Any interest in a late night game downtown?

7/7/2006 10:33:37 PM

$30 tourney.

Lost a 50-50 for 2/3 my stack right before break. Then this just after the break.

Getting Hand History Information...
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #33258127-76 at Fri1001pm-031 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 07/Jul/06 23:12:04

SkullDragon is at seat 1 with 1025.
CARDDEVIL is at seat 2 with 1850.
stu pidazo is at seat 3 with 3760.
mebettin is at seat 4 with 4065.
gotham is at seat 5 with 2470.
RVoegele is at seat 6 with 1250.
mgpchef is at seat 7 with 2415.
GMA is at seat 8 with 2005.
Bobv1017 is at seat 9 with 2660.
The button is at seat 4.

gotham posts the small blind of 50.
RVoegele posts the big blind of 100.

SkullDragon: -- --
CARDDEVIL: -- --
stu pidazo: -- --
mebettin: -- --
gotham: -- --
RVoegele: Ad 4c
mgpchef: -- --
GMA: -- --
Bobv1017: -- --

Pre-flop:

mgpchef folds. GMA folds. Bobv1017 folds.
SkullDragon folds. CARDDEVIL calls. stu pidazo
folds. mebettin folds. gotham calls. RVoegele
checks.

Flop (board: 9c Js As):

gotham bets 300. RVoegele goes all-in for 1150.
CARDDEVIL calls. gotham folds.

Tournament all-in showdown -- players show:

CARDDEVIL shows 3s Ks.
RVoegele shows Ad 4c.


Turn (board: 9c Js As 8d):

(no action in this round)


River (board: 9c Js As 8d 8s):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

CARDDEVIL has 3s Ks Js As 8s: flush, ace high.
RVoegele has Ad Js As 8d 8s: two pair, aces and eights.


Hand #33258127-76 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
CARDDEVIL wins 2900 with flush, ace high.
----------------------------------------------------------------

just fucking awful.

7/7/2006 11:15:50 PM

not to be a dick but you have to factor this in:

1. it wasnt that bad of a beat
2. it was a bad move on your part
3. it was online with idiots
4. the lower you play for the more idiots

suck it up and learn from it

it was possible you were dominated by the original raiser, so the all in call probably helped you

7/7/2006 11:31:00 PM

^ Exactly what I was going to say. It was just a flush draw call. People online call with flush draws all the time. Not only that but the blinds were only 50/100... you had plenty of time to look for a better spot. In that spot next time, at least try to see another card that doesn't complete the draw and then consider pushing in if you don't put him on an Ace.

7/8/2006 12:41:16 PM

i won a 1$ buy in 800 player tournament yesterday
and a 10 dollar sit and go

7/8/2006 1:17:56 PM

gg

7/8/2006 2:18:05 PM

yeah it paid really well

and i was on the low end of a 1:4 chip advantage when it came down to heads up
but i kept getting pocket pairs and he though surely i was bluffing but nope....

7/8/2006 2:34:25 PM

ugh

PokerStars Game #5497972066: Tournament #27781809, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/07/08 - 22:19:52 (ET)
Table '27781809 20' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: BIGMAVERICK (7350 in chips)
Seat 2: Ninjahedge (2265 in chips)
Seat 4: Habs2926 (3610 in chips)
Seat 5: farvendor (1430 in chips)
Seat 7: rtsmith (2215 in chips)
Seat 9: remowilliams (3515 in chips)
BIGMAVERICK: posts small blind 25
Ninjahedge: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to rtsmith [Qs Qd]
Habs2926: calls 50
farvendor: folds
DonnieSTL is connected
iubballref is connected
rtsmith: raises 150 to 200
remowilliams: folds
BIGMAVERICK: raises 2200 to 2400
Ninjahedge: folds
Habs2926: folds
rtsmith said, "ok"
rtsmith: calls 2015 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [3c 6s 6c]
rtsmith said, "what the fuc.k"
*** TURN *** [3c 6s 6c] [9h]
remowilliams said, "wow"
*** RIVER *** [3c 6s 6c 9h] [8d]
remowilliams said, "brutal"
Ninjahedge said, "lol"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BIGMAVERICK: shows [6d 6h] (four of a kind, Sixes)
rtsmith: shows [Qs Qd] (two pair, Queens and Sixes)
BIGMAVERICK collected 4530 from pot
Beardie is connected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4530 | Rake 0
Board [3c 6s 6c 9h 8d]
Seat 1: BIGMAVERICK (small blind) showed [6d 6h] and won (4530) with four of a kind, Sixes
Seat 2: Ninjahedge (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Habs2926 folded before Flop
Seat 5: farvendor folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: rtsmith showed [Qs Qd] and lost with two pair, Queens and Sixes
Seat 9: remowilliams (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Edited on July 8, 2006 at 10:23 PM. Reason : .]

7/8/2006 10:22:08 PM

yeah i got beat with pocket rockets against a 4 of a kind luckily i had 5 times his stack in chips


Btw yall should play on absolute poker... people tend to play right there.

[Edited on July 8, 2006 at 11:01 PM. Reason : .]

7/8/2006 10:54:12 PM

I don't want to play where people play "right"

oh and

Quote :

"suck it up and learn from it"

[Edited on July 9, 2006 at 11:21 AM. Reason : ]

7/9/2006 11:21:21 AM

People don't play "right" on absolute. Maybe it was just the low limits but playing 2/4 and 3/6 hold em people would always always call down with ace high. Bunch of morons, unless you miss a draw

7/9/2006 11:31:15 AM

Stupid question but does neteller charge a fee to move money back into your checking account?

7/9/2006 1:07:21 PM

not if you use the 3-4 day service

7/9/2006 1:27:27 PM

im in the FT 200K today,

my first big online since the stars bubble debacle

I'm Ill Hellmuth

7/9/2006 5:00:10 PM

this idiot to my lt

look:

Full Tilt Poker Game #783302896: $200,000 Guarantee! (4814908), Table 91 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:20:33 ET - 2006/07/09
Seat 1: apestyles (1,615)
Seat 2: BusesFull_IU (3,200)
Seat 3: lite_weight (2,815)
Seat 4: riverbaby11 (2,915)
Seat 5: topgunn99 (805)
Seat 6: fatrabbit666 (2,485)
Seat 7: partyhoppn (5,308)
Seat 8: Ill Hellmuth (5,087)
Seat 9: legzdimond (2,770)
partyhoppn posts the small blind of 20
Ill Hellmuth posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ill Hellmuth [Ad Qh]
legzdimond folds
apestyles folds
BusesFull_IU folds
lite_weight folds
riverbaby11 folds
topgunn99 folds
fatrabbit666 folds
partyhoppn calls 20
Ill Hellmuth raises to 200
partyhoppn raises to 5,308, and is all in
Ill Hellmuth calls 4,887, and is all in
partyhoppn shows [Js 3d]
Ill Hellmuth shows [Ad Qh]
Uncalled bet of 221 returned to partyhoppn
Ill Hellmuth: dumbass
*** FLOP *** [As Th 5d]
*** TURN *** [As Th 5d] [7c]
*** RIVER *** [As Th 5d 7c] [2d]
partyhoppn shows Ace Jack high
Ill Hellmuth shows a pair of Aces
Ill Hellmuth wins the pot (10,174) with a pair of Aces
Ill Hellmuth: what a &%@#ing moron
The blinds are now 25/50
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 10,174 | Rake 0
Board: [As Th 5d 7c 2d]
Seat 1: apestyles didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: BusesFull_IU didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: lite_weight didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: riverbaby11 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: topgunn99 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: fatrabbit666 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: partyhoppn (small blind) showed [Js 3d] and lost with Ace Jack high
Seat 8: Ill Hellmuth (big blind) showed [Ad Qh] and won (10,174) with a pair of Aces
Seat 9: legzdimond didn't bet (folded)

7/9/2006 6:22:02 PM

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT


i have QQ, the guy to my immediate left,raises to 500

blinds 50/100

I raise to like 1200 because i see him calling regardless

and the flop is rainbow 9 7 4

he bets 1700

i just call

turn 2

he goes all in for 9000 chips

i mean he and i were big stacks and this is early, i was like 28th in chips out of 1000

he was like 26th

I call, he shows AKoff

river K

Im gone


i want to vomit

7/9/2006 7:02:09 PM

You may not want to hear this right now, but I have an opinion on those plays.

You certainly didn't misplay either of the hands, but some would definately say that you overplayed them on the principle of "you can't win a tournament in the early stages, but can sure as hell lose it". In the mid-late stages of a big tournament, you're thrilled to get your money in like this, and you just have to live with the consequences.

For example, if his cards(J3o) were face up in the first hand, I would certainly fold to the all-in with AQ having only 200 out of 5000 invested. You're only a 60/40 favorite, and that potential double up is not going to give you drastically better chance of going deep in the tournament.

In the early stages, it's just not +EV to try to bust out a maniac unless you have more of a lock on the hand. Such as all-in preflop with AA or KK against his junk, or all-in postflop where you have at least top two. Just avoid these players, or try to play small pots with them.





[Edited on July 9, 2006 at 7:33 PM. Reason : .]

7/9/2006 7:33:10 PM

i agree that my first call, I should have used more restraint, but I dont mind rolling the dice somewhat early if i can double up and I am a 1.5/1 to 2:1 favorite .

the 2nd hand i disagree, yes early in the tournament, but to that extent, no one folds there, not ivey, not anyone with a moron to your left and 95% sure he has less than 8 outs folds

In person, i make the fold on the first one

[Edited on July 9, 2006 at 7:42 PM. Reason : ,]

7/9/2006 7:38:10 PM

Fair enough, granted you have that good of a read on him. Against a solid player I still say you can fold to that bet on the turn early in a tournament. I, for example, would never be making that bet with a worse hand than QQ. But then again I am a giant pussy, ask anyone.




[Edited on July 9, 2006 at 7:50 PM. Reason : .]

7/9/2006 7:49:58 PM

lol

7/9/2006 7:59:20 PM

Quote :

"For example, if his cards(J3o) were face up in the first hand, I would certainly fold to the all-in with AQ having only 200 out of 5000 invested. You're only a 60/40 favorite..."

Once again, I know I'm not a frequent participant in these discussions, but I have to STRONGLY disagree with this statement. You could write a lot on this topic, but I'll keep it short. The object of a tournament is to win all of the chips in play. If you think you are good enough to pass up a 60/40 edge and regularly do well in tournaments, you are either the best player ever or you are kidding yourself about what it takes to do well in poker tournaments.

This doesn't mean I advocate overplaying marginal hands early in tournaments, but if I know I'm a 60/40 favorite, my chips will be in the pot.

I'd love to hear from Turner or Ben about this.

7/9/2006 8:57:03 PM

except in tournament conditions you can't just rebuy in. I'd pass on a 60/40 that puts me out if I lose if I will later get an 80/20. Sure its great to get your chips in with the best of it, but even in tourneys (especially early on) I don't like taking chances with my tourney life at stake.

7/9/2006 9:01:55 PM

WTF IS THERE NO USPC THIS YEAR?

7/9/2006 10:29:38 PM

Quote :

"....but I have to STRONGLY disagree with this statement. You could write a lot on this topic, but I'll keep it short. The object of a tournament is to win all of the chips in play. If you think you are good enough to pass up a 60/40 edge and regularly do well in tournaments, you are either the best player ever or you are kidding yourself about what it takes to do well in poker tournaments."

I understand your position, and I too don't comment here regularly, but I strongly disagree with your assessment. NoidRoid has already provided my reasoning why, so let me paraphrase.

Early in a tournament, you get a chance to play all-in at a 60% advantage. Fine, 60% of the time you win and get a nice early bonus. However, it's hard to say if this bonus will truly help you in the long run. There's a lot of poker left to play, and anything can happen.

On the reverse side, if you lose, you're OUT. Done. Finished. Game Over. That sucks, and you're risking a lot. And for what? A small advantage in the beginning? That's typically too high a risk for minimal gain.

On the other hand, oftentimes taking that 60/40 chance is the right play. Two common situations where this is true are (1) when you're short-stacked, and (2) late in the tournament when the blinds are high. In each case you're compelled to gamble, b/c quite frankly you don't have time to wait for a big hand.

In short, yes it is the goal of every poker player to win all the chips in play in a tournament. You are however trying to do that without taking unneccessary risks. I'll take that 60/40 advantage while short-stacked, or late in the tournament when building a big stack is so critical to making a run to the final table. I'm not taking a 60/40 advantage on a bet that figuratively wins me pennies versus losing my wallet. If those pennies really are that valuable to you, you're probably not good enough to playing there in the first place.

My two cents...

7/9/2006 11:28:45 PM

btw I was over a 2:1

so idk what the huge problem is

i was getting about the same odds as AK vs KK


all this shit is the psychobabble anyone could read in any tournament book


i respect the views of about 5 people in this thread and only 1 has posted on this so far, i say that because they are accomplished and can understand playing in tournaments where it isnt a $5 buy in. Not to be a total dick, but i dont respect the opinion of people who get their hardons by tryng to talk "intellectual poker" playing in free tournaments because they dont have the sack to play for some real money.

It is easy to talk one way and then to play another. people know what they should do but deny what they would do. Like I said in a live, in-person tournament I may lay that down. But on the internet, when the idiots are throwing ther chips at you and you have a 2:1, I'll take that every fucking time



[Edited on July 10, 2006 at 1:13 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2006 12:50:44 AM

^ FYI I'd take 2:1 odds early in a tourney, which isn't the same as 60/40, so I agree with you there...

You're also right about free poker not being the same as real money poker. People who say otherwise are fooling themselves. I just choose not to be an ass about it.

I also always value an argument on its merit, not its messenger. Since you mentioned nothing about what I said, I can only conclude you found no errors in it. The fact that this "psychobabble" can be found in a book doesn't make it wrong.... unless of course you'd like to claim that NoidRoid is wrong, whom I was paraphrasing in the 1st place, is also wrong.

Thanks for giving me something to do during breaks on PP...

7/10/2006 1:36:47 AM

I actually had the exact same thing happen to me with AQ yesterday. I too had a read on the guy, and called his massive re-raise allin. He had A9, so I was a big favorite and I took him out of the game. You really hope your opponent has somewhat of a hand in this scenario because if you share a card then your odds are pretty good, but even vs. J3 you still have better odds than a coin flip, so I would probably have to call there. I've played too many tournaments where I fold any hand that isn't a 75%+ favorite and end out going out on the bubble, or just making it too the money. It is no longer worth several hours of my time to make the money just to go out a few hands later. I want to build a nice stack so I can coast to the final table if possible or go out in the first round and do something productive with the rest of my day.

7/10/2006 8:36:09 AM

I agree with exactly what David said. There is no point in just making it into the money of a tournament. Yoru goal should always be to win, which is what Karim was doing with his hand. This brings me back to last month when I was on the bubble of a $50 live tourney and made the correct read on my opponent who had AK v my 33. I ended up losing, but if I win that hand, I'm monster stack and take it down.

David, we finally agreed!

7/10/2006 10:17:43 AM

Speaking of AQo...what are your thoughts of playing this hand early in MTTs? I often find myself playing it very weak/tight. I fold to raises when I'm in position sometimes...just call from early position bc I dont want to play it out of position...or just call raises from late position to see what the flop comes(and even if and A hits I don't know that I'm always ahead).

I know some people like to accumulate chips early and some play pretty tight early in MTTs. I feel like I might be playing too ultra tight early in the MTT with this hand and I'm interested how anyone else plays AQ or similar hands early in MTT's.

7/10/2006 10:22:13 AM

^^ so you call his AI with 33?? I strongly disagree with that play if thats what happend. I would never never never call an allin hoping to be a coin flip.

7/10/2006 10:25:52 AM

Quote :

"I'd love to hear from Turner or Ben about this. "

i shouldnt be looking at this thread now, and i dont have internet at home yet in DE, but im actually glad to see this type of discussion has developed. im kinda torn on the situation, but ill probably begin writing something tonight at home.


btw, the new borgata room is absolutely immaculate.

running so many tables it's ridiculous.

ive been twice thus far.

last night, they had a huge late stage MTT sat going ($520+30 or something for the $5200 summer open event), a second chance cash tournament ($200+30), SNG sats, 2/4, 3/6, 6/12, 10/20, 20/40, 40/80, 80/160 LHE, 1-5, 5/10, 15/30/30/45, 30/60, 80/160, 300/600 7CS, 1/2, 2/5, 5/10, 10/25, 25/50 NLHE, 5/10, 10/20, and 80/160 lo8, all running full games with minimal lists, including enough 1/2, 2/5 nl and 2/4, 3/6 limit that there was no wait lists! even with all this action, many tables open for even more people.

The tables are larger and roomier, with autoshufflers. you no longer have the issue where you are banging those huge rolly chairs with the guy next to you, or you get the odd man out seat with no cup holder.

its really astounding the action they get there. i probably wont eve waste my time venturing to other casinos anymore.

They actually opened it a night early, and i was there for the first night. funny thing was somehow my 10/20 lhe game got stuck in the high limit room. its kinda fun to have a 25/50 nlhe table beside you with an 80/160 lhe table behind you, merely for gawking purposes between hands. one day.....


[Edited on July 10, 2006 at 10:40 AM. Reason : e]

7/10/2006 10:36:55 AM

Quote :

"^^ so you call his AI with 33?? I strongly disagree with that play if thats what happend. I would never never never call an allin hoping to be a coin flip."

Ever been shortstacked? When you're down to 7BB or less, I know I'm looking for anything resembling a coinflip or better. At that point you've run out of time trying to find a monster, b/c soon you'll be blinded down to the point that guys with 10-3 offsuit will have the odds to call you.

Another good scenario is when you have a huge stack. You can make those calls hoping to knock someone out and make a run at the final table. You can't make the final table without taking risks. Good hands just don't come up that often, and that's assuming you win when you get them. Additionally, I'll take a 77 vs someone's AK with a big stack b/c I'm a 55% favorite. Sure I may decline that bet if the opportunity comes around once, but if I can get into that scenario several times it'll pay off in the long run.

You gotta win races to win tournaments.... bottom line...

7/10/2006 11:22:43 AM

^^ moe...i had raised in early position with it. he came over the top. if i fold the hand, my stack is crippled (blind structure for the tournament was terrible), but i knew he had AK, so I called.

7/10/2006 11:22:57 AM

who is playing in the stars 150 seat guarentee this sunday?

7/10/2006 11:23:39 AM

^^ ok yeah understandable then

[Edited on July 10, 2006 at 11:34 AM. Reason : ^]

7/10/2006 11:33:59 AM

Quote :

"In short, yes it is the goal of every poker player to win all the chips in play in a tournament. You are however trying to do that without taking unneccessary risks. I'll take that 60/40 advantage while short-stacked, or late in the tournament when building a big stack is so critical to making a run to the final table. I'm not taking a 60/40 advantage on a bet that figuratively wins me pennies versus losing my wallet. If those pennies really are that valuable to you, you're probably not good enough to playing there in the first place. "

this is the statement that set me off

but i still stand by what i said and what i did

whats up david

and omg its ben

7/10/2006 11:51:34 AM

Quote :

"Speaking of AQo...what are your thoughts of playing this hand early in MTTs? "

I usually fold to a raise, maybe limp in late position. Been burnt by AK too many times. I've learned my lesson.

7/10/2006 12:14:24 PM

this is boobsr_gr8 btw,

this is just my work name

Id play it in late position or in the position I was in in the above hand

7/10/2006 12:16:46 PM

Well, seeing as how everyone in my entire group just left for the week, and i have no idea what im doing still and have basically a few hours work left for the rest of the week,


ill probably write something up when i finish lunch.

7/10/2006 12:25:54 PM

what are you eating for lunch? can we get a write up on that too?

7/10/2006 1:12:29 PM

aha

7/10/2006 1:15:23 PM

OK, I think ive finished all I needed to do for today, so, against my better judgement, im gonna go through some of these posts while im here at work.

im very tired, so if im not making sense or somehting is just flat out stupid, piss off. also, no planning, just flowing ideas.

Karim, first off im gonna go through the hands. keep in mind that there are many different "right" answers to these situations.

Quote :

"Full Tilt Poker Game #783302896: $200,000 Guarantee! (4814908), Table 91 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:20:33 ET - 2006/07/09 Seat 1: apestyles (1,615) Seat 2: BusesFull_IU (3,200) Seat 3: lite_weight (2,815) Seat 4: riverbaby11 (2,915) Seat 5: topgunn99 (805) Seat 6: fatrabbit666 (2,485) Seat 7: partyhoppn (5,308) Seat 8: Ill Hellmuth (5,087) Seat 9: legzdimond (2,770) partyhoppn posts the small blind of 20 Ill Hellmuth posts the big blind of 40 The button is in seat #6 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Ill Hellmuth [Ad Qh] partyhoppn calls 20 Ill Hellmuth raises to 200 partyhoppn raises to 5,308, and is all in Ill Hellmuth calls 4,887, and is all in partyhoppn shows [Js 3d] Ill Hellmuth shows [Ad Qh] Uncalled bet of 221 returned to partyhoppn Ill Hellmuth: dumbass *** FLOP *** [As Th 5d] *** TURN *** [As Th 5d] [7c] *** RIVER *** [As Th 5d 7c] [2d] partyhoppn shows Ace Jack high Ill Hellmuth shows a pair of Aces Ill Hellmuth wins the pot (10,174) with a pair of Aces Ill Hellmuth: what a &%@#ing moron The blinds are now 25/50 *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 10,174 | Rake 0 "

Dont hate, but this hand history makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

Do we really want to be doing this now?

It's so early in the tournament i really dont like this here. its 20/40 level, and your raise committed 200 chips out of a nice stack of 5k. the most important part of tournament play is equity versus a given range of hands, right? first off, this is a little dependant on the buyin level. but assiming that this is a >$10 tournament, what range do you see people limp RR'ing with? pushing no less? theres just no point in making this call here when you are more than likely destroyed. sure it worked out here, but i still think its probably unwise. youre wayyyyy too deep to be making these plays. even if you assign a very broad range for this type of play with a 10% bluff chance, AJs+, TT+, you are still WAAAAYYYYY behind your necessary nearly 50% equity needed to make this a profitable call. plug it into pokerstove and youll find that you are probably holding like a 20-30% equity to that range. and id consider that a wide range for this stage of the tournament, even if you give this guy no credit at all. (obv. unless its a rebuy and the guy is a rebuy monkey like i am, and in that case my range would be A2+, JT+, QT+, KT+, 22-AA, and you are getting an equity edge there, obv.) even morons get hands.

Quote :

" i have QQ, the guy to my immediate left,raises to 500 blinds 50/100 I raise to like 1200 because i see him calling regardless and the flop is rainbow 9 7 4 he bets 1700 i just call turn 2 he goes all in for 9000 chips i mean he and i were big stacks and this is early, i was like 28th in chips out of 1000 he was like 26th I call, he shows AKoff river K Im gone "

semi-standard, for me. for guys liek justin or sometimes even turner (i think) this early its a different story. id probably have RR'd the flop, but its a pooooosh. the biggest hole i have as a player (besides rollin the bones ) is overpair play, so dont listen to me here.

Quote :

"For example, if his cards(J3o) were face up in the first hand, I would certainly fold to the all-in with AQ having only 200 out of 5000 invested. You're only a 60/40 favorite, and that potential double up is not going to give you drastically better chance of going deep in the tournament. "

This is actually something ive been tossing around for the past few weeks in my head and i cant convince myself of a correct answer.

Ive heard that cardplayer or some other magazine did an article a few months ago about running into a situation in the wsop main event where it is hand 1: you have a stong pair (i dont remember if it was kings or queens, it makes lots of difference percentage wise, but conceptually i dont think it does), and you know your opponent has AK. he essentially RR pushes over your marginal raise. you are looking to call like $9800 into a pot with $10275 in it. IIRC their conclusion was that you have a much better chace to go deeper if you start with essentially a double stack. the marginal cEV edge creates for a higher $EV. Its a strange phenomenon relating to early tournament poker. technically, each $1 chip you have in your stack is worth more at the beginning of the tournament $EV wise than as you progress. Each level you move up, the $EV/chip decreases. I think Malmuth has done some intriguing statistical work with this concept.

I think that this concept is entirely valid, BUT, i dont agree with the conclusions from the cp article. we all know that tournament poker has the highest variance out of any of the forms of poker. its a beast that is hard to stomach. this is a situation where you CAN control certain aspects of the variance. its why nlhe cash games have a much lower vairance than other forms of holdem. I think that the proper answer to this concept is all about sample size. standard deviation can be a real kick in the teeth with a small sample size. so why i disagree with the cp article is that, how many times are you going to play in a $10k event? a few in your lifetime? so, looking at long term concepts is out of the question. there is no long term in big tournaments. most people who play online tournaments for a living suggest that you cannot truely begin to conceptualize your ROI for tournament situations untill you have logged multiple thousands of tournaments. Even then you probably will not accurately be able to distinguish your true ROI.

HOWEVER, the caveiat here is that in the online world, we have the ability to establish a true long term with tournament play. we CAN fire up 30-40 tournaments a day, log over a thousand in a month, and develop a sense of our ROI potential by year's end. Int his situation, you should NEVER pass up this equity edge, ideally. you would take this hand face up 100% of the time.

but point number three to this is that the tricky part about this is that the entry fee is meaningfull in one instance, and not the other. Obviously, your main motivation in wanting to control your variance in tournaments with larger entry fees goes along with human nature. ideally you shouldnt even consider this, but its impossible to ignore.


ehhhhhh more later.

[Edited on July 10, 2006 at 4:18 PM. Reason : btw, apestyles (1,615) bonk]

Forgot something.

anther key issue with taking that hand face up revloves around blind structure. in the wsop situation, you are ultra deep with slow blinds. In an aggressive structure, you MUST take more gambles to keep up. such as online 7 minute level tournaments, or per say the 80|20 daily at the taj. deep stack tournament poker is about as horribly understood by most people as shallow stack poker later in the tournament. Its what seperates the top guys from the rest of us goofballs that can barely sustain a positive roi.


speaking of which, why are so many people afraid of postflop play in tournaments?

[Edited on July 10, 2006 at 4:25 PM. Reason : e]

7/10/2006 4:17:41 PM

dude had been all-in for 2 consecutive hands b4, Id rather take my 2:1 vs what is basically a random hand vs folding into having to make a move to stay afloat

7/10/2006 4:34:54 PM

ben, im still interested in what you ate for lunch. please elaborate.

7/10/2006 4:39:58 PM

pumpernickle ryle swirl bread with turkey and ham and swiss.
cheddar cheese nip-chee packet
craisins.
coke-a-cola classic in a can.

still workin on the craisins.

7/10/2006 4:41:38 PM

what are craisins

sounds like raisins

also any word on the uspc

i took off for sept already

7/10/2006 4:43:01 PM

its basically raisins made with cranberries instead of grapes.


i saw a schedule for the prelim events and main event for the uspc last time i was at the taj, i think.

btw,

in the tournament area of the new borgata room, they have a Final table room.

retractable levels of chairs that come out of the walls, light racks, etc.

pushed back to allow for more tables when its not in use. Kinda cool.

7/10/2006 4:45:42 PM

Hope DE is treating you well Ben. Let me know when you make it over to Newark... I think you'd enjoy 80s night at Kates during the school year.

7/10/2006 4:57:21 PM

5207137), Table 7 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:39:38 ET - 2006/07/10
Seat 1: c_corcos (1,600)
Seat 2: Max Pressure 31 (9,075)
Seat 3: ianh64 (3,348), is sitting out
Seat 4: XBRAKEMANX (4,150)
Seat 5: DarrellLG (975), is sitting out
Seat 6: microxx (3,310)
Seat 7: loopy loop (12,410)
Seat 8: Kol (6,385)
Seat 9: meatballer92 (8,660)
loopy loop posts the small blind of 60
Kol posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Kol [Qs Qc]
meatballer92 calls 120
c_corcos calls 120
Max Pressure 31 folds
ianh64 folds
XBRAKEMANX folds
DarrellLG folds
microxx folds
loopy loop calls 60
Kol raises to 750
meatballer92 calls 630
c_corcos folds
loopy loop calls 630
*** FLOP *** [Qd 9c 8s]
loopy loop checks
Kol bets 900
meatballer92 folds
loopy loop has 15 seconds left to act
loopy loop raises to 2,160
Kol raises to 5,635, and is all in
loopy loop calls 3,475
Kol shows [Qs Qc]
loopy loop shows [Jc Th]
*** TURN *** [Qd 9c 8s] [4h]
*** RIVER *** [Qd 9c 8s 4h] [5c]
Kol shows three of a kind, Queens
loopy loop shows a straight, Queen high
loopy loop wins the pot (13,640) with a straight, Queen high
Kol stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 13,640 | Rake 0
Board: [Qd 9c 8s 4h 5c]
Seat 1: c_corcos folded before the Flop
Seat 2: Max Pressure 31 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: ianh64 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: XBRAKEMANX didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: DarrellLG didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: microxx (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: loopy loop (small blind) showed [Jc Th] and won (13,640) with a straight, Queen high
Seat 8: Kol (big blind) showed [Qs Qc] and lost with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 9: meatballer92 folded on the Flop


Ummm, okay...so here's the deal. I knew he had JT before he even raised. These some idiot came up with the concept of waiting just until the clock runs out to bet which isnt that bad IF YOU DONT ONLY DO IT WHEN YOU HAVE THE NUTS They think that if they wait 25624563456 seconds before they bet they are being tricky. So thats how I knew he had JT. 2nd of all, I bet and the min raise after...c'mon. So my question here is, do I lay down the set here given the nature of the game (online tournament, loose PF ect) and wait for a better spot? Sets dont come along very often in turnies...just wondering if this was a situation where I was supposed to go broke.

7/10/2006 5:00:48 PM

yeah its kinda dead now during the summer....

im actually basically living in trolley square in wilm, you should know where that is.

w/in walking distance of kelly's logan house and those other places.

7/10/2006 5:01:21 PM