jk

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/national-business/article35699754.html

9/18/2015 8:49:17 PM

Well, it was a good car while it lasted. I wonder how badly performance/mileage will suffer after the recall.

9/19/2015 10:29:27 AM

^most people will opt out of the recall of course.

9/19/2015 1:26:42 PM

Here in California I won't be able to renew the registration without a completed recall. And, whatever the final settlement is, I'm sure the EPA will require VW to be very aggressive about the recall since the cars won't meet national emissions standards without it.

9/19/2015 2:32:20 PM

Shoulda posted this in the garage! I hope they get punished. When a single person cheats, they get the book thrown at them, but when corporations cheat, they get away with a slap on the wrist.

BTW, Volkswagen

9/19/2015 7:14:26 PM

ah, good call on the spelling errer

9/19/2015 7:20:48 PM

Quote :

"^most people will opt out of the recall of course."

Not in states with mandated emissions testing. These cars aren't emissions compliant, therefore are not road legal.

Also, mods please move this to The Garage (and fix the spelling in the title).

9/22/2015 9:07:55 AM

This is an epic fuck up.

9/22/2015 9:41:03 AM

LOL Volkswagen

Good job EPA

9/22/2015 9:47:06 AM

VW is liable for up to $18 billion in fines from the EPA. VW announced this morning that 11 million cars worldwide have this software programming. Their stock has fallen 30%.

And the Dept of Justice has opened a criminal investigation into this.

"During normal driving, the cars pollute 10 times to 40 times the legal limits, the agency estimated."



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-19/vw-clean-diesel-scheme-exposed-as-u-s-weighs-criminal-charges

[Edited on September 22, 2015 at 10:13 AM. Reason : k]

9/22/2015 10:05:14 AM

This is one of those situations when I wonder: How in the world did they think they'd get away with this? Didn't they think that the software would eventually be discovered by someone?

9/22/2015 10:27:51 AM

Quote :

"During normal driving, the cars pollute 10 times to 40 times the legal limits, the agency estimated"

TKE-Teg what is the engineering explanation of how the delta in emissions can so extreme. Obviously the relationship between power created by the engine and the emissions isn't linear but how does an incremental increase in power output cause such a dramatic increase in pollution when the "cheat" algorithm is activated.

9/22/2015 4:46:05 PM

^^ i'm guessing someone got paid a huge bonus to "just make it work" and higher ups looked the other way. I find it hard to believe they didn't know, but this is possible too i suppose.

I think i read too that they have another diesel engine that could pass the rating without cheating... not sure why they didn't cross pollinate the tech.

9/22/2015 4:49:51 PM

What will be the new car of choice for all the super hot 18-25 year old women once they trade in their Jettas?

9/22/2015 4:52:41 PM

^^It wouldn't surprise me if VW (and Audi) have diesel engines that meet the US's stringent requirements. They didn't use the available technology to pass the US's requirements because of the high cost associated with it. Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Jeep and Chevrolet all sell passenger vehicles that meet current standards.

^^^it's been a long time since I've studied internal combustion engines in any sort of great detail, however I've been following ICE drivetrain developments for decades so I probably have some kind of idea how it's done, though I haven't paid attention to VAG's diesel tech. Most modern diesel engines (in passenger vehicle applications) have an exhaust urea treatment system. VWs notably...do not. A urea system involves more maintenance items (urea tank [urea being a liquid], system filter, etc). My guess is that the VW system is able to handle being used (without maintenance) just for annual emissions testing. Combined with a different set of engine operation parameters, such as a richer fuel mixture, would result in a cleaner (in this case, fewer nitrogen oxides) exhaust. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but a richer fuel mixture done in combination with a change in timing would reduce the volumetric efficiency of the engine, leading to lower exhaust air temps which in turn reduces the amount of NOx molecules in the exhaust. As has been alluded to in several articles on these VWs, reduced VE + richer fuel mixture = less horsepower and reduced fuel efficiency.

9/22/2015 5:05:04 PM

^^Fiats.

9/22/2015 5:43:11 PM

diesels can run super lean. I suppose all they had to do was dial fuel back as far as they could before the engine started running rough.

if the test is steady-state (flat "road" and a single speed), it'd be even easier.

9/22/2015 6:00:39 PM

Quote :

"^^^it's been a long time since I've studied internal combustion engines in any sort of great detail, however I've been following ICE drivetrain developments for decades so I probably have some kind of idea how it's done, though I haven't paid attention to VAG's diesel tech."

https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart

9/22/2015 6:08:39 PM

I have an '11 Golf TDI. Any wild guesses how long it will take to settle the class action suit? It's been a good 79k miles, but I want to get out of this thing before anything goes wrong with it, especially if it's going to lose power/mileage. I wouldn't have bought it in the first place if those numbers were worse, and IMO VW should offer to buy the cars back at a premium value. Fuck 'em.

9/22/2015 9:06:24 PM

If anyone's interested theres a lot more info here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448053

[Edited on September 22, 2015 at 9:35 PM. Reason : d]

9/22/2015 9:35:32 PM

^^I'm kinda the opposite and wondering if now is the time to get into diesel. I've been interested in them for a while, but have been kinda turned off by the initial premium in price. Now that it is (likely) gone, they are suddenly a possibility, but obviously a huge gamble. I'd be looking used, possibly even at the previous generation of the TDI (1.9L?)

What are the chances that the EPA requires VW to do nothing except fine the shit out of them? VW has sold a lot of TDIs over the years, but from a pollution standpoint, I'm not convinced they are such a huge factor as to punish all the owners.

I figure the gamble is this: If the EPA requires no, or very little changes to the car (ie economy and power are somewhat untouched), I'm looking at a car I like, for a great price, and possibly one of the last chances to own a small diesel in the US (remains to be seen), and possibly forever being exempt from emissions testing!!!. The downside being if the EPA requires something that greatly affects performance and it becomes impossible to off-load the car.

9/23/2015 8:31:32 AM

Yeah, I'm wondering if I can get a steal on a used TDI that hasn't had the reprogramming (or whatever they do to fix this) done.

9/23/2015 8:37:15 AM

Even if the fix drops fuel economy to the EPA measured values, it's still pretty good relative to gas.

I'm more concerned about increased maintenance costs or shortened life.

9/23/2015 2:36:30 PM

from a dude who's supposedly a diesel engineer Interesting read.

Quote :

"They were caught cheating on NOx emissions primarily although all emissions are in a way connected. NOx is created when temperatures and pressures are very high during combustion. Sadly NOx emission is generally higher when your combustion is nice and hot and rapid, which gives higher efficiency (closer to the ideal thermodynamic cycle). So In general if you calibrate the engine with a combustion recipe that atomizes fuel quickly and mixes well youll get more NOx. There are couple of important trade-offs then. Low soot/good combustion = Higher NOx and Low fuel consumption = higher Nox. The EPA therefore defines "clean" as having BOTH low soot AND low NOx, and since those two things are hard to achieve together it takes a good bit of engineering, and in todays world some aftertreatment to achieve it. EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) Particulate filters Oxidation catalysts and SCR calalysts (using Urea as a reactant) all are ways of reducing these combustion products while trying to maintain decent fuel consumption But in VWs case what they did was teach the ECM to recognize when it was being tested. At that time it would switch to the "clean" map. Clean meaning that it meets EPA requirements for both NOx and soot. Then when the test is over (and potentially an OBD drive cycle) it would fall back to its primary driving map. On the driving map it would have been optimized for best fuel economy and performance. Optimized in this case refers to the fuel injection pressure and timing, and possibly EGR and Urea flow, parameters controlled by the ECM. Specifically earlier injection timing gives better power and efficiency but creates more NOx. NOx by the way is totally invisible and odorless. The end result is an engine that will pass an EPA engine emissions certification test, but then will recalibrate itself for driving or (ironically) for the EPA mpg test cycle (which is done in chassis without emissions monitoring). Thus the engineers get to circumvent the very difficult trade-off between NOx and efficiency. The car will produce a lot more NOx in normal driving, and have better fuel economy. Technically not meeting the intent of the emissions law but very hard to detect. If VW correct this via recall the car will be required to run on the "clean" calibration all the time. This will mean poorer fuel economy, I would be speculating to say by how much but VW wouldnt have bothered cheating if it wasnt a significant gain. It may even have implications on durability if certain parameters (like exhaust gas temps, turbocharger RPMs or oil life) are affected as they often are."

9/23/2015 3:34:49 PM

[Edited on September 23, 2015 at 4:05 PM. Reason : d]

9/23/2015 4:05:21 PM

^^everything he said is correct.

9/24/2015 9:31:27 AM

LOL BMW next! Now all the frat boys and boy racers can start crying!

http://www.worldcarfans.com/115092499384/bmw-caught-cheating-with-nitric-oxide-levels-shares

Shares down 8%!

9/24/2015 10:25:12 AM

Is reduced NOx really worth a decrease in fuel economy? If anything, this whole debacle highlights the ridiculousness of our emissions standards and the price we pay for it.

9/24/2015 10:59:55 AM

Smog

9/24/2015 12:14:06 PM

^^NOx (in conjunction with sunlight) is a key contributor to increased ground-level ozone concentrations, which is harmful to human health. If emission standards are so ridiculous, move to China.

[Edited on September 24, 2015 at 12:47 PM. Reason : ]

9/24/2015 12:46:19 PM

^^^^Eh, don't your breath on that claim. Until something more substantial and legitimate comes out saying as much I wouldn't put much stock (pun intended) in that.

9/24/2015 1:56:28 PM

Quote :

"BMW got yanked into the riptide of the Volkswagen diesel scandal thanks to a report in Auto Bild, which Auto Bild has now clarified. On Thursday the German magazine said that when the International Council on Clean Transportation tested the X3 xDrive 2.0d, the ICCT discovered the diesel X3's tailpipe emissions exceeded the European limit by more than 1,100 percent. The key detail, though, is that apparently at no time did the ICCT find that BMW cheated on any emissions tests."

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/25/bmw-says-diesels-above-board/

9/25/2015 2:35:10 PM

1.2 million Skodas and 2.1 million Audis also have the cheating software.

(For the non-gearheads, Skoda -- originally a Czech car company -- and Audi are part of VW)

11 million cars worldwide!

9/28/2015 4:03:36 PM

Quote :

" reduced NOx really worth a decrease in fuel economy? If anything, this whole debacle highlights the ridiculousness of our emissions standards"

Fuck it dude, lets scrap environmental regs, catalytic converters, and emission standards. They all sound like unamerican pussy communist shit. It's my right as an American to burn whatever I want and we need to let the corporations and free market determine what's best!

AM I RITE

9/28/2015 4:15:43 PM

From what I can tell, people who own these cars love them. Like, a lot. I thought it was about some advertising stuff, but all this has done is make me look into how I can get the little chip thingy changed on my car and future cars.

I want the best performance out of my car that I can get. And I think we all do.

9/28/2015 6:49:58 PM

http://www.halloweencostumes.com/blog/p-830-diy-volkswagen-diesel-costume.aspx

10/6/2015 11:33:33 AM

if these cars are "fixed" and the fuel economy goes down significantly, sure it might save some NO2 emissions, but wouldn't production of the extra fuel needed, and the burning of that extra fuel add a lot more total emissions to the atmosphere?

10/6/2015 11:27:56 PM

^good question. pollution per mile should be the most important stat

10/7/2015 5:47:11 AM

NOx compounds are just about the worst thing to come out of a car's tailpipe. So I'd say no, this is more important.

10/7/2015 9:01:15 AM

LOL, Porsche and Audi too!

EPA finds more defeat devices in Audi, Porsche and Volkswagen models

Quote :

"The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has determined that thousands of Audi, Porsche and Volkswagen models equipped with a 3.0-liter V6 diesel engine also contain a defeat device. In the second notice of violation of the Clean Air Act, the EPA informed the automakers that they "developed and installed" defeat devices on a number of models including the 2014 Volkswagen Touareg, the 2015 Porsche Cayenne and the 2016 Audi A6, A7, A8 / A8 L and Q5."

11/2/2015 5:32:45 PM

No surprise there. It's all the same engine.

11/2/2015 5:34:03 PM

radio says 9x the NOx of "test mode"

[Edited on November 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM. Reason : ]

11/2/2015 8:34:21 PM

Sweet. I can't wait to buy a cheap as fuck Golf in a couple years.

11/2/2015 9:21:00 PM

It'd be embarrassing to be pulled over in a Volkswagen and charged for driving a vehicle that wasn't street-legal

11/2/2015 9:39:12 PM

"VW engineers confess cheating to lower CO2 emissions"

Holy hell, where will it end?!

"Winterkorn announced in 2012 that VW would reduce vehicle CO2 emissions by 30 percent by 2015 compared to 2006 levels, but the engineers weren't able to perform the cuts. To artificially improve the results the workers raised tire pressures and mixed diesel with the motor oil to make the vehicles use less fuel. This deception occurred from 2013 through this spring, and it only came to light when an employee revealed the cheating to his bosses at the end of October, according to Reuters."

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/09/vw-engineers-co2-emissions-cheat/

11/10/2015 1:29:30 PM

Quote :

"revealed the cheating to his bosses at the end of October"

how quaint

11/10/2015 9:41:59 PM

i believe they are offering owners $1k but if you take it you cant sue them

11/12/2015 5:50:22 AM

The $1000 ($500 on a prepaid debit card and $500 credit at a vw dealership) doesn't take away the right to sue or participate in a class action suit, they're calling it a "goodwill package"

11/12/2015 6:22:28 AM

^thats what VW says but there is a clause in the agreement that could take away rights

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-volkswagen-rebate-20151109-story.html

Quote :

" but some attorneys are disputing that and warning customers not to sign an arbitration clause required to get the money. “It is a complete end run around the litigation that is in place,” said Amy Williams-Derry, an attorney with Keller Rohrback, one of the law firm’s pursuing class action litigation against the automaker. “They are trying to buy off plaintiffs who have already sued and consumers who would benefit from a class-action recovery.”"

[Edited on November 12, 2015 at 7:21 AM. Reason : d]

11/12/2015 7:21:06 AM

I have never understood how people think they are gonna get away with stuff like this? Surely they had to know at some point the actual emissions coming out of the tail pipe were gonna be tested. What it did bring to light though was showing that for some reason they weren't normally checking emissions this way and relying on a computer which allowed them to skirt this issue for way longer than they should. Hopefully, if nothing else, this will change the way cars are tested going forward.

11/12/2015 9:34:46 AM