What are your thoughts on this? Did you go as a kid?

7/24/2014 8:52:07 AM

I went almost every summer as a kid. It's an indoctrination tool, has you pledging allegiance to the Christian flag and shit, no lie. I enjoyed bullshitting with other kids, because there honestly weren't a lot of kids who lived near me whom I could hang out with normally, but it was bad for me otherwise.

7/24/2014 8:55:01 AM

Vacation Bible School was the equivalent of listening to a time share pitch.

7/24/2014 8:55:22 AM

Use to go to one put on by the church I went to as a kid. Only ever really cared about hanging out with my friends though.

7/24/2014 8:58:21 AM

I went as a kid, thoroughly enjoyed the playtime, snack time, & hearing the word of God preached.

I saw a church on my way to work the other day that had a bounce house to go with their vbs sermon. Spoiled ass kids these days.

7/24/2014 9:10:58 AM

I did it as a kid and just helped out last week with my church's VBS...

but then again...I go to church...so I guess that sums up my thoughts on it...


pretty sure we don't indoctrinate the kids...we just feed them pizza and ice cream, let them play, do crafts and science experiments, and sing songs...


i could be wrong though because they are FORCED to sit in a class for 20 minutes and learn about stories from the Bible

7/24/2014 9:30:06 AM

you just described indoctrination

7/24/2014 9:32:50 AM

By that logic, indoctrinating is going to happen whether it's based on religion, social norms, bigotry, TV shows, etc.

7/24/2014 9:39:59 AM

I was indoctrinated with religion (myths as truth) as a kid.

7/24/2014 9:42:31 AM

oh! oh! One time at Vacation Bible School...

7/24/2014 9:47:52 AM

Quote :

"I went almost every summer as a kid. It's an indoctrination tool, has you pledging allegiance to the Christian flag and shit, no lie."

i, too, went almost every summer as a kid...but i don't recall it being to heavy in terms of indoctrination, mostly it was church-provided daycare

we did a play at the end of each summer that was based on a story in the bible, but that was more about learning the story than beating you over the head with the "truth" of it...i guess you could argue that the very act of learning the story and doing a play about it was indoctrination of some sort, but our church (methodist) was always pretty open and laid back...and it if my current religious beliefs are any indication, any attempted indoctrination didn't work very well

Quote :

"pretty sure we don't indoctrinate the kids...we just feed them pizza and ice cream, let them play, do crafts and science experiments, and sing songs... i could be wrong though because they are FORCED to sit in a class for 20 minutes and learn about stories from the Bible"

this was my VBS growing up...though i don't recall the 20-minute class...i suppose there was one, though, if we had to do a play at the end

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 9:53 AM. Reason : .]

7/24/2014 9:52:32 AM

Quote :

"In two studies, 5- and 6-year-old children were questioned about the status of the protagonist embedded in three different types of stories. In realistic stories that only included ordinary events, all children, irrespective of family background and schooling, claimed that the protagonist was a real person. In religious stories that included ordinarily impossible events brought about by divine intervention, claims about the status of the protagonist varied sharply with exposure to religion. Children who went to church or were enrolled in a parochial school, or both, judged the protagonist in religious stories to be a real person, whereas secular children with no such exposure to religion judged the protagonist in religious stories to be fictional. Children's upbringing was also related to their judgment about the protagonist in fantastical stories that included ordinarily impossible events whether brought about by magic (Study 1) or without reference to magic (Study 2). Secular children were more likely than religious children to judge the protagonist in such fantastical stories to be fictional. The results suggest that exposure to religious ideas has a powerful impact on children's differentiation between reality and fiction, not just for religious stories but also for fantastical stories. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24995520"

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 9:58 AM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 9:57:55 AM

I never went to church as a child, when we moved to NC when I was 11 I think my mom was made to feel guilty by other parents for not sending us to church.

She sent me to one of these things like the next summer and that was all I needed to let me know religion in general is just trying to brainwash you. I went to this and was forced to goto church for like a year and that was the end of that.

In short its a terrible idea.

7/24/2014 10:02:05 AM

Quote :

"I went almost every summer as a kid. It's an indoctrination tool, has you pledging allegiance to the Christian flag and shit, no lie. I enjoyed bullshitting with other kids, because there honestly weren't a lot of kids who lived near me whom I could hang out with normally, but it was bad for me otherwise."

Pretty much. I mean, it's a fun way to socialize- but in the end its just another tool to ensure you continue to go to church.

7/24/2014 10:03:58 AM

^^^ posting shit like that makes you seem like an idiot...and more likely to be the victim of molestation by a priest as a child

i'd argue that children who read "too much" fantasy and sci-fi have the same "problem" of not fully understanding the difference between what's real/plausible and what isn't...of course, some people would call that having an imagination and being a fucking 6-year old

i'm not defending religious "indoctrination" but there is a scale to these things...not all VBS programs are going to cause the children to become religious fanatics who can't distinguish between reality and fantasy

i'm really surprised a thread about religion came to this

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 10:07 AM. Reason : .]

7/24/2014 10:07:16 AM

Quote :

"posting shit like that makes you seem like an idiot...and more likely to be the victim of molestation by a priest as a child"

and posting shit like that makes you sound like an angry asshole. and it wasn't catholic VBS, btw.

Quote :

"i'd argue that children who read "too much" fantasy and sci-fi have the same "problem" of not fully understanding the difference between what's real/plausible and what isn't...of course, some people would call that having an imagination and being a fucking 6-year old"

Most of these people realize the fantasy stuff isn't real when they get older. However, there are millions in this country (and billions around the world) who still believe in religious fantasy as adults (because they're told as children that religious fantasy is actually real).

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 10:24 AM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 10:10:37 AM

i like how quagmire totally just dismissed the peer-reviewed study because in his heart he knows that kids who read fantasy are just as confused (even though that's entirely contrary to the conclusion of the study)

7/24/2014 10:16:58 AM

The biggest difference there is that parents eventually tell their children that fantasy things arent real or things like the easter bunny or santa claus. However, parents and people involved with the church will contine to insist that whatever religious figure they believe in is in fact real and not fantasy.

7/24/2014 10:35:06 AM

^^lolz

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 10:38 AM. Reason : x]

7/24/2014 10:37:49 AM

Quote :

"and posting shit like that makes you sound like an angry asshole."

no, just someone who looks down on people with a college education should be able to refrain from posting a clearly bullshit study simply because it supports their distaste for something they don't agree with

Quote :

"Most of these people realize the fantasy stuff isn't real when they get older. However, there are millions in this country (and billions around the world) who still believe in religious fantasy as adults."

then post a study to that effect, not something ridiculous like pointing out that 5- and 6-year olds who go to church have a greater capacity for using their imagination

i could argue that parents who don't take their children to church actively discourage use of a child's imagination and THAT'S why there was a difference...of course, that might not be true, but without some sort of established metric for the "children who went to church or were enrolled in a parochial school", it's just some dude who thinks religion is dumb who got some money to "prove" there is a difference in children who go to church and those who don't...and only a moron would need a study to know that

Quote :

"i like how quagmire totally just dismissed the peer-reviewed study because in his heart he knows that kids who read fantasy are just as confused (even though that's entirely contrary to the conclusion of the study)"

you're absolutely right...i, for one, will only let my children read non-fiction...the velveteen rabbit will fuck them up too badly

Quote :

"The biggest difference there is that parents eventually tell their children that fantasy things arent real or things like the easter bunny or santa claus. However, parents and people involved with the church will contine to insist that whatever religious figure they believe in is in fact real and not fantasy."

i don't disagree with you at all...at some point, the parent needs to make it clear that religion is a personal choice, to let the child know that it's okay to explore other options (or lack thereof)

the problem is the belief by non-believers that since you can't prove it, it's not real...which is still one of the silliest things to me, given that we're constantly proving things we couldn't prove before

am i saying the bible happened verbatim? of course not...i'm not even saying that any of it happened, past the most basic structure (stuff happened that folks at the time couldn't explain and they attributed it to a supreme being...also, there was this dude named jesus and he was probably a pretty nice guy)

i just don't understand the blanket hate/distaste/disdain/whatever for religion as a whole...and anyone who feels the need to condemn it (especially by citing a study of kindergartners) probably isn't as objective as they'd like to pretend

in other news, religion makes kids work harder and more academically successful:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1387820?uid=3739776&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104383412357
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20832111?uid=3739776&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104383412357
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10089120

oh, and they're more charitable and compassionate: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1388055?uid=3739776&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104383412357

less likely to kill themselves and others: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3501818

hey, turns out they live longer: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15646761

i mean, i can find a studies, too

7/24/2014 10:44:37 AM

nu uh, i reject those studies because the holy spirit tells me they are wrong

7/24/2014 10:45:32 AM

My parents made us go, but i now realize this was just because it was free babysitting.

7/24/2014 10:49:24 AM

Quote :

"then post a study to that effect, not something ridiculous like pointing out that 5- and 6-year olds who go to church have a greater capacity for using their imagination"

I have to post a study that shows that there are billions of adults in the world who believe in religious fantasies? that's an accepted fact.

Quote :

" i don't disagree with you at all...at some point, the parent needs to make it clear that religion is a personal choice, "

the same way they make it clear to their child that it's their personal choice if they want to continue to believe and talk to their imaginary friend, or believe and write letters to santa clause, or continue to train to be a jedi knight in hopes of joining the rebels one day?

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 10:56 AM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 10:53:32 AM

Quote :

"nu uh, i reject those studies because the holy spirit tells me they are wrong"

i applaud your attempt to disguise your dismay at discovering that it's not difficult to dispute your view that religion is inherently and uncompromisingly destructive on human life as we know it

i'm sure it's hard to find out it's not quite so black and white

Quote :

"the same way they make it clear to their child that it's their personal choice if they want to continue to believe and talk to their imaginary friend, or believe and write letters to santa clause, or continue to train to be a jedi knight in hopes of joining the rebels one day?"

you referenced a study of 5- and 6-year olds...we're not talking about teenagers

i'm sorry you don't see a difference...but then, your views are likely as parochial as the views of those you feel you have to criticize

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 10:58 AM. Reason : .]

7/24/2014 10:54:58 AM

I apologize for posting the study, although I thought it was relevant to the discussion about VBS.
But VBS is indoctrination of religious myths for little kids.

Quote :

"i'm sorry you don't see a difference"

Sorry, but I don't see much of a difference in believing and talking to an imaginary friend and believing in the christian or muslim or hindu or jewish or scientology or ancient greek god(s) or dogma.

Quote :

"but then, your views are likely as parochial as the views of those you feel you have to criticize "

what "views" do you think I might have that are similar to believing in religious myths?

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 11:16 AM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 11:06:16 AM

7/24/2014 11:11:44 AM

I've gone twice, both in elementary school. We had recently moved to NC and nearly all my friends were southern baptist (I was raised catholic). I asked to go so I could be with my friends.

7/24/2014 11:22:34 AM

you should go again

7/24/2014 11:25:55 AM

hey look how original a thread on a college message board that ridicules religion

LETS PILE ON

but seriously lol dtownral got dragged all over the god damn place by missionary parents

if that doesnt explain his contributions to this thread of his general fucked-up demeanor i dont know what will

i wish i knew why bullet was so up in arms though

dude used to annoy me but now hes cool (what up bro let it all out)

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 11:37 AM. Reason : -]

7/24/2014 11:37:23 AM

Quote :

"I apologize for posting the study, although I thought it was relevant to the discussion about VBS. But VBS is indoctrination of religious myths for little kids."

see, here's your problem...you see VBS as "bad", as if you know what every VBS program the world over is like...and you don't

Quote :

"Sorry, but I don't see much of a difference in believing and talking to an imaginary friend and believing in the christian or muslim or hindu or jewish or scientology or ancient greek god(s) or dogma."

and that's your problem...there is a HUGE difference, as any psychologist will tell you

by that statement, i don't mean to imply that one is good and one is bad (or that they're both good/bad), just that there's a difference...children create imaginary friends for any number of reasons (from something as complex as psychological issues to something as simple as loneliness or boredom or an outlet for ideas)...while religion is something that is taught (for good or bad)

Quote :

"what "views" do you think I might have that are similar to believing in religious myths?"

you don't find it a little ironic your judgment of others for their religious beliefs makes you just as intolerant as those who judge you for having none? not even a little?

i pity those of you who SHOULD be open to the notion (because we're all educated adults, right?) that there is SOMETHING out there greater than humankind...call it god, call it aliens (cue meme), call it an intrinsic connection all living things have that is simply part of how the universe works, i don't care...but i truly can't fathom being so narrow-minded as to think there isn't anything more than what i know in this very moment

i see religion as the embodiment (and perhaps oversimplification) of what we don't know and can't explain, but sense is out there...to me, that doesn't mean there's a supreme puppetmaster that is judging every action i ever make, but i think there's more than either you or i can comprehend

to that end, i have a hard time condemning people who find comfort in the definition and structure that religion offers

one final point...i'd find any argument for or against religion far more compelling if it weren't for the fact that there are "good" and "bad" folks in both camps (religious and non-religious)...but since that's not the case, so trying to assert some sort of superiority over the other group is just silly

7/24/2014 11:37:39 AM

I think the most harmful part of VBS and religion in general is that it teaches children from a young age (and continues to teach them as they grow older) that "sure, you have the option of not believing this, but if you don't believe it, then you won't go to heaven when you die. you'll never be able to see your dead grandmother or father or friend again. instead, you'll burn in hell for eternity. your choice." S My baptist upbringing might have been a little more heavy-handed about this view, but it's a pretty accepted view of all christians of all denominations (and other religions).

7/24/2014 12:02:27 PM

i think you guys are giving VBS a little too much credit

i went simply to win toys by thrashing the other kids at bible trivia

hey free food too this rules

7/24/2014 12:04:47 PM

i'm fb friends with some of the people i went to vbs with. and some of those are the same people on fb who are saying "hey friends, so-and-so is sick, we need prayers" because they still believe that the more people they get to beg god to heal their friend/relative, the more likely their friend/relative will miraculously be healed.

Yeah, i had mostly had fun at vbs. but it's an attempt to indoctrinate kids into believe myths into adulthood.

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 12:14 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 12:14:07 PM

why does y0willy0

always type like this with a new thought on each line

all spastic and shit

trying to sound smarter than he is

it's disjointed and clear evidence that he can't complete

a thought

also,

while i did have missionary parents

they were from Wesleyan backgrounds where reason

was an important source. so even though i had my share of

indoctrination, the Wesleyan tradition allowed for plenty

of independent thought. it was because i relied

on reason as a theological source, that i am not

a Christian today



[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 12:19 PM. Reason : .]

7/24/2014 12:15:54 PM

Quote :

"I think the most harmful part of VBS and religion in general is that it teaches children from a young age (and continues to teach them as they grow older) that "sure, you have the option of not believing this, but if you don't believe it, then you won't go to heaven when you die. you'll never be able to see your dead grandmother or father or friend again. instead, you'll burn in hell for eternity. your choice." S My baptist upbringing might have been a little more heavy-handed about this view, but it's a pretty accepted view of all christians of all denominations (and other religions)."

yeah, the problem is you're taking your single experience and applying to most religions, most denominations, and most churches...that's unfair

for example, our church got rotations of duke divinity interns and they switched out every year...we had one that didn't believe in hell with the reason being that gehenna (hell) was a place outside the city where garbage was burned (eternal fire) and the wicked (criminals) went when expelled from the city (at least, that's what i remember)

i'm genuinely sorry you attended a church that made it all seem so black and white...but don't apply your limited experiences to the world as a whole, eh?

7/24/2014 12:16:20 PM

they probably didn't believe in hell because the image most people have of hell is from Revelation (and a lot of popular culture) and only the crazies believe in a literal translation of Revelation

7/24/2014 12:22:04 PM

Quote :

"yeah, the problem is you're taking your single experience and applying to most religions, most denominations, and most churches...that's unfair"

I'm pretty sure that the majority of Christians believe that if you accept Christ as your lord and savior, then you'll have everlasting life (and go to heaven with other christians). If you don't, then you won't, and you'll go to hell. Am I wrong? Is that just Baptists?

7/24/2014 12:24:09 PM

I will admit when I went to a VBS they asked if I had been saved and I said no dont even know what you are talking about and they basically implied if I didnt let them do it before I left I would burn in hell.

7/24/2014 12:27:46 PM

Quote :

"I will admit when I went to a VBS they asked if I had been saved and I said no dont even know what you are talking about and they basically implied if I didnt let them do it before I left I would burn in hell."

i have never been asked if i've been saved except once by some people who came to the door...and i promptly sent them on their way

i suppose being in the bible belt means there are a lot of folks with crazy southern baptist stories...though i have a friend who grew up in one of the REALLY crazy pentecostal churches and her stories trump the baptist ones

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 12:32 PM. Reason : .]

7/24/2014 12:31:44 PM

The VBS at our town's Presbyterian church was basically just arts and crafts.

7/24/2014 12:32:36 PM

Quote :

"The VBS at our town's Presbyterian church was is basically just arts and crafts"

That's really all is it now too. Throw in a snack and call it a day. And parents love it because they can pawn their kids off on someone else for half a day for a week over the summer without feeling "guilty" about it.

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 12:35 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 12:34:29 PM

^^^Are you saying that there are lots of christians who don't believe in heaven or hell? Or don't believe that you have to accept jesus as your lord and savior in order to have everlasting life and get into heaven? Or don't believe that non-believers will go to hell instead of heaven?

I was under the impression that these were fundamental tenet of christianity.

^are you saying that they don't teach religion? because i'd bet that the vast majority of vbs teaches religion.

V What? I don't understand your response. Christians that aren't idiots don't believe in heaven and hell and dono't believe jesus is the path to everlasting life? Or the christians that believe that are idiots?


[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 12:47 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 12:36:04 PM

^^
yep

^
The Christians who don't want to sound like idiots believe in shit like that.

7/24/2014 12:36:26 PM

^^
The ones who think they sound stupid saying they believe in a being from the sky usually say shit like "I don't believe in a hell or heaven, but I believe in Jesus."

7/24/2014 12:49:05 PM

Quote :

"Are you saying that there are lots of christians who don't believe in heaven or hell? Or don't believe that you have to accept jesus as your lord and savior in order to have everlasting life and get into heaven? Or don't believe that non-believers will go to hell instead of heaven? I was under the impression that these were fundamental tenet of christianity."

i don't want the same mistake you did and assume that a majority or minority believe specific things, but i was under the impression that the basic doctrines of christianity are:

- one god
- the trinity
- jesus as the son of god sent to fulfill god's law and promise
- a relationship with god through faith and prayer
- the eucharist (communion)
- life after death

different denominations believe additional things and more specific aspects of those above (ie. catholics believe in transubstantiation of the eucharist whereas most protestants do not)

some believe life after death to be figurative (your spirit does not "die" with your body) or literal (your spirit travels to heaven or hell)

every denomination is different (obviously) and even within denominations there are groups or individual churches that believe different things...which is why i think it's silly to make blanket statements about christianity as a whole in regards to vacation bible school (even if you disagree with the most basic doctrines of the overall church)

i want to make it clear that i'm not advocating christianity as being anything other than what it is: one of many religions, none of which could be possibly be 100% correct, even allowing that their beliefs could be subpar interpretations of greater truths

Quote :

"are you saying that they don't teach religion? because i'd bet that the vast majority of vbs teaches religion."

oh, i'm sure that most church-sponsored programs have religious undertones if not outright religious teachings (where the latter is more common)...i take issue with your assertion that they're all at the level of "indoctrination" that you seem to think they are...i'm sure some are and i know for a fact that some are no more than day camp with nothing more than a prayer before meals or snacks

you can take issue with the prayer, if you'd like...but giving thanks for what you have does not have to be a religious experience

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason : .]

7/24/2014 12:52:04 PM

I LOVED it when I was a kid, I went every year. I loved sunday school too (I'd be the first running to it when they dismissed the little kids during the service), but I especially loved VBS! I loved story-time!! and the crafts!

I was also a child that loved it when missionaries came to our door. I'd force my parents to let them in so I could hear their stories, I loved their pamphlets and books. They would stay for hours and my mom would humor me and let them talk to me.

I loved hearing about God and everything about it. One of the reasons I loved catechism so much was because of the stories and learning about the rituals.




I'm an atheist. Have been for the past 10 years, and I dont see that ever changing.-- My brain just doesn't comprehend the need in a belief like that. But I still love the stories.

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 12:57 PM. Reason : we got to tie-dye shirts!]

7/24/2014 12:52:17 PM

yeah i went. it was cool i guess...eating snacks and playing with my friends.

7/24/2014 12:56:33 PM

I went for 3 or 4 summers when I was little. We spent half the day gluing popsicle sticks together, 30 minutes eating lunch, 15 minutes listening to bible stories, and the remainder of the day swimming and taking canoes out on the lake. I just remember it being a lot of fun and easy daycare for my parents.

I went to a Christian school from 4th-8th grades, and that place was an indoctrination shitshow. I got reminded by teachers constantly that I was going to hell for being raised Methodist and not in the correct Southern Baptist way.

7/24/2014 1:16:47 PM

Quote :

"but seriously lol dtownral got dragged all over the god damn place by missionary parents if that doesnt explain his contributions to this thread of his general fucked-up demeanor i dont know what will "

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 2:44 PM. Reason : -]

7/24/2014 2:42:05 PM

Quote :

"you just described indoctrination"

you're right...letting them drop Mentos into Diet Coke sure is going to make a bunch of Bible-thumping zealots out of them

Quote :

"this was my VBS growing up"

I, too, am Methodist

7/24/2014 4:59:56 PM