^^What's unreasonable about it? Breech loading weapons would work fine for home defense or sport.

12/21/2012 9:48:24 AM

Breech loading weapons would definitely not work fine for defense

12/21/2012 10:05:02 AM

Describe realistic home defense situation that requires a semi-automatic rifle.

12/21/2012 10:07:31 AM

^^maybe not for zombie defense, but for one or two invaders, a breech loading rifle or shotgun would work fine.

[Edited on December 21, 2012 at 10:09 AM. Reason : ]

12/21/2012 10:08:11 AM

^^ A situation where you might not hit or immobilize a person with 1 or 2 shots, a situation with more than 1 invader, etc...

12/21/2012 10:09:51 AM

^^^when the shooter is a terrible shot

12/21/2012 10:22:17 AM

gun control debates always make it obvious who hasn't got any experience at all with firearms

12/21/2012 10:43:19 AM

Quote :

"gun control debates always make it obvious who hasn't got any experience at all with firearms "

12/21/2012 10:43:46 AM

get your tactical double-barrels, boys!



[Edited on December 21, 2012 at 10:50 AM. Reason : dsfa]

12/21/2012 10:49:13 AM

Quote :

"It obviously was not an emergency situation. Sorry. Not being a dick, but I prolly wouldn't have called them. I would have def called landlord though."

Obviously it wasn't as urgent as "someone is now bleeding out on my floor" (which it could have been had my room mate not decided to get off the couch some 2 minutes earlier), but I would certainly think a call to the cops about someone randomly shooting in the street would warrant a response faster than 45 minutes. Or are we suggesting that had this asswipe in Newton simply stood on the street corner and started shooting randomly in the direction the school, that wouldn't have been an emergency if no one was hit? And heck, let's even give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter and assume it was someone with a legitimate reason to be shooting their gun in the street. That would mean they were defending their life (or someone elses) with deadly force. Surely that warrants a response time faster than 45 minutes? Even if it's just one cop from the sub station 5 minutes away?

Quote :

" Anyways I hate going into personal stories because it's unscientific. Sample size is only one person."

Absolutely, so let's look at some statistics. In Chicago, the PD has managed to bring their priority one response time down to 3.46 minutes (http://www.wbez.org/story/chicago-police-response-time-down-2012-97137). If you live in rural Virginia, you're looking at 12:48 (http://www.albemarle.org/department.asp?department=perfmgt&relpage=3473). Do you live in Detroit? Good luck holding out for 24 minutes (http://www.thedaily.com/page/2012/02/05/020512-news-detroit-vigilantes-1-5/). Most recent number I could find for RPD is from 99, and that's 5.79 minutes. For the record, in Newton, the first dispatch call went out at 9:35, the police arrived on scene at 9:41 per wikipedia, it only took 3 minutes at VT. In other words, if you ever need to rely on the police to protect you from someone else intent on harming you, chances are, they aren't going to get there in time.

Quote :

"Describe realistic home defense situation that requires a semi-automatic rifle."

Any time you need to shoot more than 1 or 2 bullets. Guns aren't magical, if they don't make your attacker psychologically give up and go some place else, then the only other way they work is by stopping your attacker physiologically. Baring a shot that hits one of the few vital organs that instantly incapacitate you (which are incidentally also the most well protected organs in the human body), they do this the same way any other weapon does, blood out > blood in. Which means the more holes you can put in your attacker, the more likely they are to stop attacking you. Bear in mind as well that the human body is really really good at keeping you alive even through severe trauma. There are plenty of people who have survived multiple gunshots and walked to the ambulance under their own power. Plenty of surfers who have lost a limb to a shark and still made it back to shore. For that matter, ask any hunter how often they've got a perfectly clean shot on a deer and still had to chase the damn thing down because it took off running before it realized it was already dead. That is why any shooting instructor will teach their students to shoot center mass and keep shooting until they stop, because that is the most reliable way to ensure your attacker stops attacking you.

Also, if you live in LA, any time they decide to riot you might want an AR-15, as the Koreans found out.

[Edited on December 21, 2012 at 10:59 AM. Reason : asdf]

12/21/2012 10:56:11 AM

here's what happened itt:

antis: people don't need these scary military style guns
pros: they aren't functionally different than hunting rifles
antis: you don't need semi-automatics
pros: pumps and levers are just as deadly
antis: you should only have single shots and double barrels

rofl

12/21/2012 11:08:06 AM

The NRA is extremely effective as an industry lobby, I'll give them that. They earn every penny they get from their rich donors.

* it's a shame that people associate the NRA with all responsible gun owners. They say reasonable things like "the only thing that stops a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun" but then bring the crazy by essentially blaming free speech, movies, music and video games.

[Edited on December 21, 2012 at 11:23 AM. Reason : X]

12/21/2012 11:12:12 AM

one side blames the 1st amendment. the other blames the 2nd amendment.

12/21/2012 11:32:26 AM

This tragedy, more than any before, has the capacity to really reduce the NRAs power and effectiveness. We've already seen some of the NRAs congressional supporters start to walk back that support.

12/21/2012 11:55:29 AM

According to the NRA CEO, the government should pay to put a police officer at every school.

Does the NRA remember who their membership is primarily consisted of?

Oh I forgot, it's only OK to have large government if its all spent on bombs and guns.

12/21/2012 12:31:42 PM

Quote :

"Does the NRA remember who their membership is primarily consisted of?"

folks with kids who want to see them go to school in a safer place?

12/21/2012 12:38:49 PM

^ exactly, people don't get how dangerous the right wing is of this government. They have very convincing arguments that 99% of the time make zero logical sense.

12/21/2012 12:39:39 PM

Quote :

"folks with kids who want to see them go to school in a safer place? who love small government and think the private sector should provide the country's services?"

NRA is missing a great opportunity here. Start up their own private security firm and have schools pay to have an "officer" stand outside their school with a gun to scare away the bad guys. They get to provide this wonderful service that keeps our children safe, AND make some money.

[Edited on December 21, 2012 at 12:47 PM. Reason : .]

12/21/2012 12:44:41 PM

If we are giving serious consideration to stationing armed guards in schools, then we need to decide where else to put them. Shopping malls, movie theaters, restaurants, office buildings? Those were all sites of mass shootings in the US in recent years.

If schools are the focus because of the children, then where else are there lots of children to protect? Daycares, local parks, Chuck E Cheeses?

12/21/2012 12:49:25 PM

Many schools already have armed police, so it's not a leap to suggest extending that. Pay for it by ending the drug war, and consequently, decreasing the overall crimes rates.

12/21/2012 12:58:08 PM

we had an armed deputy assigned to our high school. aren't most schools like this now?

12/21/2012 1:01:54 PM

i doubt most elementary schools are like that, but i don't know. and aren't there exponentially more elementary schools than high schools?

12/21/2012 1:04:05 PM

Quote :

"If we are giving serious consideration to stationing armed guards in schools, then we need to decide where else to put them. Shopping malls, movie theaters, restaurants, office buildings? Those were all sites of mass shootings in the US in recent years. If schools are the focus because of the children, then where else are there lots of children to protect? Daycares, local parks, Chuck E Cheeses?"

The difference is that school is compulsory; children are forced to attend public school if their parents are unable to make other arrangements. Truancy laws are enforced.

Private organizations and businesses can choose to hire security, and they often do for insurance reasons.

12/21/2012 1:06:52 PM

We should also design all educational facilities to meet FEMAs guidelines for perimeter defense outlined in Chapter 4 of FEMA 430. We need walls, and bollards, and active and passive barriers to keep our children safe!

12/21/2012 1:24:36 PM

Quote :

"pumps and levers are just as deadly"

That seems to be the opposite argument to what all of the pros seem to be making in this thread. They are arguing that they are not deadly enough.

Quote :

"when the shooter is a terrible shot"

I don't think I want someone who is a terrible shot having a more deadly weapon, at least this way they may stop after they accidently shoot someone once.

Quote :

"A situation where you might not hit or immobilize a person with 1 or 2 shots, a situation with more than 1 invader, etc..."

Quote :

"Which means the more holes you can put in your attacker, the more likely they are to stop attacking you."

A shotgun takes care of both of those. In close quarters (like the kind prevalent in a home invasion) it has a great deal of stopping power and can put "a large number of holes" in the attacker.

Quote :

"There are plenty of people who have survived multiple gunshots and walked to the ambulance under their own power."

The number of people who have survived multiple gunshot wounds and managed to continue on to harm the still armed shooter is probably much lower.

Quote :

"Also, if you live in LA, any time they decide to riot you might want an AR-15, as the Koreans found out."

If you live in LA and are afraid of riots, I'd suggest you buy insurance and do your best to escape the riot rather than gambling on the outcome of a gunfight.

Quote :

"According to the NRA CEO, the government should pay to put a police officer at every school."

Why not a fireman? Fires happen a lot more often at schools. Why not a chemist in case there are biological weapons? An engineer, in case the floor falls in? A lifeguard in case of floods? School shootings don't happen that often, and having more guns in school only increases the far more likely chance of an accident.

12/21/2012 1:31:35 PM

Quote :

"That seems to be the opposite argument to what all of the pros seem to be making in this thread. They are arguing that they are not deadly enough."

where did this happen?

12/21/2012 1:33:30 PM

Columbine High School had an armed resource officer who was on duty on April 20, 1999.

12/21/2012 1:36:36 PM

Then the school needed more armed officers, clearly.

12/21/2012 1:38:50 PM

Quote :

"Private organizations and businesses can choose to hire security, and they often do for insurance reasons. "

I get your point about school being complusory, but while businesses often hire security guards, they usually don't arm them, because it's overkill.

[Edited on December 21, 2012 at 1:47 PM. Reason : no pun intended]

12/21/2012 1:40:24 PM

they needed an outer perimeter with fortified walls and early screening so the threat could be confronted at the gate instead of inside the school. why don't we build walls and security posts?

12/21/2012 1:41:17 PM

Where's the prison lobby with their proposals for new school buildings?

12/21/2012 1:46:45 PM

Quote :

"where did this happen?"

"Breech loading weapons would definitely not work fine for defense"
"A situation where you might not hit or immobilize a person with 1 or 2 shots, a situation with more than 1 invader, etc"
dtownral

"when the shooter is a terrible shot"
Bullet

"Any time you need to shoot more than 1 or 2 bullets. Guns aren't magical, if they don't make your attacker psychologically give up and go some place else, then the only other way they work is by stopping your attacker physiologically. Baring a shot that hits one of the few vital organs that instantly incapacitate you..."
1337 b4k4

then the post:
"pumps and levers are just as deadly"
NeuseRvrRat
Seems to indicate that the weapons descibed as not deadly enough by the previous posts are in fact just as deadly as current allowed weapons.

12/21/2012 2:19:45 PM

Shotguns are not the perfect weapon for home or self defense. In reality, they are a poor substitute. They are not great at anything, but can do a lot of different things. Ask a person with any experience behind these weapons, and the shotgun will normally be picked last pending exigent circumstances for the need. Pump shotguns are regularly short stroked when used under pressure.



Also: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1X9uhG3U6ib9CfYKWfQ8XTQHg3tyxO9TARYPXesr0NGI

Quote :

" n 2011, Homicide was only 16th in leading causes of death in the US, Suicide is the 10th in the nation (http://goo.gl/vQqEj). You are far more likely to lose someone if they pick up a cigarette (438/day, http://goo.gl/iJQRU or (135/day, http://goo.gl/po24U) for those who inhale secondhand smoke, or even if they step into a car (95/day, http://goo.gl/8RgVI). It’s times like these that I feel it’s important to remind people of the facts about gun related crimes. The media likes to take an aggressive stance against certain types of weapons because it’s a sensationalist topic that will sell. However, there is much that is not presented which leaves their representation of statistics with a great bias. 2009: Number of firearm homicides: 11,493 (3.7 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/vQqEj) - CDC/DoVS Number of firearm murders: 9,146 (2.98 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/AE0dq) - FBI Number of suicide firearm deaths: 18,735 (6.1 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/vQqEj - 2.04x times the number of murders) 2010: Number of firearm homicides: 11,015 (3.6 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/bu0bt) - CDC/DoVS Number of firearm murders: 8,775 (2.84 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/AE0dq) - FBI Number of suicide firearm deaths: 19,308 (6.3 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/bu0bt - 2.20x times the number of murders) 2011: Number of firearm homicides: 11,101 (3.6 / 100,000 - http://goo.gl/8RgVI) - CDC/DoVS Number of firearm murders: 8,583 (2.75 / 100,000 - http://goo.gl/AE0dq) - FBI Number of suicide firearm deaths: 19,766 (6.3/100,000 - http://goo.gl/8RgVI - 2.30x times the number of murders) The difference between the homicides and murders implies a higher accidental death rate. Murders still declined. Homicides and suicide firearm deaths are two statistics that are often reported together to increase the shock value of the firearm death rate. Firearm murders are on a decline (as reported by the FBI, Bureau of Justice, etc.) yet suicides are on the rise. It’s a distinction that should be made as they just don’t qualify as the same coverage (http://goo.gl/zqJuA) and reporting them as such is a misrepresentation of the overall statistics. The statistics (in brief demonstrated here) shows there is a larger problem with suicide rate in the country. However, I feel the confines of this paper are not suitable for the mental health discussion as it could be had by itself. Lastly, If someone needs help (1-800-273-8255) they should have a way to get it, but that doesn’t mean that everyone will seek assistance. Contrary to popular belief, the most common weapon used is not an assault rifle. In fact, the 2011 FBI murder report (http://goo.gl/LcT8v) details 12,664 murders, 6,220 (49%) of them were committed with handguns, knives totalled up to 1,694 (13.3%) and fists accounted for yet another 3.9%. Rifles came in in absolute last with 323 murders (2.5%), excluding unknown weapons. This is further backed up by California's 2009 report which explicitly lists the bullets used by frequency (http://goo.gl/RYG0e). The most common were the 9mm handgun round at more than double the use of the 2nd place round, the .22 rifle (or occasionally handgun) round. Traditional assault rifle rounds (7.62mm & .223”) were in last place for usage. On the same Justice Bureau website (http://goo.gl/qccOz) we read; “During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun." These statistics align with the FBI's 2.5% rifle usage rate in it’s 2011 "About Gun Crime in the U.S" report, mentioned above (http://goo.gl/XpFiF). Quoting the Justice Bureau's webpage once again, (http://goo.gl/qccOz); "Firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993" and a 1997 prison survey highlights the fact that illegal firearm sources most often come from “family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source” 80% of the time, contrary to common media misrepresentation that Gun Shows contribute many firearms, which were only listed as 2% of the response. Another statistic rarely mentioned is the ratio at which gun crime occurs to gun ownership. In the United States, there are estimated to be 270 Million firearms, both licit and illicit, in the hands of private citizens (http://goo.gl/i2ifW). Compared to the number of weapons used in a murder (See: FBI Report 2011) that occurred last year is 0.003178%. That’s 3.17 per 100,000. Previous years (citing the same page), show that this is a continued decrease from each prior year: 2006:5.70, 2007:5.61, 2008:5.35, 2009:4.96, 2010:4.6 Verifying this information, the FBI Murder statistics show a steady decline every year starting at 10,150 in 2005 (beginning of the report) and ending at 8,583 reports in 2011: http://goo.gl/P5D5q All these statistics demonstrate that attention grabbing issues are nothing more than distractions from the real problem; Handgun and gang violence that the press has long since moved past. In this FBI spreadsheet on gang activity it is apparent that handgun usage is on the rise, and hasn’t seen a drop in gang related homicide activity, (raw numbers: http://goo.gl/OxvrZ, chart: http://goo.gl/ZR5ih). We mostly see high publicity events that grab media attention, while the majority of gun violence is statistically carried out with illegally obtained handguns not assault weapons, (and not in schools) however those more common issues don't garner press attention. A fine example, is that the death toll from all mass shootings (30 over 13 years) since Columbine (273, http://goo.gl/J2oMJ) are surpassed by drive-by shooting deaths in Los Angeles, in a single year (275, http://goo.gl/qYSQJ). I do not seek to trivialize the horrific nature of the mass shootings that have occurred in our society but to suggest alternate means of handling their occurrence. As a society, we (and particularly the press) often have knee jerk reactions to extremist situations when there are much, much larger problems occurring, (daily even) that aren't pushed at us with such tenacity. As such I'll side with Roger Ebert and his recent article. If we stop placing the killers in the limelight, perhaps they won't be frequent. We shouldn't remember and glorify the names of those that stormed Columbine yet forget the victims; http://goo.gl/6UmOg "

12/21/2012 3:25:39 PM

Quote :

"one side blames the 1st amendment. the other blames the 2nd amendment."

I don't mean this facetiously: that's pretty deep.

12/21/2012 3:28:33 PM

I didn't know a pump action shotgun was breech loading

[Edited on December 21, 2012 at 3:44 PM. Reason : I understood it as break action from the posts]

12/21/2012 3:41:38 PM

Breech loading= pump or semi auto
Break action= your grandpa's badass old double-barrel

Just think about how you have to load shells, pretty self explanatory

[Edited on December 21, 2012 at 3:54 PM. Reason : r]

12/21/2012 3:53:28 PM

technically, breach loading is similar to a cannon, and port loading in an option on a pump or some single shot shotguns.

12/21/2012 4:09:35 PM

^^ what, a break action is not breech loading? What are you breaking away, where are you loading. The shells?



[Edited on December 21, 2012 at 4:10 PM. Reason : .]

12/21/2012 4:09:47 PM

Quote :

"According to the NRA CEO, the government should pay to put a police officer at every school."

Brilliant. I asked on page 2 when the NRA would have some sort of function in the area. Although not quite a function, I'd say that this spectacle accomplishes the same goal just as flippantly.

His job is to secure profits for gun manufacturers. Forcing taxpayers to pay for armed guards to prevent their children from being shot multiple times in the head is one way to do that.

Anonymous NRA Henchman: Hey Wayne, a bunch of 6 and 7 year olds just got murdered at an elementary school!"

Wayne LaPierre: Jackpot!

12/21/2012 5:31:54 PM

Wayne LaPierre: Let's wait wait until the end of the newsweek and then tell parents that if they want their kids to learn what a silent 'e' is, they better be willing to fork out some money to us. If not, they'll have blood on their hands!

12/21/2012 5:43:55 PM

There is a police officer at nearly every middle and high school already, so his idea isn't much more that what is already going on.

12/21/2012 6:10:02 PM

It's still stupid, but probably not in the way that JHC thinks. In the past 10 years, 85 people have died in school shootings, plus another 119 in other rampages, in the US per wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_School_massacres
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Americas

204 tragic deaths that should never have happened to be sure, but still, just 204 in 10 years. The fact is, in 2009 1,314 children died in car accidents (by the way, horifying statistic, apparently 2/3rds of those were because the driver was drunk, not hit by a drunk driver, but because the person driving the child was drunk).

http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/child_passenger_safety/cps-factsheet.html

Simply put, dying in a mass killing in the US is a vanishingly rare event, and even rarer at school. Honestly, we could simply and honestly not do anything at all, not add more armed guards, not add armed teachers and not ban guns, and you would still be safer sending your child to school every day than you would be sending them to the pool, or driving them somewhere.

12/21/2012 6:40:44 PM

^^the point is that the stupid cocksucker at the NRA wants to fix a problem his organization helped create by forcing you to put your money into his pocket.

12/21/2012 6:50:44 PM

You've got to admire the balls it takes to make such an announcement.

12/21/2012 11:03:55 PM

Quote :

"A shotgun takes care of both of those. In close quarters (like the kind prevalent in a home invasion) it has a great deal of stopping power and can put "a large number of holes" in the attacker."

Which is why I prefer semi-automatic shotguns with very large magazine capacity. If I ever have to use it, I want things to be absurdly one-sided.

_____________

I've mentioned this before, but I know a guy who shot 2 home intruders with .40 S&W hollow points...he shot one of them 7 times, the other 8. They were all torso shots except for one to the head. BOTH of those dudes lived! One is all mentally fucked up now, and the other one shits in a bag, but they both lived.


I'm not looking to get into a gunfight, but if I ever do, I'm not looking to shoot someone just once and then stop to see if he has now come around to my way of thinking. Things are already way, way, way out of hand at that point--I would be looking to make him look like swiss cheese within the course of a few seconds. That's why I'm a proponent of a drum-fed 12-gauge.

12/21/2012 11:38:52 PM

http://m.now.msn.com/randolph-linn-says-fox-news-riled-him-up-before-he-started-a-fire-at-a-mosque

Conservative terrorist riled up by Fox News.

12/21/2012 11:41:47 PM

45 beers in 7 hours? Jesus fuck, that doesn't sound even remotely possible.

12/21/2012 11:45:42 PM

I've personally seen someone come very close to that before. One of my friends is built like a cave man...

He's never burned any buildings down though, but he also doesn't watch Fox.

12/21/2012 11:47:38 PM

double barrel mode with the Baikal Shotgun!!! VIETCOOOOONG!!!!

12/21/2012 11:51:37 PM

Quote :

"Which is why I prefer semi-automatic shotguns with very large magazine capacity. If I ever have to use it, I want things to be absurdly one-sided."

That's a price I'd gladly pay to make these spree killings less successful.

12/22/2012 11:15:44 AM