look, if promoting the validity of atheism is the battle you choose to fight, then more power to you.


but it's my opinion that constantly berating your opposition is not the way to go about winning over an audience. i can't think of one person who has changed their religious views after brother gary in the brickyard called him a sinner or a fag. choosing to belittle someone by calling them stupid or uneducated is just as callous and presumptive, and does nothing to strengthen your role as an authoritative voice of reason


the energy spent on nullifying detractors would be better spent listening to their views and understanding their opinions rather than tearing them apart. how could you possibly expect to change someones opinion if your completely unwilling to reshape your own?

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 10:46 PM. Reason : ]

10/4/2009 10:41:30 PM

Quote :

"People get far too much leeway for maintaining an idiotic opinion. Sorry if that comes off as smug."

This is what I find so interesting. By your own admission, the belief in a god is as useless as hoping in your world view, yet you don't see it as idiotic to hope. If there is no god, then whether someone believes in hope, fate or god, the outcome is the same, so why is only the belief in god the action so deserving of ridicule?

Now I freely admit that many people do many stupid, harmful and destructive things in the name of their god, and many more invoke the name of a god while doing stupid, harmful and destructive things, but a belief in god is not a prerequisite to committing stupid, harmful and destructive acts, nor then is your problem with people who believe in god, but people who use that belief to justify harming their fellow man.

So what is it about a belief in god that is objectively worse than hoping for the best and positive thinking?

10/4/2009 11:17:14 PM

the problem with God's position is that he states that Christianity is the cause of the hate he mentioned and implies that if christians no longer existed they would not do those things yet offers no basis for his statement. the second part is why he justifies his zealousness, but it is not true. the people that want to spread hate and institutionalize their bigotry will do so regardless of the label they use to justify it. if it's not religion it will be something else.

10/4/2009 11:40:03 PM

Quote :

" Well, you can believe that the bible is unerring and must be taken literally without believing that you must live by the letter of the law as described in the old testament. The explanation for this is theological in nature and I won't get into it.."

There's more than enough whacky inconsistent theology in the new testament, if you want to ignore the old testament.

But you'll find that in reality, despite the technical nuances, MOST people who say they interpret the Bible literally are going to pick and choose, and when challenged, they'll fall back to the "faith" argument or say that God's will is too big for a human to comprehend. Then when questioned that their view lends itself to ambiguous interpretations to a supposedly literal, unerring bible, they'll say that god guides their interpretation, and then fall back to faith again. There's no way "out" for them if they aren't willing to think critically about their beliefs.

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/10/finding-the-fear-and-love-of-god-inside-the-brain.ars

Some people are just going to feel compelled to put mysticism where it doesn't belong, and these are the people the atheist/agnostics/non-extremist xtians are going to try and marginalize.

Quote :

"nor then is your problem with people who believe in god, but people who use that belief to justify harming their fellow man."

Yeah, i'm pretty sure this is what people have been trying to say. It should be pretty easy to understand why people naturally gravitate towards supernatural. For the average person, it's pretty terrifying and unnerving to think we're out here all alone. I can't castigate someone for believing in a god. Things get hairy when they take this belief to the point where they are willing to teach their kids bad science, or try to sway laws to fit their cult's viewpoint.

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 11:49 PM. Reason : ]

10/4/2009 11:46:53 PM

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 11:57 PM. Reason : nevermind, i may have misread your post]

10/4/2009 11:50:22 PM

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 1:07 AM. Reason : .]

10/5/2009 1:06:54 AM

I just wonder how much longer religion can survive in this internet age. Information flows too freely.

lol@this thread though. After days of Solinari spewing bullshit and diverting issues, he finally was able to quote d357r0y3r's generalized explanations in a contradictory way.

10/5/2009 6:12:54 AM

you haven't been paying much attention to this thread have you.

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 8:23 AM. Reason : s]

10/5/2009 8:22:09 AM

Nah, just read the first 4 or 5 pages. Did you answer win an argument with yourself on the 8th page or something?

10/5/2009 11:52:57 AM

yep, exactly.

10/5/2009 12:17:08 PM

Quote :

"Ok... I won't get into the theology, but I will give you a little thought experiment. Imagine that you are dealing with a world-wide religion with millions of followers throughout thousands of years. Now imagine that there is something as simple as you describe that discredits (OR WHATEVER) this religion. Do you really think there is no explanation for this problem? LOL YOU FUCKING MORON - or maybe you're just an opportunist and would rather not investigate the explanation?"

Nice personal attack. In all caps, too. That really strengthens your position. I'm the one that supposedly has the superiority complex, yet you're the one that constantly feels the need to berate others. I'll pretend that you aren't out of line, though.

Quote :

"Do you really think there is no explanation for this problem?"

If the problem is that people continue to believe something that is easily, demonstrably false, then I think there is an explanation for that. I haven't suggested that there isn't. Tradition, mysteries of the universe, the threat of hell, social pressure, and a general "warm and fuzzy" feeling is what keeps people believing. There are probably other reasons, too.

Quote :

"well there are many ways to interpret the bible. you've chosen a method of interpreting the bible that is completely incompatible with any recognizable form of christianity that has EVER existed.... So I guess that kind of demonstrates about how much you really understand the religion."

Is there a way to misinterpret the verse that says homosexuals should be put to death? Either God commanded that, or he didn't. You are still misunderstanding my position, and I know you won't bother to accept my clarification, but it's worth a shot anyway. I'm fully aware that Christians don't actually believe in or practice these disagreeable parts of the bible. Most Christians these days are very peaceful, and don't believe in the "bad" parts of the bible. I realize this. Most modern day Christians, at least the ones I have known, maintain the need for "salvation." That is, you must accept Jesus Christ in order to go to Heaven and not go to Hell. I mean, is this not what most Christians believe? I'm sure there are ones that don't, but Jesus himself allegedly said that the only way to the father was through him. If you don't believe that, and you don't believe in most of the old testament, why are you still calling yourself a Christian? At what point are you simply latching onto the tradition, and discarding the content in favor of newer, more reasonable morals?

Quote :

"There isn't a person on earth that could beat me in any sort of debate on religion"

To make it clear, I mean a debate on whether or not believing in religion is a logically valid belief. In other words, there is no one on earth that could make an argument for the existence of God or the validity of religion where I couldn't point out the flaw in their argument. I probably couldn't win a debate on which tribe of Israel was the best or something like that. But yeah, there isn't a person in the world that can make a sound argument for God/religion. Me saying that isn't indicative of a superiority complex, it's me being confident in my position. If someone could make a sound argument for God, I'm pretty sure someone would have discovered it by now, and I would be convinced.

Quote :

"Well, you can believe that the bible is unerring and must be taken literally without believing that you must live by the letter of the law as described in the old testament. The explanation for this is theological in nature and I won't get into it"

Okay, right. Most Christians I have known believe that no human can live up to the standards of God, no matter how hard they try. So, they may claim that the bible is the inerrant word of God, but they don't actually follow the laws because it isn't feasible to do so. But, if you are saying that God is the ultimate authority on what is right and wrong, and you believe the bible is the perfect physicial embodiment of that authority, and that bible says this crap that we know isn't moral...how is that not a problem? It's just not a consistent position to take.

Quote :

"I started to go through and trash a bunch of these posts, but I'll just say that I pretty much echo Solinari."

That's not something to be proud of. Maybe you should read over it again, because I've clearly stated that I realize the verses on slavery in the bible, and that kind of thing, are not actually part of Christianity in practice. I'm making the point that it's logically inconsistent to say that the bible is the inerrant word of God while not endorsing those verses. Do you disagree? Or is your overriding point that we should just live and let live, and no one criticizes anyone's belief, and everyone continue to be ignorant as they please? I have no desire to live in a society where we just accept absurdities as "business as usual."

Quote :

"i'd also be interested in finding out why so many people, after rejecting christianity, turned to atheism. did any of you dabble in other organized religions before taking the plunge? or was it straight to atheism? honest question, i'm really am interested in knowing"

If you understood why you would reject one religion, you'd realize why you would reject any religion. At least the ones that involve a god or gods, or any unsupported claim. It's not a simple matter of picking whichever religion makes more sense. None of them make any sense, unless you've been indoctrinated. So really, atheism is the default position. Everyone is born an atheist, until they're taught that there is a god. Atheism is not a belief system. It's not a religion. It's not another unwarranted belief among thousands of others that one simply has to hope is right. Atheism is the lack, or rejection, of a specific belief.

Quote :

"i guess my overarching principle is that religion can (and in my view, should) be viewed from an academic lens."

That would certainly hurt the longevity of religion.

Quote :

"I had basically the same internal conversation, except I didn't pretend to have examined all the available evidence. Instead, I recognized that there are a lot of people a hell of a lot smarter than me that have dedicated literally their entire lives to studying this issue and they have all come to differing conclusions. If smarter people than I can spend decades studying something and not reach a consensus, then I am not even about to start wasting my time on that crap... I've got a lot better things to do before I die!"

So basically, you're an atheist because you're intellectually lazy. I don't need to study anything to know that there isn't a reason to believe in God. What if I spent my entire life studying the prospects of there being an ancient race of tiny, invisible elephants in my closet. No one can disprove it, I mean...they're invisible. Even if you had a microscope, you wouldn't be able to see them, because they're invisible.

The reason smart and dumb people believe in religion is because intellect isn't what drives people to religion. No one converts to Christianity because it's the best available explanation for why we're here and where we came from. It's all based off of turning off rationality in the "religious" section of your brain and believing because you want to believe. I keep saying it, but compartmentalization is what this comes down to. It doesn't take years of research to render an argument valid or invalid.

Quote :

"yes, but you seem so god-damned sure that you're belief is right, that you cast aside the possibility new evidence emerging to prove the contrary "

Gonna need you to back up this statement.

Quote :

"you're equating all people who disagree with you with as being uneducated, backwoods, slack-jawed yokels. surely you can see how some would find this irritating."

Everyone has known intelligent Christians, so there aren't many atheists that would say all theists are stupid. You're setting up a strawman with this statement, unless someone else in the thread actually did make the argument that all Christians are uneducated etc.

Quote :

"Humility and quiet tolerance of people's personal beliefs is usually the best strategy"

And it still isn't. They stop being "personal beliefs" when they start to influence policy, and when an atheist can't be open about what they think and still get elected to public office. You want a society where no one challenges anyone's beliefs, no matter how stupid the belief is. That society would suck.

Quote :

"Because smug elitism and ridicule is surely the way to reconcile this issue!"

The average Christian will become frustrated when you simply ask them questions about their belief. Questioning it exposes the obvious absurdity of it. You're not supposed to ask questions. People interpret this as "elitism," but I don't see how it is.

Quote :

"look, if promoting the validity of atheism is the battle you choose to fight, then more power to you."

Atheism isn't a claim, so it can't be determined as valid or invalid.

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 12:50 PM. Reason : ]

10/5/2009 12:33:24 PM

Quote :

"the energy spent on nullifying detractors would be better spent listening to their views and understanding their opinions rather than tearing them apart. how could you possibly expect to change someones opinion if your completely unwilling to reshape your own"

I don't think my opinion needs reshaping, for one. If I did, I wouldn't try to convince others. The process of deconverting someone from Christianity, or any religion, is to question it. Once the seeds of doubt are planted, reason can take over. If believers actually applied critical thinking while following their religion, as you have suggested they should, the religion would quickly disappear.

Quote :

"the people that want to spread hate and institutionalize their bigotry will do so regardless of the label they use to justify it. if it's not religion it will be something else."

That's true. Eliminating religion will not eliminate the desire to do harm to other people. Not many people are suggesting that religion is the source of all the world's problems...just some of them.

Quote :

"he finally was able to quote d357r0y3r's generalized explanations in a contradictory way."

Not even. My clarification was more than enough to set the record straight.

Quote :

"you haven't been paying much attention to this thread have you. "

It's been me posting, and you responding with personal jabs. You've done nothing to refute any of the points I've made. You've spent about three pages trying to convince people that I hate my mom and have a superiority complex, yet it does nothing to discredit my position, even if those statements were true. You're like some sort of ad hominem argument master.

10/5/2009 12:37:00 PM

Quote :

"If you don't believe that, and you don't believe in most of the old testament, why are you still calling yourself a Christian?"

it's clear you don't have a very firm understanding of christianity. that's fine and it's certainly not necessary for your argument, but you don't want to get into a theological debate if this statement is indicative of your understanding.

10/5/2009 12:56:11 PM

Clearly you don't understand how he can completely write-off half of what his faith teaches and still claim it as legitimate.

10/5/2009 1:10:21 PM

I don't see the problem. Nowhere in the New Testament does it say the Old Testament doesn't matter. Otherwise, the Old Testament wouldn't still be part of the bible. You guys keep responding with "you don't understand Christianity," but you won't point out where I'm wrong. I don't think you understand Christianity and the bible nearly as well as I do, or you'd be engaging me in a debate on it.

Again, I'm fully aware that most Christians ignore huge sections of the OT. That isn't a biblical belief, it's one necessitated by society. The practical purpose of the New Testament, and Christianity in general, was to "update" the old law to (what were then) modern day sensibilities. They knew they couldn't just throw out the OT, though. They probably should have.

10/5/2009 1:11:56 PM

are you two claiming christians are ignoring the mosaic law because it doesn't fit life today? i just want to be clear.

10/5/2009 1:17:10 PM

Christians cherry-pick the written word of God to suit their lives.

10/5/2009 1:20:48 PM

^^Well, yeah. We've moved beyond those ancient laws as a society.

10/5/2009 1:28:27 PM

in hebrews jesus says pretty clearly that he is going to be establishing a new covenant to replace the old laws. i guess you can criticize jesus for "omg flip-flop" or "backpedal" but it's not cherry picking.

if you are criticizing christians for not being good examples of christ's teachings i'll agree with you

10/5/2009 1:28:32 PM

not worth geting into it... poojobs has this one covered

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 1:38 PM. Reason : s]

10/5/2009 1:34:26 PM

i mean i don't care that you don't believe in god and don't care that you think christians are idiots, but you both are pretty clearly missing one of the major points of christianity

10/5/2009 1:37:31 PM

not only one of the major points of christianity, in fact you could argue that they've completely misunderstood the entire premise of christianity

10/5/2009 1:39:02 PM

It happens even within the New Testament. Religion is perverted to meet the needs of people.

Pray for your kid. Afterwards, your kid lives. God willed it.

Pray for your kid. Afterwards, your kid dies. God willed it.

10/5/2009 1:40:04 PM

i mean you can make the argument that jesus had to change the rules to keep christianity relevant, you can talk about the timing of the new covenenant in relation to the fall of jerusalem and so on... but if you believe in the holy trinity, as christians do, then following christ's instructions is not cherry picking

^i don't think anyone is arguing with your point that people are fallible

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 1:50 PM. Reason : .]

10/5/2009 1:48:35 PM

^^ I think everyone agrees that Christians do regularly cherry pick. However, the fulfillment of OT law with Jesus' return does not usually get categorized as "cherry-picking" from the religion, because in fact, it IS what defines the religion.

The argument you guys are making would apply to Jews who are trying to avoid following OT law. Christians by the mere fact that they are Christians, do not have to follow OT law... Thats what distinguishes them from Jews (among a couple of other things)

To continue to argue this point makes you look like
1) a troll
2) an uneducated simpleton

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 1:55 PM. Reason : s]

10/5/2009 1:55:16 PM

Sounds fine to me.

Religion still needs to be eradicated.

10/5/2009 1:59:08 PM

Quote :

"in hebrews jesus says pretty clearly that he is going to be establishing a new covenant to replace the old laws. i guess you can criticize jesus for "omg flip-flop" or "backpedal" but it's not cherry picking."

If anything, that shows that the bible contradicts itself. I already knew that. It is absolutely cherry picking. Do you deny that Jesus validated the old law? Am I going to have to post the verse where he does, again? The Jesus character needed the old testament. Without it, there could have been no self-fulfilling prophecy. This is why there's no agreed upon interpretation of the bible. If you believed every word of the bible, well...that would be impossible, because there are contradictions. That's part of my point.

If you're right, and Jesus did replace the old laws, why do we still have the old laws? Why are the ten commandments still a core teaching in Christianity? How can you not see that cherry picking is required to interpret the bible in a meaningful way?

Quote :

"not worth geting into it... poojobs has this one covered"

Quote :

"not only one of the major points of christianity, in fact you could argue that they've completely misunderstood the entire premise of christianity"

Do you have anything left to contribute to this thread, or are you just going to keep going on and on about how I have misunderstood Christianity? You haven't demonstrated how I've misunderstood it. I guess I should just accept your evaluation on faith, despite the lack of supporting evidence. I desperately would like to know how, specifically, I am wrong.

Quote :

"i mean i don't care that you don't believe in god and don't care that you think christians are idiots, but you both are pretty clearly missing one of the major points of christianity"

I don't think that Christians are idiots. I even said that and clearly explained that a couple posts up. Please read my posts instead of going straight to the reply button. Don't intentionally put words in my mouth to make your points. And what "major point of Christianity" am I missing? The one that says certain points of the Old Testament don't count?

10/5/2009 2:01:45 PM

Just checking in -- you guys get this all worked out yet?

10/5/2009 2:10:54 PM

Quote :

" If you're right, and Jesus did replace the old laws, why do we still have the old laws? Why are the ten commandments still a core teaching in Christianity?"

the simple version: it makes an easy sunday school class to teach good morals to little kids. there's nothing particularly controversial about the 10 commandments, they are pretty similar to most people's sense of morality that is present even in the absence of any religion. as far as technically, most of those commandments are repeated in various forms in the new covenant.

Quote :

"Am I going to have to post the verse where he does, again? "

and i can post parts where jesus goes against the mosaic laws, i even already did. whats the point though, the bible has contradictions, but this is not one of them. christians believe that jesus is god, so to christians when jesus changes the rules there is no disagreement. jesus pretty clearly says that he is making a new covenant that is different for the rules he made before. he says that he is forgetting their sins and writing the rules on their heart by filling everyone with the holy spirit.

Quote :

"why do we still have the old laws? "

christians don't. jews don't believe in the trinity and do. (i guess, i'm not and only have a limited understanding of how they do things)

Quote :

"And what "major point of Christianity" am I missing? The one that says certain points of the Old Testament don't count?"

yeah, basically. its the whole "jesus died" part.

in summary the mosaic laws "don't count" because god said they don't

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 2:19 PM. Reason : .]

10/5/2009 2:18:32 PM

Quote :

"the simple version: it makes an easy sunday school class to teach good morals to little kids. there's nothing particularly controversial about the 10 commandments, they are pretty similar to most people's sense of morality that is present even in the absence of any religion. as far as technically, most of those commandments are repeated in various forms in the new covenant. "

So the ten commandments are still referred to, not because God thinks they're right, but because they're "good enough."

Quote :

"and i can post parts where jesus goes against the mosaic laws, i even already did. whats the point though, the bible has contradictions, but this is not one of them. christians believe that jesus is god, so to christians when jesus changes the rules there is no disagreement. jesus pretty clearly says that he is making a new covenant that is different for the rules he made before. he says that he is forgetting their sins and writing the rules on their heart by filling everyone with the holy spirit."

Quote :

"yeah, basically. its the whole "jesus died" part. in summary the mosaic laws "don't count" because god said they don't"

So God changes his mind. So much for objective morality. Was God right about killing homosexuals and slavery back when the old law was issued? Or were those things always wrong? Was that even God issuing the laws? Why didn't he just fill everyone with the "holy spirit" to begin with? How about the part of the bible that says god is "unchanging"? Guess we can throw that part out too, and just accept the parts that talk about peace and love.

10/5/2009 2:33:13 PM

the judicial laws? yeah we were told that we can throw those out, they were basically administrative rules for the state.

Quote :

"So the ten commandments are still referred to, not because God thinks they're right, but because they're "good enough.""

many of them are repeated in the new covenant (it may be all of them but i'll admit that i'm not sure)

Quote :

"How about the part of the bible that says god is "unchanging"?"

you can not reach the conclusion that because god changed the rules he is not immutable without showing that it was not his plan all along. you ready to tackle that one?

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 2:53 PM. Reason : punctuation]

10/5/2009 2:43:30 PM

I already pointed out that these kids can't conceptualize beyond "DURRRR SEE SPOT RUN THAT WHAT IT SAYS"

10/5/2009 2:54:05 PM

Newsflash, you are not going to convert someone on TWW. To or from Christianity. A wall of text cannot possibly compete with years and years of social interaction, teaching, indoctrination, and just plain ol' faith.

Yes, their beliefs are silly, but they are entitled to those beliefs. Just ignore them until they try to do something stupid like spend your tax dollars on religion. If they're the cool kind of Christians, they'll ignore you too and be content that they won't meet up with you in the afterlife.

10/5/2009 2:57:15 PM

If those laws were administrative, why are they in the bible?

Quote :

"you can not reach the conclusion that because god changed the rules he is not immutable without showing that it was not his plan all along? you ready to tackle that one?"

Let me clarify here. You say that I've made the conclusion that, because God has changed the rules, he is not unchanging. I stand by that conclusion. Are God's laws an accurate representation of what he thinks is right or wrong? If you're suggesting that his "plan" involved intentionally making immoral decrees, and then later issuing the real, moral laws...there's nothing left to discuss. Your god sucks, is a terrible deity, and should be hated by all that understand his true nature. You've deferred any argument I could make to "God's plan." I'm guessing you would make the argument that I couldn't understand God's plan, so there's no point in even trying.

Quote :

"I already pointed out that these kids can't conceptualize beyond "DURRRR SEE SPOT RUN THAT WHAT IT SAYS""

You should think about taking the trolling to chit chat.

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 2:59 PM. Reason : ]

10/5/2009 2:57:54 PM

Quote :

"If those laws were administrative, why are they in the bible?"

the bible has all kinds of things in it; genealogies, rules, narratives, parables, history... it's not simply a listing of things to do.

Quote :

"I'm guessing you would make the argument that I couldn't understand God's plan, so there's no point in even trying."

the thing about opening the door to a theologically based debate is that this becomes a valid response, god tells us that we can't understand his plan.

i'm not sure yet if you are just too proud or self-righteous to admit that you got majorly pwnt on a central issue of christianity or if you still can't see your mistake. i tried to tell you not to open the door to a theological debate, from your position there is really no reason to. you may have gone to sunday school but i don't think it equipped you with a particularly strong understanding of things.

i'm not trying to convince you that christianity is true or that there is a god, frankly i don't care and its not my responsibility or place, but your post that started this string was patently wrong.

God had the foresight to clarify his position, you probably should have followed his lead

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 3:18 PM. Reason : .]

10/5/2009 3:01:07 PM

Jesus Christ, Solinari is getting out of hand.

I decided to read the entire thread. I think I can summarize his points. He gives atheists a bad name.

1. You shouldn't have told your parents because it would be wrong to antagonize someone that disagrees with you.

2. You are an idiot.

3. You think that Christians are idiots and from that he infers that you think your parents are idiots.

4. Atheists are just as crazy as Chrisitans.

5. You aren't mature enough to come to any conclusions, yet.

6. You are an idiot.

7. You are trying to change my beliefs, which is wrong.

8. You are wrong.

9. Faith doesn't need defending.

10. You can't use the Bible to defend or attack Christianity.

11. All of these points have been argued before and aren't worth repeating.

12. I am much older than you am allowed to come to conclusions.

13. Atheists should stay out of religious discussion because they don't promise eternal life.

14. Christians would "admit they were wrong if presented with incontrovertible proof that god doesn't exist."

15. You told your parents what you believed, to hurt your mother, and that is wrong.

16. I told my parents my beliefs and pussyfoot around the subject much like most of my posts in this thread.

17. Telling your mother that you don't believe in God is analogous to describing your gay, sexual escapades.

18. You are an idiot.

19. You are an idiot.

20. It is wrong to be judgmental.

21. You are an idiot.

22. You ridiculed your mother for her beliefs, which is wrong... you idiot.

23. You are a "contemptuous brat."

24. The issue is faith. Hope, or faith, is unfounded.

25. It is wrong to oversimplify someones beliefs in an attempt to discredit them.

26. You don't understand the bible as well as I do.

27. There is no reason to attack Christianity based on misunderstanding of the faith.

28. I am a smart atheist and you are not.

29. Take my word that you don't understand Christianity as well as I do.

30. You are an idiot.

31. I shouldn't get involved in this debate because I think it would be better to have others do it for me.

32. I am a stickler for accuracy. Inaccuracies deserve attention.

33. You are an idiot.

34. There are many ways to interpret the bible. Your interpretations are wrong.

35. You are an idiot.

36. You went to church for years, but that doesn't mean you are as knowledgeable on the subject as religious scholars.

37. Pointing out errors in the bible is easy, but worthless.

38. You are an idiot.

39. You can believe me, investigate this yourself, or continue to be uneducated.

40. Cherry picking the OT is the cornerstone of the divergence of Christianity and Judaism.

41. Using verses in discussion is cherry picking.

42. When I was younger, I became atheist because I had no way of objectively legitimatizing it. The same applies to all religion.

43. I didn't try to examine evidence of religion, because I put faith in the fact that more intelligent people than myself cannot come to a consensus. Therefore, I will live my life in ignorance.

44. You are an idiot.

45. It doesn't matter what you believe because you will die.

46. Ridicule and elitism are not the way to approach issues.

47. I'm not going to defend my position because someone with a deeper understanding is better suited.

48. You don't understand Christianity as well as I do.

49. You are a troll... or an idiot.

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 3:16 PM. Reason : ]

10/5/2009 3:12:54 PM

Quote :

"the bible has all kinds of things in it; genealogies, rules, narratives, parables, history... it's not simply a listing of things to do."

It isn't the word of God, then. It's written by men...which I'm pretty sure we both agree on. You seem to still think it has some sort of divine authority, though. I don't think it meets the criteria for that.

Quote :

"the thing about opening the door to a theologically based debate is that this becomes a valid response, god tells us that we can't understand his plan."

So once it becomes a "theologically based debate," all concepts of reason and logic are thrown out. I was already aware of that. Theology is all about studying/arguing crap that has no basis in reality. If we can't understand his plan, then there's no point in trying to interpret anything in the bible, because it could have been his plan to completely throw us for a loop.

Quote :

"i'm not sure yet if you are just too proud or self-righteous to admit that you got majorly pwnt on a central issue of christianity or if you still can't see your mistake. i tried to tell you not to open the door to a theological debate, from your position there is really no reason to. you may have gone to sunday school but i don't think it equipped you with a particularly strong understanding of things. "

I didn't get pwnt. If anything, you did. Once you were backed into a corner, you made the argument from "God's plan." There could be a verse straight from Jesus' mouth that said "kill everyone you see no matter what," and you could explain it away by invoking "God's plan." You haven't exposed any mistake. You're back to the "you just misunderstand Christianity" argument, and it's still ineffective.

Quote :

"i'm not trying to convince you that christianity is true or that there is a god, frankly i don't care and its not my responsibility or place, but your post that started this string was patently wrong."

It wasn't wrong, and it calls upon Christians in the New Testament to defend their faith and evangelize. Do you believe I'm going to hell? If so, are you okay with that, or do you want to convince me otherwise so I don't go?

10/5/2009 3:28:30 PM

Shellfish are tasty.

10/5/2009 3:41:16 PM

Quote :

"It isn't the word of God, then. It's written by men...which I'm pretty sure we both agree on. You seem to still think it has some sort of divine authority, though. I don't think it meets the criteria for that."

the authority comes from the holy spirit inside of you, the book itself is written and assembled by man. it is something to be read while using your reason to understand.

Quote :

"If we can't understand his plan, then there's no point in trying to interpret anything in the bible, because it could have been his plan to completely throw us for a loop."

here's where it gets even crazier; salvation is not based on actions so you could say that its pointless to try to understand anything.

Quote :

"I didn't get pwnt. If anything, you did. Once you were backed into a corner, you made the argument from "God's plan." There could be a verse straight from Jesus' mouth that said "kill everyone you see no matter what," and you could explain it away by invoking "God's plan." You haven't exposed any mistake. You're back to the "you just misunderstand Christianity" argument, and it's still ineffective. "

you did, you said that christians do not follow the mosaic law because it doesn't fit their life. this is wrong and i pointed it out... pwnt.

Quote :

"It wasn't wrong, and it calls upon Christians in the New Testament to defend their faith and evangelize. Do you believe I'm going to hell? If so, are you okay with that, or do you want to convince me otherwise so I don't go?"

actually there is no call to evangelize or guide on how to do it. the new testament says that the holy spirit will turn people's hearts, it is not any persons responsibility to convert people. basically people are "contagious" with the holy spirit and should try to live a loving life, but there is no instruction to go to the brickyard and ask people if they have accepted jesus christ as their lord and savior.

Quote :

"Do you believe I'm going to hell? "

if the presbyterian church is right, i can't even know if i am. but im hardly an expert when it comes to the concept of predetermination, i'm still trying to get through the westminster confession of faith

10/5/2009 3:43:03 PM

Quote :

"the authority comes from the holy spirit inside of you, the book itself is written and assembled by man. it is something to be read while using your reason to understand."

Except it defies reason in so many ways. If all you need to live a God-honoring life is the holy spirit which resides within you, the bible is as useless as I've said it is. The bible is the basis for saying that the holy spirit is real. More circular logic.

Quote :

"here's where it gets even crazier; salvation is not based on actions so you could say that its pointless to try to understand anything."

Saying that would be pretty dumb, though.

Quote :

"you did, you said that christians do not follow the mosaic law because it doesn't fit their life. this is wrong and i pointed it out... pwnt."

It's not wrong. Christians maintain that Jesus "died" (which, for some reason, is considered a sacrifice, even though it's just God in human form and he knew it was going to happen, and for some reason, allows humans a way to get to heaven), saving them from their sins. That doesn't invalidate the old testament. It doesn't mean that nothing in the Old Testament is true. It means that they can ignore the laws and still go to heaven - but they're still sins. This whole idea that Jesus totally wiped away the old law is not biblical. The reason that Christians try to say he did is because, like I said - society no longer views those old laws as acceptable. Jesus never came out and said "oh, yeah, those old laws weren't right...but the new ones are." There's a reason the OT is still part of the bible - because Christians have understood that it's part of the scripture, and it can't be removed or destroyed. Jesus says that in the bible.

Quote :

"actually there is no call to evangelize or guide on how to do it. the new testament says that the holy spirit will turn people's hearts, it is not any persons responsibility to convert people. basically people are "contagious" with the holy spirit and should try to live a loving life, but there is no instruction to go to the brickyard and ask people if they have accepted jesus christ as their lord and savior."

The bible calls upon Christians to evangelize in many places.

"And He said unto them, 'Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.'" Mark 16:15.

I'm not even sure why you would try to argue that point. Spreading the gospel is an accepted part of Christianity, unless you're just throwing out those verses too. I wouldn't be surprised.

Quote :

"if the presbyterian church is right, i can't even know if i am. but im hardly an expert when it comes to the concept of predetermination, i'm still trying to get through the westminster confession of faith"

Do you think I deserve to go to hell, though? Does anyone deserve to go to hell? Does anyone deserve infinite punishment for finite crimes? If your church says that it does, I think you should denounce its teachings.

10/5/2009 4:23:11 PM

Quote :

" "And He said unto them, 'Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.'" Mark 16:15. "

making people aware =/= converting

Quote :

"It's not wrong."

dude, you were wrong. god changed the rules. the rest of your response is for a different point.

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 4:29 PM. Reason : .]

10/5/2009 4:26:17 PM

Quote :

""here's where it gets even crazier; salvation is not based on actions so you could say that its pointless to try to understand anything.""

This is fun!

Matthew 5:20
Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Matthew 19:17
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 25:41-46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Luke 10:26-28
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Romans 2:6, 13
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
Philippians 2:12
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:17
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:21-25
Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.
Revelation 2:23
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.

I couldn't resist.

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 4:28 PM. Reason : .]

10/5/2009 4:27:03 PM

^^^ lol... I guess you're just one of those types that can't admit he's wrong.

It's kind of like if I cracked open a physics text and excerpted paragraphs describing physical phenomena, such as Ohm's Law or the boiling point of water and then went around declaring physics to be false because of superconducters and altitude.... Or better yet, when someone pointed out the context of the quoted laws, I declare physics to be contradictory and therefore unworthy of belief. After all, it says in one chapter the boiling point of water is xx, but in this section, it says it is yy.

This is getting tiresome, though... We've extended this discussion into the usual TWW bicker-fest wherein the incorrect party is reduced to weaker and more minute nitpicks in order to maintain the pretense of argument

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 4:33 PM. Reason : s]

10/5/2009 4:28:18 PM

This entire discussion can be compared to Fox News versus the Obama Administration; where nothing Obama says or does is right, and the only shred of wisdom that Fox News can provide to the discussion is simply "you are wrong" and "No."

10/5/2009 4:44:32 PM

psst, d357r0y3r:

Quote :

"2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ."

It does say many times in the New Testament that they're doing away with the old laws and this is a pretty key belief the Christians have as opposed to Judaism. That and the messiah thing.

10/5/2009 4:51:46 PM

his point, that he finally arrived at probably after seeing his glaring mistake, is that while the laws were set aside they are still sins but the laws he has problems with were only for a certain people at a certain time and never applied to anyone else. it has never been against the law for me to let my cattle graze with other kinds of cattle.

10/5/2009 4:56:27 PM

when jesus was crucified the giant curtain that separated the temple attendees from the "inner sanctum" or something like that was torn in half.. That curtain had been MANDATED in the old testament.... Hmmm... seems like a pretty symbolic gesture on god's part to go out of his way to destroy something that had been mandated by the law at the very moment when Jesus died and thereby fulfilled the law, ushering in the "new law" of the new testament.

But lets ignore all that and focus like a laser on excerpts which make us feel comfortable about our beliefs!!

10/5/2009 4:57:28 PM

To whom are you responding?

10/5/2009 4:59:37 PM

to anyone who makes the ridiculous claim that Christianity requires its adherants to follow OT law

10/5/2009 5:03:08 PM

^the dude just quoted

"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 25:41-46"

the commandments aren't OT law?

[Edited on October 5, 2009 at 5:04 PM. Reason : ]

10/5/2009 5:04:30 PM