i thought all that stuff that happened the second time around was still part of timeline A

or could it have been timeline B and jack and them were thrown forward in time AND across timelines?

2/4/2010 3:48:56 PM

i've got a feeling smokey went into the cabin and used the knife with which jacob was killed to hang the tapestry on the wall. liana and her crew(or a previous version of them i guess) then surrounded the cabin with chalk, trapping mib in there by surprise. At some point somebody breaks the chalk and mib gets out. jacob makes his tapestry then liana comes back to the cabin to check if smokey is still there and hes not and this cycle just goes on forever with new bodies. I know i'm not right and don't really know what im talking about but i think i'm on to somethhing here. Its a cycle.


Also, clear water heals and could possibly be how ricardos was created but dark water could be the opposite and it definitely kills whoevers in it and probably is either like the apple of eden or creates the opposite of richard which could mean a mini smoke monster demon.

What you have to keep in mind is that the pirates had no idea what dark water meant as jacob had never been dead. Jacob probably didn't even know anything about it since he didn't inform them in the letter. They walked out on sayid assuming he was dead and the process was over so they obviously haven't seen anything like this before which makes me thing sayid will be evil.

This would leave locke as the main hero along with the other losties. I doubt it would come down to simply sayid fighting smokey for it all.

Also, smokey might not even be evil but i do think sayid will be regardless. Smokey probably already knows whats going on and has a plan to use ricardos for his own protection. sjgr!

2/4/2010 4:25:54 PM

they were thrown accross time-lines. When they went back, they started or were on a second-time line. That's the time line the bomb definitely went off on, that ben was definitely shot on, and that's the one we saw the Oceanic flight reach LAX.

Jack and them went back to their original time-line, where Iliana, ben, etc were.

at least that's the way i see it.

[Edited on February 4, 2010 at 4:37 PM. Reason : .]

2/4/2010 4:32:54 PM

^ word

^^ lol

2/4/2010 4:36:37 PM

Quote :

"This would leave locke as the main hero along with the other losties. I doubt it would come down to simply sayid fighting smokey for it all. "

WAT?

2/4/2010 4:57:36 PM

so someone noted that in the alternate timline jack was only given 1 extra bottle of vodka by the flight attendant. that was our first hint that the plane wasn't going to crash.

in the first episode jack immediately throws down one extra bottle of vodka, and he puts the other in his jackert pocket. later that extra bottle is used to sterilze kates hands and jack's wound before he is sewed up on the beach after the crash.

2/4/2010 4:59:31 PM

2/4/2010 5:09:03 PM

when did lapidus become important, anyway?

did jacob visit him?

2/4/2010 5:54:45 PM

any chance sawyer wasn't a con man in the new timeline? when hurley tells arzt he won the lottery, sawyer says that he shouldn't tell people that because someone could try to take advantage of him. it might not mean anything and could just be sawyer being sketchy like he always was. considering a lot of other people's lives are different in this timeline i think it could be possible

and for everyone who read this:

http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/02/02/lost-premiere-damon-carlton/

would you consider the link to the comic-con video referenced by carlton cuse to be a spoiler since there's a chance that it could be addressed in the next episode?

2/4/2010 6:04:27 PM

^ I was thinking the same thing about Sawyer.

2/4/2010 6:16:24 PM

not sure if this has been posted but...

http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/02/04/lost-a-side-by-side-comparison/

2/4/2010 6:29:46 PM

i was thinking that Sawyer was still a con-man, and told Hurley to be careful almost to gain initial trust so that he could possibly pull a con on him in the future. He had some conniving glances and looks, especially exiting the plane behind Hurley.

2/4/2010 8:05:36 PM

I'm really struggling to care about any of the flash sideways characters after... five seasons of caring about the real characters. I know they are going to end up being plot devices and not real people

2/4/2010 8:11:35 PM

^^ that was my initial reaction to it

2/4/2010 8:48:38 PM

So in that side by side thing jack is sitting in row 24 in one and row 23 in the other.

Maybe by blowing up the island they changed the numbers. This would also explain why hurley happens to be lucky now.

2/4/2010 10:36:06 PM

the way i see it is

there's the alternate reality where the plane crashes

and there's the alternate reality where the plane doesn't crash

and at the end of the series, the two realities meet causing the same end result--showing us that it doesn't matter whether or not the plane crashes

2/4/2010 10:42:07 PM

^yeah but we know time on the island progresses at a different rate than time outside of it. I feel like it won't be wrapped up in a tiny little bow as easily as some hope.

2/4/2010 10:57:31 PM

Quote :

"but there really isn't anything that would suggest ben was shot by sayid"

i beg to differ. as discussed earlier there is plenty of evidence to suggest all of the events that were carried out this time were carried out then. such as the picture of the LOST guys in the dharma initiative even though sun/ben/lapidus had not left the original timeline, dr. changs broken hand, and charlotte's memories. Again I fail to see why these people would act differently in one trip back in time when compared to another, especially given the evidence we have suggesting the same events have played out.

Also, IIRC, but probably do not, I think when ben was getting carried to the temple richard said something along the lines of if they heal him his innocence would be lost and he won't remember any of this. I believe that was their round about way of addressing the sayid issue hurely and miles discussed.

2/5/2010 9:46:59 AM

You're right about all of that. And they did say he wouldn't remember what happened before.

But one very important thing to remember is that on the second time line they DID land at LAX and DID NOT crash on the island like the plane on the first time-line. So with that along with all the small differences on the plane, we know for A FACT that things (large and small) can differ between the two time-lines. While some things can be the same (all of those people, minus shannon, were on an oceanic flight from Sydney to LA. Jack said the drink wasn't very strong, etc.).

Hurley and them being in a photo on the wall doesn't mean Ben was shot, the bomb went off, etc. It just means there was a version of Jack, Hurley, etc. in the 70's on that time-line as well. It may or may not have been the same versions of them we think it was. The time-line with the plane landing could be 50th iteration for all we know.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just that completely dismissing the possibility is very illogical.

[Edited on February 5, 2010 at 10:18 AM. Reason : .]

2/5/2010 10:16:54 AM

Quote :

"But one very important thing to remember is that on the second time line they DID land at LAX and DID NOT crash on the island like the plane on the first time-line. So with that along with all the small differences on the plane, we know for A FACT that things (large and small) can differ between the two time-lines."

Ben was shot by Sayid before the bomb

The plane landed after the bomb

Assuming that the bomb actually triggered the alternate timeline

2/5/2010 10:19:13 AM

yeah. but like you said, that's assuming the bomb triggered the alternate time-line. And that it wasn't triggered by them simply going back. Or that they didn't simply travel back in time, but back and across to a different time-line altogether to begin with.

There's nothing to really suggest the bomb triggered the second time-line. More that it happened on the 2nd time-line. We just know that when it seemed to go off, they jumped back to where they were supposed to be. From what I gathered, we were supposed to see the other flight as being the future of that.

I don't know any better than anyone else, I'm just trying to not dismiss possibilities based and facts that aren't really there.

[Edited on February 5, 2010 at 10:25 AM. Reason : .]

2/5/2010 10:20:59 AM

^^thank you.

Quote :

"I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just that completely dismissing the possibility is very illogical."

you comment on logic is very comical. 1. because we're talking about lost and 2. because you were able to acknowledge all the points yet still decided to argue that perhaps sayid never shot ben with little or no basis other than you had already stated it and now want it to be the case.

I've never said there is not a new timeline, but we don't know what triggered it. i can more conclusively support that ben was shot in a previous timeline than i could the bomb triggering the alternate timeline.

speaking of little things being different. i'm shocked no one has mentioned how when miles came back down the stairs in his introduction scene that the pictures on the walls were different and that this was in synch with the hatch exploding.

[Edited on February 5, 2010 at 10:26 AM. Reason : ^ + 1]

2/5/2010 10:25:56 AM

we can be talking about pink-striped elephants, logic is logic, it doesn't change the rules of AND, OR, IF THEN, ALL, SOME, NONE, etc.

Yes, acknowledging that what you said is true is fine. It's like acknowledging that all of the statements in a logical argument are true. What i said was that your conclusion is not right. Because even though your statements are true, your logic is off.

And no, it's not that I want it to be the case. I'm just not dismissing it as easily as you.

Quote :

"I've never said there is not a new timeline, but we don't know what triggered it. i can more conclusively support that ben was shot in a previous timeline than i could the bomb triggering the alternate timeline."

Nobody ever suggested you said there wasn't a new time-line. What i got from your comment was that you were saying the things the people we saw in the 70's did the same thing on the other time-line, or that it was the same time-line and that the new time-line wasn't created until after.

There's nothing conclusive at all to suggest the bomb is what "triggered" an alternate time-line to be created, if that's what you mean. I agree 100%. But since we don't know if what we saw happened in the 70's was part of time-line A or just similar to time-line A but really time-line B... we really can't say one way or the other about Ben being shot on time-line A.


Personally, I don't think the bomb triggered the alternate time-line. I think it just caused events to unfold differently on the time-line it was set off on.

2/5/2010 10:36:48 AM

Quote :

"And no, it's not that I want it to be the case. I'm just not dismissing it as easily as you."

since it is outrageous to dismiss theory then we should all fairly assume christian is really roger rabbit, jacob is the ghost of christmas psat and ben is a warlock. nevermind that their is no supporting evidence or that it is outrageously stupid because despite those factors it would be illogical to dismiss the possibility.

the cloud will be coming out any moment now, i can feel it.

Also, truth be told we don't even know if it is an alternate reality that is simultaneously happening. i say this because we only see what is happening on the plane in 2004 and what is happening on the island in 2007. I find it just as likely that the writers are showing us how their lives will end up having never been brought to the island and that later in the season we'll see what happens to make this the case. much like what took place in season 3 or 4.

[Edited on February 5, 2010 at 10:53 AM. Reason : oh yeah]

2/5/2010 10:50:31 AM

easy with the cloud shit. Look, you know how ridiculous the shit you just spouted off is... i mean that was the whole point of you mentioning those things.

The thing you're arguing against - that ben may not have been shot on the original time-line - is nowhere near as ridiculous as those things. I'll admit that the whole reason for the Ben possibly not being shot thing being brought up to begin with is much much more of stretch.

But given what we know so far, things happening somewhat differently in the 70's for the people we're watching now is certainly a possibility.

Do you disagree with that? - I'm not asking what you think happened or is going to be revealed to have happened, but whether or not it's really THAT impossible. And not in a ridiculous Ben is Roger Rabbit way, but legitimately based on what has been in canon.

[Edited on February 5, 2010 at 11:01 AM. Reason : .]

2/5/2010 10:59:21 AM

2/5/2010 11:03:07 AM

ha!

2/5/2010 12:14:03 PM

THAT SCENE WAS IN 2004 WHICH IS 5 YEARS BEFORE AVATAR CAME OUT SO IT MUST MEAN THAT JACK TIME TRAVELED!

2/5/2010 1:40:17 PM

^ yeah but the real question is...

time-line A or B?!?!?!

2/5/2010 2:10:00 PM

B

2/5/2010 2:58:48 PM

i'd be willign to bet money the knife sticking the tapestry into the cabin is the same knife and very significant

2/5/2010 9:08:10 PM

how bout 2 grand or whatever you wanted people to put up to prove you are real

2/5/2010 10:36:50 PM

we can make it like a parlay so if i win then i get double and if i lose the bet then i just have to prove im real for free.

[Edited on February 5, 2010 at 10:50 PM. Reason : gotta hurry up and raise the money before the show progresses though]

2/5/2010 10:49:05 PM

money's already there

2/5/2010 10:52:18 PM

proof. theres a way to do this.

2/7/2010 12:42:30 AM

it's there. trust me. god i can't wait for you to be wrong.

2/8/2010 12:48:40 AM

season 1 episode 4 is when Locke really gets introduced to the show.

it's the episode when they first show him in his office. he is sitting at his desk when his manager comes by to give him crap. he walks off and locke begins using his tape calculator. he hits enter on it 2 times and you hear the tape scroll. the second time, right before the show cuts to commercial, the tape scroll makes the smoke monster chattering noise.

it's definitely worth checking out if you like little easter eggs like this. the sequence starts around 9:30 according to streaming netflix.

2/8/2010 8:28:31 AM

Quote :

"the tape scroll makes the smoke monster chattering noise."

Quote :

"In the voice-over commentary for "The 23rd Psalm" on the Season 2 DVD, producer Bryan Burk confirmed that one of the Monster's sound effects is the receipt printer from a NYC taxi cab."

2/8/2010 8:39:07 AM

it's more the fact that locke is sitting there using the thing, in the 4th episode of the show. and the second time the pitch of the noise changes from the first time he hits the button to directly mimic the monster. that kind of detail and foreshadowing is plain awesome.

i mention it for the easter egg, not for some great revelation about what the noise is. thanks for stopping by and trying to make me look like a moron though.

2/8/2010 8:44:36 AM

Quote :

"thanks for stopping by and trying to make me look like a moron though."

you kinda do it to yourself man

2/8/2010 12:50:30 PM

ok d-bag.

so you remembered that in s1 episode 4 locke's taped calculator changed tone on the second click right before the show went to commercial break in order to foreshadow that the smoke monster/mib would one day animate himself as locke?

no you definitely did not. also it hasn't been mentioned since flocke/smoke monster/mib has been revealed. so both of you can fuck off. you're both so all knowing and really truly do remember every key detail every to be displayed through 5 seasons, all while understanding everything about such a complex story line.

2/8/2010 1:57:01 PM

Quote :

"But given what we know so far, things happening somewhat differently in the 70's for the people we're watching now is certainly a possibility. Do you disagree with that? - I'm not asking what you think happened or is going to be revealed to have happened, but whether or not it's really THAT impossible. And not in a ridiculous Ben is Roger Rabbit way, but legitimately based on what has been in canon. "

as you said of course the things I said were ridiculous, and while what you said wasn't as ridiculous I believe that we have just as little evidence to draw those conclusions. so while i don't believe it to be impossible I'd place it in the 95% unlikely category compared to the 99.9% unlikely category where I would place what I said.

again i reiterate that we have evidence that the major events we saw happening in the 1970s took place before but we have no true indication of things happening differently for anyone at this current time since the 815 landing has not been fully explained as an alternate timeline and can be reasonably explained otherwise. mostly based on the previous use of flashing future events in conjunction with the regular story progression and since the time frames depicted during the 815 landing are not the same as those seen on the island.

2/8/2010 2:02:07 PM

Quote :

"ok d-bag. so you remembered that in s1 episode 4 locke's taped calculator changed tone on the second click right before the show went to commercial break in order to foreshadow that the smoke monster/mib would one day animate himself as locke? no you definitely did not."

i heard the aforementioned podcast and watched a lot of season 1 over again with one of my friends back in december. so yes, i definitely did. i also made a comment a few days ago about MiB choosing locke all the way back in season 1 on that episode.

Quote :

"also it hasn't been mentioned since flocke/smoke monster/mib has been revealed. so both of you can fuck off. you're both so all knowing and really trulyteo do remember every key detail every to be displayed through 5 seasons, all while understanding everything about such a complex story line."

never claimed to remember every detail. i just don't go around stating the obvious like you do

Quote :

"season 1 episode 4 is when Locke really gets introduced to the show."

no shit. everyone remembers "walkabout." it's one of the best episodes.

Quote :

"it's the episode when they first show him in his office. he is sitting at his desk when his manager comes by to give him crap. he walks off and locke begins using his tape calculator. he hits enter on it 2 times and you hear the tape scroll. the second time, right before the show cuts to commercial, the tape scroll makes the smoke monster chattering noise."

i'm willing to bet that just about every person who posts in this thread has watched each season at least twice, and it's easy to pick up on that noise after you've heard it from the monster.

and let's not forget this post where you stated a bunch of obvious facts and speculation that had been discussed during the months after season 5 ended and then said you were too lazy to go back and look for it

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=566377&page=6#13708455

who's the d-bag now?

2/8/2010 3:41:16 PM

still you

2/8/2010 3:41:50 PM

oh hey everyone it's mambagrl

[Edited on February 8, 2010 at 3:43 PM. Reason : user]

2/8/2010 3:42:59 PM

numerous people point out things i find obvious. i don't feel the need to show how good i am at lost by calling them out and showing everyone that i am a pro tv watcher. i point out obvious things sometimes, but they're either easter eggs, or things that could really be discussed further.

and no i'm not going to go back through an old thread and look for things when i can just restate them in a convenient place, where they haven't been rehashed yet, where everyone who comes across this thread could see it and perhaps use it as a reminder.

and don't forget everyone, if you haven't seen every episode at least twice you don't belong in this thread. either that or you have a fucking life.

[Edited on February 8, 2010 at 3:53 PM. Reason : ]

2/8/2010 3:50:03 PM

Jesus Christ shut the fuck up with the arguing.

2/8/2010 3:51:34 PM

^^you also gotta read the blogs and keep up with the lives of the actresses.

2/8/2010 3:56:26 PM

Quote :

"again i reiterate that we have evidence that the major events we saw happening in the 1970s took place before but we have no true indication of things happening differently for anyone at this current time since the 815 landing has not been fully explained as an alternate timeline and can be reasonably explained otherwise."

I gotcha. well... from the episode it seemed pretty clear to me (and a hell of a lot of other people) to be some sort of alternate-timeline/reality/universe. A bunch of characters we know are in a similar situation with some big differences - the island being under water right from the opening scene, and the plane landing safely - and a bunch of small changes.








SPOILER
















someone posted a link a few pages back with the writers/producers/whatever they're calling themselves talking about the first episode. The spoilers listed in the article are all listed as spoilers for that episode. But I guess they could be spoilers for the whole season if you really don't think we're dealing with alternate-timelines/realities/whatever. Anyhow, they talk about it in there. And they refer to them as "Flash-Sideways." And they say straight up that there are big differences and small differences. And that's why they showed 2 big differences in the first episode (the island being underwater, and the plane landing safely). Doesn't mean Ben wasn't shot in the original "reality" we were observing. But since I know things are different between these 2 worlds - not just based on common sense, but on what they've said - I put ben not being shot in one of the timelines/realities/universes at 50/50 simply because I don't know.




















/SPOILERS






























[Edited on February 8, 2010 at 4:09 PM. Reason : more space]

2/8/2010 4:07:02 PM

Quote :

"and no i'm not going to go back through an old thread and look for things when i can just restate them in a convenient place, where they haven't been rehashed yet, where everyone who comes across this thread could see it and perhaps use it as a reminder."

it's etiquette, dude. don't try to act like you're doing a service to everyone else when you admitted you didn't feel like going back through a few pages to check and see if things had already been discussed. what you're really doing is saying "i don't give a shit what you people have talked about already. i'm gonna post what i want to talk about." if you go back and see that everything you are about to post has been discussed, just don't say anything about it. if you thought of something that no one else brought up, by all means go ahead and say it.

Quote :

"and don't forget everyone, if you haven't seen every episode at least twice you don't belong in this thread. either that or you have a fucking life."

because the show hasn't been on for 5.5 years, and you don't have a life if you are able to take 40-45 minutes out of your day to rewatch old episodes between seasons

Quote :

"I gotcha. well... from the episode it seemed pretty clear to me (and a hell of a lot of other people) to be some sort of alternate-timeline/reality/universe. A bunch of characters we know are in a similar situation with some big differences - the island being under water right from the opening scene, and the plane landing safely - and a bunch of small changes."

also, the flackback/flash forward sound from previous seasons was replaced with a different sound, which says to me that they aren't simply moving backwards or forwards in time now. although i guess it's kind of back in time since it's 2004 in the other timeline.

[Edited on February 8, 2010 at 4:26 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2010 4:14:58 PM