Quote :

"Yes, it's a cheap option for you. But not for the vast majority of the ~50 million Americans (only 5.5 million 360s) with HDTVs who just want to be able to play either Blu-ray or HD-DVD. They would be insane to buy a 360, as standalone players are not only cheaper, they outperform it in terms of playback. The PS3, on the other hand, is probably your best option for Blu-ray. But, oh no, it has no games "

HD DVD drive + decoder software = $250

There are tens of millions of people out there with analog 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 outputs (most new motherboards include this on-board) on their PC (I would wager that most people who own HDTVs probably own decent PCs). Most 5.1 receivers worth a damn have analog inputs. So an average consumer can enjoy the benefit of 1080P movies with Dolby TrueHD.

Before you say "but the analog connections are lossy," your stereo speakers are connected to your receiver with an analog connection. The sound quality would typically be more dependent on the length of speaker wire attached to the speakers rather than the audio connection to the PC.

But then again, the stand-alone Toshiba HD DVD player is $299 (though the interface isn't as snappy as on the XBox) and has digital and analog outputs for HD audio, in addition to HDMI interface.

Notice that I am not making any arguments here about Blu-Ray. Maybe Blu-Ray is better than HD DVD, I really don't know. My only experience with Blu-Ray is what I've seen in stores. The first Blu-Ray discs were encoded poorly, but as I understand that problem has been addressed and the video quality is on par with HD DVD or better. You never can tell with in-store setups because they're never configured well (the displays in particular are never calibrated).

You're saying the PS3 is a great Blu-Ray player. Ok, great. It's the cheapest Blu-Ray player. Ok, great. It's still far from affordable if your only intent is to watch HD movies (likewise, buying an XBox to watch movies isn't affordable either). At $140, I would consider the HD DVD drive I got affordable. I will continue to use this option until a better deal comes along.

Neither format is going to "win" until it becomes affordable and desirable to the average consumer. That won't be until ALL the equipment (receivers, HDTVs, and players) all become more affordable, or old technology is phased out.

7/12/2007 1:42:39 PM

Quote :

"HD DVD drive + decoder software = $250"

+ how much for a PC?

And you're actually suggesting that putting a PC into the mix is somehow...good?

The number of people that will go to that kind of hassle is DWARFED by the amount of people that own and regularly use Xbox 360s. And that's saying something.

7/12/2007 1:52:42 PM

No... my point is that the best option for one person is not necessarily the best option for anyone else. Lots of people already own capable PCs and that would be a CHEAP option for THEM. I would not suggest buying a new PC for the purpose of watching HD movies.

I know lots of people who own PCs (for gaming / watching DVDs) with surround sound capability and 19-21" widescreen LCDs. If they want to join the HD bandwagon, it may make more sense for them to spend $250 on an HD DVD drive and decoder software than spend $500 on the cheapest Blu-Ray player.

Whereas, if you want to play HD games on a console and watch HD movies (and you don't currently own any HD hardware), then the PS3 is probably a better option.

What I'm saying is the format that is best for a particular consumer is very sensitive to the current situation of that consumer. When one format can become a viable option, (relatively) independent of the consumer's situation, then the "war" will be over. (e.g. if 90% of households have HDTVs + newer 5.1 receivers and Blu-Ray players cost $50, then nothing else will really matter).

7/12/2007 2:14:13 PM

^Christ, I'm not even talking about how expensive Blu-ray is vs. HD-DVD. Yes, it's at least $200 more, everyone knows that. All I'm trying to do here is make it crystal clear that the average (non-gamer) HDTV owner shopping for HD-DVD, has absolutely no reason to even glance in the 360s direction. It is inferior to stand alone HD-DVD players in almost every way, including price.

On the other hand, the average HDTV owner who is shopping for Blu-ray, has every reason to consider a PS3 as his primary player. That's all I'm trying to say. I just want to eliminate all the Sony vs. Microsoft talk, PS3 vs. 360 talk from this thread. The most common argument in here against Blu-ray is that the PS3 has no games. Do you realize how illogical that is? For the average HDTV owner the 360 isn't a viable HD-DVD player, the PS3 is a viable Blu-ray player, therefore there should be no discussion of their respective strengths as game consoles here.

^^And yeah, no one in there right mind would do PC + HD-DVD drive versus buying an HD-A2.

[Edited on July 12, 2007 at 2:30 PM. Reason : :]

7/12/2007 2:18:02 PM

i'm sorry, but i beg to differ, there are very few people who have capable computers for HD-DVD or blu-ray... the requirements are pretty high.

http://www.cyberlink.com/english/support/bdhd_support/diagnosis.jsp

don't forget the video card with HDCP with at least 256mb video memory, 1gb system memory, a 3.2Ghz or equivalent cpu (VERY few cpu's are on the list, only 3 pentium D 9xx cpus or CoreDuo or higher for intel), also don't forget the HDCP compliant monitor

7/12/2007 5:27:42 PM

Why cant sony make a cheap blu ray player for people who have no intentions of playing games? Around 300$ would be reasonable.

7/12/2007 6:08:58 PM

Toshiba HD-A2 HD-DVD Player - $199 *standalone no less*
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000IJV4BC/

[Edited on July 12, 2007 at 6:11 PM. Reason : .]

7/12/2007 6:10:47 PM

yeah well i tried to do my part in adopting the more affordable format thinking everyone would benefit......but you got dipshits running around with ps3s

what else are they going to talk about?

7/12/2007 6:16:52 PM

Quote :

"i'm sorry, but i beg to differ, there are very few people who have capable computers for HD-DVD or blu-ray... the requirements are pretty high. http://www.cyberlink.com/english/support/bdhd_support/diagnosis.jsp don't forget the video card with HDCP with at least 256mb video memory, 1gb system memory, a 3.2Ghz or equivalent cpu (VERY few cpu's are on the list, only 3 pentium D 9xx cpus or CoreDuo or higher for intel), also don't forget the HDCP compliant monitor"

The cheapest desktop on Dell's site (with the Core 2 Duo E4300 added for $40 it comes to $369 w/o a graphics card) supports all the minimum requirements except the graphics card. Even Dell's 19" flat panel is HDCP compliant. HDCP is only necessary for DVI or HDMI connections. You can still get 1080P over VGA without a HDCP compliant display. I got my desktop from Dell a year and a half ago and it meets all the minimum requirements for HD DVD or Blu-Ray playback. The requirements are really not that high.

Anyone who plays current games on their PC (i.e. has a non-shit graphics card and a PC less than a year old) is probably capable of playing back HD movies on their computer. Note all the CPUs on the minimum requirements list are old technology.


Min. Req.
Pentium 4 - 541 (3.2G)
Pentium D - 840 (3.2G), 930(3.0G), 940(3.2G)
Core Duo - T2400 (1.83G)
Pentium M - 755 (2.0G)
Athlon 64 X2 - 3800+ (2G), 4000+(2G)
Turion 64 X2 - TL-50 (1.6G), TL-52 (1.6G), TL-56 (1.8G)

7/12/2007 8:43:46 PM

Yes, but ask yourself this:

What's the point of even watching an HD-DVD movie on a 19" monitor?

Sure, the 360 HD-DVD drive connected to a computer is a possible way to view HD-DVDs. It's also probably the least elegant, least prudent, and most prone to failure of any of the other possible ways though. The pros of being able to do it don't, in any way, outweigh the cons of actually doing it.

[Edited on July 12, 2007 at 10:07 PM. Reason : .]

7/12/2007 10:04:15 PM

umm...i have a media center pc and a remote for it...
so its not too shabby.

one thing you are all missing though with the pc arguement.... you really need a GREAT sound card too.
i mean you don't need one but hd audio is half the reason hd formats are great.

7/12/2007 10:37:55 PM

^my post at the top of the page mentions the audio.


^^you are missing my point. my point is it's a perfectly good option for people who have the hardware (including a good monitor or projector). there are a lot of negatives associated with the hd dvd drive that really shouldn't be. it is not a hd dvd player, it's only as good as the hardware you hook it up to, but it's versatile. the same arguments can be made for an add-on blu-ray drive. this was all in response to the argument that hd dvd is inferior... because the xbox requires an add-on drive for hd movie playback and the drive sucks because the xbox isn't equipped with support for HDMI or lossless audio output. all i'm saying is hd dvd format, xbox 360, and usb hd dvd drives are all separate things and that the hd dvd drive is not the piece of crap shrike was making it out to be.

7/12/2007 11:41:45 PM

how much is an external blu ray drive?

that should pretty much solve your arguement.

just compare apples to apples.

7/13/2007 8:11:28 AM

my argument is not and has never been about blu-ray

7/13/2007 9:19:01 AM

which is why you are still a bumbling idiot on page 10

7/13/2007 5:51:06 PM

^hahahaha

My favorite thing from this thread:

Quote :

"Someone needs to change your sig to "The Analog Champion""

gg Quinn, gg.

All this makes me so glad I dont have a problem with watching DVD's on a tube 34" HDTV

7/14/2007 12:05:32 AM

I owned a 34XBR970 , it was awesome.

Too bad it died on day 5 (sparks came out of it).

It was my favorite tv

7/14/2007 4:31:57 PM

i watch dvds on my 1080p tv and don't have a need to replace them with hd movies... not worth the $.


plus, x264 ftw

7/14/2007 10:57:30 PM

If you're pissed (like me) at the Fifth Element release on blu-ray, there is great news!!

Sony Offers New 'Fifth Element' Blu-ray Remaster and "Replacement Exchange Program"

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/705

7/20/2007 6:00:12 PM

w00000000h000000000000000

7/20/2007 7:50:50 PM

awwww thats nice of sony

7/20/2007 8:31:23 PM

Do I sense a pattern here?

Denon announced they will ONLY be making Blu-Ray players yesterday.

Target is expected to make an announcement today that they will only carry Blu-Rays in store.

Jay Leno (who is broadcast on a Universal-owned TV station) made a mention of Blu-Ray a few nights ago claiming it was "better than HD", and failing to even mention HD-DVD.


Things are really looking up for you microsoft hd-dvd fanboys.

7/25/2007 12:39:40 PM

It's even the preferred format of criminals!!

http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/25/thieves-choose-blu-ray-over-hd-dvd-in-mass-disc-heist/

Quote :

"Blockbuster choosing Blu-ray for its nationwide rollout is one thing, but being ignored when the price of acquisition is the low low price of free is a reality check for any fledgling standard."

[Edited on July 25, 2007 at 1:27 PM. Reason : :]

7/25/2007 1:14:21 PM

Yay clear winner!

Now drop the price of the players to >$100 and the movies to $15 and I'll start forking over the cash.

7/25/2007 1:36:21 PM

Ohhhhh man, Jay Leno?!?!?! Consider the towel thrown in!

7/25/2007 1:43:18 PM

obviously you missed the irony...

7/25/2007 1:52:19 PM

The silly thing about this whole "format war" is how it's not even a war between two rival formats anymore. It's essentially devolved into Blu-Ray vs. the Toshiba "Universal Studios" HD movie player. However, Toshiba's pockets are as deep as any of the companies backing Blu-Ray, and they don't appear to be letting up anytime soon. Same with Universal, who continues to stand firmly behind Toshiba and HD-DVD's interactive features. The problem is, the longer they continue being the odd men out, the longer it's going to take for wide adoption of HD movies. It would be better for all involved if they just called it quits and left us with just one format.

7/25/2007 1:53:30 PM

"Letterman had no comment."

7/25/2007 1:53:37 PM

At least Conan O'Brien and Craig Ferguson haven't taken sides yet.

And as we know, as Carson Daly goes, so goes the world.

7/25/2007 1:57:12 PM

woohooooo .mkv files!!!! Blueray sounds cooler.

7/25/2007 1:59:02 PM

plus blueray has a bit rate of around 53.95 Mbit/s whereas HD-DVD only has a bitrate of 36.55 Mbit/s. Blueray wins.

7/25/2007 3:02:30 PM

Quote :

"It would be better for all involved if they just called it quits and left us with just one format."

Why not the cheaper one?

We're not all rich.

Can you imagine the price of a bluray player if they had no competition?

I realize youve never bought a single piece of electronics that wasnt "the most expensive" but you've got to at least acknowledge the fact that it costs a fuckton more.

[Edited on July 25, 2007 at 6:20 PM. Reason : .]

7/25/2007 6:12:05 PM

Quote :

"Can you imagine the price of a bluray player if they had no competition?"

You mean that hypothetical world where DVD doesn't exist? Look, it doesn't matter which format wins the HD war, at the end of the day, they still have to compete with DVD. Do you honestly think Blu-Ray players are going to stay $500 forever? The price right now is absolutely irrelevant, eventually whichever format wins will have sub-$100 players and $5 movies, or people will just keep buying DVDs. The faster Toshiba and Universal go neutral, the closer we'll be to wider adoption of HD movies, and that will drive prices down a lot faster than this pointless war. Why not the cheaper one? Because it also happens to be the technologically inferior one, and at the end of the day, prices will have to drop to the same level anyway in order to compete with DVD.

7/25/2007 7:00:01 PM

"sort by price"

buy

7/25/2007 7:16:24 PM

Here's the official Target announcement.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/25/ap3952696.html&cid=1118473548

7/25/2007 10:18:43 PM

i got hd dvd cause i wanted to be the guy that told his kids he had betamax

7/25/2007 11:13:29 PM

Quote :

"Why not the cheaper one? Because it also happens to be the technologically inferior one, and at the end of the day, prices will have to drop to the same level anyway in order to compete with DVD."

Wrong dawg.

Blu-ray is never going to compete on the hardware with DVD. You're talking about licensed versus unlicensed technology. All these 35 dollar dvd players exist because manufacturers arent paying the licensing fees for any of the components.

Blu-ray on the other hand has a fucking licensing juggernaut behind it. It's economically impossible for blu-ray to reach that price point, hell I HIGHLY doubt it will ever become hardware price competitive with HD DVD.

Now the discs on the other hand are already about the same price, and will only continue to settle.

If HD-DVD can get a sub 100 dollar player on the market that is backwards compatible, I don't give a shit who is technically superior, they will win the "war".

7/26/2007 2:32:25 AM

But noen...what about the ps3.

7/26/2007 8:20:56 AM

^^See, I can't tell if that's genuine concern or just more baseless Sony bashing, which is what most of this thread consists of. Has Sony ever been in the position where they control the format behind something as widely adopted as home video? God knows they've tried, but I don't think they've ever pulled it off. It's almost always been Sony's proprietary format vs. everyone else.

That's not the case this time. Now you've got Toshiba's proprietary format vs. an ever growing coalition of CE manufacturers who've adopted Blu-Ray. On top of that, you've got movie studios and retail chains picking sides, all so far in Blu-Ray's favor. You can speculate all you want about how Sony is going to price Blu-Ray in the long term, but the fact is, we have no idea. There is no precedent to what's happening here from Sony's end, so all we can look at is the general trend of products getting cheaper as more and more manufacturers produce them. Maybe it we will never see $35 Blu-Ray players, but under $100? That's highly possible.

Look, what Sony did here is very smart. They married a product they are trying to take over a market with, to a product in a market they've already controlled for nearly 10 years. The only reason Blu-Ray players are priced at $500, is because Sony wants to sell PS3s as not only a video game console, but the cheapest way to watch Spider-Man in HD. As soon as the PS3 can stand on it's own on the quality of it's game content (which won't be that long), they won't need to push it as a Blu-Ray player anymore, and we'll start to see the price of standalone players fall.

[Edited on July 26, 2007 at 9:12 AM. Reason : :]

7/26/2007 9:10:10 AM

Just to kind of put a stamp on this whole thing and show how it's come almost full circle from when this thread was started, the Japanese porn industry has now embraced Blu-ray.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,135222-c,dvdtechnology/article.html

http://gear.ign.com/articles/809/809250p1.html

[Edited on July 30, 2007 at 5:05 PM. Reason : :]

7/30/2007 5:01:43 PM

these are the same people who shit on each others faces right?

hahahahahaha

7/30/2007 6:34:53 PM

I know that I, for one, have always wondered what a censored vagina looks like in stunning 1080p.

7/30/2007 6:57:57 PM

^

7/30/2007 8:33:54 PM

Toshiba just bought out Paramount and Dreamworks for HD-DVD

8/20/2007 1:43:16 PM

damn i was gonna bump with ^

they said blue ray has outsold hd-dvd 2:1

8/20/2007 3:26:28 PM

yeah they are outselling them 2:1 but thats because of all the ps3s in the market

8/20/2007 3:44:06 PM

Just to taper this a bit, Fox/MGM released their lineup of Blu-ray releases for the Fall/Winter.

Quote :

"MASTER & COMMANDER OCT. 2 OCT. THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW OCT. 2 OCT. FROM HELL OCT. 9 OCT. THE FLY (1986) OCT. 9 Q1 08 EDWARD SCISSORHANDS OCT. 9 NOV. 28 DAYS LATER OCT. 9 North America Only ROBOCOP (MGM) OCT. 9 DEC. AMITYVILLE HORROR (1979) (MGM) OCT. 9 North America Only BATTLE OF BRITAIN (MGM) NOV. 6 Q1 08 A BRIDGE TOO FAR (MGM) NOV. 6 Q1 08 I, ROBOT NOV. 13 Q1 08 DIE HARD NOV NOV. DIE HARD 2 DIE HARDER NOV NOV. DIE HARD WITH A VENGEANCE NOV NOV. RED DAWN (MGM) NOV Q1 08 MR. AND MRS. SMITH DEC. 4 DEC. INDEPENDENCE DAY DEC. 4 DEC. CAST AWAY DEC. 4 North America Only RONIN (MGM) DEC. 4 DEC "

IMO, that plus the Sony lineup of Spider Man 1-3 trumps anything HD-DVD is putting out. Dreamworks/Paramount going HD-DVD is a big deal, but all it really means is that the war goes on, unfortunate for everyone interested in getting more HD media into their homes.

Apparently, the word is that Microsoft opened up it's warchest and paid Paramount/Dreamworks $150 million to make this happen. It really seems like the initial idea of Microsoft supporting HD-DVD only to try and extend this war as long as possible, to the detriment of both formats may be true. Microsoft has a huge stake in downloadable media and probably wants both formats to fail.

[Edited on August 20, 2007 at 5:35 PM. Reason : :]

8/20/2007 5:24:57 PM

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/08/20/fox-mgm-strike--back-proudly-unveil-slew-of-upcoming-blu-ray/

8/20/2007 5:42:46 PM

tons of blueray burners
barely any hd-dvd writers.

8/20/2007 6:00:49 PM

who the fuck cares...just buy both players or one of the combo players and call it a day.

8/20/2007 6:05:24 PM