Quote :

"You are quite daft at making a point, you know"

What a gas. This from someone who doesn't dispute that greenhouse gasses affect climate change, yet claims to be unclear as to what climate change actually is.

5/20/2009 9:16:00 AM

And no one is mentioning the fact that earlier in the sentence they are going to OPEN up the credit line, so we are going to loan them MORE fucking taxpayer dollars... fucking brillant.

5/20/2009 9:57:34 AM

So Obama claims that 40mpg cars are what Americans want. Funny, if that's what Americans wanted, that's what the automobile manufacturers would be selling. Too bad most people don't care about fuel efficiency when gas is below $4/gal.

One of two things will happen, neither good. Americans will buy more foreign automobiles not held to these retarded CAFE standards. Obama won't like that, so the gov't will probably tax gasoline so that its above $4/gal. And then people will want these cars mandated by the gov't. Funny how all that works.

5/20/2009 11:52:33 AM

Quote :

"Funny, if that's what Americans wanted, that's what the automobile manufacturers would be selling"

well i think that american car companies have shown they have no clue what americans want in a car.

5/20/2009 1:27:47 PM

The only thing the car companies ever intended to have a clue about is selling a large number of cars on high margins.

They figured out that a minority of consumers would be willing to fork out $4k over production costs for a car that had leg room and drove like a tank. There is, and will never be, a constituency of consumers willing to fork over $4k over production costs for a fuel efficient car that saves $3k in gas costs over it's lifetime, and it remains to be proven that they'll pay $1k over production costs for such a car, except maybe in the case of (non plug in) hybrids which have little to no chance of a full payback.

Add on top of that, the market has been making companies as disposable as the cars they produce. We have created all kinds of incentives to keep companies from being risk adverse and GM in particular has been numb to the sustainability of their business model. Such an epic failure as this took the cooperation of many parts of society.

Now I just can't wait to go out and buy my Obamacar in 2013.

5/20/2009 1:49:20 PM

Quote :

"What a gas. This from someone who doesn't dispute that greenhouse gasses affect climate change, yet claims to be unclear as to what climate change actually is."

Again, where are you getting this idea? I've asked you to explain what you are trying to say, and you won't. You just throw out another insane accusation. In short, explain yourself, or shut the fuck up!

Quote :

"Americans will buy more foreign automobiles not held to these retarded CAFE standards."

Ok, people keep saying this. I certainly hope that CAFE standards are not applied only to US automakers. That would be the epitome of retardedness.

5/20/2009 7:01:52 PM

Quote :

"Americans will buy more foreign automobiles"

Sorry pat you've already missed the boat on that one.

People already buy more foreign automobiles. Perhaps you should have shown your patriotism by buy a car from a REAL AMURICAN CAR COMPANY instead of your rice rocket.

5/20/2009 7:30:03 PM

If I wanted a full sized sedan I would have bought a G8 GT. They have no other cars I'd be interested in that I can afford at the moment.

5/20/2009 8:41:12 PM

i bought a foreign car because it got better mileage and drove a whole lot better than the comparable US models. And I am glad I did. When my car was in the shop, my rental car was the exact model of the US car I had considered. I hated every minute of driving that piece of shit.

5/20/2009 9:28:02 PM

Was this posted yet

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/05/letter_from_a_dodge_dealer.html


Really hope that lands on some senators desk.

5/20/2009 11:15:10 PM

Quote :

"Again, where are you getting this idea?"

Gee, I don't know, maybe when you said this: "Never denied that putting GHGs in the air will 'affect climate change,' whatever that means."

But if you need me to clarify my point, it was this: People who deny in that higher levels of greenhouse gasses (such as methane) in the atmosphere will affect global warming are less than credible when it comes to environmental science, and are more likely to emphasize only the economic ramifications of environmental regulation.

So, yes, I was making an assumption about you. But honestly, saying things like "climate change, whatever that means" doesn't do much to counter my assumption.

[Edited on May 21, 2009 at 5:59 AM. Reason : ]

5/21/2009 5:46:44 AM

Thanks for posting that Fail Boat. Sad. But where is the outrage? Oh look its rush and sarah palin...look over there.

5/21/2009 9:17:07 AM

^^^ I don't understand the letter. Is the government causing Chrysler to breech that dealer's franchise agreement? Or did the agreement give Chrysler the right to ruin his life like that?

If it is the former then he should bring the contract signed by Chrysler down to a courthouse and sue, while writing a letter to America (as he has). If it is the latter, then why did he sign such an agreement? One purpose of contracts is to prevent those we are in business with from arbitrarily screwing us, so if this is the case then it is just another lesson to always read your contracts.

5/21/2009 9:59:49 AM

I find it odd how your slant is always coming down on the side of big business. It's typically subtle, but always there.

5/21/2009 10:05:59 AM

I don't understand either.

Quote :

"Letter from a Dodge dealer letter to the editor My name is George C. Joseph. I am the sole owner of Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu, a family owned and operated business in Melbourne, Florida. My family bought and paid for this automobile franchise 35 years ago in 1974. I am the second generation to manage this business. We currently employ 50+ people and before the economic slowdown we employed over 70 local people. We are active in the community and the local chamber of commerce. We deal with several dozen local vendors on a day to day basis and many more during a month. All depend on our business for part of their livelihood. We are financially strong with great respect in the market place and community. We have strong local presence and stability. I work every day the store is open, nine to ten hours a day. I know most of our customers and all our employees. Sunshine Dodge is my life. On Thursday, May 14, 2009 I was notified that my Dodge franchise, that we purchased, will be taken away from my family on June 9, 2009 without compensation and given to another dealer at no cost to them. My new vehicle inventory consists of 125 vehicles with a financed balance of 3 million dollars. This inventory becomes impossible to sell with no factory incentives beyond June 9, 2009. Without the Dodge franchise we can no longer sell a new Dodge as "new," nor will we be able to do any warranty service work. Additionally, my Dodge parts inventory, (approximately $300,000.) is virtually worthless without the ability to perform warranty service. There is no offer from Chrysler to buy back the vehicles or parts inventory. Our facility was recently totally renovated at Chrysler's insistence, incurring a multi-million dollar debt in the form of a mortgage at Sun Trust Bank. HOW IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CAN THIS HAPPEN? THIS IS A PRIVATE BUSINESS NOT A GOVERNMENT ENTITY This is beyond imagination! My business is being stolen from me through NO FAULT OF OUR OWN. We did NOTHING wrong. This atrocity will most likely force my family into bankruptcy. This will also cause our 50+ employees to be unemployed. How will they provide for their families? This is a total economic disaster. HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? I beseech your help, and look forward to your reply. Thank you. Sincerely, George C. Joseph President & Owner Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu "

The dealership will be taken away? This makes no sense. Of course that would cause outrage, but wtf? I have no idea what he's saying is happening. For real.

5/21/2009 10:14:10 AM

^^ You act as if a big business has never signed a contract with unfavorable terms. But no, I suspect the bias is caused by your choice of examples. Afterall, you have never pointed out an event where a big corporate was taking its lumps for signing an unfavorable contract, therefore if we assume that I am always going to be in favor of honoring unfavorable contracts then while talking to you I will never be seen to argue against the big business.

Therefore, I will introduce an example. Just last year a big business named Sprint changed the fee it was charging for text messages. In-so-doing, it found itself in technical breech of the agreement it signed with its customers and therefore they now had the right to break their contract without penalty, even if they used that contract to get a $300 phone for free and only had the service for a month. That eventuality hurt Sprint a lot, but it took its losses, rewrote its agreements to remove the loophole in the future, and went on with life. What it didn't do was lobby the government to let it out of contracts signed by its own agents.

5/21/2009 10:35:34 AM

Quote :

"People who deny in that higher levels of greenhouse gasses (such as methane) in the atmosphere will affect global warming are less than credible when it comes to environmental science, and are more likely to emphasize only the economic ramifications of environmental regulation."

Wow, I had no idea that methane, a flammable gas, came out in the exhaust of automobiles!

5/21/2009 4:58:51 PM

We were talking about cow farts.

5/22/2009 6:15:57 AM

^^^^He isn't going to lose his dealership; just his franchise. That means he will no longer be able to sell new Dodge Vehicles, nor perform warranty repairs. Sounds like a death knell for his dealership, but this is what happens in bankruptcy.

What makes it particularly unfortunate is the fact that the dealer was just recently forced to renovate his facility at great personal cost, to retain the franchise that he'll now lose anyways.

[Edited on May 22, 2009 at 9:24 AM. Reason : grammar]

5/22/2009 9:23:33 AM

Quote :

"So Obama claims that 40mpg cars are what Americans want. Funny, if that's what Americans wanted, that's what the automobile manufacturers would be selling. Too bad most people don't care about fuel efficiency when gas is below $4/gal. One of two things will happen, neither good. Americans will buy more foreign automobiles not held to these retarded CAFE standards. Obama won't like that, so the gov't will probably tax gasoline so that its above $4/gal. And then people will want these cars mandated by the gov't. Funny how all that works."

*sigh* ok, here we go:

1. What's the fastest growing segment among autos in America right now? Initiatives or not, the American people are buying smaller than in the past. Explain the growth of Mini, VW, Toyota, and Honda in this market if that's not true.

2. Foreign cars usually meet those retarded CAFE standards. Why? Because the standards are higher in their countries! Even in China! Not to mention, most Hondas and Toyotas made for this market are made in the US now.

Hahahahah, what foreign car did you have in mind that wouldn't meet our CAFE standards? Is there seriously a foreign made car that comes anywhere near the inefficiency of what GM and Chrysler have churned out in the past decade?

I don't think initiatives mandated by the Federal govt. are necessary to make people drive better cars, but you seem to think that these standards aren't in-line with recent trends. Even if these standards aren't necessary, they're in-line with buying trends, and you apparently don't see that.

Sorry, I just have a problem w/ big car people that seriously think the American people are dumb enough to keep demanding Tahoes and shit.

I also don't have much sympathy for dealers. They were running an unsustainable business model and now they're finding out that they aren't needed. Boo hoo. I would have hoped that any CEO would have been smart enough to realize that there are too fucking many dealerships for the numbers of cars sold.

[Edited on May 22, 2009 at 2:27 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2009 2:24:43 PM

^I don't agree with all of that, but don't get the wrong idea about me. I've never owned an automobile that couldn't get 30mpg or better.

5/22/2009 3:01:04 PM

Quote :

"Foreign cars usually meet those retarded CAFE standards. Why? Because the standards are higher in their countries!"

That is not how I understand it. I don't believe Europe has CAFE standards of any sort. What they have are high gasoline taxes and road taxes which make owning an inefficient car extremely costly. It is only America where corporations were able to bribe congress into granting them the gift of CAFE standards which have been used almost exclusively to curtail competition.

5/22/2009 5:48:05 PM

Quote :

"People who deny in that higher levels of greenhouse gasses (such as methane) in the atmosphere will affect global warming are less than credible when it comes to environmental science, and are more likely to emphasize only the economic ramifications of environmental regulation."

1) The science of climate fear-mongering is far from settled, and there are numerous threads on this subject.
2) Great example of "poisoning the well."

Quote :

"But honestly, saying things like "climate change, whatever that means" doesn't do much to counter my assumption."

Aha, now we get to the heart of it. I didn't say "climate change, whatever that means." I said "affect climate change, whatever that means." Reading comprehension is key, and you clearly fail at that.

Quote :

"I find it odd how your slant is always coming down on the side of big business. It's typically subtle, but always there."

Seems to me that he is coming down on the side of a CONTRACT. how dare we honour our agreements

Quote :

"Sounds like a death knell for his dealership, but this is what happens in bankruptcy. "

I still don;t understand how getting rid of a bunch of dealerships which costs them NOTHING helps them in a bankruptcy proceeding...

5/22/2009 6:25:58 PM

Quote :

"Hahahahah, what foreign car did you have in mind that wouldn't meet our CAFE standards? Is there seriously a foreign made car that comes anywhere near the inefficiency of what GM and Chrysler have churned out in the past decade?"

Quote :

"Least Fuel Efficient Cars Least Efficient Two Seaters Lamborghini Murcielago, 12 cyl, 6.5 L, Man(6) 8 13 Lamborghini Murcielago Roadster, 12 cyl, 6.5 L, Man(6) Least Efficient Minicompact Cars Aston Martin DB9, 12 cyl, 5.9 L, Man(6) 11 17 Least Efficient Subcompact Cars Bentley Continental GTC, 12 cyl, 6 L, Auto(6) 10 17 Least Efficient Compact Cars Bentley Azure, 12 cyl, 6.7 L, Auto(S6) 9 15 Least Efficient Midsize Cars Ferrari 612 Scaglietti, 12 cyl, 5.7 L, Auto(6) 9 16 Least Efficient Large Cars Bentley Arnage RL, 8 cyl, 6.7 L, Auto(S6) 9 15 Least Efficient Small Station Wagons Saab 9-3 Aero SportCombi AWD,6 cyl, 2.8 L, Manual 6-spd 15 24 Saab 9-3 Aero SportCombi AWD,6 cyl, 2.8 L, Automatic (S6) Saab 9-3 SportCombi,6 cyl, 2.8 L, Automatic (S6), Least Efficient Midsize Station Wagons Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG, 8 cyl, 6.2 L, Auto(S7) Least Efficient Small Pickup Trucks Ford Ranger Pickup 4WD,6cyl, 4.0L, Auto(5) 14 18 Mazda B4000 4WD,6cyl, 4.0L, Auto(5) Least Efficient Standard Pickup Trucks Nissan Titan 4WD 8 cyl, 5.6 L, Automatic 5-spd, Regular. 12 17 Least Efficient Sport Utility Vehicles Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD, 8 cyl, 5.4L, Auto(5) 11 14 Least Efficient Minivans Toyota Sienna 4WD, 6 cyl, 3.5 L, Auto(5) 16 21 Least Efficient Cargo Vans Chevrolet Van 1500 AWD Conversion, 8 cyl, 5.3 L, Auto(4) 12 15 GMC Savana 1500 AWD Conversion, 8 cyl, 5.3 L, Auto(4) Least Efficient Passenger Vans Chevrolet Express 1500 AWD, 8 cyl, 5.3 L, Auto(4) 12 15 GMC Savana 1500 AWD , 8 cyl, 5.3 L, Auto(4) "

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml

Sure, they are at the extreme end, and american manufacturers have more but lets not pretend foreign manufacturers didn't jump on the inefficient bandwagon when gas was cheaper too.

Quote :

"I still don;t understand how getting rid of a bunch of dealerships which costs them NOTHING helps them in a bankruptcy proceeding..."

I don't either, nor does it seem like that's what they're doing. He says they're taking his franchise and giving it to another dealer, but it's way too light on details. Who is taking his franchise? Under what claimed authority? Why?

5/22/2009 7:44:08 PM

^ ok that list is pointless. if you can afford most of those cars you dont worry about gas prices. the "inefficient bandwagon" doesn't exist for cars. there is the truck/suv bandwagon most manufacturers got on but didn't bet their existence on the sale of trucks/suvs.

[Edited on May 22, 2009 at 7:56 PM. Reason : .]

5/22/2009 7:50:25 PM

^ you might want to think about that some more. Toyota is getting hammered right now because they bet the farm on the Tundra...

5/22/2009 8:16:19 PM

Fine, look at the other lists. Foreign cars dominate the bottom of the compact list, are about tied on the mid size list, just barely eek out on the large car list, the make a solid showing at the bottom of the SUV list (though that entire list is dominated by american manufacturers), tie the bottom of the standard pickup list, and make up almost the entirety of the stationwagon lists. Again, I'm not saying american manufactures did better, but lets not pretend the foreign manufactures were the saviors of america's air.

[Edited on May 22, 2009 at 8:39 PM. Reason : asdf]

5/22/2009 8:32:29 PM

http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/22/news/economy/gm/index.htm

Let them drown. Fuck GM, their shitty management decisions, and their shitty SUVs/Cars/Trucks

5/23/2009 11:31:08 AM

Quote :

"^ ok that list is pointless. if you can afford most of those cars you dont worry about gas prices. the "inefficient bandwagon" doesn't exist for cars."

Hence the need for CAFE standards to help curtail their sales in America, driving up the profits of politically influential GM which was big enough to achieve the required averages.

5/23/2009 11:39:27 AM

ok did anyone actually look at the list? Bentley, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Ferrari and Saab station wagon.... these are not american car companies competition.. the only possible benefit from curtailing sales of the vehicles from the list is taking the Nissan Titan and Toyota Sienna out of competition with american companies.

Quote :

"Let them drown. Fuck GM, their shitty management decisions, and their shitty SUVs/Cars/Trucks"

too bad there is nothing that can be done about the past people who put them on this course..

5/23/2009 1:17:14 PM

from the article:

Quote :

"The Treasury has indicated it wants to protect the interest of the taxpayers who have given billions to the automaker."

Oh really? How do you propose to do that by forgiving the debt, assholes?


Seriously, I can't wait until we can get a few months past this and all of the fucking corruption stories start to surface so we can see just how dirty this administration is. it will make the dubya administration look like saints by comparison

5/23/2009 2:37:03 PM

^sadly I agree. They say and do the total opposite from one day to another. It would be very funny if they werent pissing away our money.

5/23/2009 4:09:46 PM

Quote :

"Fine, look at the other lists. Foreign cars dominate the bottom of the compact list, are about tied on the mid size list, just barely eek out on the large car list, the make a solid showing at the bottom of the SUV list (though that entire list is dominated by american manufacturers), tie the bottom of the standard pickup list, and make up almost the entirety of the stationwagon lists. Again, I'm not saying american manufactures did better, but lets not pretend the foreign manufactures were the saviors of america's air."

Bentley and high-end roadsters aren't a good representation of the average auto in this market. This is like characterizing the chocolate market with Godiva.

It's still clear that on average foreign manufacturers make better cars. Compare the largest European company (VW) with the largest American (GM).

FWIW, Toyota has cut production of the Tundra waaaaay down. They had to lay off people at that factory this year.

5/23/2009 4:14:56 PM

Quote :

"fucking corruption stories start to surface so we can see just how dirty this administration is"

The automotive "bailout" was in the works when homeboy GOP Prez George Dubya was in office. Corporate welfare aka privatize the profits socialize the losses is the GOP standard practice and interpretation of American capitalism. Do not even try to push this as THE LIBERALS ARE BAILING OUT BIG BUSINESSES B.C THEY HATE CAPITALISM. If McPalin were in office we'd see the same fucking shit for Detroit and Wallstreet; the only difference being the other articles that actually aid the American people (not that i completely agree with all of this).

5/23/2009 6:40:06 PM

I do think you would have seen the continued auto bailout with mccain and even another stimulus plan.. but smaller and with less pork I feel. What you woudl not see is the push for universal health, which woudl be a major positive. ALthough im hoping he was bluffing on cap n trade. Like I said during the election, they were both going in the wrong direction just one was easier to recover from than the other. imo But its pointless to debate what mccain would have done if he got elected. We can point to the actual FACTS of what is going on NOW.

5/23/2009 8:29:56 PM

^^ you really thing McPalin would be lambasting the bond-holders for asking for more than 10 cents on the dollar on their CONTRACTS? You really think McPalin would be trying everything in their power to give the UAW control of GM and Chrysler? Give me a fucking break.

5/23/2009 9:52:46 PM

Quote :

"SCULLY (CSPAN): When you see GM though as “Government Motors,” you're reaction? OBAMA: Well, you know – look we are trying to help an auto industry that is going through a combination of bad decision making over many years and an unprecedented crisis or at least a crisis we haven't seen since the 1930's. And you know the economy is going to bounce back and we want to get out of the business of helping auto companies as quickly as we can. I have got more enough to do without that. In the same way that I want to get out of the business of helping banks, but we have to make some strategic decisions about strategic industries... "

Last quarter, GM blew through $10 Billion of our tax money. Gone. Vanished.

And now, having politicians and unions in charge of the company, it is still making bad decisions.

Go to the light, GM.

5/23/2009 10:21:33 PM

^I wish Obama would have mentioned how the government's been fucking the Big Three in the ass for the last few decades as well. But of course he wouldn't mention that.

5/25/2009 6:28:19 PM

Quote :

"you really thing McPalin would be lambasting the bond-holders for asking for more than 10 cents on the dollar on their CONTRACTS?"

Yes. What do you think he did to the people who opposed McCain-Feignold?

The only difference is that he would have simply kept the loot for himself (i.e., the Federal Government) instead of handing it over to the UAW.

Whoopee.

5/25/2009 6:32:05 PM

forgive me, but I'm not making the connection between McCain-Feingold and the car companies.

as well, I'd be happy if he "kept the loot for the gubment." It's a hell of a lot better than rewarding part of the problem for being, you know, part of the problem.

5/26/2009 10:37:18 PM

Quote :

"forgive me, but I'm not making the connection between McCain-Feingold and the car companies."

It's that he routinely bullies and villainizes anybody who opposes him. He did it with McCain-Feignold in rather spectacular fashion, and he'd sure as hell do it again if he was in charge of this debacle.

Quote :

"as well, I'd be happy if he "kept the loot for the gubment." It's a hell of a lot better than rewarding part of the problem for being, you know, part of the problem."

Pissing away billions of taxpayer dollars on an ill-thought out bailout is okay, as long as we don't help the unions?

I suppose this explains the GOP's approach to 8 years of Bush: Socialism is okay, as long as it's our socialism.

5/26/2009 10:50:59 PM

ahhh, gotcha on M-F now. To be fair, though, even NPR today reported that Obama accused the hold-outs of being "unpatriotic..." Kind of sounds like someone else we know, right?

Quote :

"Pissing away billions of taxpayer dollars on an ill-thought out bailout is okay, as long as we don't help the unions? "

If he keeps the money for the gubment, is he really "pissing away money on a bailout?" eh?

5/26/2009 11:18:35 PM

Quote :

"NPR today reported that Obama accused the hold-outs of being "unpatriotic..." Kind of sounds like someone else we know, right?"

If that's true, just wow. What a screaming deal, 10 cents on the dollar!!!! Take it or you're unpatriotic. What a dick.

5/27/2009 12:47:21 PM

Quote :

"CNN: Filing for bankruptcy maybe not so bad for GM"

BANGS-HEAD-AGAINST-WALL

Jesus where was this headline 6 months ago.

5/28/2009 8:40:46 AM

i think it was buried somewhere beneath the "OMG OBAMA :CREAM:" articles

5/28/2009 8:45:44 AM

Quote :

"What a screaming deal, 10 cents on the dollar!!!! Take it or you're unpatriotic. What a dick."

Yeah, I still haven't gotten a straight answer as to why UAW debt is somehow more valuable than bondholder debt. Maybe I'm missing something.

The difference between this bankruptcy and Chrysler's is that GM has many thousands of bondholders, mostly individuals as opposed to the hedge funds that owned Chrysler debt. Whereas Obama could pressure these hedge funds to go along with his engineered restructuring, it'll be harder to force thousands of retirees and small-time investors to settle for 9 cents on the dollar with political pressure. They will have a legitimate gripe in court, and they aren't likely to fold and break apart the way Chrysler's holdouts did. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out, but I doubt that GM's bankruptcy will be as fast or seamless as Chrysler's has been.

5/28/2009 8:59:15 AM

The only thing unpatriotic here is what Obama's trying to do to GM shareholders.

5/28/2009 9:38:26 AM

hey, newsflash - shareholders for companies that are worthless don't deserve any money. That's part of the risk of buying a company.

5/28/2009 9:50:41 AM

Agreed. Owning shares of anything is a risk. But Obama shoving this through, to the benefit of the UAW, is pure crap.

5/28/2009 9:58:10 AM

Unionized Companies Punished in Bond Market

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Scores of companies are being punished in the bond market as the Obama administration's policies on General Motors and Chrysler LLC create new risks for creditors, a veteran bond strategist says.

As GM teeters toward a bankruptcy filing and Chrysler attempts to restructure in bankruptcy court, the Obama administration is offering most of the recovery value of those companies to "a favored political class, in this case the United Auto Workers, leaving creditors with very slender debt recoveries," Christopher Garman, founder of Garman Research in Orinda, California, said in a report released late on Friday.

To gauge whether those cases have made debtholders wary of other companies with so-called favored political classes, Garman compared spreads, or bonds' extra yields over U.S. Treasury yields, for companies with collective bargaining agreements with the high-yield bond market as a whole. While the two performed in line with each other since 2003, they diverged sharply in February, with spreads on companies with organized labor gapping nearly 11 percentage points higher than the market as a whole, according to Garman's research. The gap in spreads has persisted and was about 9 percentage points as of mid-May, Garman said. The gap appeared shortly after strategists reported signs that bondholder negotiations with GM were unraveling.

...For years in the past, "bondholders were more than happy to hold on to the debt of these companies," Garman said in an interview. "That's come to a pretty sharp end over the past six months."

Garman's findings echo warnings from other bondholders that unionized companies will have trouble attracting cash in the bond market if the bankruptcies of GM and Chrysler give creditors substantially smaller payouts than they traditionally received.
http://www.reuters.com/article/americasDealsNews/idUSTRE54P68K20090526?sp=true

5/28/2009 10:17:10 AM