10

fucking hell





[Edited on March 11, 2007 at 8:48 PM. Reason : ]

3/11/2007 8:48:22 PM

Yeah, that's what I thought.

3/11/2007 9:49:55 PM

Quote :

"Just move from the big city to the suburbs if your cost of living is too high."

Try to remember that cost of living is only half of the equation (actually, it's well under half, since the cost of moving is prohibitive most of the time anyway, but I'll ignore it for now). There's still the question of where the jobs are.

And then there's all the other stuff. Cities offer proximity and public transportation -- you can get to work and wherever else cheaply or for free. Move out of that situation, and you pretty much have to get a car -- one more big expense on top of the move, which you still, inexplicably, seem to think costs about 45 cents.

Quote :

"Not in all cases, but for some, moving could greatly ease their financial burdon. What's your solution to the problem, dipshit?"

Well, I think the first thing we need is better education for everyone, so that people know how to spell "burden," among other things...

3/12/2007 5:21:13 PM

Quote :

"Well, I think the first thing we need is better education for everyone, so that people know how to spell "burden," among other things..."

A. Better education for kids isn't going to fix adults problems.
B. Oh, snap! You are bitching about my spelling. You must really be getting desperate is that is your best retort.

3/12/2007 8:15:18 PM

A.) "Better education for everyone" is, by definition, not just "better education for kids."
B.) It's only the best I've got if you only read that and completely ignore the rest of my entire fucking post.
C.) Obviously there are other things, although, to some extent, these are irrelevant to what I'm saying. For a great many of these adults it is too late to equip them to substantially better their means. Your 50 year-old mill worker who gets laid off in a mill town and who never made much money to speak of besides is not often going to be able to be retrained in a short enough time for a good enough job that he's going to make it without some outside assistance, be it from family, charity, or, yes, the government.

It is not too late to work on younger people, however.

What I'm effectively arguing is that basic nourishment, housing, and healthcare are:
1) Fundamental human rights, and, moreover
2) In your and everyone else's best long-term interest to provide to those who haven't provided it for themselves.

I am also, of course, supremely concerned with fixing the roots of the problem. You, on the other hand, seem to be exclusively concerned with this, and from what I've seen are unwilling to do anything to help those who are already thoroughly wrapped up in it.

So in short, there are a lot of potential solutions to the problem, but not a single one of them involve removing the government aid for the poor that currently exists.

[Edited on March 13, 2007 at 1:01 AM. Reason : I'll overlook a lot of spelling errors, but "burdon" is just rigoddamdiculous.]

3/13/2007 1:00:57 AM

Quote :

"So in short, there are a lot of potential solutions to the problem, but not a single one of them involve removing the government aid for the poor that currently exists."

I'm still waiting to hear all the potential solutions you mention. You can't just respond to an issue like this by saying education will solve the problem. Could you be broader? I also want to point out that I mentioned college earlier in this thread. What type of education are you talking about and how will education help the single mother of two?

Quote :

"Your 50 year-old mill worker"

I believe you meant to say 50-year-old mill worker

3/13/2007 8:20:20 AM

david higher education typically leads to higher paying jobs. And its the arguement based on the fact that she doesnt have enough money?

Whoever said basic healthcare is a right, i disagree...however in a country this rich I do think people SHOULD have access to BASIC healthcare. But when medicaid covers fertility, viagra, sleeping pills, acne meds, narcotics, hair pills, etc.. i think we have gone far beyond basic, in fact they have much better plans than the majority of us. Where you pay a premium, pay a doctor copay, pay a perscription copay..and if its not covered, you pay full price. Or if you have medicaid you COULD pay a dollar..and bitch about that too.

3/13/2007 9:43:11 AM

Quote :

"david higher education typically leads to higher paying jobs."

Uhhhh, I suggested higher education 5 pages back.

3/13/2007 9:45:33 AM

For one thing, I think I specifically said that education might not help the single mother in a lot of ways. Some sort of actual, sincere, and motivated campaign to educate people on birth control practice might prevent her from being a single mother of three, and you might even be able to pull off some job training.

Overall, though, the target of most of the education is her two kids; it will be far easier to change them, with a far greater return on the investment.

Beyond education, there's government work projects, which I think have potential and might ought to be brought back. The numerous projects FDR launched were successful at simultaneously alleviating poverty, expecting work in return, and oftentimes educating the employees in a slightly higher-skilled labor. Maybe this wouldn't mean giant-ass dams, but I should think it possible to divert some money that is currently handed to people when they're doing nothing into a public-works project.

A modification of school schedules might also go a long way, or at least maybe a program that would be voluntary (on the part of the parents) to keep the kids in school and doing something until a time of day that is more likely to coincide with their schedule. To poor families with younger kids, this would remove the need to stay home or pay child care costs; if they have older kids, it keeps them busy and not idle and criminal.

A basic single-payer health plan would ease a huge chunk of the burden, and if EVERY COUNTRY ON THE PLANET WITH A S-P PLAN IS ANY INDICATOR, it would save the country money in the long run.

Those are a few ideas. Now I'm waiting for you to quote one thing I said about education in the first little bit and ignore the rest of it.

3/13/2007 9:54:01 AM

Quote :

"Whoever said basic healthcare is a right, i disagree...however in a country this rich I do think people SHOULD have access to BASIC healthcare. But when medicaid covers fertility, viagra, sleeping pills, acne meds, narcotics, hair pills, etc.. i think we have gone far beyond basic, in fact they have much better plans than the majority of us. Where you pay a premium, pay a doctor copay, pay a perscription copay..and if its not covered, you pay full price. Or if you have medicaid you COULD pay a dollar..and bitch about that too. "

1) Basic health care isn't a right, eh? Do you think that say, police protection is a right? Out of curiosity, what are our rights?

2) I agree with you, if gov't programs are covering certain "frivolous" drugs, that needs reform.

3) When you, as a non-medicaid-having person, pay a premium, the price is inflated dramatically because hospitals and emergency rooms take care of people without insurance in dire situations and don't ever get paid. You're paying for their health care now, you're just doing it in a convoluted, inflated way that benefits nobody, and unless you honestly want to sit here and tell me that emergency rooms should refuse to treat someone until they clear his insurance, you're going to have to grapple with that.

3/13/2007 10:01:07 AM

Quote :

"Those are a few ideas."

Gov works projects, longer school schedules, basic healthcare. Great ideas, but who is going to pick up the tab for these expenses? Do you really expect employed individuals, some who already receive free healthcare, and lots who have no children to pay for these things?

3/13/2007 10:11:17 AM

I dont consider healthcare a right, but a service. A right is something protected by law, like owning a gun, which I dont, changing jobs, and basic freedoms.

Do a search for a medicaid formulary, its over 400 pages long. It also covers deodorant, artificial tears, listerine, toothpaste.... so when a kid dies from a tooth infection saying he couldnt afford help is just an excuse to the uninformed.

You are right with your third point. Its a health INSURANCE. Just like car insurance you are paying for people who get in a wreck, esp if you dont use it. Politicians LOVE to claim that 43 million dont have health ins. Well there is a HUGE difference between health ins and not recieving treatment. EVERYONE in this country, illegal or not, is guranteed treatment at a hospital. Yes, payers continue to pay for nonpayers. We also have a high percentage of medicaids that use the hospital as a PCP, bc they can go in on thier terms. I do, however, think that a hospital should be able to triage and deny people service. There is no reason 10 people with a sore throat cant call a PCP and be seen. Let them pay 90 bucks, or have thier ins. pay the 90 instead of taxpayers eating a 500 ER visit.

3/13/2007 10:12:21 AM

Quote :

"A right is something protected by law, like owning a gun, which I dont, changing jobs, and basic freedoms."

Bullshit. Rights exist regardless of whether they are codified in law. One can infringe upon them, but they're still there.

Quote :

"Do you really expect employed individuals, some who already receive free healthcare, and lots who have no children to pay for these things?"

Yes, I do, if they want to live in a country that isn't a rubble-heap or a repeat of the French Revolution. You don't seem to be hearing me, doing these things is in your interest too. A large and growing population of poor, uneducated people, especially in a capital- rather than labor-intensive economy, poses a direct and material threat to you and your children. We can either round them up and gas them, which presents its own set of problems, or we can try to ameliorate the problem. If it were fucking free we'd already have done it. It isn't. Tough titty.


Oh, and none of these people you're talking about have "free healthcare." They have healthcare through their employer, which basically means they are paid a salary for their labor. It's not a hard concept.

Quote :

"It also covers deodorant, artificial tears, listerine, toothpaste.... so when a kid dies from a tooth infection saying he couldnt afford help is just an excuse to the uninformed."

These aren't as ridiculous as other things you've mentioned. Aritificial tears are necessary, with some conditions, to maintain sight (which you need to get most jobs, yeah?), and it's also amazingly hard to find work when you have chronic BO and halitosis.

Quote :

"I do, however, think that a hospital should be able to triage and deny people service. "

In major crises, I agree. Otherwise, no. At least, not until you do something to educate people about the importance of seeing a PCP first -- and most people do not know about it. Surprisingly, the fundaments of the health care system are hazy to people with a partial high school education. Also, you'll need to go ahead and make it so that immigrants -- legal and otherwise -- don't have to feel paranoid about doing so.

Quote :

"Well there is a HUGE difference between health ins and not recieving treatment. EVERYONE in this country, illegal or not, is guranteed treatment at a hospital."

Right. Now, look at the simple facts:

1) We spend more on health care per capita than any other industrialized nation.
2) We have some of the worst health statistics of any industrialized nation.

Now, everyone's getting treatment in both places...it's just here, we're paying more with poorer results through our insurance system, and there, they're paying less for better results through the single-payer plan.

HOW IS THIS NOT A NO-BRAINER???

3/13/2007 10:24:09 AM

Quote :

"Yes, I do, if they want to live in a country that isn't a rubble-heap or a repeat of the French Revolution."

That's odd. Last time I checked, I did not live in a country that is a rubble-heap.

Quote :

"A large and growing population of poor, uneducated people, especially in a capital- rather than labor-intensive economy, poses a direct and material threat to you and your children. "

Take out student loans and go to college. That way they won't be poor and uneducated. Paying for their healthcare and letting their kids stay in school longer won't increase the parents' intelligence.

Quote :

"We can either round them up and gas them"

You may be on to something...

3/13/2007 10:30:30 AM

Im with david on alot of this.

We do spend the most on healthcare and why is that? We have great schools and are costly, we have malpractice, technology, and entitlement programs that are grossly out of whack.

You know there is a reason WHY we produce much of the latest and best technology in healthcare? There is MONEY in it. Take away money and you take away the industry. People in this country demand the best, no wait..and if i dont get it.. ill sue. They take no reponsibility for thier own healthcare. I cant tell you how many people I see bitch that thier doctor cant control thier diabetes..but they weight more EVERY YEAR.

There is a reason why canada loses alot of doc to the US. You can look at general numbers and make them fit any arguement. If you want to look at life expectancy, population, and age of population and lifestyle... then we would have a lower life expectancy than a small asian country with virtually NO healthcare and great diets and exercise.. but in the real world, if you got sick which country would you rather be treated in?

Healthcare is getting out of hand from govt becoming more envolved, not less. It will also bankrupt this country if we continue to provide unlimited healthcare for the poor and elderly. Tough decisions have to be made, unfortunately you dont get elected that way.

3/13/2007 11:23:27 AM

Quote :

"Last time I checked, I did not live in a country that is a rubble-heap."

I bet Louis XVI said the same thing.

Quote :

"Take out student loans and go to college."

The problem is already mature by the time that paying for college would be an issue.

Quote :

"We have great schools and are costly, we have malpractice, technology, and entitlement programs that are grossly out of whack."

1) Europe has great schools, too.
2) Malpractice accounts for a negligible part of our healthcare expense -- it doesn't even bear mentioning.
3) Did you think that the Swedes are still using leeches or something? They have technology, too. And whatever they don't have apparently doesn't matter -- as I said, they're getting better care than we are.
4) What's out of whack is the leviathan mess that is the current pay plan in this country.

Quote :

"There is MONEY in it. Take away money and you take away the industry."

I haven't suggested taking away the money. There should be a very easy compromise where those who can afford private insurance do, and those who can't fall under the survey of the single-payer plan. Hell, even going completely to an SPP wouldn't take the money away -- there'd still be a hell of a lot of it moving around, just more efficiently.

Quote :

"If you want to look at life expectancy, population, and age of population and lifestyle... then we would have a lower life expectancy than a small asian country with virtually NO healthcare and great diets and exercise.. but in the real world, if you got sick which country would you rather be treated in?"

I never said anything about such a country. I talked about the industrialized world. Germans are almost as fat as we are and they live longer and fewer dead babies.

And I'd like to see the figures supporting this thundering horde of Canadian doctors.

Quote :

"It will also bankrupt this country if we continue to provide unlimited healthcare for the poor and elderly."

I was unaware that Western Europe was going bankrupt; please do go on.

3/13/2007 11:56:36 AM

Germany, fat? Are you on something?

http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/2007/02/07/worlds-fattest-countries-forbeslife-cx_ls_0208worldfat_2.html

3/13/2007 12:09:29 PM

Quote :

"The problem is already mature by the time that paying for college would be an issue."

How so?

3/13/2007 12:13:15 PM

thanks 409, facts matter little to some.

Malpractice is not big deal and not worth mentioning. Another OUTSTANDING observation. I guess OBGYNs are having difficulty staying in business bc thier CAR insurance is too high.

Again, you can skew the numbers all you want, but malpractice is a huge issue. Sure the payments PAID to plantiffs might be a fraction, but guess what, your PREMIUMS go through the roof. We got dropped by our ins. bc we got sued about a sign being incorrect. So our malpractice ins increased by 30%.. thats real cost my friend. Sure we never paid a plantiff, but our malpractice surely did go up for something trivial. I assume, by your logic, that if you filled a claim with your auto insurance they wouldnt raise your rate?

3/13/2007 12:50:57 PM

^^Well damn. Either my professor was stupid, had outdated info, or I had a terrible lapse of memory. I apologize.

Quote :

"How so?"

If you've got two kids who are identical in every capacity at birth, have one raised by a lower-class single parent, and another by a middle-class set of parents, and tell me if you honestly think that at age 18 you think they're equally likely to be worrying about how they're going to pay for college. The first kid has probably gone to a worse school and received far less help and encouragement in the direction of higher education. By the time he gets to be 18, the damage is done. Higher education isn't going to help because he's not going to get into college and he probably doesn't even have the motivation to go anymore anyway.

Quote :

"thanks 409, facts matter little to some."

I was just saying what I seemed to recall hearing in a class last year. And while Germany wasn't the best example, other countries on that list fit the role fine.

Quote :

"Again, you can skew the numbers all you want, but malpractice is a huge issue. Sure the payments PAID to plantiffs might be a fraction, but guess what, your PREMIUMS go through the roof. We got dropped by our ins. bc we got sued about a sign being incorrect. So our malpractice ins increased by 30%.. thats real cost my friend. Sure we never paid a plantiff, but our malpractice surely did go up for something trivial. I assume, by your logic, that if you filled a claim with your auto insurance they wouldnt raise your rate?"

So let me get this straight: you have a problem caused by private insurance?

Well I'll be damned, that's exactly what I've been saying THIS ENTIRE GODDAMN TIME.

[Edited on March 13, 2007 at 12:53 PM. Reason : ]

3/13/2007 12:51:01 PM

Quote :

"If you've got two kids who are identical in every capacity at birth, have one raised by a lower-class single parent, and another by a middle-class set of parents, and tell me if you honestly think that at age 18 you think they're equally likely to be worrying about how they're going to pay for college. The first kid has probably gone to a worse school and received far less help and encouragement in the direction of higher education. By the time he gets to be 18, the damage is done. Higher education isn't going to help because he's not going to get into college and he probably doesn't even have the motivation to go anymore anyway."

Bullshit. I went to a bumfuck public school in Creedmoor. I studied hard so I could go to college. I wasn't forced or pressured to go to college by middle-class set of parents. I went to college because I wanted to. I had to do well in school to get there, so that's what I did. Teenagers need to take some damn responsibility for their futures. They can't use their parents as scapegoats forever.

3/13/2007 1:04:24 PM

grumpy, I have a problem with people that say malpractice has little effect on healthcare costs.

The govt sets the bar, they are the pace car so to speak for other ins. companies. No one goes faster/pays more than the pace car. So they set the reimbursement schedules and every damn insurance company with thier 50 plans each follow suit, usually for less. And, they dont print that shit on cards, so I have people on the phone and internet trying to figure out what plan and benefits they have, they also dont make it easy to find out what if any of thier deductible is paid. People dont know shit about thier own insurance so that complicates things more. "Im not supposed to pay for anything, and I can have anything in her I want...thats what i was told", so you have to deal with these dumbasses. Anyway, you are right a single payers systems works best.. and its called CASH.

3/13/2007 1:16:53 PM

Quote :

"Teenagers need to take some damn responsibility for their futures."

O rly? So we don't think they're responsible enough to vote, drink, or smoke cigarettes, but they're damn sure responsible enough to have total autonomous control of their future? Intriguing...

Besides that, though...

1) If you think Creedmoor is bumfuck, you are a poorly-travelled man.
2) I spoke of likelihoods and probabilities. Of course there are kids born into poor families who did well, and there are kids born into rich families that did shitty. But you know full fucking well that those are the exceptions to the rule.
3) If you actually wanted to go to college, there were obviously some different conditions in your youth than there are for many people who are otherwise very similar to you.
4) Some people aren't smart enough to get a higher education regardless. Do we just tell these people, "Sucks to be you, hope we don't have a cold snap."?

Quote :

"grumpy, I have a problem with people that say malpractice has little effect on healthcare costs."

Yes, well, that's because you appear to have been personally burned before. Your bias is apparent, as is the thoroughly anecdotal nature of the evidence you've put forth so far.

And once again, every single word you said in that post screams, "The problem is private insurance!" So I get that you're agreeing with me, I don't understand why you're agreeing so angrily, though.

3/13/2007 1:29:11 PM

I always thought you could vote at 18. did they change that?

Grumpy, I do get rilled up talking about healthcare and ins., I dont mean to come off as angry though. Malpractice is a big cost to healthcare, If you dont like our practices personal example, just look to OBGYNs.

3/13/2007 1:38:10 PM

Quote :

"So we don't think they're responsible enough to vote, drink, or smoke cigarettes"

I never made such a claim. Besides, many of them do drink and smoke.

Quote :

"they're damn sure responsible enough to have total autonomous control of their future?"

Yes. They are adults. If they commit murder do you blame the parents as well? Do you arrest the parents and put them in jail?

Quote :

"1) If you think Creedmoor is bumfuck, you are a poorly-travelled man."

I'll ignore your spelling error. Obviously there are towns which are more rural than Creedmoor, but it is bumfuck compared to Raleigh, and even more bumfuck compared to a big city.

Quote :

"I spoke of likelihoods and probabilities. Of course there are kids born into poor families who did well, and there are kids born into rich families that did shitty. But you know full fucking well that those are the exceptions to the rule."

Well, the two kids in Bridget's scenario were born into a poor family. So, are you saying they are now fucked for life?

Quote :

"3) If you actually wanted to go to college, there were obviously some different conditions in your youth than there are for many people who are otherwise very similar to you."

You mean instead of being lazy I actually took some initiative? Oh look, we're back to the original topic.

Quote :

"4) Some people aren't smart enough to get a higher education regardless. Do we just tell these people, "Sucks to be you, hope we don't have a cold snap."?"

Yeah, pretty much. Ever hear of Darwinism?

3/13/2007 1:44:14 PM

No no, be angry, I'm just confused by the concept of angrily agreeing. Since so far I haven't seen much that you've said that does anything but support my position.

Quote :

"I always thought you could vote at 18."

Sigh...we're talking about people in the years prior to college. Yes, 18 and 19 are still technically teenagers, but work with me here. . . the point is, he's expecting people younger than 18, still in high school, to take responsibility for this, even though we tend to think they aren't responsible enough to be in charge of anything else.

3/13/2007 1:44:45 PM

Quote :

"we tend to think they aren't responsible enough to be in charge of anything else"

There you go again talking about "we"

3/13/2007 1:50:38 PM

Quote :

"I never made such a claim. Besides, many of them do drink and smoke."

So wait, you're saying that teenagers, 14 year olds and such, are by and large competent to dictate their own affairs? Because this opens up a whole new can of worms.

Quote :

"If they commit murder do you blame the parents as well?"

This has nothing to do with blame. People are at least partly a product of their circumstances. That much is pretty much undeniable. Parents don't have to be bad to create an environment in which higher education is less of an option; just being poor will often suffice.

But to answer you directly, no, I want the kid arrested, not the parents, but that's because I see the penal system as a way of removing threatening elements from society, and "holding people accountable" has much less to do with it for me.

Quote :

"Obviously there are towns which are more rural than Creedmoor, but it is bumfuck compared to Raleigh, and even more bumfuck compared to a big city."

Don't you get that in some respects that is an advantage? My whole point is that inner-city schools are bad. So are poor rural schools. You know where the good schools are? Where the rich people live. Either poor people can't move there (property values, prices, etc) or, once they do move there, the rich people flee and the schools start sucking.

Quote :

"Well, the two kids in Bridget's scenario were born into a poor family. So, are you saying they are now fucked for life?"

DID YOU READ A WORD I SAID? ONE SINGLE, SOLITARY WORD?

No, they're not fucked. They're simply more likely to be fucked.

Quote :

"You mean instead of being lazy I actually took some initiative?"

I say "conditions" and you hear "personal attributes." That's lovely, it really is.

Quote :

"Yeah, pretty much. Ever hear of Darwinism?"

Ohhhhh, OK.

For the record, it was the exact moment that you suggested this that I quit this thread and wrote you off as a loss to humanity.

3/13/2007 1:52:08 PM

grumpy I expect the parent to be parents, and not best friends with thier kids. My mom made sure I kept my ass in line, which I hated at the time. If I got a C, I didnt play sports..which meant alot to me at the time, so I made sure I never got one...well in season.

While I partially agree with the darwinism post. Look we all dont come up with great ideas and manage companies. i dont expect to have a bill gates lifestyle without a bill gates idea. Its easy for people to sit and bitch about thier life and what other people should give them, but its another thing to actually do something about it. No one got bridget's example into her situation but her, do i feel bad for her? No. Even though I feel eye docs are more important that a pro basketball player.. but no one seems to agree...until they get something stuck in their eye..but they still wont pay me 10M a year.

I think thats what he meant by darwinsim. People who dont work, or work unskilled jobs complaining that they dont live like a hilton, or even an electrician.

3/13/2007 2:04:41 PM

Quote :

"So wait, you're saying that teenagers, 14 year olds and such, are by and large competent to dictate their own affairs?"

I'm saying that can make the effort to do well and school and attend college.

Quote :

""holding people accountable" has much less to do with it for me."

So, we should not hold people accountable for their actions?

Quote :

"My whole point is that inner-city schools are bad. So are poor rural schools. "

How was I supposed to figure that out when you were trying to debate if Creedmoor was bumfuck or not? Isn't that statement kind of a given anyways?

Quote :

"They're simply more likely to be fucked."

You mean it's better to grow up rich with two parents than poor with one parent? Obviously they are more likely to be fucked, but it sounds as though you just write them all off.

Quote :

"I say "conditions" and you hear "personal attributes." That's lovely, it really is."

So, now you want to argue semantics?

Quote :

"wrote you off as a loss to humanity."

You already did that when you started making comments about rural/public schools.

3/13/2007 2:08:15 PM

eyedrb -- I'm glad someone correctly interpreted what I said.

3/13/2007 2:10:19 PM

By the way, you guys can stop talking about my example.

The only reason why I brought it up was to point out that not all people are struggling because they spend their money on "drugs," "cell phones," and "meals out." The fact that 1337 b4k4 actually thought he made that budget so easily was just a bonus.

Anyway, I think we all agree now that rallydurham was incorrect with that assertion.

If you want, we can talk about my friend who dropped out of high school at 16 to work full-time so she could help her mother out with the household bills that included care for her brother who had mental retardation.

Or my friend whose mother was addicted to crack-cocaine ([user]rallydurhams[/user]'s kind of poor person). He was the youngest of 13 brothers and sisters who cared for him when they could, but he was effectively homeless for all four years of high school. Man, he needed to just "take some damn responsibility for his future," isn't that right, David0603...

I'm not making these people up, by the way.

3/13/2007 11:00:59 PM

Quote :

"Man, he needed to just "take some damn responsibility for his future," isn't that right, David0603..."

Haven't you been reading Grumpy's posts? Kids aren't responsible for anything these days. Besides, if they grow up poor, or without two parents, we can just write them off, since they'll be fucked for life.

I hope I don't lose any sleep over those people you listed. I doubt I will. My high thread count sheets are just too damn comfy. I wish the American tax payers would pay for everyone to have high thread count sheets. I had to go through all the trouble of going to college and getting a job to pay for them myself. Can you believe that???

3/13/2007 11:13:20 PM

Quote :

"Haven't you been reading Grumpy's posts? Kids aren't responsible for anything these days. Besides, if they grow up poor, or without two parents, we can just write them off, since they'll be fucked for life."

1. He didn't say kids aren't responsible for anything these days.
2. He didn't say we can write them off.

Are you retarded?

Quote :

"I hope I don't lose any sleep over those people you listed. I doubt I will. My high thread count sheets are just too damn comfy. I wish the American tax payers would pay for everyone to have high thread count sheets. I had to go through all the trouble of going to college and getting a job to pay for them myself. Can you believe that???"

VPT

(very poor trolling)

3/14/2007 12:41:41 AM

Quote :

"Anyway, I think we all agree now that rallydurham was incorrect with that assertion."

Hahaha, we can???

Okay have fun in fantasyland over there with all you other wingnuts

3/15/2007 5:58:16 PM

Poor people?



No sir, I don't like 'em.

3/15/2007 6:20:33 PM

Wow, that was a long 10 pages. As for my opinions of the poor, I'm not going to categorically say they're lazy, drug users, or spend all their money on luxuries. However, I'm no socialist and expect adults to be responsible for taking care of their problems. Of course, it didn't take someone long to point out that poor people often have children. And philosophically I don't think anyone is born special, so I don't think some kids are more or less deserving of food, education, etc. So yeah... tough dilemma.

3/20/2007 11:54:23 AM

Quote :

"Of course, it didn't take someone long to point out that poor people often have children."

I am not sure what you mean by poor but poverty is caused by children. Poverty among mentally and physically healthly single adults is extremely low - virtually non-existant depending on how you define "mentally healthy"

We have very few anti-poverty programs in the US that are not aimed at children. TANF is for children, as is Section 8 housing, as is food stamps essentially (you can get food stamps without kids but the requirements are ludricously low income and no vehicle), as is most of non-disabled Medicaid.

3/20/2007 1:03:35 PM