Not that your parents shouldn't know where you stand on it, but you have to keep in mind where they're coming from. As irrational as you might think their beliefs are, and as dumb as you might think it, when they look at you and hear what you say, their worldview is such that they see you in very real, very imminent danger.

I know the conversation has derailed from your original post, and has gone into a half-baked conversation on apologetics, without doing anything but scratch the surface... And you can obviously pull the same crap here, as at your parents dinner table from now until the end of time. But really, we all know that you're not earnestly looking for an answer to your question. You, just like the folks you're criticizing, have made up your mind on the matter. And hey, you should be okay with that.

But before judging the people who brought you into the world too harshly for having a strongly held belief, and a genuine concern for you, and your life... Imagine, just for a second, that you're them. That you honestly, wholeheartedly, believe this thing to be true, and your child is throwing it in your face, and telling you that everything you believe is wrong. Then, on top of that, more-or-less calls you a fool for believing it.

And you're really proud of yourself for doing it too. Good job.

10/6/2009 10:13:18 AM

Another reason why I just don't discuss it with parents. I only really ever discuss it with tight friends and even then not without feeling them out on it first...

10/6/2009 10:32:28 AM

hehe, I bow my head when they do prayers at family functions. It's just not worth it to open that can of worms.

10/6/2009 10:37:55 AM

It is not possible to "know" anything about the everything question. To some, the answer is God, to others, the answer is the big bang. Both conclusions are inconclusive based on the evidence, and are subject to endless scientific scrutiny. Neither conclusion has more merit than the other, regardless of your stance, because neither conclusion can be proven scientifically. This is the formidable stance of most agnostics, and agnostics are the most rational of thinkers on these subjects, despite the claims of anyone outside this category. You simply cannot know if God exists, period. Anyone that attempts to suggest otherwise, is simply wrong. Anyone that attempts to use semantics to claim that they are "more right" than someone else, is lying to themselves and is making a faith-based assertion. You cannot "reasonably know" something, you either know it, or you do not. Believe what you must, but remember well that it is just that, a belief, not knowledge.

10/6/2009 11:06:59 AM

The Big Bang is not inconclusive based on the evidence. Based on the evidence, it's one notch below a fact. It's at worst a certainty.

God, on the other hand...

10/6/2009 11:09:26 AM

Science. It works, bitches.

10/6/2009 11:13:54 AM

Quote :

"Science fails to recognize the single most potent element in human existence."

10/6/2009 11:15:39 AM

Quote :

"The Big Bang is not inconclusive based on the evidence. Based on the evidence, it's one notch below a fact. It's at worst a certainty."

It is the most plausible theory to scientific minds, but of course, it remains a theory riddled with problems. It is not conclusive. The big bang theory is not a stable theory. Where did those two particles come from? Whereas religion contends a God was always there before the nothing. Evolutionists must contend that those particles came from somewhere, and that somewhere is well, nothing?

[Edited on October 6, 2009 at 11:23 AM. Reason : -]

10/6/2009 11:22:57 AM

whoa whoa there buddy. evolution has nothing to do with the big bang. And Big bang doesn't need to explain where the initial hot state came from. The big bang theory is the conclusion that we have come to based on available evidence. It's not like we decided it was the case and then went out to prove it.

You calling people who agree with the science of the big bang "evolutionists" is fairly revealing about your bias.

10/6/2009 11:26:11 AM

Quote :

"The Big Bang is not inconclusive based on the evidence. Based on the evidence, it's one notch below a fact. It's at worst a certainty."

10/6/2009 11:27:00 AM

Quote :

"jesus criticized the pharisees and scribes for their interpretations. for example when the pharisees brought an adulterous woman to jesus to be stoned in accordance to the law he said the he did not condemn her and criticized the pharisees."

He condoned the laws in their current time and context. That's the bottom line. Jesus should have come out and said, in clear language, that the old laws were wrong. The Jesus character is a coward. He should have said that owning another human being was never okay, during any time, for any group of people.

Quote :

"and no christian will ever be able to "win" that point, religion is based on faith. "

When you define faith, you'll realize why I think your belief makes no sense.

Quote :

"And I'm sure you think all Muslims are terrorists. The people with the "god hates fags" signs are outliers, nothing more."

Ugh. Westboro Baptist Church is pretty extreme, yeah. Christians that think being gay is wrong, and a sin, are not fringe Christians, though. That's a widely held belief, especially among southern Christians, isn't it?

Quote :

"Not that your parents shouldn't know where you stand on it, but you have to keep in mind where they're coming from. As irrational as you might think their beliefs are, and as dumb as you might think it, when they look at you and hear what you say, their worldview is such that they see you in very real, very imminent danger."

As in, they think I'm going to hell? Okay, right. That's the problem. It doesn't matter that they personally don't believe I deserve to go there - their religion, and God, says otherwise. Christianity says that everyone deserves to go to Hell. That's a huge problem. I maintain that no one deserves to be tortured for eternity for not believing in the right God. In fact, no one deserves to be tortured for eternity for anything. If you think that the God that created Hell, and is actively sending the vast majority of humanity there, is a moral God...why do you think that? If you argue that it's God's morality, not ours...that's just a cop out. I'm capable of looking at what God supposedly has done, and determining him as immoral. It doesn't matter that I'm using my own sense of morality to make that judgment. My moral standard is the only one that matters, to me, in evaluating an action as moral or immoral. A benevolent God would not create Hell, or send anyone there...period.

Quote :

"But really, we all know that you're not earnestly looking for an answer to your question. You, just like the folks you're criticizing, have made up your mind on the matter. And hey, you should be okay with that."

Yes, except I'm not making any unjustified claims about the universe or what happens after this life. I haven't even made up my mind that there is no God, necessarily. I'm saying religion, and the gods they claim to represent, are not reasonably worthy of my belief. It's not like I'm just sticking to atheism in spite of evidence to the contrary. Unless there is evidence to the contrary, in which case, I'll happily convert to whatever religion you support with facts.

Quote :

"But before judging the people who brought you into the world too harshly for having a strongly held belief, and a genuine concern for you, and your life... Imagine, just for a second, that you're them. That you honestly, wholeheartedly, believe this thing to be true, and your child is throwing it in your face, and telling you that everything you believe is wrong. Then, on top of that, more-or-less calls you a fool for believing it."

And yet, they seem to have taken it just fine. Like I said, it's not about throwing it in their face or making them feel bad about it. It's about letting them know what I think, and why I think it. It's not my fault that they've chosen to believe this thing that I can't get behind. I don't think having an unrealistic worldview is helping them. I think they would be better off not wasting money on tithes, not wasting time going to church, and not wasting time reading the bible. If I truly think that religion is an invalid belief, I should want them to change their minds on it. It doesn't mean I'm going to come right out and criticize them on those points. All I can really do is explain what I believe, why I believe it, and hope that they see the validity of my position.

I don't know anyone that deconverts from Christianity, and as a result becomes an atheist, and regrets the deconversion. It's not like you lose something, you just come to the realization that your old beliefs were absurd and had no basis in reality. Christianity degrades human life - it says that everyone is undeserving of God's love, and deserves to suffer for it. If I stand by that statement, and I love my parents, I should want them to not be held hostage by that belief.

Quote :

"And you're really proud of yourself for doing it too. Good job."

I don't know if proud is the right word, but I'm confident that I did the appropriate thing.

Quote :

"To some, the answer is God, to others, the answer is the big bang. Both conclusions are inconclusive based on the evidence, and are subject to endless scientific scrutiny. Neither conclusion has more merit than the other, regardless of your stance, because neither conclusion can be proven scientifically."

Haha...k. Does anything have more merit than anything else, or are we just brains in a vat, with no ability to make statements about the world we live in, because it could technically be an illusion?

Quote :

"Science fails to recognize the single most potent element in human existence."

And which potent element is that?

Quote :

"Evolutionists must contend that those particles came from somewhere, and that somewhere is well, nothing?"

No. Just flat out, no. No one is saying that the big bang came from nothing, or that anything came from nothing. At most, they might say that we don't know what was before the big bang. That is not the same as nothing.

10/6/2009 11:27:45 AM

Quote :

"You calling people who agree with the science of the big bang "evolutionists" is fairly revealing about your bias."

I wanted to take the discussion in a different direction, as a method of lateral thinking. I honestly have no bias here, I'm interested in all viewpoints. I used that terminology to awaken some passion.

Quote :

"Haha...k. Does anything have more merit than anything else, or are we just brains in a vat, with no ability to make statements about the world we live in, because it could technically be an illusion?"

This may seem like wisdom to you, and to others like you, but it remains a rational assertion in regards to knowledge.

Quote :

"No. Just flat out, no. No one is saying that the big bang came from nothing, or that anything came from nothing. At most, they might say that we don't know what was before the big bang. That is not the same as nothing."

While I respect your stance of "not knowing" what was before the big bang, I am of a different opinion, you cannot know what was before the big bang.

[Edited on October 6, 2009 at 11:41 AM. Reason : -]

10/6/2009 11:38:02 AM

Quote :

"Yes, except I'm not making any unjustified claims about the universe or what happens after this life. I haven't even made up my mind that there is no God, necessarily. I'm saying religion, and the gods they claim to represent, are not reasonably worthy of my belief. It's not like I'm just sticking to atheism in spite of evidence to the contrary. Unless there is evidence to the contrary, in which case, I'll happily convert to whatever religion you support with facts."

There isn't one, there won't be one, it's sort of the nature of the beast.

Quote :

"Like I said, it's not about throwing it in their face or making them feel bad about it"

I must have misread the initial post, it sounded a little more malevolent than that.

Quote :

"Christianity degrades human life - it says that everyone is undeserving of God's love, and deserves to suffer for it."

You conveniently forgot to mention "But God loves them all anyway" in there.

Quote :

"If I stand by that statement, and I love my parents, I should want them to not be held hostage by that belief. "

Likewise, that's how they feel. So it would be rational to accept it as a stalemate, with the recognition that in all likelihood you won't be changing their minds / hearts on the matter.

Quote :

"And which potent element is that?"

Faith. (The quote being from a certain metal band)

10/6/2009 11:40:40 AM

is your repeated use of "the jesus character" you just trying to look like a pompous douche, or do you think he never existed?

10/6/2009 11:55:22 AM

I don't know if he existed. There may have been a guy named Jesus at the time, but I don't believe he could have performed miracles as described by the bible. As far as I'm concerned, the bible is just another fiction story, and Jesus is one of the characters in it. I doubt he actually said everything that the bible says he said. There's no way of verifying that what Jesus said was actually him saying it, and not just whoever was writing the bible, so I refer to him as Jesus, the character, not Jesus, the person.

10/6/2009 11:59:24 AM

there is no way to know anything you don't witness for sure, but historians have a method for this stuff, they don't just accept things at face value. jesus existed, he may not have been the son of god and performed miracles and rose from the dead but he existed. the bible is full of historical facts paralleled in other historical writings. the way of verifying things is at looking at different records from different people and construction time lines based on contextual evidence.

10/6/2009 12:07:50 PM

However, non-biblical references to Jesus or any of the earth-shattering things that he did are lacking, despite the historical record of 1st century Palestine being fairly robust. If there was credible, non-biblical reference to christ's resurrection or anything else, you'd have a lot more Christians.

10/6/2009 12:22:40 PM

I generally don't acknowledge the existence of historical people without proof of a social security card, bank account number(s), or birth certificate.


and not the short form, the long form birth certificate.

10/6/2009 12:53:24 PM

Quote :

" "

Excellent rebuttal.

10/6/2009 12:57:57 PM

Quote :

"I generally don't acknowledge the existence of historical people without proof of a social security card, bank account number(s), or birth certificate. and not the short form, the long form birth certificate."

I know you're being sarcastic, but I can't tell in which direction. It's a wee bit easier to prove Obama's existence than Jesus Christ.

10/6/2009 1:05:02 PM

^^

'The Big Bang is a certainty' deserves nothing more than

10/6/2009 1:16:41 PM

There's a mountain of scientific data and [gasp] evidence for the Big Bang.

Produce one shred for a god.

Apples and not even oranges. Apples and Sea Lions.

[Edited on October 6, 2009 at 1:22 PM. Reason : *]

10/6/2009 1:21:20 PM

When did I once mention God?

I don't give two shits about this pathetic back and forth you losers have going about Creation and Science.

Claiming any theory as a certainty is fucking retarded and its exactly the kind of thing that brings science to a crashing halt.

10/6/2009 1:25:42 PM

Is gravity a certainty?

10/6/2009 1:27:40 PM

Evolution is a certainty.

10/6/2009 1:29:42 PM

Quote :

"Claiming any theory as a certainty is fucking retarded and its exactly the kind of thing that brings science to a crashing halt."

Perhaps we should be defining theory here. Theory in science doesn't mean the same as theory on your detective stories. A scientific theory is used as a plausible general principle or body of principles offered to explain a phenomenon. Big Bang is our current cosmological model based on available evidence.

It is perfectly acceptable to regard a scientific theory as certainty until contrary evidence is discovered. That's the best part about science. Theories can be updated, refined, and expanded as we learn more.

10/6/2009 1:39:57 PM

big bang is not a theorem

10/6/2009 1:41:13 PM

Quote :

"Is gravity a certainty?"

nope

neither is the big bang

Quote :

"It is perfectly acceptable to regard a scientific theory as certainty until contrary evidence is discovered."

Says who?

Its a working model. It is not certain in any sense of the word.

[Edited on October 6, 2009 at 1:49 PM. Reason : *]

10/6/2009 1:48:22 PM

Quote :

"Is Gravity a certainty?"

No, it is not.

Lokken and I share the same stance, but I will readily admit, I am more partial to the big bang theory answer, rather than the God answer. Nevertheless, it is a true statement that neither are conclusive, and that each have their caveats.

Gravity is a huge problem in physics, and continues to wrack the brains of the best minds in the field. It is a theory, a widely accepted working theory, but there can be no certainty with gravity, yet.

10/6/2009 1:56:53 PM

^^Says anyone who understands and accepts the concept of observation and empiricism. Big Bang is falsifiable.

[Edited on October 6, 2009 at 1:57 PM. Reason : ^^]

10/6/2009 1:57:15 PM

^^ Can we predict where Pluto is going to be 1 year, 6 months, 14 days, 5 hours and 23 seconds from now, barring any outside influence?

Certainty.

10/6/2009 2:01:50 PM

Quote :

"you can't disprove something on the basis that people are using it wrong, people use science for horrible things too but you criticize them, not the scientific method. "

You say they're using it wrong. They would say otherwise. Because the bible is open for interpretation, and it encourages flawed thinking and belief in things that are not verifiable. It is nothing like science.

Quote :

"Out of curiosity, what can you not ignore?"

I can't possibly get into all of it here. But for starters, there is the creationism movement, which seeks to disprove evolution by spreading bad science. Then there's the whole christian right which basically seeks a theocracy. There's the islamic migration into europe which demands tolerance of it's oppressive and archiac practices, while being intolerant of criticism and other religions. And so on...

10/6/2009 2:02:15 PM

^^ we certainly can predict it. we certainly could get it wrong.

If a theory is falsifiable, meaning to prove false or incorrect, then we can also treat it as a certainty, meaning free from doubt or reservation?

10/6/2009 2:06:45 PM

Quote :

"You say they're using it wrong. They would say otherwise"

the people that use science to support eugenics say otherwise too

10/6/2009 2:08:19 PM

Quote :

"Lokken and I share the same stance, but I will readily admit, I am more partial to the big bang theory answer"

Oh I am absolutely on board with the big bang explanation so far. There are just way too many unanswered questions to call it 'certain'.

10/6/2009 2:09:43 PM

^^Why are you ignoring the points I've made? Are you really trying to equate science to the bible and christianity? It should be self-evident how they are not comparable, even though I've taken the time to explain it to you.

10/6/2009 2:14:30 PM

Quote :

"Are you really trying to equate science to the bible and christianity? It should be self-evident how they are not comparable, even though I've taken the time to explain it to you."

not at all, i'm refuting your point that you can dismiss something because some people apply it wrong

10/6/2009 2:26:13 PM

Quote :

"Faith. (The quote being from a certain metal band)"

LIMP BIZKIT?!?!?!

10/6/2009 2:35:42 PM

I've never tried to dismiss anything. I don't know where you got this idea from. I have tried to show you the problems faced today from religion.

Do you really believe that the problems I listed with religion have to do with bad people? Just bad people? And it has NOTHING to do with the religion, and what it teaches and encourages people to do and think? I don't even know how to respond. You're just completely in denial and you would rather believe that all your religion does is provide good in the world.

10/6/2009 2:35:58 PM

the world has good and bad people, there are bad people that call themselves christians. this says nothing to the legitimacy of the religion

dude you are not on their level, let the other atheists take care of this

10/6/2009 2:46:07 PM

Carzak, I think what pooljobs is trying to convey is that there are many many many people who are religious and that do not "spread bad science", "seek theocracy", "demands tolerance of it's oppressive and archiac practices" and so on...

People would still be dicks without the religion there as an excuse. People have been killing each other long before religion and will continue to even after we give it up.

10/6/2009 3:01:30 PM

What about islam and their oppressive and intolerant beliefs? Are muslims just bad people? The koran says that women should be covered, and they are not allowed to sit with another man if they are married.

Are you calling creationists bad christians? Because I thought the bible was the word of god and it says the world was created 6000 years ago.

Look, whether religion is good or bad isn't the point here. I don't need to convince you. You're just in denial anyway. There are religious people out there who are destructive to human progress, and I want to do whatever I can to stop them from succeeding.

10/6/2009 3:01:43 PM

Quote :

"LIMP BIZKIT?!?!?!"

I said a Metal Band.

Limp Bizkit is not metal.

10/6/2009 3:12:21 PM

Quote :

"People would still be dicks without the religion there as an excuse. "

People would not be trying to say the world was created 6000 years ago if chrisitianity didn't exist. Women would not have to cover themselves if there was no islam.

People would still be people if there were no religion, but at least they wouldn't believe in fairy tales and magic and the supernatural because science and reason would take their place. You look at the developed world where religiousness has dwindled, and there are more people who accept evolution and the big bang. America, a strongly christian nation, has one of the lowest acceptances of those scientific theories. But I guess that's because we have more bad people in American, right?

[Edited on October 6, 2009 at 3:21 PM. Reason : .]

10/6/2009 3:19:27 PM

The band is System of a Down. google people.

^^are you talking to me? Yes creationists are bad christians because they're butting in on science where they don't belong. I'm an atheist, dude. Many many many christians are not creationist dicks.

The abolition of spiritual belief is not going to magically fix all of the conflict in the world.

[Edited on October 6, 2009 at 3:30 PM. Reason : .]

10/6/2009 3:25:09 PM

who knows where we would be without religion to help stabilize civilization.

In fact, applying the theory of natural selection to world cultures, one could easily make the argument that religion was directly responsible for the survival of those cultures in which it was predominant. Almost all world cultures have some form of religion at their center.

10/6/2009 3:27:05 PM

the big bang IS evidence of God

10/6/2009 3:31:30 PM

You are the worst troll in our known universe.

10/6/2009 3:36:16 PM

God made the mitsubishi eclipse

10/6/2009 3:50:25 PM

^now that made lol

10/6/2009 3:51:28 PM