13 years of race wars

7/5/2015 2:14:45 PM

Why can't we all just get along like Malik and Mike?

7/5/2015 2:24:17 PM

I'm so glad that movie flopped.

7/5/2015 3:24:53 PM

LOL, all the budget has to cover is choreography and bronzer. It literally can't flop.

7/5/2015 4:07:37 PM

haha "flop"

bj u stupid

7/5/2015 5:58:34 PM

http://www.shelbystar.com/article/20150704/NEWS/150709509

lol

7/5/2015 10:10:18 PM

I counted about 6 stars and bars on various docks and boats, on High Rock Lake, over the weekend. Shockingly, that's a lot less than I expected.

7/6/2015 8:49:02 AM

I counted only 4 rebel flags on shirts, etc. at a bluegrass festival on Saturday. I expected more, but I was happy with that low number. Though one of the shirts did say, "Try to burn this flag, asshole!"

7/6/2015 10:32:31 AM

Quote :

"http://www.vox.com/2015/7/3/8880193/history-confederate-flag "

Repost. I spotted one truck with a huge Confederate flag driving around Raleigh this weekend.

7/6/2015 10:43:09 AM

In my point of view, if you think SC if full of red neck racist ignorant fucks and the flying of the confederate flag offends you then...

LEAVE

Luckily their are 49 other states to choose from that do now fly the confederate flag at the state capital.

7/6/2015 12:33:50 PM

Quote :

"DO NOW FLY"

7/6/2015 12:38:43 PM

Quote :

"In my point of view, if you think SC if full of red neck racist ignorant fucks and the flying of the confederate flag offends you then..."

I know right? Who cares if you have a job there, just let the racists push you out!

7/6/2015 12:40:57 PM

or stop getting panties in a wod with this hyper sensitivity PC bullshit and not get offended about some hill billies flying a flag from a war they loss..

7/6/2015 1:09:10 PM

there really hasn't been anyone hypersensitive about it, it's been up for years without much fuss. a reasonable call to action that "hey, after that shooting this is probably a good time to go ahead and take this thing down, it's been inappropriate since the beginning" isn't hypersensitive

7/6/2015 1:12:42 PM

In my opinion, if you are in SC...

LEAVE.

Its fucking SC.

^ I don't think its hypersensitive, there is no way that shit should be on a government building. I think Amazon pulling it is hypersensitive though.

[Edited on July 6, 2015 at 1:16 PM. Reason : .]

7/6/2015 1:15:56 PM

If you don't have respect for others feelings, LEAVE. Go to North Korea or some other communist shit hole where that shit is acceptable.

7/6/2015 1:51:28 PM

Take the damn flag off of the government building.

As for private businesses saying "you know....this symbol offends a good portion of our customer base. Maybe i should take a proactive role in not spreading hatred or offending my customers....", let them do what they want to do to protect their brand.

7/6/2015 1:57:00 PM

Now if you want to fly it on your shitty pickup, tattoo it on your forehead, paint it on the roof of your orange car, etc enjoy. We actually prefer to know you're a racist, treasonous, moron stuck in the 1800s.

7/6/2015 2:02:46 PM

Yup.

Also, hopefully private companies and events will punish SC until they do take it down. It would be really nice to see bands not going there, conventions not going there, for shipping companies to utilize other ports, etc.

If pressure from voters won't get it down maybe financial pressure is needed. Boycotting SC business would probably be quite effective.

7/6/2015 2:04:34 PM

Yep, there are no laws prohibiting someone from standing in public with an 'I'm an idiot' sign. Nor should there be.

7/6/2015 2:06:20 PM

Quote :

"The only flag supporter to speak was Sen. Lee Bright, who briefly introduced an amendment to put the fate of the Confederate flag to a popular vote and asked the Senate to debate gay marriage, saying it was time for the church and the South "to rise up.""

First the church and government are separate entities, 2nd we all know a popular vote will split mostly down racial lines.

7/6/2015 2:08:01 PM

7/6/2015 2:36:00 PM

Quote :

"Breaking News: South Carolina Senate Votes to Remove Confederate Flag http://nyti.ms/1HILm7b "

Quote :

"COLUMBIA, S.C. — The South Carolina Senate voted Monday to remove the Confederate battle flag from the grounds of the State House. The bipartisan proposal, which emerged after last month’s massacre at a historic black church in Charleston, was approved by a 37-to-3 vote in the Republican-controlled Senate. The Senate has one remaining ratification vote, now virtually assured of success. The debate will shift to the House of Representatives, which Republicans also dominate, where the timeline for — and tenor of — the debate remains less clear. The Senate’s vote on Monday marked a resounding shift in South Carolina, where less than three weeks ago removing the Confederate battle flag from a memorial near the State House was viewed as politically impossible. The killings at Charleston’s Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, however, revived a debate that fractured the legislature about 15 years ago and yielded, at least in the Senate, quick action in the debate over a symbol revered by many whites but regarded as an offensive vestige of segregation and oppression by most blacks."

7/6/2015 4:28:55 PM

good for those hillbillies

7/6/2015 4:39:05 PM

[Edited on July 6, 2015 at 5:42 PM. Reason : v as ok i was wondering why i didnt see it here]

7/6/2015 5:27:36 PM

fake

7/6/2015 5:38:55 PM

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/local/article26547853.html

is that srsly where you get your news?

7/6/2015 5:40:08 PM

yo synapse, check out what The Donald is up to now!

http://www.theonion.com/article/trump-tells-iowa-dairy-farmers-he-has-cows-500-tim-50792

7/6/2015 5:44:15 PM

^^^^That was like a whole fake article with a link I still had to click and whatnot.

I think, for the remainder of this thread, we should all express ourselves with nothing but poignant Die Hard stills.

[Edited on July 6, 2015 at 6:14 PM. Reason : Die Hard makes sense. Is]

7/6/2015 5:45:42 PM

Quote :

" We actually prefer to know you're a racist, treasonous, moron stuck in the 1800s"

Surely we can promote equality, eliminate racism, and live in harmony with this attitude.
Considering that 57% of South Carolinians think "the flag" represents southern pride not
adjusting by race (which means a far greater % of whites believe it stands for pride), this
type of attitude just promotes deterioration of race relations.

7/6/2015 6:42:38 PM

Quote :

"Considering that 57% of South Carolinians think "the flag" represents southern pride"

Lemme see your papers data

Assuming you're citing the latest CNN poll:

Quote :

"The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism"

It also produced:

Quote :

"A majority favors removing the Confederate flag from government property that isn't part of a museum: 55% support that while 43% are opposed."

Which is obviously much more relevant than the 57%.

Predictable:

Quote :

" Among whites with a college degree, 51% say it's a symbol of pride, 41% one of racism. Among those whites who do not have a college degree, 73% say it's a sign of Southern pride, 18% racism."

7/6/2015 7:07:32 PM

Quote :

""A majority favors removing the Confederate flag from government property that isn't part of a museum: 55% support that while 43% are opposed." Which is obviously much more relevant than the 57%. "

Agreed.

The exact wording of the poll question was:

Quote :

"23. Do you, yourself, see the Confederate flag more as a symbol of Southern pride or more as a symbol of racism?"

I'm a little surprised only 25% of whites see it personally as a symbol of racism... that's a little baffling to me.

7/6/2015 7:27:47 PM

It probably doesn't help that in southern schools, they push lies into kids' heads...

7/6/2015 7:32:14 PM

"The war was about states rights"....its crazy how many people truly believe that.

7/6/2015 7:34:23 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/150-years-later-schools-are-still-a-battlefield-for-interpreting-civil-war/2015/07/05/e8fbd57e-2001-11e5-bf41-c23f5d3face1_story.html


lol, Texas is STILL trying to revise their racist past, and is pushing this academic standard on their youth. No fucking wonder people grow up confused.

[Edited on July 6, 2015 at 7:39 PM. Reason : jh]

7/6/2015 7:38:03 PM

I don't see any republican outcry about rewriting history. WTF, no wonder you have a bus full of college kids singing about hanging niggers from trees in Texas.

7/6/2015 7:42:13 PM

Quote :

"It probably doesn't help that in southern schools, they push lies into kids' heads..."

source?

I grew up in the NC and our textbooks were the exact opposite. Our books up until AP history were pretty much the "heroes from the north came down to free slaves and beat the evil confederates that were trying to rip apart the nation"

When in reality the issue was more grey and a lot of the war crimes committed by Sherman were swept under the rug.

I haven't met anyone with a pro-confederate version of US history text book.

7/6/2015 7:47:20 PM

Quote :

"When in reality the issue was more grey"

Nope. It wasn't even remotely fucking "grey"

Quote :

"The new [Confederate] Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution" - Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens 1861"

Quote :

""Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." - Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens 1861"

Quote :

""You think slavery is right and should be extended; while we think slavery is wrong and ought to be restricted. That I suppose is the rub. It certainly is the only substantial difference between us" - President Lincoln 1860"

Quote :

"[T]here are two apparent rudiments to this war. One is Slavery and the other is State Rights. But the latter is only a cover for the former. If Slavery were out of the way there would be no trouble from State Rights. The war, then, is for Slavery, and nothing else. It is an insane attempt to vindicate by arms the lordship which had been already asserted in debate. With mad-cap audacity it seeks to install this Barbarism as the truest Civilization. Slavery is declared to be the "corner-stone" of the new edifice. - Sen. Sumner"

Quote :

"While many still debate the ultimate causes of the Civil War, Pulitzer Prize-winning author James McPherson writes that, "The Civil War started because of uncompromising differences between the free and slave states over the power of the national government to prohibit slavery in the territories that had not yet become states. When Abraham Lincoln won election in 1860 as the first Republican president on a platform pledging to keep slavery out of the territories, seven slave states in the deep South seceded and formed a new nation, the Confederate States of America. The incoming Lincoln administration and most of the Northern people refused to recognize the legitimacy of secession. They feared that it would discredit democracy and create a fatal precedent that would eventually fragment the no-longer United States into several small, squabbling countries.""

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/faq

Quote :

"The primary cause of secession was slavery, especially Southern anger at the attempts by Northern antislavery political forces to block the expansion of slavery into the western territories. Southern politicians held that such restrictions on slavery would violate the principle of states' rights."

Quote :

"As a panel of historians emphasized in 2011, "while slavery and its various and multifaceted discontents were the primary cause of disunion, it was disunion itself that sparked the war."[3] States' rights was entirely a matter in regards to the protection of slavery. The issue of tariffs was so unimportant that the groups looking for some sort of compromise did not even consider it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War

Quote :

"The burning issue that led to the disruption of the union, however, was the debate over the future of slavery. That dispute led to secession, and secession brought about a war in which the Northern and Western states and territories fought to preserve the Union, and the South fought to establish Southern independence as a new confederation of states under its own constitution."

http://www.historynet.com/causes-of-the-civil-war

Quote :

"I haven't met anyone with a pro-confederate version of US history text book."

Brilliant fucking logic dude. You should probably try doing some additional research on the subject before trying to speak on it again.

7/6/2015 8:40:11 PM

Quote :

"LUCKILY THEIR ARE"

Quote :

"DO NOW FLY"

if you don't like it then giiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit out

7/6/2015 8:48:00 PM

Look at synapse with some real history up in this thread

All the points he made were valid, but there were also some, what I like to call "acute," causes of secession. These are where yes, the issue of slavery in the territories was an underlying theme, but other events were going on that placed salt in the wound.

One big one was the election of 1860. Southern states felt betrayed when Lincoln won, since he wasn't even on the ballot in many of the southern states.

7/6/2015 9:27:41 PM

My quest for appropriate Die Hard pictures yielded a real need for a Commando 2 film.

John Matrix and John McClane could solve this.

But I suspect step one is that we all cease with the historian business, as if Civil War history really matters here.

Also, if you're from around these parts, you should already have a model of the General Lee and a Confederate flag beach towel (from Wings/Eagles/Waves/whatever) that's mostly pink cause the red bled into the white when you first washed it without salt and cold water.

And, if you're still hurting for Confederate flag stuff, there's a host of gas stations between Tennessee and Alabama that got you covered. You can even pick up some adorable minstrel figurines while you're there.

7/6/2015 10:03:29 PM

^^this is the first "other reason" that actually has any weight so far

but it's worth pointing out that SC didn't even have a popular vote at all

[Edited on July 6, 2015 at 10:09 PM. Reason : .]

7/6/2015 10:09:13 PM

I wouldn't call it an "other reason." More like salt on the wound. There are more "other reasons" but it has been so long since I've really studied the Civil War that I can't speak intelligently to them.

For anybody interested, James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom is an excellent book on the Civil War. It goes over in nice detail the complicated social and economical possibilities of causes. synapse quoted McPherson above, but that quote is somewhat taken out of context when you don't read the first few chapters of that book.

7/6/2015 11:21:03 PM

^^^ then you aren't really looking very hard. It is laughable to ignore the role that tariffs played, considering that the nation's biggest existential threat prior to the civil war had been nullification, which was explicitly and solely over tariffs.

Lincoln was elected with less than 40% of the popular vote, and the Republicans essentially controlled Congress. They were pushing for a lot of changes, many of which would be detrimental to the South, and the South was powerless to stop it. And quoting Lincoln above talking about slavery is pure hogwash. He didn't give a fuck about ending slavery, and he even said as much. His concern was always about preserving the union, because the North needed the South for raw materials and food. The north basically got filthy rich off of the south and its slaves. All the while it's getting rich off of the slaves through the federally subsidized shipbuilding industries, the north is chastising the south about slavery and threatening to destroy the southern economy which had enriched the north and from which the north had been siphoning wealth.

Northern efforts to limit slavery to existing areas weren't about humanitarian concerns so much as it was about limiting the possible impact of the expected slave revolts. Northern families would sit around the dinner table and discuss with glee how many white people in the south would be killed in the slave revolts. If the north really cared about ending slavery, it would have done so immediately after the southern states seceded, but it didn't. Fuck, people from the north even came down south in multiple attempts to start slave revolts, for fuck's sake.

It's really great that we can cherry-pick quotes and ignore everything else that is going on. You'll note that no one quotes Jefferson Davis' inaugural speech where he says hardly a word about slavery. Meanwhile, we'll quote an off the cuff speech where the speaker mentions many things as the cause, and even says that the current issue de jour is slavery. But because he gets a little ahead of himself, that part is all we will quote. We'll even ignore his other speeches where he uses the word "cornerstone" but doesn't say it's slavery. I guess some cornerstones are more notable than others.

Yes, you can't ignore the role slavery played, because it was important. But ignoring everything else at play in an effort to demonize the losing side is absurd. Yes, the south was racist, but so was the north. Yes, the south had slaves, but so did the north (and that doesn't get into the wage slavery the north was engaged in at the time, either). We want to sit back and have a convenient bludgeon to attack the south with, but the dirty fact is that the north was economically and politically dominating and exploiting the south, and it had been doing so since the country was founded. It doesn't make the south "right." But ignoring all of the issues going on in an attempt at revisionist history also isn't right.

7/7/2015 12:17:58 AM

FFS. No one is reading that.

Can you repost to reddit so an actual historian in BadHistory can rip it apart?

7/7/2015 8:02:57 AM

^^ Cool story. This has to do with abunch of white trash still using a random confederate battle flag how?

7/7/2015 8:10:37 AM

Burro with a new level of stupid.

7/7/2015 8:16:03 AM

^^Looking at the scars that this country still bears from a conflict that nearly ripped it into is very relevant to the discussion of why some people still fly that flag.

One of my history professors, back when history was still primarily taught in Harrelson (I don't know where they've moved the dept) told us the story of how when he was a young boy, he was taken to his great uncle's house. I believe it was his great uncle..great something. For his family, it was a right of passage for all the young boys to go talk to this guy, and to hear the story he told. What was the story? About how when this great uncle was a little boy, a yankee soldier stopped by his house, and stole his hat. That's it. This professor is probably now in his late 60's, so it wasn't that long ago.

My point is that these wounds haven't all healed up so easily.

For Christ's sake, it's been over 150 years since PGT Beaureguard fired on Ft. Sumter, and remnants of this war still make the evening news.

7/7/2015 8:32:30 AM

Most of my relatives came over after the civil war so this is all extremely stupid to me.

Also a hat? Please.

7/7/2015 8:37:34 AM

If you're focused on the hat, you're missing the point entirely.

And if you think the Civil War's legacy is stupid, then you should just stop posting here. You can't erase the past. Shit look at England. You'd think they'd be happy that monarchs are no longer in control, but the royal family can't fart without them all getting into a tizzy over it. Why? History.

[Edited on July 7, 2015 at 8:42 AM. Reason : sadf]

7/7/2015 8:40:54 AM