^^ that's from an Adobe Flash evangelist's blog post crying about Apple not adding Flash to the iPad.. I guess he thought it only professional to include a screenshot of Bang Bros.

1/31/2010 12:37:43 PM

Quote :

"Having your own very talented design team doing SoC designs gives you a leg up on HTC, for example, who may not have the resources or margins to pay for a custom SoC with only the features they want."

Paying for a custom SoC is a very expensive proposition... It is usually so expensive that the goal is to get that chip into as many sockets as physically possible. Here, Apple is incurring ALL of the cost of SoC development with only a single customer (themselves).

Quote :

"they have that flexibility."

And they will pay for it... dearly. I am not convinced at all that the cost savings of not printing a 1080p decoder is worth the cost/risk associated with using an entire design team to spin a whole new chip.

Quote :

"With apple raking in billions a quarter, the best thing to do would be to just roll their own."

Well, that's obviously what Steve Jobs thought also... The question I have is, why? Why is rolling your own chip the best thing to do? What happens if sales drop off? Then you've got a huge fixed cost of the chip design team and manufacturing costs for each new chip you design. What if their design team F's up like Nvidia's team is f-ing up now?? How many millions of dollars is Nvidia hemorrhaging for every month that their Fermi team slips schedule? And that is Nvidias CORE business!! (no pun intended). Apple doesn't have to design processors... To apple, a processor should be a commodity, in my opinion.

Quote :

"they bought PA Semi for $278 million..... that's chump change. That's 38 hours worth of revenue from last quarter. Apple as $40 Billion in the bank. Even if this somehow doesn't work out, it's hardly going to bring them down"

Who cares what they bought PA Semi for. They could have bought them for $1 and I still wouldn't understand it. The costs and risks will come later when they're designing new chips in new technologies. Again, like I just said - take a look at what's going on with Nvidia's design team. They have been falling on their face for a little over a year now with nothing to show for it. Is it really worth it for Apple to risk that kind of situation just so they can have slightly increased control over their own features and schedule?

Which brings me to my next point...

Quote :

"i don't see what's so hard to understand about Apple wanting to be completely in charge of the chips that will run their phones and portables, instead of being reliant on someone else's technology and release schedules."

To a certain extent, this is true, but on the flip side - I guarantee you that every other processor group (Atom, Tegra, etc) is rushing their parts out as fast as possible... No one is sandbagging their schedules... Just because Apple owns PA Semi now doesn't mean they're going to be able to dictate features/schedules to such a degree that it would mitigate the financial risk. I mean, they'll be able to certainly crack the whip somewhat more than usual, but sometimes things just take as long as they take and no amount of ownership can really change that fact.

Basically my point boils down to this. I don't see any benefit listed that would make up for the costs if PA Semi pulled the stunts that Nvidia has pulled over the past couple of years (Fermi issue, and ball solder joints).

You think that a marginal improvement in schedule and feature ownership makes this worth the risk? I don't see it. Remember, they only have one customer. If that customer's sales drop off - then what?! Even worse, if PA Semi fucks up and their sales drop off... then what?


[Edited on January 31, 2010 at 12:44 PM. Reason : s]

1/31/2010 12:38:07 PM

consider Microsoft and Sony's latest dives into console making... they lost money, literally for years. i'm not saying Apple's moves are all the best thing ever, but they may be looking into the long term on this one. they won't have me sold on this iPad deal on the first revision, since it is missing a few things i'd like to see. however, i wouldn't be surprised if i ended up buying 2.0 in a couple years

1/31/2010 12:40:57 PM

I'm sure the next version of iPad will be nice... Probably include a camera, widescreen, multi-tasking etc.

Hell, I'd bet that multi-tasking will even come sooner to the 1st gen with a future OS update.

1/31/2010 12:45:49 PM

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/01/29/apple_to_target_ipad_at_business_users_through_new_features_sources.html

Quote :

"Sources who talked to Apple's business unit also say the company is working on some additional features that haven't been publicly announced yet. These include support for direct network printing from iPad apps, as well as support for accessing shared files from a local file server. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote :

"Paying for a custom SoC is a very expensive proposition... It is usually so expensive that the goal is to get that chip into as many sockets as physically possible. Here, Apple is incurring ALL of the cost of SoC development with only a single customer (themselves). ... And they will pay for it... dearly. I am not convinced at all that the cost savings of not printing a 1080p decoder is worth the cost/risk associated with using an entire design team to spin a whole new chip. "

Apple gas sold 250,000,000 iPods, somewhere around 40 million iPhones/iPod Touches. They have the volume to make SoC very affordable.

And 1080p will be added in time. It's far from necessary considering that cable TV systems don't do 1080p yet.

Quote :

"Well, that's obviously what Steve Jobs thought also... The question I have is, why? Why is rolling your own chip the best thing to do? What happens if sales drop off? Then you've got a huge fixed cost of the chip design team and manufacturing costs for each new chip you design. What if their design team F's up like Nvidia's team is f-ing up now?? How many millions of dollars is Nvidia hemorrhaging for every month that their Fermi team slips schedule? And that is Nvidias CORE business!! (no pun intended). Apple doesn't have to design processors... To apple, a processor should be a commodity, in my opinion. "

It's extremely unlikely sales of iPhones/iPods will drop off. The iPad is a risk, but considering how Apple's devices have been selling, they have no reason to be timid with their strategy. But, you should start your own electronics company, and run it without taking risks or trying to stand out, and let's see how it works out for you...

Quote :

"You think that a marginal improvement in schedule and feature ownership makes this worth the risk? I don't see it. Remember, they only have one customer. If that customer's sales drop off - then what?! Even worse, if PA Semi fucks up and their sales drop off... then what? "

You have to break an egg to make an omelet. The most revolutionary companies don't get that way by being pussies.

[Edited on January 31, 2010 at 1:23 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on January 31, 2010 at 1:24 PM. Reason : ]

1/31/2010 1:15:14 PM

I understand that risks are necessary, but it would also be risky for Steve Jobs to try to develop and sell a space rocket for Mars exploration.

Not all risks are equal. I am trying to figure out where the payoff is for developing their own chips. At this point, the only thing I'm hearing is that they can control in a very limited sense what their price, schedule, and features are.

Doesn't seem worth it to me. The cost savings could be very quickly wiped out if they had to do any design revisions. The schedule/feature point seems very weak - they can only accelerate a schedule so much and there's a limit to the feature set on any chip.

[Edited on January 31, 2010 at 2:09 PM. Reason : s]

1/31/2010 2:06:26 PM

There is practically nothing known about the A4 right now. Beyond the speculation that Apple/PASemi has done something that no one else is doing, there's really no way to know definitively at this point what all of the factors were...

But Apple isn't a dumb company, and neither is Jobs, so i think it's very reasonable to assume that there is something different about the A4. Evidenced that the iPad can do 10 hours of 720p video playback, in a 1.5lb, 9.7" screen package.

1/31/2010 2:08:44 PM

I will say that is pretty good.

[Edited on January 31, 2010 at 2:14 PM. Reason : s]

1/31/2010 2:11:21 PM

Quote :

"^^ that's from an Adobe Flash evangelist's blog post crying about Apple not adding Flash to the iPad.. I guess he thought it only professional to include a screenshot of Bang Bros."

yeah, and he failed to find out what the iPhone-specific versions of thsoe webpages looked like (i.e. if you actually visited that site on Mobile Safari), or take into accounts free Apps the sites offer. If you did that, there are only 2 sites that actually don't load. Here's what the rest look like

1/31/2010 4:50:46 PM

^ a full third of those "it works" screenshots are of the app store. lame.

resorting to filler images weakens his point.

1/31/2010 5:14:36 PM

I'm interpreting the market share posted as the current, and not cumulative, or quarterly *sales* breakdowns, in which case I believe Apple is ahead by a fair margin, hence the (cumulative) market share goes up considerably every quarter.

1/31/2010 9:40:24 PM

RIM has about a 2-1 advantage in subscribers (current users)

http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?art_aid=120085&fa=Articles.showArticle

[Edited on January 31, 2010 at 11:27 PM. Reason : .]

1/31/2010 11:18:05 PM

Fake Steve Jobs throws his his two cents about the iPod Jumbo.

1/31/2010 11:54:13 PM

in addition to sitting on the couch, its good for sitting on the can!

2/1/2010 12:23:06 AM

^^^ could have something to do with one or more of the following....
1) Blackberries come in about 10 models with dozens of configurations
2) they are on pretty much all carriers
3) businesses by them by the hundred to distribute to managers


w/r/t #2, the iPhone will be unstoppable for the consumer smartphone market share when they expand to Verizon

2/1/2010 1:33:58 AM

Quote :

"1) Blackberries come in about 10 models with dozens of configurations 2) they are on pretty much all carriers"

uh so are Android phones...

iPhone will not take over, a) they should have been on verizon a long time ago, b) they still aren't on verizon and because apple won't leave AT&T, android is getting a big foot in the door.

2/1/2010 2:12:33 AM

just talked to a friend who's an engineer. his manager got a team all iPhones to work in the field, guess what, none of them have signal. terrible experiment, they're all getting replaced with RIM phones

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 2:14 AM. Reason : .]

2/1/2010 2:12:33 AM

for perspective:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=500

2/1/2010 2:15:46 AM

Quote :

"uh so are Android phones... iPhone will not take over, a) they should have been on verizon a long time ago, b) they still aren't on verizon and because apple won't leave AT&T, android is getting a big foot in the door."

I don't know why nobody can wrap their head around the fact that any carrier that has the demand of the iPhone exclusively will see the same performance as AT&T.

That being said AT&T only has data issues in densely populated iPhone areas such as football games, Manhattan, etc.

apart from that AT&T has great service...I don't know why anybody would expect the iPhone to work in areas where AT&T doesn't have coverage...i mean its not 'magical'.

Also, android sucks and its foot in any door is getting stomped on. The day Google wraps its head around design and user experience, THEN maybe we'll start to see something serious from them in terms of phones. It seems like most of the people that go on and on about android also feel the same way about Linux and any google product. Its the whole apple fanboi bullshit in reverse.

Quote :

"just talked to a friend who's an engineer. his manager got a team all iPhones to work in the field, guess what, none of them have signal. terrible experiment, they're all getting replaced with RIM phones"

You could have saved your friend a lot of 'experimenting' by asking him to plot on an AT&T service map where this 'field' work takes place.

Also one would hope they're intelligent enough to know its the service provider so getting a RIM phone on the same carrier is just as retarded.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 2:46 AM. Reason : asdf]

2/1/2010 2:42:57 AM

^^lol took me a minute to get what i was looking at then i saw the time stamp

2/1/2010 2:49:44 AM

Sorry

Android doesn't suck and I fucking hate Linux and Apple.

I own an iPhone though

2/1/2010 9:15:48 AM

Quote :

"none of them have signal. terrible experiment, they're all getting replaced with RIM phones"

lol. BRILLIANT. He's gonna end up getting more complaints now.

2/1/2010 9:24:43 AM

Quote :

"uh so are Android phones... "

I was responding to why RIM has such a large market share. I wasn't claiming that meeting those 3 criteria would give you a large share automatically, as evidenced by Android's performance so far

2/1/2010 9:57:15 AM

Quote :

"b) they still aren't on verizon and because apple won't leave AT&T, android is getting a big foot in the door."

It’s not that Apple won’t leave ATT. If you remember, Apple signed an exclusivity agreement with ATT back in the days, to get ATT to make changes to their network to support the iPhone (most notable visual voicemail, and online at home phone activation). Apple is still bound by this agreement.

Notice that the iPad ISN’T bound to AT&T like the iPhone is. That’s because the iPad wasn’t under this agreement.



[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 10:06 AM. Reason : ]

2/1/2010 10:05:00 AM

Also Apple says its current hardware in over 83 countries. What makes you think it would be a good business decision to develop a completely different phone chipset (CDMA) just for 1 carrier. Its not like they're hurting for sales. Sure not making CDMA phones was a terrible decision for Sony Ericsson but Apple isn't in the same situation at all.

Also, Verizon didn't want to play fair when Apple approached them about the iPhone before AT&T got it. Verizon is still stuck in the old way of thinking where the carrier dictates to the developer what phones they want with what features.

Quote :

"Android doesn't suck and I fucking hate Linux and Apple."

I'm sorry that I'm not aboard the Google bandwagon and think everything they do is godmode.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 10:55 AM. Reason : .]

2/1/2010 10:54:04 AM

I was very excited about the DROID, have spent more than 10 mins playing with one on multiple occasions now, but it feels too clunky and thrown together. An avid fan of Google (and a good friend) is suggesting the Nexus is better, and I'd love to try one out, but I am currently skeptical.

I'd actually be interested in opinions from someone who's actually owned both for more than a few days, but I'll keep that off this topic.

Anyway, it is amazing to read that linked site about the reception the original iPod had. It's almost exactly what we're looking at today w/the iPad...

2/1/2010 11:06:49 AM

Quote :

"It’s not that Apple won’t leave ATT...Apple is still bound by this agreement."

this is purely your assumption. if you ask the general consensus it's WELL assumed that their exclusively contract has ended or "resigned" and that AT&T has promised Apple they'll upgrade their network if Apple chooses to stay with them.... no exclusivity contract lasts this long without being revised or resigned.... they have their chance, it's that they won't take it.

Quote :

"Notice that the iPad ISN’T bound to AT&T like the iPhone is"

not sure what press-conference you were watching. if you want 3G on the iPad, so far it has to be with AT&T. READ THE NEWS, even unlocked iPads CANNOT use T-mobile's 3G network.

Quote :

"develop a completely different phone chipset (CDMA) just for 1 carrier."

i think you forgot Sprint.

Top four providers in the US:
CDMA = Verizon, Sprint
GSM = AT&T, T-mobile

right below them, all CDMA networks:
Cricket, U.S. Celluar, Virgin

Quote :

"I'm sorry that I'm not aboard the Google bandwagon and think everything they do is godmode."

same could be said about the Apple bandwagon.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 11:27 AM. Reason : .]

2/1/2010 11:26:18 AM

all the ipad needs is a good marketing campaign and the fucker will sell like hotcakes to hobos for a penny

2/1/2010 11:30:12 AM

Quote :

"I don't know why nobody can wrap their head around the fact that any carrier that has the demand of the iPhone exclusively will see the same performance as AT&T."

you obviously need to read about the network differences. Verizon has the better network by FAAAR, not even close. iPhone users also forget Verizon has twice the number of smart phones on their network and it's performing great so far. we don't get dropped calls, everyone has signal, and everyone has acceptable bandwidth. granted if you're standing 10 feet east of 22nd street with winds at 20mph you might get better speed on AT&T in a metro area, but speed doesn't equal quality.

Quote :

"Also, android sucks and its foot in any door is getting stomped on."

this statement is hilarious. you didn't follow CES either did you.

Quote :

"Its the whole apple fanboi bullshit in reverse."

yea, that must be it. it's open-source, it's non-proprietary, runs on multiple devices, multiple carriers... no it can't be the fact that they are actually giving people a CHOICE that's behind their success... it must be FANBOI'S!!!!

Quote :

"You could have saved your friend a lot of 'experimenting' by asking him to plot on an AT&T service map where this 'field' work takes place. Also one would hope they're intelligent enough to know its the service provider so getting a RIM phone on the same carrier is just as retarded."

they switched carriers to use RIM on Verizon (which is what the rest of his company uses) so they could actually USE 3G, i wasn't involved in any of sort of the discussion, he told me this all after the fact.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 11:42 AM. Reason : ,]

2/1/2010 11:39:22 AM

Quote :

"I was very excited about the DROID, have spent more than 10 mins playing with one on multiple occasions now, but it feels too clunky and thrown together. An avid fan of Google (and a good friend) is suggesting the Nexus is better, and I'd love to try one out, but I am currently skeptical. "

The N1 has it's own problems. Just look at the google help forums and the tech blogs. Most of the problems seem to be tmobile related though and the clusterfuck of confusion on who supports what. I've had the droid for a couple weeks and love it. Feels solid and runs great.

2/1/2010 11:47:27 AM

I thought this was hilarious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZS8HqOGTbA

2/1/2010 12:39:43 PM

^Haha, whoa...

2/1/2010 12:57:57 PM

Quote :

"I'm sorry that I'm not aboard the GoogleApple bandwagon and think everything they do is godmode."

I mean really, that's the statement you go with?

I am in no way on the Google bandwagon, but I do like Android, and I do like the Droid. Their platform has some very nice things going for it.

2/1/2010 2:21:52 PM

Quote :

"i think you forgot Sprint. Top four providers in the US: CDMA = Verizon, Sprint GSM = AT&T, T-mobile right below them, all CDMA networks: Cricket, U.S. Celluar, Virgin"

I think you forgot the point. Apple is thinking GLOBAL. Why make a whole new set of devices just to sell on old tech when the rest of the world is on GSM? AT&T, T-Mobile are the only carriers with half a brain in this country.

Quote :

"not sure what press-conference you were watching. if you want 3G on the iPad, so far it has to be with AT&T. READ THE NEWS, even unlocked iPads CANNOT use T-mobile's 3G network."

Probably the one Apple was giving. They only mentioned AT&T data plans pricing for the iPad but then said you can put any GSM 3G sim card in the device and roll with it.

Quote :

"same could be said about the Apple bandwagon."

The thing about apple is they know UI and UX. I can't think of one google device or web app that was designed with UI/UX in mind.

Quote :

"you obviously need to read about the network differences. Verizon has the better network by FAAAR, not even close. iPhone users also forget Verizon has twice the number of smart phones on their network and it's performing great so far. we don't get dropped calls, everyone has signal, and everyone has acceptable bandwidth. granted if you're standing 10 feet east of 22nd street with winds at 20mph you might get better speed on AT&T in a metro area, but speed doesn't equal quality."

I think you are very very confused. Verizon has a more wide spread network. Twice the number of smart phones doesn't mean shit because that still doesn't touch the data demand iPhones put out. iPhones took the whole smart phone concept and got people to actually use the 3g/WiFi features of their phone and not just for checking email and sending Blackberry messages. My point still stands that if this were reversed Verizon would be in the shitter in terms of service and we'd all be wishing we were on AT&T. Regardless, both AT&T and Verizon suck in comparison to other global carries.

Also, Verizon does get dropped calls all the time, I would know because I spent less then a year on their shitty service before switching back.

Quote :

"this statement is hilarious. you didn't follow CES either did you."

yes I did, I didn't see anything game changing either...but maybe my head wasn't far enough up googles ass.

Quote :

"yea, that must be it. it's open-source, it's non-proprietary, runs on multiple devices, multiple carriers... no it can't be the fact that they are actually giving people a CHOICE that's behind their success... it must be FANBOI'S!!!!"

Why do I care about open-source as a non-developer? Also, open-source just translates into the potential of a already poor UI becoming even worse. Also, the whole 'runs on multiple devices' is a joke. Make one device thats worth a damn rather than 10 devices that suck. Also, what success are you talking about? Apple has one device out on the market yet is still the most successful. hmmm....

Also, how is Apple not giving you a choice? You either buy their phone or you don't.

2/1/2010 2:27:23 PM

^^^^That's pretty hilarious. I'm going to say again Verizon sucks and so does CDMA. CDMA coverage sucks outside the US. Not to mention it's slow as balls. Using the ipad on AT&T would not only be twice as fast as Verizon but unlocked you could use it most places in the world.

Quote :

"granted if you're standing 10 feet east of 22nd street with winds at 20mph you might get better speed on AT&T in a metro area, but speed doesn't equal quality."

Well yes I'm sorry for most people it does. AT&T covers most Americans with 3G and that's all they care about. If you're not in a 3G area quit complaining and switch to Verizon. The people who are in a 3G area get twice the speeds, and sucks for you when you travel anywhere outside the US.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 2:34 PM. Reason : s]

2/1/2010 2:30:22 PM

Quote :

"CDMA coverage sucks outside the US."

is non existent...in 90% of the world.

2/1/2010 2:32:59 PM

Quote :

"Also, the whole 'runs on multiple devices' is a joke. Make one device thats worth a damn rather than 10 devices that suck."

Um. No. I like choice and I like good competition between companies that causes the prices remain low, otherwise a company will just charge whatever we'll pay. That's called economics, and while I enjoy spending money for things I want, I don't enjoy just tossing it to the wind because a company set an arbitrary and un-challenged price point.

Further, I'm perfectly happy giving credit where credit is due for something that is innovative and forward thinking. Creating a closed software device stifles innovation and research. I can understand it when they are trying to protect trade secrets, granted, but they are doing it for the greed, so that all applications go through one single point of sale. I do understand this is economics too, but damn, is there only 1 bookstore chain, or 1 fuel chain, or 1 grocery chain?

Wake up. Apple doesn't care about you, just what's in your pockets. So quit speaking of them as if they are some sort of benevolent company.

2/1/2010 2:43:20 PM

Quote :

"Um. No. I like choice and I like good competition between companies that causes the prices remain low, otherwise a company will just charge whatever we'll pay. That's called economics, and while I enjoy spending money for things I want, I don't enjoy just tossing it to the wind because a company set an arbitrary and un-challenged price point. Further, I'm perfectly happy giving credit where credit is due for something that is innovative and forward thinking. Creating a closed software device stifles innovation and research. I can understand it when they are trying to protect trade secrets, granted, but they are doing it for the greed, so that all applications go through one single point of sale. I do understand this is economics too, but damn, is there only 1 bookstore chain, or 1 fuel chain, or 1 grocery chain? Wake up. Apple doesn't care about you, just what's in your pockets. So quit speaking of them as if they are some sort of benevolent company."

What part of 'you have a choice' did you not understand? Don't buy an iPhone if it sucks so much. Apple has always been about usability which is why you can't customize their OS (Mac OS or iPhone OS), it remains consistent for everyone and improves the overall experience. Only nerds bicker about stupid shit like that.

Also the iPhone doesn't prevent competition between companies. Not sure where you're getting that from, I suppose its more of the usual apple hate bandwagon *shrug*

Quote :

"Further, I'm perfectly happy giving credit where credit is due for something that is innovative and forward thinking. Creating a closed software device stifles innovation and research. I can understand it when they are trying to protect trade secrets, granted, but they are doing it for the greed, so that all applications go through one single point of sale. I do understand this is economics too, but damn, is there only 1 bookstore chain, or 1 fuel chain, or 1 grocery chain?"

This logic is completely flawed. You are under the assumption that Apple is the make all be all of devices and now all the other forms of buying e-books etc have gone out the window. If I own an iPad/iPhone I don't need 100 different ways to buy the same damn app. WTF sense does that make? The app store isn't V-Cast. Its only unique to one set of devices not every device on the carrier. Again, if you don't like it don't buy it. Free country and all.

Quote :

"Wake up. Apple doesn't care about you, just what's in your pockets. So quit speaking of them as if they are some sort of benevolent company"

lol? Name me one company that does CARE about me and not whats in my pocket? WTF are you smoking. The only thing I care about is the products I spend my money on, I could care less about loyalty to the company that makes them.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 2:55 PM. Reason : .]

2/1/2010 2:55:13 PM

^^ You make a very good point. Completely agree in regard to open source and variety, but I've used both Android and the iPhone a bunch and the iPhone just works better. More apps, much more fluid, easier to use, faster so that's what I use. There's a reason the iPhone has the majority of the smartphone market. It just works.

and yes i'm sure Apple doesn't care AT ALL about what its customers think.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 2:56 PM. Reason : ^]

2/1/2010 2:55:38 PM

It's always amusing to see Apple release a new product and then watch Gloveco get all frothed up when every other person on the planet doesn't immediately jizz their shorts at the thought of owning it.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 3:18 PM. Reason : "oh noes! someone said something bad about Apple products, don't worry Steve Jobs, I'll defend you"]

2/1/2010 3:15:57 PM

^I wasn't 'jizzing my pants' about the iPad numbnuts.

Its also amusing to see people go out of their way to hate on a product then go out and buy it *shrug*

2/1/2010 3:21:11 PM

Quote :

"What part of 'you have a choice' did you not understand? Don't buy an iPhone if it sucks so much. Apple has always been about usability which is why you can't customize their OS (Mac OS or iPhone OS), it remains consistent for everyone and improves the overall experience. Only nerds bicker about stupid shit like that."

I never said I couldn't buy another device, and I never said the iPhone sucks. Reading comprehension: learn it. I was refuting your comment about not needing "10 devices that suck" and saying that choice is good.

By the way, saying "consistent for everyone and improves the overall experience" ... really? So you're telling me that everyone should just be happy with the user interface that Apple devised because, well, they SAY it's the best? Again, it comes down to choice. And to be honest, while I am a HUGE fan of Apple hardware, I have never been a fan of Apple's interfaces; sure they're pretty, but not my preferred. A lot like buying a car, or a piece of hiking gear, I fully analyze the different options and purchase what works best for me. That's called being a good consumer.

By the way, was that comment about nerds bickering supposed to be an insult? Haha, ok whatever

Quote :

"Also the iPhone doesn't prevent competition between companies. Not sure where you're getting that from, I suppose its more of the usual apple hate bandwagon *shrug*"

Right, because ANYtime someone says something not completely praising Apple, it's "the usual apple hate bandwagon" ... and hey, you were telling someone else to remove their head from a company's ass, how about you check where yours might be first? Do you have any objectivity in your opinion, or is it really slanted entirely toward a single company?

Quote :

"This logic is completely flawed. You are under the assumption that Apple is the make all be all of devices and now all the other forms of buying e-books etc have gone out the window. If I own an iPad/iPhone I don't need 100 different ways to buy the same damn app. WTF sense does that make? The app store isn't V-Cast. Its only unique to one set of devices not every device on the carrier. Again, if you don't like it don't buy it. Free country and all."

My logic is not flawed. I never made the "assumption" you said I made, but if I did then go ahead and show me where I said that.

Tell me then, why don't you need more than 1 way to buy an app--or as you said so exaggeratedly, "100 different ways"? Where's the competition in having 1 point of sale? Who drives the prices? Why should Apple be the gatekeeper for any app I want to install on MY device? It is ridiculous to force me to "jailbreak" my phone just to install custom software. And further, how about rejecting the Google Voice app or various other apps? Or refusing to allow Flash? They could have allowed any of these developers access to their platform, and they could make it so that only "nerds" like me would know to access a "Developer App Store" ... but they don't. It's their world, like it or ... well, use something else if you don't like it.

Quote :

"lol? Name me one company that does CARE about me and not whats in my pocket? WTF are you smoking. The only thing I care about is the products I spend my money on, I could care less about loyalty to the company that makes them."

I agree. There really isn't a single company that cares about you. That was my insulting point--that you so deftly ignored and deflected.

2/1/2010 3:31:38 PM

Quote :

"Creating a closed software device stifles innovation and research. I can understand it when they are trying to protect trade secrets, granted, but they are doing it for the greed, so that all applications go through one single point of sale. I do understand this is economics too, but damn, is there only 1 bookstore chain, or 1 fuel chain, or 1 grocery chain? "

I actually like this as a consumer. In fact, the only person it really hurts is the software developer whom I don't really care about. The iPhone market is so big that it would be a miniscule population of developers who declined to develop just because they have to release through the app store. I'm happy to have any additional costs passed to me.

Furthermore, it only costs $100 to be approved to release apps - and if you look at the quality of apps, there's obviously nothing "stifling" the market... Just based on the number of horrible crappy ones, its obvious that just about any app will get approved.

Now, I know you will bring up the whole VOIP/SMS thing, but if that was your point you should've just said it. VOIP/SMS hardly qualifies for a blanket, "stifles innovation and research" claim. This is going away now anyway now that Apple is allowing VOIP over 3g.

A final point - the "open" android market recently hosted an app that phished people's bank accounts. As I said, I feel perfectly ok with paying a slight premium for a sanitized market.

Quote :

"Or refusing to allow Flash?"

ROFLMAO... No one's refusing flash.... Notice that Droid doesn't "allow" flash either lol... It's very difficult to get it to run on the mobile processors.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 3:41 PM. Reason : ;]

2/1/2010 3:33:39 PM

Quote :

"I never said I couldn't buy another device, and I never said the iPhone sucks. Reading comprehension: learn it. I was refuting your comment about not needing "10 devices that suck" and saying that choice is good. By the way, saying "consistent for everyone and improves the overall experience" ... really? So you're telling me that everyone should just be happy with the user interface that Apple devised because, well, they SAY it's the best? Again, it comes down to choice. And to be honest, while I am a HUGE fan of Apple hardware, I have never been a fan of Apple's interfaces; sure they're pretty, but not my preferred. A lot like buying a car, or a piece of hiking gear, I fully analyze the different options and purchase what works best for me. That's called being a good consumer. By the way, was that comment about nerds bickering supposed to be an insult? Haha, ok whatever"

Android is on so many different devices yet not one does something really well. My point, that you missed again, was that make one product that does something really well and then branch out if thats your end goal. Don't over saturate the market right off the bat with crap that tries to do everything but ends up doing nothing well.

"By the way, was that comment about nerds bickering supposed to be an insult? Haha, ok whatever" - no, thats just our nature. We want full control and the ability to completely tare shit apart and customize it. The average joe does not care about that nor does he have the ability to do so if he did care.

You just don't get the whole UI/UX bit so I won't waste our time.

Quote :

"My logic is not flawed. I never made the "assumption" you said I made, but if I did then go ahead and show me where I said that. Tell me then, why don't you need more than 1 way to buy an app--or as you said so exaggeratedly, "100 different ways"? Where's the competition in having 1 point of sale? Who drives the prices? Why should Apple be the gatekeeper for any app I want to install on MY device? It is ridiculous to force me to "jailbreak" my phone just to install custom software. And further, how about rejecting the Google Voice app or various other apps? Or refusing to allow Flash? They could have allowed any of these developers access to their platform, and they could make it so that only "nerds" like me would know to access a "Developer App Store" ... but they don't. It's their world, like it or ... well, use something else if you don't like it."

but you did with your whole 1 gas station, 1 book store, bit. Just because Apple choses to sell its books through 1 app and music through 1 app doesn't mean that everyone has to follow. Also, it doesn't mean that you have to buy the device that only lets you buy from that one store. Microsoft does this as well.

Yes, why do i need multiple ways to buy the same apps? Developers decide the prices so whats your point? Apple isn't in the 'custom software' business. If thats what you want buy an open source device. You really just sound ridiculous wasting your time bickering about this shit when you said it yourself. Apple doesn't care about you, only whats in your pocket. Best solution for you is not to buy an Apple product if it doesn't do what you expect it to do.

You are in the minority, people like you don't drive sales so why should any company waste time catering to your every need?

Quote :

"I agree. There really isn't a single company that cares about you. That was my insulting point--that you so deftly ignored and deflected."

My mistake, I didn't realize you were trying to make a point. Thought you were just being captain obvious

2/1/2010 3:45:56 PM

you guys crack me up, you're more concerned about traveling outside the U.S. than you are about traveling in the U.S. you back up AT&T saying they have 3G in a majority of places where people live/work, but did you ever stop to think about the places you use 3G the most? yes, it's OUTSIDE where you live/work and i'd venture a bet most people travel domestically more-so than internationally.

Quote :

"There's a reason the iPhone has the majority of the smartphone market. It just works. "

Again, the iPhone is not the smartphone leader, RIM is. And there's a reason why they are the majority. They just work.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 3:49 PM. Reason : ,]

2/1/2010 3:46:59 PM

Quote :

"in the U.S. you back up AT&T saying they have 3G in a majority of places where people live/work, but did you ever stop to think about the places you use 3G the most? yes, it's OUTSIDE where you live/work "

Did you just contradict yourself? AT&T covers most places where people live and work, and the most places I use 3g are ALSO the places I live and work. When I travel domestically i'm usually driving or flying. The prior pandora works just fine on edge, and the later i can't use my phone anyway. I rarely if ever go to a town that doesn't have 3g, and when i'm driving in between 3g spots I'm not going to be trying to browse the web while i'm driving.

Quote :

"Again, the iPhone is not the smartphone leader, RIM is. And there's a reason why they are the majority. They just work."

Rim is ahead of the iPhone by barely anything now. It was 40%/30% in September. Don't know what it is now.



[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 3:54 PM. Reason : s]

2/1/2010 3:50:10 PM

Quote :

"you guys crack me up, you're more concerned about traveling outside the U.S. than you are about traveling in the U.S. you back up AT&T saying they have 3G in a majority of places where people live/work, but did you ever stop to think about the places you use 3G the most? yes, it's OUTSIDE where you live/work and i'd venture a bet most people travel domestically more-so than internationally."

I travel internationally as much as I do domestically. Everywhere I've traveled domestically I've had AT&T service. When I'm using 3G its fast. Also, I use 3G the most in the city where I live/work, how does this not make sense to you? I'm in my home town more then I'm not? Unless you are on vacation more then you are not or you are required to travel for your job, I don't see how most aren't in their home town more then not.

Quote :

"Again, the iPhone is not the smartphone leader, RIM is. And there's a reason why they are the majority. They just work."

lol? Guess again. In fact this point was already covered in this thread so you don't really have to search too hard.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 3:52 PM. Reason : .]

2/1/2010 3:51:48 PM

most of my travel is for leisure not business, and using edge? that's not 3G

2/1/2010 3:54:12 PM

Quote :

"ROFLMAO... No one's refusing flash.... Notice that Droid doesn't "allow" flash either lol... It's very difficult to get it to run on the mobile processors."

I think you've been missing some press releases for the last year.

Adobe has created Flash 10.1 for various smartphone OSes: Blackberry, WebOS, Android, etc ... why not the iPhone, because Apple won't give them access.

It's totally possible and is being done.

2/1/2010 3:55:52 PM

^^I don't know about you, but i rarely travel to the middle of no where on leisure. Any town/city in the US is covered with 3G on at&t, and that's usually where i'm traveling too.

^no one says they haven't been developing flash 10.1 for iphone 4.0. It's just sucked before 10.1 on all mobile devices. There's a reason Apple hasn't added support for it yet.

[Edited on February 1, 2010 at 3:59 PM. Reason : s]

2/1/2010 3:56:39 PM