Quote :

"You are the worst troll in our known universe."

Now that's a theory I think we can all agree is a certainty.

[Edited on October 6, 2009 at 4:29 PM. Reason : *]

10/6/2009 4:28:34 PM

I got to Page 5, got bored, and decided to fast forward.

I was not raised as a member of any religious faith. Mom and Dad used to goto church a long time ago, but by the time I was born they had abandoned religion.

They never tried to make me go to a church, or read any holy books.

To this day, we've never had a discussion about my faith/beliefs, or theirs, but I don't think there would be any surprises or ill feelings on either side.

10/6/2009 4:35:22 PM

d357r0y3r, just want to say good for you. It's tough to do that for some people. My parents don't care either way, even though they're religious (though very liberally so). They joke with me about it sometimes, etc, but honestly nobody in my family has ever been mean to me or treated me differently. That's probably partially because they like to pretend it isn't true, but it hasn't ever caused any issues.

10/6/2009 5:04:09 PM

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=578263

10/6/2009 5:07:53 PM

Quote :

"the world has good and bad people, there are bad people that call themselves christians. this says nothing to the legitimacy of the religion"

I'm willing to acknowledge that there are beneficial aspects about christianity and islam, mostly having to do with the placebo effect and sense of community for a couple examples. I'm not saying that they are entirely bad.

However, there are aspects to them that undeniably hinder human progress morally and intellectually. Some of those aspects make up the fundamental basis of those religions, so they do weaken their legitimacy. It is not just a matter of "bad" people interpreting things wrongly.

I will not accept these bad aspects of religion even if they come with some good. Not when they hinder and harm humanity so much more than any benefit religion may provide.

10/6/2009 8:47:19 PM

Just remembered, I actually have an on topic comment

After my parents divorced (as my mother was moving her things out no less), my grandmother told me right there that she thought it was brought on by lack of church going.

When writing cards to me, my grandparents always remember to write something about Jesus... I'm atheist. I hate being dishonest, but I really don't know what there is to gain by telling them.

10/6/2009 9:51:14 PM

You would be a man proud of who he is.

10/6/2009 10:42:37 PM

Oh god you sound like oprah telling a fattie that she's beautiful... His choice has nothing to do with being proud or not... It makes him a pragmatist and a normal person

10/6/2009 10:53:04 PM

Read through page 9 so far. He're my story: I didn't have to surprise my parents that I'm an atheist. It was obvious given that they took our family to church every week for 18 years and I never cared to join or get baptised. I don't know if my extended family noticed, but I'm not going to bring it up.

For the first few years of my life I believed in God because I didn't know any better. I think I started having doubts around middle school. My church was like the opposite of Radio Shack: you have questions, they don't have answers. Essentially it came down to faith and I didn't have any. Many days I wanted to pretend that I did so I could fit in better, but I had to stick to my principles. Even though I never "felt the presence of God", the religion still had a hold on me for several years. It took me a long time to shake off nagging thoughts that Hell existed, that original sin made sense, etc. Eventually I just recognized it as silliness.

I do have to confess that I went through that phase in college where I stayed up late at night giggling over the Proselytizer Questionnaire and dreaming that I would save the world from its misguided ways. Now atheism isn't a real priority for me and I don't care about "converting" people--partly because I know I can't, partly because I just don't care, and partly because I can't promise their life would be better without religion. I do think it's important to speak up when it affects government policy though.

Now, the best advice I have is: if you choose to argue for atheism, always argue on your level, never on their level. Arguing on your level goes like "There is no reason to believe in an intelligent superpower. Doing so raises more problems than it solves. It is not practical to believe such a thing and there are no good arguments to the contrary." Arguing on their level goes like "If God exists, (something) doesn't make sense. Therefore, God doesn't exist." They have a trump card when you argue on their level. It's "God can do anything." They don't care about contradictions. Jesus could've said "seven equals three" and it wouldn't have made a difference. You have to attack the assumption that God exists in the first place.

d357r0y3r, all of your "arsenal" was on their level. The problem of evil? Who cares? If you assume for the sake of argument that an omnipotent being runs existence, your opinion on suffering is irrelevant. You sign away your right to use logic when you make that assumption. For their arguments, call them out as what they are. Pascal's wager? Irrelevant to the truth. Inspired by God? Circular reasoning.

10/6/2009 11:31:23 PM

^ qft

10/6/2009 11:36:44 PM

^^is kinda what i was getting at with not wanting to get into theology

10/6/2009 11:38:12 PM

Theology is like philosophy except even more intellectually dubious

10/6/2009 11:41:37 PM

to believe or not to believe....

10/7/2009 12:39:07 AM

My wife was raised catholic and went to catholic school for much of elementary school. I think like many other people, she was fine with pretending she believed... until it came to confirmation, and she was supposed to spend all this extra time preparing, she cut it off there.

Although the couple catholic masses I've been to over the years were way more interesting/entertaining to me than the christian megachurch I used to go to.

[Edited on October 7, 2009 at 3:33 AM. Reason : ]

10/7/2009 3:33:07 AM

Good post, Shivan Bird. You're right that there isn't much of a point in arguing with a theist/Christian. They've basically already admitted from the get go that they believe something for no good reason. If that's the case, I'm probably not going to be able to convince them of anything. Maybe there will come a time where I decide it's a waste of effort to change anyone's mind or to make them see why their particular belief is wrong. In real life, I pretty much already have come to that conclusion. But, on TWW, I'll argue for the sake of argument and defending my position, even if that means getting into the specifics of the religion.

10/7/2009 8:45:40 AM

goddidit!

10/7/2009 9:16:05 AM

Quote :

""You are the worst troll in our known universe.""

exactly, because i'm not a troll at all. you're just a coward.

10/7/2009 10:16:07 AM

We had my grandfather's funeral last week. He and my grandmother were members of the same Presbyterian church for 70 years, had raised my parents to go to church every sunday and had probably given tens of thousands of dollars to the church over the course of their lifetime.

The memorial service was at the same church, and my grandmother asked the pastor for a non-religious eulogy! Turns out neither of them were believers. However, they did believe in the value of spirituality and the Presbyterian church.

The pastor was super-cool about it. He gave a very moving Eulogy without invoking Jesus or the Bible. He did quote the Hobbit at one point!

10/7/2009 10:21:57 AM

^ they had to keep their appearance up...

10/7/2009 5:43:00 PM

k

to add to this thread

while riding to Augusta today with my boss he starts talking about god and all that.. eventually asks me if i believe in god, i say no not really.. he says that if i believe in isaac newton and aristotle and other people that history talks about then i have to believe in jesus/god/blah blah blah because it was all recorded in the same way.

i didn't even know how to argue with that.

10/8/2009 3:23:43 PM

Isaac Newton actually believed in God. He even tried to mathematically decipher the end of the world, in the year 2060. Pretty wild, isn't it, for a man of science?

[Edited on October 8, 2009 at 3:39 PM. Reason : -]

10/8/2009 3:24:57 PM

^it's not that crazy. not all aspects of math/science contradict religion so clearly. and he lived a long time ago, long before darwin.

i've seen creationist propaganda type videos where they rattle off a list of famous scientists who believed in god (pasteur, newton, faraday, kepler) but they all lived before darwin's discoveries.

10/8/2009 5:22:54 PM

You forgot Albert Einstein.

10/8/2009 10:06:56 PM

Ha, right. This is why it's important to come up with a coherent definition of God, rather than just assuming that, like other words in english language, it has a similar definition for most people that use the word. Let's look at some possible definitions, based on what I've gathered:

-A supreme being that created everything, controls everything, knows everything, hears our prayers, and adjusts the world based on those prayers
-A supreme being that created everything and put the universe into motion, hears our prayers, but doesn't interfere
-A supreme being that created everything, but we know nothing about
-Synonymous with the unseen mechanics of the universe that we don't yet understand, but nevertheless are responsible for the events that manifest in the real world

And there are certainly other valid definitions. The "God" that Einstein could be said to believe in is the final definition. That God has very little in common with the first definition, which many Christians today believe in.

10/9/2009 9:36:48 AM

Einstein didn't believe in God.

10/9/2009 9:39:09 AM

Quote :

"while riding to Augusta today with my boss he starts talking about god and all that.. eventually asks me if i believe in god, i say no not really.. he says that if i believe in isaac newton and aristotle and other people that history talks about then i have to believe in jesus/god/blah blah blah because it was all recorded in the same way."

Ask him about unicorns, leprechauns, the loch ness monster, aliens, chuds, vampires, werewolves, and any number of stupid fantastical bullshit thats ever been written down on paper or passed down through oral tradition.

Surely you have to believe in Ra, since it was written down long before your bible was written. Or maybe the Sumerian moon god Nanna.

I'd respond to that shit by talking to HR about the conversation documenting it in some way that won't make people hate you so if they ever thought about firing you you could get them on religious discrimination. How fucking stupid does a boss have to be to bring up religion to one of their subordinates?

[Edited on October 9, 2009 at 9:46 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2009 9:43:27 AM

^^Yeah, but you can obviously take quotes of his that make it seem like he does. That's why it helps to clarify what he was talking about.

I suspect that many scientists that are theists, or deists, are driven more by social pressure to conform than a desire to explain the unexplainable. No scientist that stayed true to the scientific method could use God as an explanation for anything. If they did, it would be purely on the basis of conjecture. I don't care that there are many intelligent scientists that claim to believe in God...they're ultimately making an argument based on faith, which I can throw out as a legitimate argument immediately.

[Edited on October 9, 2009 at 9:48 AM. Reason : ]

10/9/2009 9:47:06 AM

That's not exactly a difficult task, saying that believing in God cannot be proven through the scientific method, any simpleton can understand that. The more compelling point is that these brilliant men of science, that constructed the cornerstones of understanding the natural world through physics, did believe in God. For whatever reason, that, is far more profound, than any naysayer shooting fish in a barrel.

10/9/2009 10:07:06 AM

Yes but they also lived in a time where you were burned alive for being a witch.

10/9/2009 10:20:04 AM

Interestingly enough, the human experience involves quite a few dynamics. You might be surprised to find out that scientists are not robots, in fact, but have complex lives just like the rest of us humans. A lot of them even love another person, which is a completely illogical situation to put oneself into and can not be defined or defended with sound arguments.

To summarize, scientists have emotions...

[Edited on October 9, 2009 at 2:56 PM. Reason : s]

10/9/2009 2:56:01 PM

In fact, the man the proposed the Big Bang Theory was a Catholic priest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

10/9/2009 3:11:57 PM

This should be food for thought for the anti-theists. A lot of their adamant reasoning and logic are based upon the findings which came from individuals that they would in turn, ridicule. How wonderfully ironic.

10/9/2009 3:44:22 PM

Mine is based on the fact that there has been absolutely 0 evidence for the existence of a god. Whatever theories or facts that men have found through science based on logic and reasoning, I accept. Their personal beliefs that are based outside of that realm are worthy of ridicule.

A lot of smart people have a lot of ridiculous ideas.

[Edited on October 9, 2009 at 3:56 PM. Reason : *]

10/9/2009 3:55:49 PM

Knowing this doesn't change my mind about theism. I understand the social and philosophical reasons why people embrace religion.

Just because Lemaître couldn't deal with his mortality doesn't mean he wasn't a brilliant scientist.

10/9/2009 3:55:52 PM

^^^^BBT, I love that show!

10/10/2009 12:27:46 AM

Quote :

"I'd respond to that shit by talking to HR about the conversation documenting it in some way that won't make people hate you so if they ever thought about firing you you could get them on religious discrimination. How fucking stupid does a boss have to be to bring up religion to one of their subordinates?"

See people like you are one of the biggest problems in society. I have already said that I am pretty much an agnostic. I don't see any direct evidence that there is a God, or at least one that Christians talk about in church. On the other hand, to deny the possibility of an omnipotent being, even the one described by Christianity, even exists..... well that would be plain arrogance and stupidity.

I obviously wasn't there to witness the conversation, but it doesn't sound like the boss was out of line at all. If his employee felt uncomfortable with the subject matter and asked to not have the conversation, then the boss continued, then that would have been incredibly inappropriate and cause for a formal complaint. But just because a conversation occurs about religion or politics or race or whatever is the controversial "soup of the day" doesn't mean it is inappropriate. If you are immediately going to throw the harrassment or inappropriate flag as soon as the word "God" is uttered than you are no better than the people who throw their religion in your face by blasting Jesus music or putting religious pictures up everywhere.

10/10/2009 10:31:34 AM

Quote :

"to deny the possibility of an omnipotent being, even the one described by Christianity, even exists..... well that would be plain arrogance and stupidity."

Just curious - which one described by Christianity? There are several.


The one who created man on The sixth day, along with eve, according to Genesis 1:27-31, or the one who created him in Genesis 2:7, then created eve separately from his rib?

The one who showed up to wrestle with Abraham in human form, or the one who appeared to moses as a burning bush?

Yahweh or Elohim?

10/10/2009 10:50:10 AM

christian doctrine would say that they are all the same... their god has many names. come on... you have to know this....

the level of complete ignorance from people who run around debunking the bible is just embarrassing.

[Edited on October 10, 2009 at 10:56 AM. Reason : s]

10/10/2009 10:55:31 AM

Quote :

"On the other hand, to deny the possibility of an omnipotent being, even the one described by Christianity, even exists..... well that would be plain arrogance and stupidity."

I have a teapot I'd like to tell you about...

10/10/2009 11:03:23 AM

Quote :

"I have a teapot I'd like to tell you about..."

I am sure you are trying to be clever and witty here but I have no idea what you are talking about.

10/10/2009 11:12:20 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Quote :

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

[Edited on October 10, 2009 at 11:16 AM. Reason : ]

10/10/2009 11:16:03 AM

thxu

10/10/2009 11:18:58 AM

How did the universe that this teapot is in come into existence?

10/10/2009 11:30:37 AM

That's pretty irrelevant to what we're discussing here.

10/10/2009 11:40:40 AM

If an entity created the universe, is it not also plausible that they may be a china teapot in orbit around the sun? If man were of consequence of some accident, then there would be no particulars as to why there would be a teapot there. Belief isn't wholly rational in an empirical sense, but isn't terribly unsound either.

10/10/2009 11:46:37 AM

Quote :

"If man were of consequence of some accident, then there would be no particulars as to why there would be a teapot there."

This isn't a strike against the teapot. There is no particular reason why God should exist in the first place.

Anyway, the point is FeebleMinded says it's stupid and arrogant to deny the possibility of God. Is it? Only if we also then say it's stupid and arrogant to deny the possibility of the teapot, the flying spaghetti monster, the invisible pink unicorn, that the universe was created last Thursday...

10/10/2009 11:57:12 AM

yea but the teapot doesn't have a bible that proves its existence

10/10/2009 11:58:25 AM

Why again is it stupid to deny the existence of this teapot?

10/10/2009 11:59:01 AM

^I don't know. Ask FeebleMinded.

Quote :

"yea but the teapot doesn't have a bible that proves its existence"

shit, you got me

10/10/2009 12:02:01 PM

its hard to argue with infallible arguments

10/10/2009 12:02:39 PM