^^ so trump can call Mexicans rapist, tell his supporters to punch peaceful protestors, lie about secret evidence about Obama's birth certificate, lie about his failed businesses, make deals with gang members, retweet white supremacist propaganda, get people to do hitler salutes, but Obama can't even have a beer with someone?

Trump isn't going to surmount his 70% unfavorable rating, so this is moot anyway, but trump supporters should just admit they are voting for trump because he'll stick it to blacks and/or Mexicans.

3/21/2016 12:33:06 AM

You act like lying is something new to politics.

Yet you still fail to admit to at least some of Hillary's lies. I mean really, what kind of hypocritical world do you live in where Hillary is a viable candidate and Trump isn't? Those two are equally horrible people.



[Edited on March 21, 2016 at 7:38 AM. Reason : asdsa]

3/21/2016 7:31:31 AM

Nope. Not equal.

Both suck though.

3/21/2016 9:05:46 AM

You're right. Donald Trump has never had anyone murdered.

The list of the Clintons' lies and cover-ups are older than you are. If you honestly think the two candidates are different in terms of how bad they are, then you're just lying to yourself.

I would seriously vote for Biden over Trump at this point.

3/21/2016 9:13:21 AM

I hate myself for even tacitly defending her but Trumps lies are currently inciting a group of people who have otherwise been on the fringes of society for decades. It's scary to me. Far scarier than the documented flips and lies by Hillary.

But if you can believe that they have had dozens of people systematically killed to gain power (like my mother-in-law does) you will believe anything.

3/21/2016 9:21:52 AM

Dozens? No that is silly. One person back in the 80's? Totally plausible. They're definitely power hungry, and I could see them as willing to do whatever it takes.

And know know what's also silly? You thinking that there's a hoard of racists just waiting to rise up for the right candidate. If these "fringe" groups were going to do anything, they would have done it when we received our first black president.

No, what you're seeing is a few people at his rallies who the media has latched onto. Either your are being purposefully obtuse and trying to apply these situations to larger groups, or you're just naive.

3/21/2016 9:30:16 AM

why is one person reasonable but all the other rumors silly?

3/21/2016 9:34:19 AM

The Obama presidency has seen the most toxic vitriol towards the office I have seen in my lifetime for sure. FFS, after eight years we still have a sizeable contingent of people who don't believe he was born in America. Just this summer I drove past a huge 40 foot banner in fucking Apex that read, "Wake up sheep, Obama is a Kenyan Muslim."

These people have made an appearance and Trump is haphazardly trying to stoke even more fear and anger.

[Edited on March 21, 2016 at 9:36 AM. Reason : And Obama is barely even liberal at all]

3/21/2016 9:35:05 AM

I see rjrumfel is still gagging on that partisan pole

Quote :

"If these "fringe" groups were going to do anything, they would have done it when we received our first black president. "

Where the fuck were you in 2008 and 2009???

3/21/2016 9:58:53 AM

WTF is partisan about any of this? Seriously. Trump is not a Republican. The allegations that people are making about Trump is nothing like Obama's opposition in 2008/2009. They claim Trump is going to lead in what would effectively be the new National Socialist American Workers Party. Which is just retarded.

For those of you who don't understand sarcasm, that was a throwback to the Nazi party.

I'm only defending Trump in the context that he's worse that Hillary. I will not vote for the man, so don't take this defense as support.

3/21/2016 10:09:21 AM

Quote :

"WTF is partisan about any of this?"

Lettuce see...The Clintons murdered people for power, and it's the media's fault that racism and xenophobia are associated with Trump's campaign. Yup. Nothing partisan to see here folks. Move along please.

3/21/2016 10:18:49 AM

just because you aren't a fan of someone doesn't mean you are then able to say that someone is as bad as another person who worse in nearly every way

because in reality, they aren't comparable in almost any way

you might as well go ahead and throw out a Benghazi or two while you're on such a roll

Quote :

"WTF is partisan about any of this? Seriously. Trump is not a Republican. The allegations that people are making about Trump is nothing like Obama's opposition in 2008/2009. They claim Trump is going to lead in what would effectively be the new National Socialist American Workers Party. Which is just retarded."

and that'll be the dumbest thing I'll see all week. congrats.

[Edited on March 21, 2016 at 10:53 AM. Reason : .]

3/21/2016 10:48:40 AM

Quote :

"I hate myself for even tacitly defending her but Trumps lies are currently inciting a group of people who have otherwise been on the fringes of society for decades. It's scary to me. Far scarier than the documented flips and lies by Hillary. "

The problem with Trump's lies is that when you call Trump on it, he pretends he never said it, or just dismisses it, and then moves on. He makes no acknowledgement that he's saying something the exact opposite of what he literally just said (in some cases a few minutes prior), and his interviewers just move on like nothing happened.

No one els lies on a continuous basis like Trump either, or in the bizarre ways he lies. Trump lies about small things (his failed magazine) and big things (secret evidence obama is muslim, secret plan to defeat isis, secret list of super negotiators, etc). He lies about things he retweeted, he completely makes up information about how much support he has, and he never gets pressed on it. If the media calls him out, he'll just keep repeating his lie for that interview, and the interviewer moves on. In reality, if Trump can't face or acknowledge what he just said, this should end an interview-- it would in most cases, but for Trump, it doesn't.

3/21/2016 12:46:42 PM

Lol at the Fox News segment just now. They called a campaign strategist of Trumps a Muslim. Trump didn't dispute it. Then they corrected themselves and said he wasn't.

Trumps grand plan was "something is going on. We will not allow anyone in until we figure it out."

Vague and mindless as ever but he could shit in a bowl and his supporters would rush to eat it up.

3/22/2016 7:46:31 AM

You seem to watch Fox News a lot. Are you a closet conservative? Because you watch/listen to it much more than I do.

3/22/2016 9:29:29 AM

Do I?

It was on a work TV downstairs when I was hearing my coffee up.

I watch Fox News as much as I watch MSNBC. Maybe once every six months. I legit can't remember the last time I had it on at home.

And I AM a moderate with some conservative views (though admittedly more liberal over time). Not my fault the Republican Party went away from conservative policy years ago.

3/22/2016 9:51:08 AM

I listened to Glenn Beck for 15 minutes this morning, mostly because I like to start my day with laughter.

[Edited on March 22, 2016 at 10:07 AM. Reason : btw that guy is on suicide watch right?]

3/22/2016 10:06:42 AM

^^Let's have a PM conversation as to not clutter up this thread. If you don't mind, tell me how you are conservative. Don't read any emotion into that, it is just a question, no sarcasm or anything. Because believe it or not, I'm a little left of center on some things.

^I too listen to Beck for a few minutes each morning. I'm convinced that he isn't a serious person. He can't be. He's just jerking his audience around and seeing how far he can take them. That is the only reasonable explanation.

[Edited on March 22, 2016 at 10:22 AM. Reason : ada]

3/22/2016 10:21:57 AM

please have that conversation here because i have no idea how someone becomes "moderate" and would like to gain more insight. How does a "conservative" become "liberal" on "some" issues? I get it for politicians. They are trying to play both sides of the fence and maximize thier support but I don't see how a person can have conflicting ideology.

3/22/2016 10:31:01 AM

People's views change all the time. Over the years, I've become increasingly more liberal on some stances (essentially most things having to do with social issues like abortion, drug abuse, immigration, health care, education, etc) while a few of my conservative views haven't changed much (i lean pro-death penalty, for instance, and I'm not a fan of our tax structure either).

The problem with a two party system is that centrist people often have to choose an approximation of their beliefs.

3/22/2016 10:41:40 AM

I suppose the better way to say it is that I have no one party (rather than ideology) that represents the spectrum of my political views.

3/22/2016 10:42:46 AM

to me it seems the president is always a centrist in the two party system. The true liberals and true conservatives rarely win the nomination and as a liberal, i'd rather have a straight shooting conservative president, than a moderate neocon like hillary who lies about liberal beliefs to get elected.


What did you learn or experience that caused you to become liberal on abortion healthcare and education?

[Edited on March 22, 2016 at 10:55 AM. Reason : did you just wake up one day and say, you know what, education is a good thing]

3/22/2016 10:53:29 AM

are you seriously arguing that people cannot change their stances on issues?

3/22/2016 10:59:37 AM

No I'm not. Education certainly changes your stance on issues. I would argue that a well informed person cannot change their stance without a major experience and I think it would be cool to hear about those types of experiences.

but other than that

you don't just change your views.

3/22/2016 11:05:03 AM

Quote :

"How does a "conservative" become "liberal" on "some" issues? I get it for politicians. They are trying to play both sides of the fence and maximize thier support but I don't see how a person can have conflicting ideology."

This is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever seen you say. And dangerous. If you only see things in black and white, where there is no grey area, then there's no hope for you.

And I wouldn't necessarily say my views have changed much, I've pretty much always held the same general viewpoints. Its just that not all my views are right leaning. I'm fairly progressive on environmental issues, and when it comes to social issues, I'm progressive in that I just don't really care. If two men want to marry, let them, it is their right. The only social issues I'm totally against is the whole transgender debacle. As I told Nym, I think it is ridiculous that we as a country are considering enacting laws for a group of mentally unstable people, when we should be helping their disease, not enabling it. But I digress.

We shouldn't be put in left or right categories, because I bet you'll find very few people who think all leftist or right leaning points of view. For most normal people I would expect a mix.

And certainly views can change. If a anti-gay marriage parent ends up having a child that is gay, I bet 7 times out of 10 their viewpoint will change.

3/22/2016 11:27:55 AM

uh, life EXPERIENCE often changes people's views/stances...

some people "find God" and becoming super Christian overnight. Others have experiences that cause them to rethink their faith and political views.

3/22/2016 11:30:06 AM

Quote :

"This is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever seen you say. And dangerous. If you only see things in black and white, where there is no grey area, then there's no hope for you."

Where did I say there is no grey area? Please tell me how asking people to explain their views is dangerous. Thats really the only way to understand people who have different perspective. I don't get why people are so afraid of explaining what they believe in.

Quote :

"If a anti-gay marriage parent ends up having a child that is gay, I bet 7 times out of 10 their viewpoint will change"

Thats an experience and the person should be able to share it. being anti gay is different from never having a gay person close to you to truly understand the issue . A parent that was truly anti gay and well informed wouldn't change that stance just because their child is gay.

Quote :

"uh, life EXPERIENCE often changes people's views/stances... some people "find God" and becoming super Christian overnight. Others have experiences that cause them to rethink their faith and political views."

And you should be able to articulate these experiences. Thats all I'm saying. Experiences are really just a better form of education and if education changes your views, it really just means they weren't your views to begin with but that you were uninformed or misinformed.



[Edited on March 22, 2016 at 11:39 AM. Reason : k]

3/22/2016 11:33:05 AM

Well, you said you didn't understand how people change.

That's how some people can change.

3/22/2016 11:36:23 AM

ok, this weak troll attempt is just that: weak.

[Edited on March 22, 2016 at 11:36 AM. Reason : .]

3/22/2016 11:36:24 AM

asking you to explain your views on a message board is actually the point of a message board. Its literally the furthest thing from trolling.

And no there is not one answer for why every single person has changed their views so they all need to explain themselves individually.

3/22/2016 11:41:29 AM

it's a retarded fucking premise in the first place:

people don't change their views.

uh, yeah they do. all the time actually.

when??? unless you've had a life experience, your views don't change!

uh, yeah that's what makes people change their views...

but HOW? I want to LEARN

3/22/2016 11:50:24 AM

thats all fine and dandy except i never said people don't change their views

3/22/2016 11:54:12 AM

Quote :

"you don't just change your views."

3/22/2016 11:55:43 AM

are you serious? did you really just take the last phrase from a post that talked about how views can change and quote it out of context? do you also not understand the "just" in that?

do you need to change your views on trolling or are you just bad at reading?

3/22/2016 12:09:22 PM

I don't understand how I'm trolling here. I was trying to show how some people can change their views...it took his statement as disbelief rather than an actual question. If it was an actual question, them my apologies.

3/22/2016 12:10:19 PM

You're fine. I just want to know more about each person on a case by case basis for why they swithced their views. I'm sure what you stated applies to many people, but the majority of people who switched their views on gay marriage, didn't have a gay child. So there are a lot more stories out there.

Also, I want to know more about people who have an experience like that change one of their extreme views, but don't allow it to open their mind up to the possibility that their other views are also based on lack of information or experience.

Its ujustwait who seems to be trolling.

3/22/2016 12:59:22 PM

I'm not trolling at all

Several people in this thread stated their political views have changed over the years and you made some dumb comment about how the POTUS is the only real person who's views changed because of being a "centrist" and insinuated that only uninformed/misinformed people ever change their political views, which is fucking stupid.

It's not difficult to imagine why people change their political stances if you think critically and it certainly doesn't require multiple personal anecdotes.

3/22/2016 1:22:24 PM

but i've already stated why people change their views in the same post you selectively misquoted.

thats why i'm accusing you of trolling. you have disregarded most of what i said in order to keep building strawmans out of misquoted phrases even after i clarify it.

the president has to compromise and work with congress. individuals do not and theres no need to use political discretion to withold your specific views or reasoning behind those views on tww

Quote :

"uninformed/misinformed people ever change their political views, which is fucking stupid. "

actually its not. the only example stated thus far was about parents who didn't understand the gay experience until they had a gay child. that means they were uninformed/misinformed before they had the experience

[Edited on March 22, 2016 at 1:33 PM. Reason : k]

3/22/2016 1:25:40 PM

you went back and edited your posts to include "experience", which is a pretty basic reason why people's views change. by my count, four different posters were confused by your initial framing of the question, so quitting acting so surprised.

and holy fuck, are you serious?

i can easily rattle off several reasons why people would change their stances on abortion, gun control, the death penalty, gay marriage, etc. all you would need to do is get pregnant, be robbed at gun point, have a family member murdered, have a gay friend who wants to get married, etc. you are deliberately being obtuse at this point.

[Edited on March 22, 2016 at 1:36 PM. Reason : smdh]

3/22/2016 1:34:07 PM

3/22/2016 1:51:03 PM

I think maybe what you're looking for is someone who has changed their views without personally being touched by whatever viewpoint is being changed. And without being a politician, I could only assume those folks change their viewpoints based on their education and research about issues.

Or they get/lose religion.

3/22/2016 1:51:14 PM

no, only the president can change their personal views to pander for votes. earl says so.

3/22/2016 2:05:27 PM

earl's point is pretty clear if you take a step back and stop getting angry at him for no reason

its rare that someone changes a deeply held belief without some kind of meaningful exerience. either their own experience or a retelling of someone else's

he just said he was curious to hear about specific experiences that changed peoples minds.

[Edited on March 22, 2016 at 3:28 PM. Reason : .]

3/22/2016 3:25:53 PM

Changes in my views that aren't directly related to major life events:
1) I used to believe in term limits for Congress members. Over the years I've thought about the problem of money in our political system and come to the (current) conclusion that term limits would only exacerbate that problem, rendering the big donors and party structures even more powerful.

2) Long ago, I thought that a flat tax was a good idea (it's been a pretty long time). I grew up and learned how regressive that would likely be in action. I no longer think that's a good idea.

3) Before I learned more about it, I was far more inclined to be in favor of "neighborhood schools", but I've learned how much of a smokescreen that is for re-segregation (both by race and class). And I've also learned that the current bout of segregation we're going through is likely going to be even more pernicious than what we had prior to the 1970s because it's not just race-based. At least then, there were relatively high-achieving students/parents/teachers at the all-black schools, now it will be mostly minority and poor. And no good teachers would want to spend much time there because of all the challenges that involves.

I'm sure there are more, but those are what come to mind.

3/22/2016 3:38:35 PM

Considering language is the sole way we can get information into and out of our brains on the Internet, it's stupid to thing that people can't change their minds based on things they experience online.

3/22/2016 3:46:24 PM

those were deeply held?

3/22/2016 3:46:30 PM

I don't know. What does that really even mean? Something that one feels as a moral good? A single-issue litmus test for politicians I might vote for? Please elaborate.

One deeply-held belief that has changed in me is that on the death penalty. I used to have some instances where I thought it was appropriate, but seeing how warped our judicial system is against the poor and minorities, I no longer think there is any instance in which I'd accept the death penalty.

There are other arguments against the death penalty that I've always more or less held (eg, I don't care what the families of victims feel about the punishment of the convicted. There is a reason why they're not on the jury. There's also the studies that show that the death penalty isn't really much of a deterrent and the process is very expensive and wasteful).

3/22/2016 4:08:30 PM

Quote :

"earl's point is pretty clear if you take a step back and stop getting angry at him for no reason "

it certainly wasn't clear in the three posts he went back and edited

3/22/2016 5:23:06 PM

Quote :

"as far more inclined to be in favor of "neighborhood schools", but I've learned how much of a smokescreen that is for re-segregation (b"

Give me a fucking break. Let's bus little Sally an extra 20 mins so she can have black people in her school and let's bus a handful of African American students to the rich suburbs school so we can feel like social justice Warriors that 5% of the inner city kids go to the " good schools too" and let's waste $millions in busses and fuel doing this.

In reality if we made sure the school budgets were made fairly and kept racist councilman from stacking the suburban schools then we'd all win.

3/22/2016 8:43:27 PM

^ let's put an end to people being mean while we're at it!

3/22/2016 10:10:51 PM