Anyone have one? Local HVAC company referrals?

Looks like the closed loop system would be ~15k installed for a 5 ton system, plus cost of heat pump (~5k), minus 65% from state/fed gov.

10/30/2014 10:19:45 AM

damn, 65%?

that might make it worth looking into..

10/30/2014 11:54:04 AM

Yep ... apparently there is a version where they drill a well and you can use it for irrigation AND for the geothermal pump ...

After tax rebates, its about a 3-4 ROI, apparently, vs a regular pump.

3k sq ft house electric bill ~118/month averaged over the year.

10/30/2014 1:13:49 PM

is the 65% applicable in NC or are you elsewhere?

10/30/2014 3:49:21 PM

I'm assuming that's state-by-state, or even locally determined by your utility company. I haven't looked seriously into geothermal yet, but the current federal credit on most stuff like that is 30%.

With my solar panels, for example, the gross cost was $17,600 (5 kW system with micro inverters). My local utility company subsidized it with a $10,000 rebate, and then there was the 30% federal credit (taken off of the gross cost, not the subsidized cost). Net cost was somewhere around $2300, for about a 2-year break-even point in cash flow (i.e. not accounting for equity added to my house).

10/30/2014 6:09:43 PM

does the geothermal system need a back-up heater/ac?

10/31/2014 10:21:21 AM

No

10/31/2014 12:59:31 PM

It works more or less like a conventional system, just with the earth as a heat source/heat sink instead of the atmosphere, which yields advantages in heat transfer efficiency.

As long as you have it designed and sized appropriately, it should be fine as a standalone system. Maybe there are some applications in some locations that are an exception to that, but in general, it replaces your conventional HVAC.

10/31/2014 3:09:18 PM

I got a quote a few years ago from Allen & Kelly for about $38k for a 4 ton closed loop system. It would have been about 18k after tax credits. So your quote sounds pretty good.

11/1/2014 7:05:43 AM

It's possible the cost has come down.

I know that the prices have plummeted on solar in the last few years.

11/2/2014 8:02:45 PM

Closed loop water-to-air systems are awesome. Contact the manufacturer for a list of recommended installers in your area.

11/3/2014 10:57:30 AM

I had a residential irrigation system that I had to do some service work on that shared a well with the home''s geo-thermal system. didn't work well at all because when the irrigation system was running it starved the heating system of water. I'm sure there are other ways to do it but in that case it was not working at all.

11/22/2014 2:38:37 PM

Yeah, closed loop or pond loop is the way to go. I happen to have a 2 acre pond so we are considering that, but the efficiency is better on the closed loop (200ft loop burial x 3) because the temperature is more steady in the mid 60s vs a pond that fluctuates with the outside air (especially if its shallow). Installation cost is 10k greater on closed loop vs pond, but with the tax credits its only ~3k more out of pocket.

11/25/2014 9:59:20 AM

robster who'd you get quotes from?

11/25/2014 1:56:47 PM

Got a quote from Bowman

~26k before rebates for a 3 ton closed loop system (2 deep wells with 2 loops in each), Bosch.

Includes redoing all my basement access duct work to convert the house into a 2 zone system in a way that allows me to finish the basement when the work is done and not have a huge 2x3 duct going in the middle of the basement's finished areas.

It would have cost me ~10k out of pocket to put in a new (larger) heat pump/system (moving it from horizontal raised to a vertical standing unit) and redo the ductwork ....

So, now I am paying the same out of pocket and getting a more efficient system that costs me half as much per month as the larger system would have cost.

He said a 4 ton system would be 5k more, so about 8k less than allen and kelly (and mine includes all the duct rearrangement)

1/9/2015 11:52:25 AM

What state are you in?

1/10/2015 8:40:33 AM

He is likely in NC, which is why he asked for local referrals here. NC offers 35% credit on renewables, Fed offers 30%...at least for awhile longer.

Some debate on whether the percent should apply to the total installed cost or if one credit should be applied before the other.

1/11/2015 10:21:59 AM

We started looking at Geothermal for our house when we first moved and and after it was all said and done, it just wasn't financially feasible on our salaries.

First off, the tax credits:

Fed is 30%
State is 35%

The fed credit is an upfront credit which is pretty sweet. The state credit is paid out in 5 equal installments over 5 years using carryover forms.

In our case, our quote for geothermal was $20,500. After I had that number I ran what the credits would actually do.

Year 1: Fed - 6000, State 1400
Year 2: Fed - 0, State 1400
Year 3: Fed - 0, State 1400
Year 4: Fed - 0, State 1400
Year 5: Fed - 0, State 1400

Most people aim to get geothermal installed in November or December to minimize the time that have a $20K hvac bill sitting in financing or a 20K hole in their savings.

Also, it seems that the legislature has sunset the NC tax credit effective as of 1/1/2016, better do it quick!

Geothermal is inherently more long-lived than other systems since it's under the house and out of the elements. We saw expected life-spans of 20-25 years versus 15 for regular systems. Additionally, it is more efficient, but is whatever efficiency you gain worth it for the extra 10-15K in cost of the system? I doubt it.

If anyone would like to see the estimates we got, I'd be happy to provide them to you privately.

1/13/2015 7:04:06 PM

well ... its almost negligible. The 10-15k more you quote is not subtracting the credits.

Also, for us, they are packaging the cost of the reworking of our basement ductwork, so it is a double win for us since the credits apply to the cost of the ductwork too.

2/19/2015 10:57:00 AM

It's prudent to not assume that the credits will be available. Betting 15-20K on something that the state legislature (or federal government) could take away or immediately end is not a bet I'm willing to take.

Since the fed credit is delayed until your next tax refund and the state credit takes even longer to fully hit, you may still be many thousands in the hole each tax year. Obviously, I'm not aware of how you're paying for it (and if you're paying for it outright, good for you), but if you're paying for it using financing, that monthly payment is calculated off the original cost, not the cost minus the tax credits.

2/19/2015 6:21:03 PM

Paying outright, but assuming the tax credits at the time I initiate them cannot go away ...

So, federal tax credit for this year is already part of law - they could take away for next year but not for this year. State tax credit is also part of law, and that law says you file it for the year you spend it... thus, even if some of it has to carry over into the following years, its a credit on the books that no longer needs to be "earned" through the following years law changes ...

Am I missing something there?

2/19/2015 11:23:53 PM

No. I just blatantly distrust anything having to deal with promises the government makes me.

That's significantly better if you're not financing.

2/25/2015 3:38:18 PM

So first quote I got was low 20s ... I just got a second quote to see if the recommendations changed in terms of sizing, etc.... guy came back with a quote, before taxes, of 38k.

Same size, different brand - waterfurnace ... instead of Bosch (first quote).

Anyone know anything about the 2 and why one would be so much more expensive...

2/27/2015 10:24:50 AM