It's kind of funny on this board I'm accused of being an anti-Semite, on another board I'm accused of being a Zionist.

Trolls, mang. Whatcha gonna do?

I'll recopy my post from the last page since nobody reads the last post:

Quote :

"Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948. Article 1 The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish. Article 2 In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. [...]"

(a) check
(b) check
(c) check

[Edited on June 22, 2010 at 10:50 AM. Reason : .]

6/22/2010 10:48:53 AM

Quote :

"on this board I'm accused of being an anti-Semite, on another board I'm accused of being a Zionist"

who says you cant be both?

6/22/2010 10:51:36 AM

It's funny how Solinari is masking his hatred of Arabs by calling us anti-Semites.

6/22/2010 10:53:08 AM

Quote :

"Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;"

Well, since the population is exploding in Gaza, the Israelis must be really incompetent at carrying out their "genocide" lol

[Edited on June 22, 2010 at 11:06 AM. Reason : it's the most unique form of genocide, ever]

6/22/2010 11:06:04 AM

Quote :

"(a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

a) so every serial killer ever is guilty of full out genocide?
b) sounds like high school
c) this is a two way street, if Palestinians weren't putting Israeli civilians in fear of rocket attacks...
d) doesn't apply considering the incredible birth rate of Palestinians
e) I've never heard Israel accused of it

I would like to reiterate that I am not defending Israel's actions or treatment of the Palestinian people, but this is NOT a genocide.

6/22/2010 11:13:36 AM

But didn't you realize that the check for genocide is like the Alcoholics Anonymous questionnaire?

If you answered "YES" to any of the questions above, you are an alcoholic evil genocidal nation.

Quote :

"I would like to reiterate that I am not defending Israel's actions or treatment of the Palestinian people, but this is NOT a genocide."

Of course not, because polite society won't allow any defense of israel nor meaningful condemnation of palestinian actions.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704198004575311011923686570.html

[Edited on June 22, 2010 at 11:20 AM. Reason : ]

6/22/2010 11:17:23 AM

bdmazur, don't be a fuckhead. You're ignoring the first part of the definition, which is "any of the following acts [b]committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, as such."

I expect this kind of bullshit from solinari but you're better than that. That serial killer line pissed me the fuck off.

That said, the very part of the definition I just quoted is the best argument against calling Israel's actions genocide. I don't think there's good evidence that they want to destroy the Palestinians as a group.

6/22/2010 12:49:26 PM

n/m

[Edited on June 22, 2010 at 3:01 PM. Reason : s]

6/22/2010 3:00:52 PM

Quote :

"I don't think there's good evidence that they want to destroy the Palestinians as a group."

Many Zionists want to destroy Palestinians as a national group, even going so far as to claim they don't exist.

6/22/2010 4:14:02 PM

The nation of Palestine does not exist. Yasser Arafat declined the offer in 2000.

6/22/2010 4:22:32 PM

Quote :

"I don't think there's good evidence that they want to destroy the Palestinians as a group."

That's the point I wanted to make. I was saying that deaths happen in a war, but there has been no attempt at wiping out the entire group. The definition says "killing members of the group." If one person kills a few Americans, are they trying to commit american genocide?

6/22/2010 11:50:42 PM

depends, is it a jew who did the killing? if so, then yea its genocide

6/22/2010 11:57:13 PM

This is old, but it contains some information that I haven't seen posted yet.

http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010-06-05/stephen-shalom-but-what-could-israel-do/

Quote :

"One side, the Israeli attackers, surely have video of the entire encounter, but have shown only selected snippets, carefully avoiding the period immediately before the troops landed on board the Mavi Marmara. The other side, those trying to break the blockade, had their cellphones and cameras confiscated ('captured' is how the IDF put it[1]), one of their websites hacked[2], and limited coverage of events. Despite this asymmetry that ought to make us extremely skeptical of the Israeli version, the clips do seem to show that the Israeli forces fired before they landed — and you can bet the IDF won’t be releasing their complete video for analysis. And as more and more passenger testimony[3] becomes available, and as autopsy results[4] show the victims shot between the eyes at point blank range, the Israeli version is more and more dubious... Israel coyly whines that if only the activists had delivered their humanitarian supplies to the Israeli port of Ashdod, Israeli [sic] would have been happy to pass on all the acceptable items to Gaza. But that of course is precisely the problem: for three years Israeli authorities had determined that basic humanitarian supplies were unacceptable. So, for example, on June 1, the World Health Organization[5] renewed its call 'to allow for the unimpeded access into the Gaza Strip of life-saving medical supplies, including equipment and medicines, as well as more effective movement of people in and out of the territory for medical training and the repair of devices needed to deliver appropriate healthcare.' The necessary equipment was available — but blocked by Israeli officials from being permitted to enter Gaza... The blockade — enforced by Israel and Egypt — was widely denounced by human rights groups (e.g., Human Rights Watch[6], Amnesty International[7], and the Israeli organizations Gisha[8] and B’Tselem[9]) UN officials (e.g. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon[10], General Assembly President Miguel D’Escoto[11], the Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs John Holmes[12], the Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, Robert Serry[13], Special Rapporteurs John Dugard[14] and Richard Falk[15]), and in two presidential statements of the European Union[16] as collective punishment — because its purpose was to change Hamas’s behavior by punishing the one and a half million civilians of Gaza, the majority of them children. Israeli officials openly boasted[17] that this was their intent, and the fact that exports are prohibited and such things as coriander and notebooks are banned from importation proves that restricting the flow of weapons was not the motivation for the blockade..."

1. http://www.latimes.com/sns-ap-ml-israel-palestinians,0,1291556,print.story
2. http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=print&link=211989&yazarAd=
3. http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/reporter-disputes-israeli-account-of-raid/?pagemode=print
4. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-activists-autopsy-results
5. http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/47d4e277b48d9d3685256ddc00612265/5cb77aa2e839149c852577350061b340?OpenDocument
6. http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/11/20/letter-olmert-stop-blockade-gaza
7. http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/feature-stories/trapped-collective-punishment-gaza-20080827
8. http://www.gisha.org/UserFiles/File/publications_english/Publications%20and%20Reports_English/Gaza%20Closure%20Defined%20Eng%281%29.pdf
9. http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/20081127_More_Sanctions_on_Gaza.asp
10. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=25388&Cr=palestin&Cr1
11. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=29056&Cr=palestin&Cr1
12. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=34863&Cr=gaza&Cr1=
13. http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/sc9341.doc.htm
14. http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/G08/402/29/PDF/G0840229.pdf?OpenElement
15. http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N08/489/88/PDF/N0848988.pdf?OpenElement
16. http://www.kvinnatillkvinna.se/the-gaza-offensive-one-year-on-no-peace-without-respect-for-international-law
17. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
18. http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010-05-07/why-wont-israel-allow-gazans-to-import-coriander/
19. http://www.gisha.org/UserFiles/File/publications/Obstruction_and_obfuscation.doc

6/23/2010 2:22:53 PM

Quote :

"That's the point I wanted to make. I was saying that deaths happen in a war, but there has been no attempt at wiping out the entire group. The definition says "killing members of the group." If one person kills a few Americans, are they trying to commit american genocide?"

Are you actually aware of the situation on the ground in Gaza? I'm wondering how you could consider the blockade anything other than Israel making a case for transfer. Not uncomfortable enough for a "humanitarian crisis" but uncomfortable enough to be truly miserable.

Musical instruments aren't allowed lmao.

6/23/2010 2:26:20 PM

why should they be allowed

6/23/2010 3:35:43 PM

Quote :

"Many Zionists want to destroy Palestinians as a national group, even going so far as to claim they don't exist."

The extent to which Palestinians are a national group is debatable -- certainly that status was dubious even under the British occupation, and it was virtually nonexistant under the Ottoman version.

That said, even if the Palestinians are a legitimate national group, no questions asked, "many Zionists" does not equate to "the Israeli government." I've no doubt that there are people in this country that want to get rid of all the blacks and Mexicans, but it's unreasonable to accuse the United States of genocide, even when those individuals pass laws that, say, make it hard for Mexicans to live in Arizona.

6/24/2010 3:02:44 AM

Quote :

"he extent to which Palestinians are a national group is debatable -- certainly that status was dubious even under the British occupation, and it was virtually nonexistant under the Ottoman version."

It's certainly more legitimate than the Israeli image as a national group, which was explicitly constructed before the eyes of the world.

Quote :

"That said, even if the Palestinians are a legitimate national group, no questions asked, "many Zionists" does not equate to "the Israeli government." I've no doubt that there are people in this country that want to get rid of all the blacks and Mexicans, but it's unreasonable to accuse the United States of genocide, even when those individuals pass laws that, say, make it hard for Mexicans to live in Arizona."

Are you going to tell me with a straight face that Israel isn't actively pursuing a transferist plan in Gaza? I don't know what to ask here other than if you're aware of the conditions on the ground in Gaza?

6/24/2010 7:19:13 AM

No one is allowed to leave gaza u fucking moron

6/24/2010 7:53:23 AM

First of all, I don't know what "transferist" means, so I can't answer one of your questions.

Quote :

"It's certainly more legitimate than the Israeli image as a national group, which was explicitly constructed before the eyes of the world."

So? Is there a rulebook somewhere that says precisely how your identity has to come about in order for it to count?

The Jews had a lot in common with each other that made them a distinct group, going back a long way. The only thing that identified Palestinians as being different from many other people in the region was that they lived in a place called "Palestine."

But really this side of the debate is pointless. The extent to which Israelis are a legitimate national group does not have any bearing on whether or not the Palestinians are a legitimate national group.

6/24/2010 1:20:55 PM

well it does if you're antisemitic and don't believe that Israel has a right to exist

Quote :

"It's certainly more legitimate than the Israeli image as a national group, which was explicitly constructed before the eyes of the world."

McDanger flirting with the idea that the nation of israel is illegitimate ITT

6/24/2010 1:42:17 PM