doesn't mean you cannot be altruistic and believe that those who have more should give more. I would rather take my tax dollars that are being wasted through the inefficiencies of the government and directly give them to charities that do good in the community (yes I know there is also inefficiencies in nonprofits).

10/13/2013 6:07:42 PM

Except, you know, capitalist system directly incentivizes amassing material resources and then using them to make profit off others? But somehow donating to the charity makes things right in front of God

10/13/2013 6:39:58 PM

relolgion

10/13/2013 7:45:54 PM

Quote :

"There will be winners and losers in every system, just because someone is a Christian and believes in free market economics doesn't mean they can't give to charity, volunteer their time, etc to help those less fortunate."

but if you are a devout follower, it means that you can't accumulate any wealth. you have to give it all away. You don't get to live in a million dollar home and surround yourself with fancy things just because you gave some money to charity. it means you can't be a capitalist.

[Edited on October 13, 2013 at 7:53 PM. Reason : .]

10/13/2013 7:52:27 PM

Not really but I can tell where this thread is going so I will just bow out now.

[Edited on October 13, 2013 at 7:56 PM. Reason : .]

10/13/2013 7:54:45 PM

One thing you lack. Go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me, taking up the cross.

... err... I mean, go give some of it away and then buy yourself a mcmansion and a new suburban.
-Mathew 19:21, capitalist republican edition

10/13/2013 7:58:06 PM

Quote :

"^^ its not trolling, i grew up in a household of crazy Christians but they were the social activist kind. i'm curious what growing up in one of these pro-business republican churches is like, what do they teach? Mathew 5:3-12, Mathew 19:29-24, Mark, 10:17-31, Luke 6:20-26, etc... seem pretty straightforward to me, so do they just not spend a lot of time on these things?"

They do not rely solely on the gospel. Conservative christians also rely heavily on the old testament which the gospel contradicts. So thats where they get their hypocrisy.

They combine things from the old testament with the gospel.

-homosexuality is bad
-literal story of creation
-literal story of flood
-covenant (god will bless you with riches if you follow him)

They combine these things with parts of the gospel to say
A. I believe in Jesus Christ
B. I help the poor through occasional charity work
C. God blesses me with many riches in return which allows me to help more poor.
D. God does not bless everyone else like me because they are not devoted to him and live sinful lives.
E. When others see my power/success and hear my testimony, it will give me more influence for converting heathens.


They are living heaven on Earth in their mind. Keep in mind these people often claim they are "saved" and they "know" they are going to heaven and what they speak is "truth" and that God has "spoken" to them or "chose" them.

10/13/2013 7:59:47 PM

do they not believe that Jesus fulfilled old testament prophecies (such as those in Ezekiel) to bring about a new covenant? (Hebrews 8:13 etc...)

10/13/2013 8:06:37 PM

maybe they're conflicted by a Jew telling them to give up worldly possessions.

10/13/2013 8:45:08 PM

Quote :

"Well if you believe that a capitalist system will be the most efficient system then I don't see an issue. There will be winners and losers in every system, just because someone is a Christian and believes in free market economics doesn't mean they can't give to charity, volunteer their time, etc to help those less fortunate. Just because you don't think the government shouldn't be redistributing wealth doesn't mean you cannot be altruistic and believe that those who have more should give more. I would rather take my tax dollars that are being wasted through the inefficiencies of the government and directly give them to charities that do good in the community (yes I know there is also inefficiencies in nonprofits)."

[/thread]

Quote :

"One thing you lack. Go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me, taking up the cross."

And if you take that completely out of context, then you can try to make it sound like it's a commandment for everyone to live as completely poor as possible. But that's not really the whole story. I can give you a better contextual explanation of the passage, but it seems you've already got your mind made up, so I'm not sure what the point is.

Secondly, the argument you are making is based on the incorrect premise that "capitalism" means "storing up and hoarding vast sums of personal wealth." Some people in a capitalist system may do that, but then you also have some people who generate a large amount of wealth only to give it all away. I would posit that if one were to make an enormous salary while living a modest life and giving the rest of it away, he would still be in line with the "commandment" you cited, even though you cited it out of context.

10/14/2013 12:26:17 AM

Quote :

"Secondly, the argument you are making is based on the incorrect premise that "capitalism" means "storing up and hoarding vast sums of personal wealth." "

Make no mistake it is fact people just don't know it or don't want to know it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMfCnR9DGuk
http://harvardmagazine.com/2011/11/what-we-know-about-wealth

You can sugarcoat it all you want but at the end capitalism is a system designed to concentrate wealth into the hands of a very small few and in addition, it is designed for the poor to be the largest group of people.

Maybe in some sick way christians like this system so much because it will get most of society into heaven based on "those who have the least..."

10/14/2013 1:36:12 AM

Render unto Caesar you fucking hypocrites.

[Edited on October 14, 2013 at 1:42 AM. Reason : .]

10/14/2013 1:41:44 AM

I render unto Little Caesar.

10/14/2013 2:10:46 AM

Quote :

"its not trolling, i grew up in a household of crazy Christians but they were the social activist kind. i'm curious what growing up in one of these pro-business republican churches is like, what do they teach?"

From where I grew up, you'd be forgiven for thinking the "social activist kind" didn't exist, but instead the kind who focus on smearing the queer and claiming evolution is a lie.

Anyway, Jesus (according to legend) described the end result of unfettered capitalism well in Mark 4:25: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%204:21-25&version=NRSV;KJV;NET;NIV;CEB

Quote :

"For to those who have, more will be given; and from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away."

10/14/2013 2:55:18 AM

Quote :

"Secondly, the argument you are making is based on the incorrect premise that "capitalism" means "storing up and hoarding vast sums of personal wealth." Some people in a capitalist system may do that, but then you also have some people who generate a large amount of wealth only to give it all away."

but even those who generate a lots of wealth, even if they give it all away, they took it from someone. you said it yourself right above this when you stated that there are winners and losers.

that doesn't agree with the gospel of Christ, you can make the argument that Jesus didn't advocate using government policy but you can't make the argument that capitalism is congruous with his teachings

10/14/2013 8:26:36 AM

Quote :

"you can make the argument that Jesus didn't advocate using government policy"

And that argument would not be supported by the NT unfortunately. But who reads this shit anyway?

Quote :

"They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

Quote :

"13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Granted, the 2nd one is Paul, but hey he's more reliable than the Gospels right? wink wink

[Edited on October 14, 2013 at 8:45 AM. Reason : .]

10/14/2013 8:44:17 AM

i just said they could make the argument, not that it would be a particularly good one

But my favorite part of Romans 13 is Romans 13:8-10

[Edited on October 14, 2013 at 8:51 AM. Reason : the part where it says to love your neighbor as yourself unless that dude is a homosexual or muslim]

10/14/2013 8:51:13 AM

don't let those people move into your neighborhood. problem solved.

10/14/2013 8:57:16 AM

Is anyone here super-religious anyway?

I'm not asking that to paint a target on anyone; I'm just genuinely curious.

10/14/2013 9:42:08 AM

does ncstateccc's stand for campus crusade?

10/14/2013 10:04:47 AM

This thread makes me want to go back and watch that interview with that crazy Dominionist couple.

10/14/2013 10:06:46 AM

burro seems pretty religious

10/14/2013 12:57:30 PM

I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't say anything about holding a gun to your neighbor's head (aka "government") so they'll help the poor.

Jesus does say a lot that seems to fly in the face of modern day Christian practices though. Like, the part where he says to give away everything you own. I don't see any first world Christians doing that.

[Edited on October 14, 2013 at 1:17 PM. Reason : ]

10/14/2013 1:13:31 PM

10/14/2013 1:13:44 PM

10/14/2013 1:22:21 PM

Quote :

"Like, the part where he says to give away everything you own. I don't see any first world Christians doing that."

Eh, there are plenty of independent (or low profile) long term missionaries out there (of the, sell the house, sell the car, uproot the family to $country for years working as part of a charity). Of course, I suppose by definition you wouldn't hear or see them because either they've moved out of the country, or they've sold / given away all of their possessions and therefore have no money with which to advertise. I'm fairly certain that humility was among the many teachings and would presume that most of the people who are serious about the charity they do aren't doing much horn tooting.

10/14/2013 1:32:48 PM

i guess my question is for the people who are devout in their language and use religion to justify their wealth

(devout in name only? DINO's?)

10/14/2013 1:35:29 PM

It's called the Prosperity Gospel and it's a load of shit. That God doesn't smite those fuckers down pretty much seals that he's not there.

10/14/2013 1:48:37 PM

^Yea, as a Christian, I find the everything is good all the time, if you are a good Christian you will be rich line that Joel Osteen espouses to be pretty much the opposite of what you read in the Bible. I have been very leery of "big" churches because of that movement.

10/14/2013 2:05:47 PM

[Edited on October 14, 2013 at 4:49 PM. Reason : size]

10/14/2013 4:45:22 PM

Quote :

"but even those who generate a lots of wealth, even if they give it all away, they took it from someone. you said it yourself right above this when you stated that there are winners and losers."

Where in capitalism is anyone taking from anyone!?!?

10/14/2013 10:58:22 PM

You must have missed the memo. No one creates value, the economy is a zero sum game. Farms, factories, flat screen TVs, computers - those were all available at the dawn of human civilization, but the 1% were keeping poor people from having them.

10/14/2013 11:05:02 PM

^No, you are totally wrong, it's the investment bankers that create the most value in our economy, and therefore a handful of them should be allowed to own half of the shit we make as a society. Without them there would be no food on our table or no roof over our heads. And after they built all the farms and factories, they were largely responsible for inventing the computers and the TVs, because they were concerned that the people who worked so hard for them all day long don't have any way to entertain themselves at night. They even give away some of the free content over the air, news and movies that cost millions to make, can you believe it? And they also DONATE MONEY TO CHURCH!

What would farmers, factory workers, and scientist do without these unsung heroes? Let alone fast food workers? Who would build those majestic cathedrals? Who would pay for those beautiful stained-glass windows?

10/14/2013 11:41:13 PM

Who is John Galt?

10/14/2013 11:48:57 PM

^^not sure if sarcasm

10/15/2013 1:42:05 AM

Quote :

"... err... I mean, go give some of it away and then buy yourself a mcmansion and a new suburban escalade. -Mathew 19:21, capitalist republican edition"

FIFY.

this thread reminds me of the Agha Khan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aga_Khan_IV

And his son, who will become the next Agha Khan when the current one--his father--dies.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2408659/Kendra-Spears-marries-Aga-Khans-eldest-son-From-Seattle-college-student-Princess-Salwa.html

10/15/2013 2:11:08 AM

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2013/10/13/newday-intv-pastor-defends-driving-bentley.cnn&hpt=hp_t3&from_homepage=yes

10/15/2013 2:26:05 AM

breaking news?

Jesus fuck why did I watch that? Double speak double speak. Blessing, blessing, blessing.

[Edited on October 15, 2013 at 9:30 AM. Reason : .]

10/15/2013 9:28:49 AM

Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. ...44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Jesus does call his followers to give up everything they have. But I don't believe that it's so they can be completely destitute. Jesus calls his followers to "take care of each other" (Philippians 2: 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. (I know that's Paul speaking and not Jesus...but maybe it's something Jesus may have said.))

He wanted people to live in a society where everyone doesn't "look out for #1", but where everyone is looking out for everyone else. Some might say this sounds socialist. Sounds like a Utopian society to me...everyone looking out for me while I look out for everyone else. Obviously though this is not real life...you can't use legislation to "force" this way of life on people.

10/15/2013 11:05:34 AM

Actually you can and people do it in many places.

10/15/2013 11:08:32 AM

^Yeah that was sarcasm

10/15/2013 11:09:33 AM

Quote :

"Some might say this sounds socialist. Sounds like a Utopian society to me...everyone looking out for me while I look out for everyone else. Obviously though this is not real life...you can't use legislation to "force" this way of life on people"

I know you already said it was sarcasm, but since many people would say exactly that, I would point out the error here. It' not the legislation that need to "force" this way of life on people, it's education and upbringing that needs to explain to them how that's in their best interest long-term.

10/15/2013 11:44:24 AM

^ I absolutely agree. Education and empowerment is the answer.

10/15/2013 12:26:23 PM

Quote :

"He wanted people to live in a society where everyone doesn't "look out for #1", but where everyone is looking out for everyone else."

Virtually everyone looks out for #1. Lofty ideals don't mean shit when you're dead.

10/15/2013 2:06:56 PM

okay Ayn Rand, we get it

10/15/2013 2:14:25 PM