2lb trigger on the glock? cause thats just silly. 1911 i could see more because you have safeties not on the trigger and can decock if you absolutely needed to. stock triggers on glocks arent that heavy though. but im like some of yall, i couldnt have a trigger that broke when i touched it lightly, i need something to give at least a little tactile feedback.

3/20/2008 6:38:26 PM

Quote :

"I don't think it matters, personally. Finger shouldn't be on the trigger unless you're ready to do some shooting, in which case, who cares what the pull is. "

That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen. Personally, none of my carry guns will have ANY modifications that some idiot can try to use against me by saying that I made it too easy to shoot or some other idiocy.


[Edited on March 20, 2008 at 6:53 PM. Reason : o]

3/20/2008 6:52:26 PM

Quote :

"I don't think it matters, personally. Finger shouldn't be on the trigger unless you're ready to do some shooting, in which case, who cares what the pull is."

I wholeheartedly agree with this in principle. The problem is, that unconsiously, humans feel for that trigger as a means of reassurance. There have been several studies done (I can't remember any off the top of my head, I'll try and hunt them down) that have shown that between 60 and 70% of cops, in a simulator, not even real life, will feel for the trigger during the exercise.


Also, dave421 is absolutely correct. They'll confiscate your firearm as evidence and a prosecutor will use any modifications you've done to your firearm as evidence against you. And remember, you're not going to be tried by a jury of gunsmiths. Most, if not all, of the jurors will never have shot a gun. Night sights, grip enhancement, maybe a reliability package; but I wouldn't touch the safetys and I wouldn't touch the trigger.

3/21/2008 6:16:01 AM

Quote :

"That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen. Personally, none of my carry guns will have ANY modifications that some idiot can try to use against me by saying that I made it too easy to shoot or some other idiocy."

People say that, but I have yet to see one instance where someone was actually sued for such a thing. Granted, it *could* happen, but so could a lot of other shit. I don't modify mine, but I just don't see a real issue.

Quote :

" The problem is, that unconsiously, humans feel for that trigger as a means of reassurance. "

Comes down to training. If you need the heavy trigger, then by all means, keep it. If you can watch your trigger discipline at all times, do whatever.

[Edited on March 21, 2008 at 10:01 AM. Reason : +]

3/21/2008 10:00:48 AM

Quote :

"Comes down to training."

Less than you might think. Soldiers, Marines, LEOs are all trained extensively to keep their finger off the trigger until it is time to shoot. But, human nature being what it is, it still kicks in and people seek out that trigger as a source of reassurance. When the adrenaline is pumping, your fine motor skills go out the window and you might not be able to feel the difference between feeling for the trigger and squeezing it.

For those reasons, and the implications that could be brought up in civil court, even if you beat the criminal rap, I still wouldn't recommend significantly modifying a trigger.

3/21/2008 10:35:00 AM

Quote :

"People say that, but I have yet to see one instance where someone was actually sued for such a thing. Granted, it *could* happen, but so could a lot of other shit. I don't modify mine, but I just don't see a real issue."

I can't remember the name now but in one of Mas Ayoob's books he talks about many cases where he's been called in as an expert witness. He talked about a few cases where modifications were made and were used as the basis of the prosecution's case. He also discussed some cases where reloads were used and the prosecution did the same thing "Standard ammunition wasn't good enough for you so you had to make something more deadly" type of BS. I'll see if I can dig the book out and look some of them up. It may not be common but I'm not going to give any "ammo" to someone trying to demonize my actions should it ever come to that.

3/21/2008 10:38:36 AM

Quote :

"When it comes to a personal defense weapon, I couldn't agree more. I don't understand the guys who brag about a 2 lbs trigger on their carry 1911 (or Glock in this case)."

No 2 lb trigger here, but both of my Glocks (one of which I carry often) have 3.5 lb trigger connectors. The gun is still as safe as it was with the factory trigger, and it's much easier to shoot well. The 3.5 lb connectors are actually a factory Glock part, they come standard in the long-barreled G17 target variant.
As for someone who might be on the wrong end of my gun, they ended up there for a reason and I'm not overly concerned about their safety. If I have to defend my life with a gun, my goal is to end the threat as quickly and safely as possible. I'll worry about what the jury says later.

3/21/2008 11:16:30 AM

A++ thread. would read again.

3/21/2008 2:40:30 PM

3/21/2008 7:47:30 PM

In case anybody is in the market I got this tonight in my email, save over $120 or so it says.

Quote :

"New from SIG SAUER® is the P239 CCP (concealed carry package) in 9mm or .40 S&W calibers. The P239 is used by law enforcement and federal agents as a compact back-up pistol ideal for off duty concealed carry. The slim profile of this single-stack pistol provides easy concealment without sacrificing handling. The excellent handling characteristics of the P239 are the result of engineering we call "performance ergonomics" and it’s one of the keys to all SIG SAUER pistols. The 239CCP comes with your choice of 9mm or .40 S&W with SIGLITE® Night Sights, SIG SAUER paddle holster, SIG SAUER double mag pouch, and three (3) P239 magazines. Offered for a limited time only. See your SIG dealer today! "

http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerService/documents/P239CCP-08c.pdf

3/21/2008 9:27:55 PM

shouldn't it be called the open carry package?

i'm not a fan of only 8+1 rounds in a gun unless it's an older one.

[Edited on March 21, 2008 at 9:33 PM. Reason : i'll stick to my hk.]

3/21/2008 9:29:24 PM

so who on here has owned a 1911 other than the springfield. i kind of want to start looking, but want to know more options so that i can figure out which brands are more reliable/better to shoot (which i guess would have to include springfield to be fair). not necessarily wild about spending $texas on a wilson combat or something like that, but kimber or something comparable, maybe with a few different options for models/sizes, etc. also does anyone carry a 1911, im not really big on the idea of buying a gun if it wont see anything but the inside of a safe.

3/23/2008 8:25:09 PM

Quote :

""New from SIG SAUER® is the P239 CCP (concealed carry package) in 9mm or .40 S&W calibers. The P239 is used by law enforcement and federal agents as a compact back-up pistol ideal for off duty concealed carry. The slim profile of this single-stack pistol provides easy concealment without sacrificing handling. The excellent handling characteristics of the P239 are the result of engineering we call "performance ergonomics" and it’s one of the keys to all SIG SAUER pistols. The 239CCP comes with your choice of 9mm or .40 S&W with SIGLITE® Night Sights, SIG SAUER paddle holster, SIG SAUER double mag pouch, and three (3) P239 magazines. Offered for a limited time only. See your SIG dealer today! ""

I wonder why they don't offer it in .357 SIG?

3/24/2008 10:26:12 PM

Bought this tonight!
Ruger Red Hawk in .44 mag


Gonna try it out tommorow

3/24/2008 10:39:26 PM

^ time to go bear hunting, dirty harry style.

^^

dunno, seems like they would want to offer it in all the flavors.

i looked at the pictures. why are they calling it concealed carry, when the mag pouches and paddle holster is made to be worn on the outside?

[Edited on March 24, 2008 at 11:51 PM. Reason : d]

3/24/2008 11:51:13 PM

Sooo... what are y'alls opinion on the CZ-75/85 in 9mm, after doing alot of reading I'm considering one:
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=41

3/25/2008 1:20:21 AM

^^ A lot of people use OWB holsters to conceal carry. They just always have an untucked shirt, jacket, or vest on. Won't work for me and I don't really care for it but a lot of people do do it that way.

3/25/2008 6:35:33 AM

BTW there's a new gun shop in Cary Gunner's Alley http://www.gunnersalley.com/ that's located across the street from the Train Station and Pure Gold. Went by there yesterday and while they're still doing some move in, they have a lot to offer and some super nice guys working over there. Went by yesterday at work and talked to them for a while. Just FYI

3/25/2008 9:44:56 AM

Anyone have any thoughts on the Springfield XD .45 vs a HK .45 usp?

3/25/2008 6:11:03 PM

There's really no comparison. They're both .45s & polymer. Otherwise there's not many similarities (unless you're looking at the LEM trigger at least). The HK is going to be a nicer pistol with a better trigger. It's also going to be CAPABLE of more accuracy. That being said, for some reason, I just can't shoot an HK. Other than the grip checkering being sharper than I would prefer, I love the guns but for some reason, I just can't group worth a damn with them. My daily carry is an XD (my third) and they're great guns. There's really no downside to them, especially since you can now get a thumb safety on the .45s if that's something you want (personally I don't but...).

Definitely check out Lawman's if you're interested in both. If you don't mind used they have just gotten a bunch of USP45 Compacts (Series 1 trigger if I recall correctly). I think they're running $550 and they were all in very good condition. Since they're LE guns, they probably haven't been shot much either. They're also the cheapest around on the XDs. I just picked up my XD9 Service with NS for $470-ish from them the weekend before last. That's less than most places charge for the regular XD with standard sights. It's one of the few guns that they can still sell to civilians there (Glock, Sig, and S&W have restricted them to LE only sales).

3/25/2008 6:25:27 PM

The .44 was alot of fun. Not nearly as much recoil as I thought there would be. I think that my P239 / .357 SIG has more pop to it than the Ruger. Of course the Ruger weighs at least 3 pounds.

I also had the chance to shoot a Ruger Mini 14 today. I liked it better than any of the AR's I have shot. Very comfortable to shoot as well as accurate.

Another friend brought his new Seiga(sp?) 12 ga along. That was really alot of fun. It cycles crazy fast and even more fun with the 10 round mags.

Great day to be outside shooting.

3/25/2008 6:37:13 PM

Redhawk, coool. I have a Super Redhawk in 480 Ruger. It's a fun gun.

Quote :

"Sooo... what are y'alls opinion on the CZ-75/85 in 9mm, after doing alot of reading I'm considering one:"

Rent one if you can.
They're known to have very good accuracy and great ergonomics at a good price.
I've never shot one but have handled a few.
If I was going to buy another service pistol (which won't be for a very looong time) it would probably be a CZ-75B or D. They fit my hand real well.

Quote :

"Anyone have any thoughts on the Springfield XD .45 vs a HK .45 usp?"

If you've gotta have the best then get the USP. Fit, finish, and trigger are nicer.
But, IMO I'd get the XD and call it good. The USP's grip feels a lot bigger than an XD. The 9mm USP grips feel bigger than the XD45 grips...
The XD is gonna be at least $200 cheaper too.

Quote :

"so who on here has owned a 1911 other than the springfield. i kind of want to start looking, but want to know more options so that i can figure out which brands are more reliable/better to shoot "

No one's replied to that, probably because there's a huge number of brands, models, and options.
If you want a 1911 with the basic "nice" features then get a Springfield Loaded in whichever finish you think is prettiest.
The Loaded and Kimber Custom II are competitors. The Kimber will cost a few dollars more and the mainspring housing is plastic vs steel in the Springfield. But, the Springfield's ejector will be glued in place vs pinned like every other 1911. Every other feature/attribute will be comparable.
Springfield's customer service is better.
One thing to note, the Kimber IIs have internal firing pin blocks, thus aren't true to the real 1911 design. Based on that alone I'd get the Springfield. Many gunsmiths prefer to do custom build on Springfield frames because they're supposedly machined to more consistant specs.

I own a Rock Island Armory 1911 Tactical. It's comparable to the Loaded and Custom II in features and is only around $450. The fit and finish isn't bad, but there are a few things that needed to be tweaked by a competent owner, gunsmith, or the factory.
If you have the money then go ahead and get a Springfield or Kimber. Those two are really the only game in town for a basic, nice featured, good quality 1911 for a decent price.

Taurus makes a 1911 that's around $100 less than a Springfield or Kimber. IMO they're fugly and reports of Taurus' customer service would keep me away from that gun.
Sig makes really nice looking 1911...but they're still plagued with problems even after being on the market for a few years...and they cost more too.

S&W makes nice 1911s that have few problems. But, their extractors are thin external things that don't hold true to the 1911 design. Nice guns...just not for me.

Colt...I'd just skip Colt all together. You pay a premium for the name and don't get any features to go with it. You can get a higher end Springfield or Kimiber for the price of a Colt.

The best thing to do is look online at the different models, then go and rent some.
1911s that appear similar may handle very differently depending on how undercut the trigger guards are and what type of beavertail they have.

[Edited on March 25, 2008 at 8:07 PM. Reason : ]

3/25/2008 8:03:19 PM

wilson combats pretty proud of their stuff, but the cqb, and cqb elite are both really nice guns.

3/25/2008 9:15:03 PM

Anyone interested in taking Ayoob's Judicious Use of Deadly Force or Stressfire class?

JUDF is in greensboro, Stressfire is in Dunn.

I wanted to take All of the Lethal Force Institute classes, but they are crazy far away.

3/25/2008 10:42:06 PM

here's my AR... spent way to much money building this, but it sure is sexy looking.




AR15 (5.56):
-Cavalry Arms Mid-length Upper w/ Troy Industries RAS and tan rail covers.
-Vertical Grip
-Rock River Arms lower
-Magpul MIAD (basic) Grip
-LMT Tactical rear sight (chopped carry handle rear site)
-EOtec 512 (revision F)
-Tan Israeli Infantry issue sling
-Phantom Flash Hider
-3 Mags (2 with magpul followers)
-6-position collapsible stock

3/25/2008 11:56:09 PM

Cool.
Too much rail and gizmos for me, but still cool.

Now all you need is an airbrush and Duracoat or Gunkote to make all the metal match.
Then it'd be real sexy

3/26/2008 12:00:06 AM

Quote :

"Too much rail and gizmos for me, but still cool. "

3/26/2008 6:26:28 AM

yeah I don't know why it turned out like that in the pics... in person all the black looks right.

3/26/2008 8:31:08 AM

Quote :

"BTW there's a new gun shop in Cary Gunner's Alley http://www.gunnersalley.com/ that's located across the street from the Train Station and Pure Gold. Went by there yesterday and while they're still doing some move in, they have a lot to offer and some super nice guys working over there. Went by yesterday at work and talked to them for a while. Just FYI"

They've been around as a holster shop for a long time - I've purchased two or three from them. Are they converting into a full gun store?

3/26/2008 8:44:02 AM

Quote :

"They've been around as a holster shop for a long time - I've purchased two or three from them. Are they converting into a full gun store?"

Yes. I've talked to the owners on a couple of occasions. Nice guys.

3/26/2008 8:57:22 AM

finally got in my Nightforce scope..NXS 12-42x56...bitch took like a year to get in but its all good cause the reason is that most were going to the military...can't wait to sight it in on the M82A1 at about 300 yards

3/26/2008 1:35:22 PM

Apparently someone makes $texas...

3/26/2008 1:46:36 PM

well considering i ordered it in feb 07, its only been about $150/month for the scope

3/26/2008 2:51:47 PM

hey i got a friend back home that has a hardon for ak-47...he says they are literally the perfect designed gun, and they can even be shot underwater...is it really the perfectly designed weapon? i kept trying to ask him ways they could make it better and hes like they literally couldnt design it any better

3/26/2008 3:06:12 PM

a number of well made durable guns can be submerged in water, pulled out, and basically work fine...probably AKs and Glocks, among others (common)

i'm not so sure about guns that could be FIRED underwater...maybe a spear gun

3/26/2008 3:08:49 PM

I wouldn't pull the trigger on any gun underwater.
Think about it...water in the bore makes for one large obstruction.

Is the AK perfectly designed?
No.
The safety is awkward, the sights suck, and the accuracy sucks.
Is it a great design? Sure. They're more durable, more resistant to malfunctions, and cheaper to produce than other guns.
You can't really improve the AK though. You just have to start from scratch or use a different platform.

Some people think gas piston ARs are the perfect gun. The same great ergos and accuracy of an AR but with the reliability of a gas piston system (as found on AKs).
There are also the Sig 55X guns, G3s, AR-180B, etc that can equally claim they're the best.

I don't think there really is a best...

3/26/2008 3:46:26 PM

I'm a fan of the Kentucky Squirrel Rifle myself . . .


Whats that old saw:
"The AK-47 has killed more people than the M-16 ever will."
"Yeah, but most of the people killed by AK-47s were holding them too."


Either way, it might intersest you to know that General Kalashnikov has come out with his own Vodka: http://www.kalashnikovvodka.com/usa/

3/26/2008 4:39:40 PM

so 1947, is that what the 47 in AK-47 stands for?

3/26/2008 6:16:59 PM

Yeah.

Much like the Springfield 1903, Colt 1911, Winchester Model 94 (1894), etc.

3/26/2008 7:01:20 PM

"If an AK can't hit it, an AR can't kill it"

3/26/2008 7:30:16 PM

^^yeah i figured the year was it, but im talking about the description that the vodka bottle gave.

like was that the reason he made the gun in that year.

seems like 1947 was a pretty big year.

3/26/2008 9:28:18 PM

WTH, i thought this was the MRI thread. hah

[Edited on March 26, 2008 at 9:40 PM. Reason : ]

3/26/2008 9:29:50 PM

^^^ Ironically the issue with the 5.56 platforms right now is over-penetration at close range. Most of the combat in Iraq, and a large amount in Afghanistan is done at distances where standard ball ammunition goes completely through your average Afghani or Iraqi fighter without expanding or "tumbling". At somewhat further ranges (100m - 200m) it becomes more effective before dropping off again around 300m. But at that latter range, a lot of units simply rely on their designated marksman with an M-14.

[Edited on March 26, 2008 at 9:34 PM. Reason : ^ wha?]

3/26/2008 9:32:08 PM

7.62x51mm ftw

3/27/2008 12:10:20 AM

^^ mmm given the choice I think I'd take the round that does "alright" from 0 to 300m rather then the one that has a good sweetspot and not so good everywhere else.

I wonder how long it will be till they adopt the new 6mm round (6.8 I guess it was called)?
Seems to me the Swedes were 110 years ahead of the curve they had 6.5x55 which is quite accurate and quite lethal to anyone you could hit with it.

3/27/2008 2:43:44 AM

Avtomat Kalashnikova model 1947

if you want to be exact about it...

^ true.

[Edited on March 27, 2008 at 7:43 AM. Reason : s]

3/27/2008 7:42:20 AM

Quote :

"They've been around as a holster shop for a long time - I've purchased two or three from them. Are they converting into a full gun store?"

Yeah they are, as has already been mentioned. They are a SIG preferred dealer and they had a few other things in the cabinets as well. They also said they're doing some buybacks as well. They are also selling some other stuff like some higher end AR's, the brand escapes me right now. They also are selling ESS safety/shooting glasses and a bunch of other stuff. Super nice guys in there, I'll be stopping in to price a 239 on my day off in a while. Hard to do stuff while on duty in a gun store!

3/27/2008 7:57:14 AM

Gun noob here, with a question on local gun shops. Are the likely to move much an a handgun price?

Hear is the situation for a new pistol:
Online: $450+FFL=~$470 (delivered).
Local: $499 quote on the phone + tax = ~$530

If I could get it for $480-490 I'd rather go local, but I'd have a hard time paying $60 extra. Is it common to negotiate a bit? And for this much?

3/27/2008 12:23:18 PM

RunNClimb, where are you located and what kind of gun are you looking at? There may be some local places that people can recommend that can save you some money. I know that for me, I've gotten better prices from Lawman's than I've ever seen online. Downside is that they can't sell a few different manufacturers unless you're L.E.

As far as negotiating, it really depends on the place. A lot of places that I've dealt with will knock a little bit off the price but not nearly as much as you're talking about. I've gotten the best luck from Pawnshop dealers (namely Zebulon Pawn) that are actual dealers rather than just having a couple of pawned pistols. Other places (i.e. Davi's) I've actually laughed at the people after telling me they'll give me a few bucks off on a gun that they're charging $50 more for than anybody else locally.

3/27/2008 12:37:43 PM

^
Lawman's has really good deals.

I'd go ahead and buy online though, it's much easier.

3/27/2008 12:43:35 PM