What is it that you're claiming the majority doesn't want?

8/8/2009 11:08:10 PM

and the people represent 100% of those districts and they dont want it

8/8/2009 11:09:43 PM

are you turning a cold shoulder?


universal health care ... durrr ... its being rejected across the board and youre too proud to realize this

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 11:11 PM. Reason : ]

8/8/2009 11:10:17 PM

citation?

8/8/2009 11:12:47 PM

Quote :

"Fifty-two percent of 2,276 US adults surveyed online by Harris Interactive between July 9 and 13 said they were in favor of a government-run health plan, while just 30 percent were against."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hlTYMW3D6YD6cehWzTUWCJtIFe6g

Well...that took 10 seconds.

8/8/2009 11:13:46 PM

Harris Interactive?

8/8/2009 11:14:49 PM

Quote :

"# Story Highlights # CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll: Americans divided on Obama health care plans # Poll indicates 50 percent support, 45 percent oppose proposals # Results indicate it's less popular with seniors, more so with young people # Split on who should make tough calls: insurance companies or government"

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/05/health.care.poll/index.html

Beat me to it. Here's mine.


Where's TKE's proof that the people, living in their thousands of congressional districts, don't want healthcare reform?

8/8/2009 11:15:27 PM

obama is failing, grab on to all you can now, because its not going to be there in '10

8/8/2009 11:18:03 PM

don't waste your breath. when backed into a corner, ^this guy just covers his ears, and shakes his head side to side. it's the slightly more refined way of repeatedly saying "i don't hear you, i don't hear you, i don't hear you."

he's convinced himself he's right, and isn't going to listen to any "facts" or numbers. just right-winged pundits.


i'm sure his next post will read something like this:

Quote :

"and the majority doesnt want this shit, so suck it up"

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 11:19 PM. Reason : ]

8/8/2009 11:19:01 PM

Quote :

"Split on who should make tough calls: insurance companies or government""

This is so fucking sad. It really is the end isnt it.

Call me crazy but im kinda thinking me and my doctor should make the "tough calls". This seems like arguing over which end of the plunger to shove up your ass instead of figuring out a way to not do it at all.

8/8/2009 11:19:12 PM

ill let 2010 speak for me kids

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 11:21 PM. Reason : patience is a virtue]

8/8/2009 11:20:37 PM

translation: i have no substantive numbers or facts to prove my bogus claims. but i still maintain that i'm right.

8/8/2009 11:22:43 PM

^do you?

id love to see these numbers

8/8/2009 11:23:54 PM

Quote :

"# Poll indicates 50 percent support, 45 percent oppose proposals"

8/8/2009 11:25:24 PM

k, that does nothing to support

8/8/2009 11:26:42 PM

Quote :

"its being rejected across the board and youre too proud to realize this"

Quote :

"and the majority doesnt want this shit, so suck it up"

Quote :

"45 percent oppose proposals"

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/05/health.care.poll/index.html



not that i expect you to concede this fact, but for what it's worth, here it is.

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 11:32 PM. Reason : ]

8/8/2009 11:30:03 PM

couple of things fellas. These polls arent perfect and are very small samples. Trends indicate that this thing is losing steam.

However, I have not seen a poll that says the majority doesnt want this plan. Sadly, Im not sure people even know what the plan is.

8/8/2009 11:34:38 PM

dude youre drowning and grabbing on to anything close

8/8/2009 11:35:04 PM

Quote :

" Sadly, Im not sure people even know what the plan is."

8/8/2009 11:36:10 PM

Quote :

"^ huh? Employers covering healthcare (the current situation) is not a government-induced lack of competition."

How is it not? It costs your employer less money to spend $500 on buying you health care than it does for them to give you $500 to buy your own, and that is entirely due to taxes. If it were the other way around, I guarandamntee that the current situation would be insurance companies competing for customers and not businesses.

Also



Also

Quote :

"Look: if these people were yelling: "End the employer tax break!" or "More Cost-Controls!" or "Malpractice Reform!" I'd be more sympathetic."

People have been yelling this shit for years. The fact that the Democratic party, like the Republicans, don't actually listen to the people doesn't mean they haven't been yelling.

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 12:05 AM. Reason : asdf]

8/8/2009 11:38:55 PM

Quote :

"" Sadly, Im not sure people even know what the plan is.""

8/8/2009 11:41:17 PM

you should explain it ITT

8/8/2009 11:51:22 PM

Quote :

"People have been yelling this shit for years. The fact that the Democratic party, like the Republicans, don't actually listen to the people doesn't mean they haven't been yelling."

I realize that, but when the people on your side who ARE yelling are yelling about Barack Obama killing people with cerebral palsy, it's hard to not to be alarmed by their very dangerous combination of rage and their ignorance.

8/9/2009 12:19:06 AM

^^^Hey, fratty, why don't you go shop for sun visors? You are worthless to this forum.

8/9/2009 1:35:32 AM

Not a direct reply to anybody, but I felt this insightful (but imperfect) post from another forum could inject perspective into the debate:

Quote :

"this morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration. At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issed by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school. After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the department of labor and the occupational safety and health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to ny house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all it's valuables thanks to the local police department. I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forumsTWW about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right."

Between 50 and 60% of home foreclosures are due to medical bankruptcies. A large portion of those happen to people fortunate enough to have health insurance. If the insurance industry will not act, the government very well should. The general welfare of our economy depends on it.

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 3:21 AM. Reason : manufactured consent FTW]

8/9/2009 3:20:04 AM

Quote :

"it's hard to not to be alarmed by their very dangerous combination of rage and their ignorance. "

I agree. I never heard anyone say that Bush knew about 9/11. Bush actually blew up the buildings. We went to war bc he had to finish what his daddy started. Nope this is the first time ever we have seen protests with SOME outrageous statements. Its usually just the more liberal minded that have protested in the past in any numbers. Now more and more center right are getting involved.

Whining about these protests does little to justify thier point. These people have a right to a non violent protest, no matter where they came from, who suggested it, or what fing bus they got on. Protesting is patriotic when liberal minds do it, but dangerous, racist, extremist when people in "brooks brothers" suits do it? Has anyone heard of protesters being bused in to protest wars, civil rights, or immigration reform?

8/9/2009 7:39:28 AM

Quote :

"Between 50 and 60% of home foreclosures are due to medical bankruptcies. "

I wonder what the credit card debt and the savings rate was for these bankruptcies. Id bet the unexpected expense of a health care issue is the straw that broke the camels back, but thier path towards bankruptcy started long before they had a health issue for a vast majority of these people. Its just easier to be the victim and say you lost your house or went bankrupt bc of a medical problem than bc of your irresponsible actions.

As far as the "astrotruf" it appears one dem looked a bit ridiculous and quick on the trigger.

"Tensions are running so high at town hall meetings that Rep. David Scott, a Georgia Democrat, yelled at a local doctor concerned about health care after mistaking him for an "astroturf" political operative looking for a fight.

Mr. Scott became visibly agitated when one of his constituents, a practicing doctor, asked a few questions about health care reform during a town hall meeting. The meeting was held to discuss a road project, but was opened up for questions near the end. That's when Dr. David Hill stood up to speak."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/back-story/2009/aug/08/georgia-democrat-rages-against-local-doctor-over-h/

8/9/2009 8:19:42 AM

Quote :

"Id bet the unexpected expense of a health care issue is the straw that broke the camels back, but thier path towards bankruptcy started long before they had a health issue for a vast majority of these people."

What makes you think that?

8/9/2009 10:19:34 AM

Quote :

"SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.""

Gov't almost always does it more expensively too.

None of those things couldn't have been done by the private sector? Why is more gov't always the answer? Over the years we have deluded ourselves into believing that the only solutions come from Washington DC.

8/9/2009 10:37:43 AM

^ Those agencies exist b/c the private sector either couldn't or wouldn't do them. They weren't all founded in 1776.

8/9/2009 10:46:14 AM

Quote :

"why do americans have such a strong feeling of entitlement"

lol the irony is killing me

8/9/2009 11:17:03 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqD-nMpsYAY&feature=player_embedded

8/9/2009 12:05:14 PM

Quote :

"What makes you think that? "

Average consumer debt in this country is about 15k. The average medical debt for those filing is around 20k. The average wealth of a 50 yr old including home equity is less than 40k. The personal savings rate in the United States has dropped from 8% in the 1980s to just under 2% since 2000. It was actually NEGATIVE for awhile, but has been growing since the recession.

Now for credit card debt. The size of the total consumer debt grew nearly five times in size from 1980 ($355 billion) to 2001 ($1.7 trillion). Consumer debt in 2008 now stands at $2.6 trillion. From 1990 to 2000, the number of Americans seeking the help of a credit counselor doubled. The average client seeking the help of a counselor had $43,000 in debt, of which $20,000 was consumer debt and $8,500 was revolving debt.

Pretty disturbing trends.

8/9/2009 12:09:52 PM

It's hilarious watching these town hall meeting clips. Godwin's Law in real life in every meeting. Inevitably the Hitler and Nazi Germany comparisons start flying... do people REALLY believe the stuff they yell?

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 12:13 PM. Reason : x]

8/9/2009 12:13:07 PM

at some point, somebody's gonna get shot at these things... whether it be some wacko who's convinced the gas chambers are coming or a nervous police officer who gets claustrophobic because there's too much venom in the air from both sides

and then



BAM

we take this thing up another notch!

8/9/2009 12:50:40 PM

It's hilarious what monumental babies Americans are

Getting bent out of shape because we might spend money on health care instead of on extravagant military contracts

8/9/2009 12:56:43 PM

I'm sure the private sector could effectively manage our health care crisis more cheaply than the government. But the fact is that they haven't--even at this late hour, and likely will not, because it isn't profitable to do so.

Why provide a vital, but expensive service to millions who are unable to afford it? Shareholders would revolt over such an altruistic gesture, and rightly so. It would have to be mandated systemwide.

8/9/2009 1:57:22 PM

Newt Gingrich defends Sarah Palin's batshit insane statements about Obama Death Panels:

Quote :

"Newt Gingrich and Howard Dean went at it on health care this morning on This Week. Especially over Sarah Palin's claim that Obama's health care plan will create "death panels" that would encourage euthanasia. “Communal standards historically is a very dangerous concept,” Gingrich told me. “You are asking us to trust turning power over to the government, when there are clearly people in American who believe in establishing euthanasia, including selective standards.”"

http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/08/gingrich-defends-palins-death-panels-.html

When Sarah Palin says crazy shit like this, rational Republicans can write it off by saying "Oh that Sarah, she so crazy," but how high up in the party can these comments and insinuations be made before people will actually begin to rebel against their party?

8/9/2009 2:14:09 PM

Quote :

"Those agencies exist b/c the private sector either couldn't or wouldn't do them. "

Prove it.

8/9/2009 3:03:41 PM

why do you assume that people won't believe Palin is correct in her statement? Some government body will end up being responsible for deciding when health care is too expensive to provide for certain illnesses and that the person should just be left to die instead.

When you consider how much of the Democratic party is supported by younger voters, you can see why lowering the life expectancy would work well for the democratic party and probably scares the shit out of Republican party.

8/9/2009 3:11:13 PM

^^ Pick one and I'll be happy to link you to their web page, and you can read why they came into existence.

8/9/2009 3:16:50 PM

Quote :

"I'm sure the private sector could effectively manage our health care crisis more cheaply than the government. But the fact is that they haven't--even at this late hour, and likely will not, because it isn't profitable to do so."

No, they haven't done so because they have been prevented from doing so. Time and again, we hear of doctors trying to run free clinics and being shut down by the gov't. We see collusion between industry and gov't to prevent a solution. But, sure, the entity which has caused the crisis sure is the perfect one to provide the solution, right?

8/9/2009 3:39:06 PM

^ haha

you're heard "time and again" that the gov. has shut down free clinics?

lol

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 3:54 PM. Reason : ]

8/9/2009 3:53:58 PM

Quote :

"Pick one and I'll be happy to link you to their web page, and you can read why they came into existence."

Start with the first.

8/9/2009 4:15:04 PM

^ I need to explain why we regulate power company monopolies to you?

8/9/2009 4:27:12 PM

No. You need to explain why

Quote :

"...the private sector either couldn't or wouldn't..."

provide power

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 4:38 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2009 4:38:31 PM

.

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 4:41 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2009 4:40:13 PM

Quote :

"I'm sure the private sector could effectively manage our health care crisis more cheaply than the government. But the fact is that they haven't--even at this late hour, and likely will not, because it isn't profitable to do so."

State mandates and our system of employer-sponsored insurance has led to less than 12% of all expenditures being paid by the consumer (down from 50% in the '60s). With the consumer largely insulated from price changes, their is no incentive for cost/benefit analysis (e.g. there is no incentive to weigh costs when deciding whether to undergo a 23k surgery or 100k radiation therapy to treat slow-growing, early-stage prostate cancer. There is no evidence that either is more affective. Defensive medicine may lead a physician to do both with little push back from the patient)

As long as consumers do not care about the price tag, there is no incentive for any other member of the value chain to care either given prices can always be passed on to the consumer without a decrease in demand. Until consumers are more in control of their spending and thus are incentivized to assess costs, prices will continue to rise exponentially. Remove excessive state mandates and replace the subsidy for employer-provided insurance with direct deposits into health-savings accounts and we will likely see the same entrepreneurial drive from providers to lower costs as we see in all other markets where suppliers respond to price-conscious consumers.

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 4:50 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2009 4:49:10 PM

^^ Not to further derail the thread, but, well, they already provide power, so I'm not sure what you are getting at. We regulate them b/c they have monopolies and they would rape us on the rates without it.

8/9/2009 4:50:16 PM

I was getting at the absurd assertion that:

Quote :

"Those agencies exist b/c the private sector either couldn't or wouldn't do them. ""

Obviously, the private market preceded those agencies.

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 4:54 PM. Reason : ,]

8/9/2009 4:52:24 PM