nah, the emails just came out today, but its been expected that pr would do this for a week or so

10/23/2006 12:04:57 PM

I'm such a limit noob.

"check, check, i bet, josh raises, amy folds, azn folds, i 3 bet, he caps, i 5 bet, he calls."

5 bet is last bet allowed, right? shouldn't that be called capping instead of 4bet?
do all casinos have 5 bet rules?

10/23/2006 12:37:46 PM

Pilgrim, my craps game may not be optimal, but I always run it like this

Bet the pass line for the min units. Throw $1 on the craps check for the come out roll ALWAYS

Once a point gets set, get at least 1 unit odds on and then bet the 6 and 8. Then, whatever the point is, I also bet that number the hard-way for $1 + $1 hard way for dealers.

After I win a point or two, I'll put $1 dealer on the line too. I am VERY good to my craps dealers.

I was staying at Excalibur for a couple days and I didn't bother getting a VIP card because I wasn't going to be playing too much. After a particularly good run at the $5 craps table, the floor manager offered me a card and a pre-proven buffet because I tip well. It was nice to get that kind of attention when you've only got $100 in front of you and the yokel to your right has a nickel out and gets nothing.

10/23/2006 12:43:51 PM

Quote :

"5 bet is last bet allowed, right? shouldn't that be called capping instead of 4bet? do all casinos have 5 bet rules?"

Generally the 4th bet is the cap because it is the last bet allowed.
Heads up most places will let you continue to raise until one of you is all in.

Not all casinos have 5 bet rules, in fact, most have 4 bet rules. Ask Pilgrim about this, he's more of a B&M limit guy than the rest of us.

10/23/2006 12:45:02 PM

I liked the play. Did your set hold up?

10/23/2006 12:47:07 PM

^ Only cause for concern is the fact that he bet the river. If he had say AK he shoulda checked and saved himself a bet, since with those pot odds you're GOING to call him.

Then again this is probably why I don't play stakes that high...

10/23/2006 1:05:18 PM

Quote :

"Apocalypse: I'm such a limit noob. "check, check, i bet, josh raises, amy folds, azn folds, i 3 bet, he caps, i 5 bet, he calls." 5 bet is last bet allowed, right? shouldn't that be called capping instead of 4bet? do all casinos have 5 bet rules?"

At the borgata there is a 3 raise maximum, hence making the 4th the "cap." However, in this instance, i misspoke, since a cap does not exist. in a limit situation where only two people speak in the action on a street, the 3-raise maximum does not apply. Since only Josh and I spoke during the betting, it is viewed as being headsup, and you can put in as many bets as youd like. Ive only seen it happen once before, but if it comes to it, after like 8 or so raises and stacking up the bets, you can both agree to an amount. this is ultra rare however, and it usually takes someone thta doesnt really know what they are doing. Hell, even this weekend i saw a straight flush over straight flush situation, and they only got to 9 bets deep

If you look for the house rules that hsould be posted at your casino of choice (which you should ALWAYS be familiar with), they will describe if they use a 3 raise or 4 raise maximum. Rarely, some casinos (i think mainly european with a sprinkling of california casinos) will use a 4 raise maximum, essentially making hte cap the 5th bet.

Say you are at borgata, the card that displays the game information blantantly says "three raise maximum unless headsup" on the table at all times.

Quote :

"bgmims: Pilgrim, my craps game may not be optimal, but I always run it like this Bet the pass line for the min units. Throw $1 on the craps check for the come out roll ALWAYS Once a point gets set, get at least 1 unit odds on and then bet the 6 and 8. Then, whatever the point is, I also bet that number the hard-way for $1 + $1 hard way for dealers. After I win a point or two, I'll put $1 dealer on the line too. I am VERY good to my craps dealers. I was staying at Excalibur for a couple days and I didn't bother getting a VIP card because I wasn't going to be playing too much. After a particularly good run at the $5 craps table, the floor manager offered me a card and a pre-proven buffet because I tip well. It was nice to get that kind of attention when you've only got $100 in front of you and the yokel to your right has a nickel out and gets nothing."

oh i know that what i entailed earlier is far from optimal, and it gets expensive fast. (like at a $10 table, thats nearly $100 in bets ont he table just to set up...) it was specifically designed for a hit'n'run type session with a high target or menial stop limit. Completely different from how id play if i was looking to party and and be there for a while.. that'd be more along the lines of what you described.

I always tip the craps dealers really well, making dealer bets and the such. i dont believe in karma, but any little bit helps =)

Quote :

"David0603:I liked the play. Did your set hold up?"

Yes, it held.

I dont know, talking to Josh about it later, I feel as if i missed a few bets, but he was marginally strong in the first place with KJ. I feel pretty certain if i c/rd on the turn he'd have folded, but a river c/r may have been optimal. missing bets like this is bad. i posted this hand b/c it was one i was thinking about later that i felt i played poorly, but dont know if in this situation id have gotten more from it had i had played it differently, so im stuck. Agaisnt other players id have c/rd the turn 85% of the time. i dont like going that deep on the flop then slowing down hard, id rather pump it up on the big streets but i was trying to induce overcalls from josh and a situation where hed put me on a drawing hand, but hten it got there. who knows.

[Edited on October 23, 2006 at 1:20 PM. Reason : e]

[Edited on October 23, 2006 at 1:22 PM. Reason : e]

10/23/2006 1:19:14 PM

Quote :

"^ Only cause for concern is the fact that he bet the river. If he had say AK he shoulda checked and saved himself a bet, since with those pot odds you're GOING to call him."

Why would he not bet the river?

Quote :

"Then again this is probably why I don't play stakes that high..."

keep in mind your ratio to live play from internet competition.

I think many good players undervalue their skill sets vs. what they expect at certain limits. take makeup makes a big difference too, i mean, youve really gotta have good table selection.

ive been in 6/12 live games that were fucking tough, and 20/40 games where half the table would get destroyed at 2/4 online.

10/23/2006 1:29:14 PM

Quote :

"Since only Josh and I spoke during the betting, it is viewed as being headsup, and you can put in as many bets as youd like."

interesting. would this depend on house rules or is this pretty much standard?

10/23/2006 1:32:09 PM

a generally accepted house rule.


in case it wasnt claer, by spoke i mean acted. since the other two in the hand made no action, they werent considered to be in the hand.

some casinos or dealers that may misunderstand will say that since the street started with more than two people with live hands, then the cap stands anyways, no matter how the action goes down.

which, isnt the case, seeing has how if you get HU preflop, there's non cap then either.

10/23/2006 1:35:07 PM

Pilgrim, is that how you've seen it done? You have to enter the street heads up to go over the cap?

I haven't played much B&M limit, so I wasn't real sure.

10/23/2006 2:35:44 PM

some casinos are like that, but not many.

i much prefer ones with the situation i described in the hand.

both of the players folded, so they basically dont count as being in the hand.

but say if amy called the first of josh's bets, but no subsequent raises, it'd still be a 3 raise cap.

since she nor the other guy did, no cap.

thats how i prefer and think it should always be.

10/23/2006 2:49:14 PM

Moi aussie

10/23/2006 3:26:52 PM

Ok another hand where it helps to know the rules.The 20/40 games at borgata are in the back, the tables lining the entryway to the high limit room, near the tournament area. the floor had decided that the sunday morning tournament turnout warranted moving our table into one of the vancant tables usually used 40/80 lhe. the 20 game is a big chip game, seeing as how you are supposed to only play with $5 chips, a few scattered $25s seem to sneak in, but its generally a 4 chip/8 chip structure.

larger (phyiscally) pot sizes are supposed to induce more action, looks better to people walking by to have guys with like 600 chips in front of them, etc. etc.

however, when you are leaving a game or coming into a game, managing such stacks can get a bit... dicey. so when they decided to pick our game up and move it to another table, youve got lots and lots and lots of chips being racked up and people trying to manage doing so in a fashion befitting a bunch of poker players who had just played straight since the day before. chaotic.

they decide that this is the last hand before we move, so everyone is racking up. im racking up while im playing, and am on the button with Tc9c. 2 callers, i limp, sb (amy) folded, bb (solid asian, new to the table after we combined 2 4 - 6 handed games). one of the callers was the original target, horrid, horrid player who over the course of the night dumped at least 10k to the table. more about this guy later.

so anyways, ive got about 4 racks worth of red chips that im stacking up and putting in for a move. (~400 $5 chips), amy and i were playing side betting games so ive also got 2 racks of whites for our stupid games. so ive got alot to mess with here. i use a stack of 8 $100 black chips as a card protector (first time i had done this during the game, just didnt want to loose track of them during everyone racking up), but my racks and the racks of everyone else are all on the table while the hand goes down, its kinda hard to see all the action.

flop comes 9s 8d 4c

bb bets, target calls, i call

turn is a the 9d

bb checks target bets, as im assembling chips to raise (which probably looks like me just putting my shit in the rack or counting my stacks), bb raises.

dealer looks over to target, then i speak up "whoa whoa, ive still got cards, and have yet to act."

(mentally: ratshit. that was what i was going to do. i know im ahead of target, but i doubt im ahead of the bb now. I can raise, and his raise is declared and hell have to 3 bet, but then target will probably drop and i am probably beat... but im huge and cant lay this down... lay it down, ben, lay it down.... lay it down and move to the next table, get a fatburger delivered since youll be in the high limit room, fuck that, i should raise, no wait, i got it....)

ask the dealer (with the floor standing right there behind him interested now that there is a bit of a mixup), that bet is binding correct?

bb now looks a bit interested...

"correct"

i just call knowing that the raise is still comming, but its not a three bet when i dont want to have to call one.

BB is forced to raise, as expected, and then target just calls, as expected. and i just call.


river pairs off the 8, bb bets, target raises, i call bb 3 bets, target calls, i call.

(target had an 8. thats why i wouldnt leave his table)

BB had 94.

him acting out of turn potentially cost him a good bit of money, and allowed me to dictate his action. that doesnt happen often, but had i not realized that his raise was binding, i probaly would have raised anyways, then been pissed when forced to call a three bet when ive GOT to be behind...

it was a means of essentially buying a river(looking for what could possibly be a necessary draw out) for a discounted price seeing as how i knew how the action would continue.

quirky.

10/23/2006 3:45:52 PM

Someone analyze this hand for me. I would like to hear any input. Thanks.

PokerStars Game #6747946650: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2006/10/24 - 00:20:16 (ET)
Table 'Liguria' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: The Hish 24 ($236.40 in chips)
Seat 2: jluoma69 ($201.25 in chips)
Seat 3: KingCarn ($193 in chips)
Seat 4: youwereright ($198 in chips)
Seat 5: skier_5 ($418.25 in chips)
Seat 6: Bamafanatic ($161.10 in chips)
youwereright: posts small blind $1
skier_5: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to The Hish 24 [Ts Js]
Bamafanatic: folds
The Hish 24: raises $4 to $6
jluoma69: folds
KingCarn: calls $6
youwereright: folds
skier_5: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [3s 5c 3d]
skier_5: checks
The Hish 24: bets $11
KingCarn: calls $11
skier_5: folds
*** TURN *** [3s 5c 3d] [9d]
The Hish 24: bets $19
KingCarn: calls $19
*** RIVER *** [3s 5c 3d 9d] [Jd]
The Hish 24: bets $25
KingCarn: raises $75 to $100
The Hish 24: calls $75
*** SHOW DOWN ***
KingCarn: shows [4d 4c] (two pair, Fours and Threes)
The Hish 24: shows [Ts Js] (two pair, Jacks and Threes)
The Hish 24 collected $276 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $279 | Rake $3
Board [3s 5c 3d 9d Jd]
Seat 1: The Hish 24 showed [Ts Js] and won ($276) with two pair, Jacks and Threes
Seat 2: jluoma69 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: KingCarn (button) showed [4d 4c] and lost with two pair, Fours and Threes
Seat 4: youwereright (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: skier_5 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Bamafanatic folded before Flop (didn't bet)

10/24/2006 12:26:38 AM

dude thought you missed the flop, he was right

thought the turn didnt help you he was right

he let you suck out on the river by playing too passive

10/24/2006 1:01:12 AM

i'm about to download full tilt pokers stuff

my friend has won like 1500 from them

10/24/2006 1:16:24 AM

^^^Poorly played by both sides. Your c-bet wasn't big enough. Your second barrel definately wasn't big enough, I usually go more than 3/4 of the pot if I think he called me light on the flop. River play was marginal at best, more often than not you're losing a big pot there, though he did possibly tip his hand with the overbet.

Mostly I just really don't like the flop and turn bets of ~60% of the pot and ~50% respectively. What are you trying to accomplish with the bets? You're obviously not value betting, and that's not nearly enough to push him out of the hand. Shit or get off the pot.

His play was even worse. He should have raised the weak flop or turn bet if he wanted to continue with his 4's. Bluff on the river makes no sense, though if I was in your spot I prolly fold because of that(one of the perils of overanalyzing a fish's play). Your blocking bet got raised, indicating great strength. His play was consistant with a trap and you have a marginal hand for this big of a pot, unless I have a good read on this guy I'm not stacking off there.




[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 1:45 AM. Reason : .]

10/24/2006 1:35:11 AM

how does a full house and a flush both win?

10/24/2006 2:18:30 AM

Thanks for the insight. I'm terrible at poker. I need to learn more from you guys. I have $300 more to donk off now. Anyone for PLO8?

10/24/2006 2:20:15 AM

i dont get it.

10/24/2006 8:41:31 AM

Quote :

"how does a full house and a flush both win?"

If this is a serious question then the answer would involve side pots.

10/24/2006 9:16:14 AM

Quote :

"Poorly played by both sides. Your c-bet wasn't big enough. Your second barrel definately wasn't big enough, I usually go more than 3/4 of the pot if I think he called me light on the flop. River play was marginal at best, more often than not you're losing a big pot there, though he did possibly tip his hand with the overbet. Mostly I just really don't like the flop and turn bets of ~60% of the pot and ~50% respectively. What are you trying to accomplish with the bets? You're obviously not value betting, and that's not nearly enough to push him out of the hand. Shit or get off the pot. His play was even worse. He should have raised the weak flop or turn bet if he wanted to continue with his 4's. Bluff on the river makes no sense, though if I was in your spot I prolly fold because of that(one of the perils of overanalyzing a fish's play). Your blocking bet got raised, indicating great strength. His play was consistant with a trap and you have a marginal hand for this big of a pot, unless I have a good read on this guy I'm not stacking off there. "

Well said. I overanalyze the fish and cost myself $Niger as well.

10/24/2006 9:19:48 AM

^ With the 4s I agree that you need to raise postflop. Gotta know where you stand, b/c the longer you wait to raise the more overcards that are bound to come out. Raising the river is always dangerious, b/c even on a bluff postflop your opponent may still have you beat when he catches that top pair on the turn/river.

10/24/2006 9:26:28 AM

His call of $19 on the turn was really bad.


He played it like a donk.

10/24/2006 9:55:39 AM

Quote :

" With the 4s I agree that you need to raise postflop. Gotta know where you stand, b/c the longer you wait to raise the more overcards that are bound to come out. "

uhm no

this is a cash game not a tournament

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 11:02 AM. Reason : .]

10/24/2006 11:00:06 AM

agreed

WTF was up with that bet on the river? Was this a value bet?

10/24/2006 11:09:07 AM

It was the much maligned "double float then riverbluff" line, do not try this at home. He may as well of had absolutely nothing the way he played the 4's. Welcome to online poker.

10/24/2006 1:08:04 PM

noid, no go on vegas.. couldnt find a flight for this weekend from phila for under $700.

RDU wasnt much cheaper.

10/24/2006 1:14:30 PM

You're dead to me.

10/24/2006 1:18:35 PM

we should figure a weekend in november though.

or december.

just cant do it thanksgiving weekend or the weekend of the 3rd.



ive been hearing about a dreamy (i think it was 15/30 or 20/40) lo8 game with a full kill from bellagio.

or being able to find any mid-low limit (15/30-30/60) omaha games at all

10/24/2006 1:22:35 PM

i have nov 6th off

I may come up to AC on the 3rd

10/24/2006 2:31:53 PM

I just booked a flight to miami for that weekend..

=\

10/24/2006 2:33:42 PM

Quote :

"PokerStars Game #6747946650: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2006/10/24 - 00:20:16 (ET) Table 'Liguria' 6-max Seat #3 is the button Seat 1: The Hish 24 ($236.40 in chips) Seat 2: jluoma69 ($201.25 in chips) Seat 3: KingCarn ($193 in chips) Seat 4: youwereright ($198 in chips) Seat 5: skier_5 ($418.25 in chips) Seat 6: Bamafanatic ($161.10 in chips) youwereright: posts small blind $1 skier_5: posts big blind $2 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to The Hish 24 [Ts Js] Bamafanatic: folds The Hish 24: raises $4 to $6 jluoma69: folds KingCarn: calls $6 youwereright: folds skier_5: calls $4 *** FLOP *** [3s 5c 3d] skier_5: checks The Hish 24: bets $11 KingCarn: calls $11 skier_5: folds *** TURN *** [3s 5c 3d] [9d] The Hish 24: bets $19 KingCarn: calls $19 *** RIVER *** [3s 5c 3d 9d] [Jd] The Hish 24: bets $25 KingCarn: raises $75 to $100 The Hish 24: calls $75 *** SHOW DOWN *** KingCarn: shows [4d 4c] (two pair, Fours and Threes) The Hish 24: shows [Ts Js] (two pair, Jacks and Threes) The Hish 24 collected $276 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $279 | Rake $3 Board [3s 5c 3d 9d Jd] Seat 1: The Hish 24 showed [Ts Js] and won ($276) with two pair, Jacks and Threes Seat 2: jluoma69 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: KingCarn (button) showed [4d 4c] and lost with two pair, Fours and Threes Seat 4: youwereright (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 5: skier_5 (big blind) folded on the Flop Seat 6: Bamafanatic folded before Flop (didn't bet)"

something is really, really bothering me about this hand, and i cant quite put my finger on it yet....

(gotta get into a cash game nl mindset.... havent been down that street in a long time)

10/24/2006 2:35:11 PM

Quote :

"something is really, really bothering me about this hand, and i cant quite put my finger on it yet...."

I think it's the fact the hish actually won....

10/24/2006 2:46:35 PM

Quote :

"" With the 4s I agree that you need to raise postflop. Gotta know where you stand, b/c the longer you wait to raise the more overcards that are bound to come out. " uhm no this is a cash game not a tournament"

Explain. Calling tells you nothing, and the next card adds another overcard. You've got the best hand (provided the opponent has J10 or something similar), so why not raise? By calling you're inviting the dude to draw out on you.

10/24/2006 8:39:21 PM

You could always fold.

10/24/2006 8:42:30 PM

^^ i dont feel like explaining this

i assume you dont play cash much

10/24/2006 10:11:05 PM

^ Not at all, don't have the patience to play cash no limit games. Eventually I get bored and do stupid things. Tournaments at least have growing antes and blinds, so the action is constantly changing as people get knocked out.

^^^ I supposed you can check/call to the river, but isn't that inviting your opponent to bet you out of the hand? Or are you supposed to call down your stack with likely 3 overcards on the board?

10/24/2006 11:00:42 PM

^^^^^ David, you still have no faith in me do you?

10/24/2006 11:14:37 PM

Certainly not after that hand

10/24/2006 11:22:01 PM

Ha, this is why I still love $5 sit and gos for fun. 2nd hand.


Full Tilt Poker Game #1145533030: $5 + $0.50 Sit & Go (7823831), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:55:50 ET - 2006/10/24
Seat 1: mizike3713 (1,290)
Seat 2: mujica (1,170)
Seat 3: hunter124 (1,500)
Seat 4: DiddyBoa (1,500)
Seat 5: BigAlKz (1,500)
Seat 6: StevensHill (1,500)
Seat 7: OhhCanada (1,500)
Seat 8: Maxthedalmatian (1,500)
Seat 9: dd13 (2,040)
mujica posts the small blind of 15
hunter124 posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to StevensHill [9c Jd]
DiddyBoa calls 30
BigAlKz folds
StevensHill calls 30
OhhCanada raises to 60
Maxthedalmatian folds
dd13 folds
mizike3713 folds
mujica calls 45
hunter124 calls 30
DiddyBoa calls 30
StevensHill calls 30
*** FLOP *** [5h Jh 9h]
mujica checks
hunter124 bets 90
DiddyBoa folds
StevensHill raises to 570
OhhCanada calls 570
mujica folds
hunter124 folds
*** TURN *** [5h Jh 9h] [6d]
StevensHill bets 870, and is all in
OhhCanada calls 870, and is all in
StevensHill shows [9c Jd]
OhhCanada shows [Ah Qc]
*** RIVER *** [5h Jh 9h 6d] [2d]
StevensHill shows two pair, Jacks and Nines
OhhCanada shows Ace Queen high
StevensHill wins the pot (3,270) with two pair, Jacks and Nines
OhhCanada stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,270 | Rake 0
Board: [5h Jh 9h 6d 2d]
Seat 1: mizike3713 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: mujica (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: hunter124 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: DiddyBoa folded on the Flop
Seat 5: BigAlKz didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: StevensHill showed [9c Jd] and won (3,270) with two pair, Jacks and Nines
Seat 7: OhhCanada showed [Ah Qc] and lost with Ace Queen high
Seat 8: Maxthedalmatian didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: dd13 didn't bet (folded)

10/25/2006 12:02:04 AM

that play works well against crappy players

plz not to use it vs someone worth a shit

10/25/2006 12:15:10 AM

Exactly my point.

10/25/2006 12:26:53 AM

I wish that time to act was included in hand histories.. that tells a lot more.

10/25/2006 8:13:44 AM

I usually use my time to act to throw my opponents off guard. A lot of times you can get a call or a fold based on it. Of course you can never use it the same way every time, but that's what makes it fun.

10/25/2006 8:34:57 AM

Quote :

"I wish that time to act was included in hand histories.. that tells a lot more."

no it doesnt.

if im 16 tabling or something, how is time to act a tell?


^i think thats putting effort into something that is totally meaningless.

i bet that 90% of the people you play couldnt give a shit how much time it takes you to bet, nor could they even recognize your differences. waste of effort that could be spent on things like putting together the story of the hand?


[Edited on October 25, 2006 at 8:41 AM. Reason : e]

10/25/2006 8:35:07 AM

ben, lets be honest. everyone here knows you never play more than 14 tables at a time.

10/25/2006 8:38:55 AM

not since my 4th monitor bonked out

10/25/2006 8:49:30 AM

^^ I think time to act CAN mean something, since that's all you have to go on besides betting pattern. Against good players I tend not to bother worrying about time to act, but bad players read into it a lot.

Bad players also do things like raising the instant it gets to them. That's a tell however you want to look at it. I've dumped would be losers and watched others get taken to the house by bad players inta-raising with AA.

10/25/2006 9:04:37 AM