Quote :

"Israel is just defending itself guys! How delusional do you have to be to support Israel at this point? What's happening is an atrocity."

An atrocity? Hardly. People are dying in an armed conflict, that tends to happen when different groups of people lob weapons at each other. No one side is being any more wicked or cruel than the others.

And you don't have to be delusional to support Israel either. "Oh! But so many more Palestinians are dying vs Israeli citizens!" You mean Israel is winning? They have technological and military superiority? Maybe Hamas should have thought about that before getting all rocket happy.

If you're going to pick a fight with someone bigger/stronger than you, don't get all pissy when you get punched in the face repeatedly.

7/21/2014 11:48:54 AM

most of the people in Gaza aren't fighting shit, they are just living in an open air prison

i can't tell if your post is serious or trolling

7/21/2014 11:54:29 AM

^^Another person who thinks people should just accept being occupied and kicked out of their homes without fighting back: If a bully is bigger than you, you should just let him do whatever he wants to do. If you try to stop or hurt the bully and he ends up killing you and your family and a few friends, it's your own damn fault. Survival of the fittest, kill the weak and let yahweh sort 'em out.


[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 12:16 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2014 11:55:52 AM

The main point is that Israel holds all the cards. Palestine or the Palestinian people are basically a nothing, they aren't even a country. They have no military, no political influence, no money, and no means to get any of those things. Worse, the image that they are nothing but a breed of Jew hating terrorists continues to be perpetuated by religious zealots in positions of power all over the world. Israel, meanwhile, is one of the most highly developed nations in the world with a strong economy and regional military superiority. They can end this conflict tomorrow, peacefully, and never have to worry about rockets flying in their direction again. The only reason it doesn't is because they don't want it too.

7/21/2014 12:02:45 PM

Quote :

"They have technological and military superiority? Maybe Hamas should have thought about that before getting all rocket happy. "

So when facing a technologically and organizationally inferior opponent, target selection goes out the window?

I'm not convinced that a military response to Hamas' pathetic rocket volley is unjustified, but how many Palestinian civilians have to die before you're comfortable calling it an atrocity?

(Also not convinced by Israel's right to even be in Palestine, but whatever)

7/21/2014 12:04:09 PM

Quote :

"Worse, the image that they are nothing but a breed of Jew hating terrorists continues to be perpetuated by religious zealots in positions of power all over the world"

that image is being perpetuated by the media and people who keep defending Israel's indefensible shit instead of thinking about the situation critically

Quote :

"They can end this conflict tomorrow, peacefully, and never have to worry about rockets flying in their direction again."

how can they do that exactly? kill every person in Gaza? For every person that they kill in Gaza they will just create 2 more terrorists in another part of Palestine or somewhere else in the world.

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 12:20 PM. Reason : .]

7/21/2014 12:19:08 PM

Quote :

"how can they do that exactly? kill every person in Gaza? "

I think he's suggesting they could wage a much more targeted campaign. Or they could give Palestinians their land back and recognize their state. You know, be more friendly neighbors (although that wouldn't stop all hostilities from Hamas extremists).

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 12:29 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2014 12:25:00 PM

Haha yeah, I'm not sure how my comment was interpreted as advocating genocide

7/21/2014 12:34:18 PM

Quote :

"I think he's suggesting they could wage a much more targeted campaign."

but Israel is claiming that this is a targeted campaign to close tunnels and stop rocket attacks.

(same as in 2008-2009, so I'm not sure why anyone would expect a different result this time)

7/21/2014 12:36:36 PM

We're not talking about what Israel is claiming. We're talking about what they're doing. They could target rockets and tunnels more accurately.. Of course, they'd be putting theirselves in greater danger. So instead, they indiscriminately kill innocent people and level homes (and sometimes hit hospitals) who may happen to be near a supposed launching area or tunnel.

7/21/2014 12:44:30 PM

but why does he think that would stop anything? it wouldn't do shit.

7/21/2014 12:48:11 PM

It wouldn't kill nearly the amount of innocent civilians or buildings, and therefore wouldn't incite as much anger from the innocent Palestinians, who maybe, just maybe wouldn't feel inclined to support the Hamas extremists?... what are you arguing? Israel should just keep lobbing missles over there? Israel should do nothing about the Hamas extremists that are firing missles and want to kill all Israelis?

7/21/2014 12:53:03 PM

It takes a real colonial mindset to accept what is happening.

Unless you view the +500 civilians killed, and over +3,000 injured as sub-human, there is no way you can shrug off this incident (and previous similar offensives) as anything less than a hostile conquest.


How many times does Benyamin Netanyahu need to declare Israel's boundaries as "indefensible" before people realize that the country's stated goal is to expand? He's on record of saying this, before the US congress, no less (and received by unanimous applause from both sides of the aisle). This isn't that shitty superman movie where you can just create land. If a country wants to expand today, they have to take it from somebody. In what universe is colonial expansion considered DEFENSE?

7/21/2014 12:59:16 PM

you should read up on the six day war obviously

an understanding of history might assist in interpreting present day events

just a suggestion / dont take offense

7/21/2014 1:07:25 PM

Quote :

"It wouldn't kill nearly the amount of innocent civilians or buildings, and therefore wouldn't incite as much anger from the innocent Palestinians, who maybe, just maybe wouldn't feel inclined to support the Hamas extremists?... what are you arguing? Israel should just keep lobbing missles over there? Israel should do nothing about the Hamas extremists that are firing missles and want to kill all Israelis?"

i'm arguing that his desire for more targeted strikes won't do shit, we will be in the exact same position in the near future. (and that targeted strikes are still pretty devastating in urban areas)

if Israel wants to stop the rockets they need to recognize Palestine and improve conditions for Palestinians, even if it means dealing with some rocket attacks in the short term

7/21/2014 1:10:48 PM

Quote :

"Hamas's commitment to terrorism and to Israel's destruction lock Gazans into a conflict with Israel that can never be won and that produces little more than Palestinian civilian deaths. Israel's blockade on Gaza, which strangles economic life there and punishes civilians, helps produce a climate that is hospitable to extremism, and allows Hamas to nurture a belief that even if Hamas may never win, at least refusing to put down their weapons is a form of liberation."

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5902177/9-questions-about-the-israel-palestine-conflict-you-were-too

7/21/2014 1:37:39 PM

Oh look, another comment from yowilly where he attempts to marginalize another users understanding while sounding professorial and simultaneously contributing dick-little to the conversation.

Got any other cheeky homework assignments for us, willys? Maybe a book report? 250 word essay? Maybe that's too tough. We should just start with just coloring the territories in question on a map, don't you think? Nothing too straining, it's still the beginning of the semester. Maybe I should just audit your class.

7/21/2014 1:43:35 PM

This is disgusting:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

7/21/2014 1:59:54 PM

I'm not defending Israel's actions, but how many of you think that Hamas deserves to exist as a political organization? You realize that if they had the power to they would exterminate all Israelis and turn Israel into a fundamentalist Islamic state, right? They have said things to this effect, if not outright. They are no different from any other extremist Muslim group like ISIS or the Taliban, except in degree of extremism. As far as "innocent" civilians are concerned, most Palestinians support Hamas at least ideologically, if not monetarily, or militarily.

I don't know how someone who is against the spread of "Christian Sharia Law" could defend a radical Muslim group like Hamas. In my opinion, they need to be pounded into the ground in order to allow a more progressive and civilized group to be put in place that would truly be capable of peacefully coexisting with Jews. But I'm not sure Palestinians are even capable of that.

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 4:00 PM. Reason : .]

7/21/2014 3:58:19 PM

holy red herring batman, aaronburro's probably getting a text alert right now

7/21/2014 4:54:17 PM

^^Let me reduce your post down to the basic point you're trying to make:

“They're all the same!"


That's pretty much what you're trying to say, right? All Palestinians are savages?

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 4:58 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2014 4:55:14 PM

I'm not defending Israel here, but first allow me to make some horrible gross generalizations about an entire civilization, and their so called "victims."

7/21/2014 5:02:52 PM

It is Hamas's stated intent to take-over all of Israel and turn it into an Islamic State, right?

7/21/2014 5:07:13 PM

Quote :

"I'm not defending Israel's actions, but how many of you think that Hamas deserves to exist as a political organization? You realize that if they had the power to they would exterminate all Israelis and turn Israel into a fundamentalist Islamic state, right? They have said things to this effect, if not outright. They are no different from any other extremist Muslim group like ISIS or the Taliban, except in degree of extremism. As far as "innocent" civilians are concerned, most Palestinians support Hamas at least ideologically, if not monetarily, or militarily. I don't know how someone who is against the spread of "Christian Sharia Law" could defend a radical Muslim group like Hamas. In my opinion, they need to be pounded into the ground in order to allow a more progressive and civilized group to be put in place that would truly be capable of peacefully coexisting with Jews. But I'm not sure Palestinians are even capable of that."

The problem is that by killing civilians, even in self defense, israel is creating more extremists in the region that hate them, guaranteeing future extremists. This isn't a religious feud.

Israel has a right to defend itself, but their strategy will never end this conflict. It only guarantees future conflict. And considering that Israel is wining, it wouldn't be hard to believe that Israel wants to wipe out Palestinians (because this is, in effect, what's been happening for the past few decades). It's been Israel killing generations of people, seizing territory, a forcing people to flee their homes.

At some point, it's either both sides agree on borders, or Palestinians live under Israel's rule as second class citizens.

7/21/2014 5:13:12 PM

^^they are definitely an Islamist group and don't recognize Israel, they are also democratically elected.

what carzak and others don't realize is that they exist because Israel has made it so easy for them exist. The blockade has created a huge humanitarian crises for Gaza, Hamas has a network of tunnels that they use not only to smuggle weapons but also food, medicine, and building supplies. Hamas, a terrorist group, also provides aid to people who have little and often can't get it from anyone else. they run schools and hospitals and provide supplies. they are like mobsters in impoverished cities but worse.

If you want to weaken Hamas you need to improve the conditions of Palestinians and not respond to attacks disproportionately, you need to engage the moderate elements of Hamas and remove blockades and embargoes. The only chance that Israel has to stop rocket attacks is to recognize Palestine and try to improve their situation.

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 5:21 PM. Reason : .]

7/21/2014 5:19:59 PM

Yup, treat this like a humanitarian crisis with an embedded criminal element, not a featureless swath of "enemy" territory full of targets to hit. The numbers are really staggering. We're talking a landmass smaller than the Raleigh metropolitan area with the highest population density in the world being pummeled by thousands of bombs and missiles from fixed wing aircraft. Then they try and justify it with propaganda like this,



[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 5:29 PM. Reason : :]

7/21/2014 5:29:21 PM

Quote :

"what carzak and others don't realize is that they exist because Israel has made it so easy for them exist."

Right, and the girl walking alone at night gets raped because she dresses like a slut and makes it so easy for her attackers to rape her. It's a shitty argument to make in any context including this one.

Hamas is just as culpable in breeding this hatred as Israel. They hide rocket production facilities and tunnel infrastructure behind civilian populations then act outraged when civilians die because Israel took out a portion of their supply chain. It's a double standard to be outraged at what Israel is doing while looking on as Hamas purposefully fuels this fire from their end.

7/21/2014 5:35:17 PM

Rule of thumb: If you see any poster or infographic with the official logo of a nations army on it, it's contents are complete horseshit.

7/21/2014 5:36:12 PM

^^ are you trolling, did you read the post? i mean jesus shitty analogy christ.

7/21/2014 5:36:50 PM

Quote :

" Are you just saying that they should accept occupation"

They didn't accept it when occupation ended. In 2005 all Israelis were pulled out of Gaza, many against their will and with force from the Israeli government. Instead of that creating peace, it created internal Palestinian struggles and continued violence against each other and against Israel.

Quote :

"They can end this conflict tomorrow, peacefully, and never have to worry about rockets flying in their direction again"

Hamas lists the destruction of Israel as an objective in its charter. No matter what Israel does, Hamas will continue violently. So until Hamas is taken out or all rockets and missiles are shut down and destroyed (and no more get smuggled in from other countries), then what are they supposed to do?

^^I agree, disgusting. But don't assume every Israeli person feels that way or that all Palestinians aren't guilty of the same. The celebrations of Israeli deaths don't even match the level of teaching to kill Israelis using television characters meant for children.

Quote :

" imagine if Russians were "placed" in the US by the UN"

If you want to talk hypothetical, a better example would be US and Mexico. The two have exchanged land and changed borders through a history of war and politics. Today there are already many Americans in support of a wall blocking the border, and regardless of your views on immigration, we all know Mexicans are trying to sneak into the country. Now let's imagine a world where the Mexican government wants to destroy the United States. Those crossing the border are now coming with guns and bombs, and every major city in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are within range of missile attacks. The missiles aren't great, and even with a proper defense system they could still kill hundreds of Americans at a time if they hit the right place.

In this scenario, how would Americans react? What is the "proportional" response?

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 5:46 PM. Reason : -]

7/21/2014 5:38:00 PM

the people treating mexicans as second-class citizens and wanting to close borders and deport children are also terrible human beings

in that analogy, Israel is the rednecks blockading the buses of children

7/21/2014 5:42:38 PM

^^^Like instructing people to act as human shields?

7/21/2014 5:44:08 PM

Quote :

"Oh look, another comment from yowilly where he attempts to marginalize another users understanding while sounding professorial and simultaneously contributing dick-little to the conversation. Got any other cheeky homework assignments for us, willys? Maybe a book report? 250 word essay? Maybe that's too tough. We should just start with just coloring the territories in question on a map, don't you think? Nothing too straining, it's still the beginning of the semester. Maybe I should just audit your class."

actually you should just do your homework like i said.

7/21/2014 5:47:29 PM

^^Ummmm....I guess? I can't read that.


You see, I don't need to prove my position. I've been consistent throughout this thread, often directing my invective at you.


And I usually direct at you for doing EXACTLY what you're doing now, which is trying to excuse one groups awful behavior by pointing at another group, as if that somehow legitimizes the former.


[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 5:50 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2014 5:49:30 PM

^^^that text says "a strong people" and it seems to have originated on an IDF website



[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 5:52 PM. Reason : but yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization]

7/21/2014 5:49:47 PM

Quote :

"You see, I don't need to prove my position."

every dumb anti-conservative-republican-no-matter-what-probably-liberal user on TWW should preface everything they say with this.

especially in the soap box.

...and only because they outnumber conservative republicans.

7/21/2014 5:52:14 PM

Quote :

"If you want to weaken Hamas you need to improve the conditions of Palestinians and not respond to attacks disproportionately, you need to engage the moderate elements of Hamas and remove blockades and embargoes. The only chance that Israel has to stop rocket attacks is to recognize Palestine and try to improve their situation. "

Who are these moderate elements of Hamas? Hamas is inherently NOT moderate. Why would allowing them to have more resources by ending embargoes and blockades help? Hamas would like nothing more than to have the resources to violently overthrow Israel. There is little question about that. They pretend to act like they want peace.

Quote :

"Israel has rejected some truce offers by Hamas because it contends the group uses them to prepare for more fighting rather than peace.[74] The Atlantic magazine columnist Jeffrey Goldberg, along with other analysts, believes Hamas may be incapable of permanent reconciliation with Israel.[75][76] Mkhaimer Abusada, a political scientist at Al Azhar University, writes that Hamas talks "of hudna [temporary ceasefire], not of peace or reconciliation with Israel. They believe over time they will be strong enough to liberate all historic Palestine."[77]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Goals

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-hamas/2014/07/18/3140e516-0c55-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

7/21/2014 5:52:45 PM

https://www.google.com/search?q=moderate+elements+of+hamas&oq=moderate&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.1228j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

Quote :

"Why would allowing them to have more resources by ending embargoes and blockades help? "

it allows Palestinians to have what they need, which means that they don't have to get it from Hamas.

(and can you really not see the problems with the citation in your second quote?)

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 6:00 PM. Reason : .]

7/21/2014 5:55:11 PM

yes, its quite amusing anyone ITT gives hamas the benefit of the doubt.

thats why the past couple pages are so embarrassing to read.

7/21/2014 5:55:55 PM

Mark, your trolling is better when its more subtle

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 5:56 PM. Reason : .]

7/21/2014 5:56:36 PM

Quote :

"bdmazur, Can you admit that if your goal is to stop rocket attacks and tunnels, then this campaign will not be effective at reaching this goal? If not, why did the 2008-2009 campaign not work but this one will?"

7/21/2014 5:59:37 PM

Quote :

" trying to excuse one groups awful behavior by pointing at another group"

All I've been seeing in this thread recently is defense of Hamas' actions because Israel has done this and that. Is that not the same thing? I don't agree with how the Israeli government is handling this operation, but it would be worse to sit and do nothing. If Israel doesn't respond to Hamas with force, then it opens the door for other terrorist organizations in Syria and Iran to do the same. Because of this, the leaders feel that Israel can never appear to look weak.

Quote :

"why did the 2008-2009 campaign not work but this one will?"

As long as the civilian population continues to be controlled and influenced by violent, hate-filled leaders like those in Hamas, I don't think anything will work to end the violence. Hamas wants the Palestinian death toll to keep rising, it's people are just disposable resources.

7/21/2014 6:06:22 PM

Quote :

"it allows Palestinians to have what they need, which means that they don't have to get it from Hamas. "

And why would those resources not make it into Hamas' hands to do what they wish, instead of helping Palestinians? They run the place. The only way to ensure Palestinians are helped is to have a ground invasion with humanitarian supplies. Which I believe is what Israel is planning. But the whole thing is being misconstrued as an imperialist land grab. I don't know how anyone could think that Israel wants to permanently occupy Gaza. They may occupy it temporarily, but I don't believe they have grand plans to eliminate Gaza or a Palestinian state forever. They just want a stable region with a Palestinian government that isn't going to spray rockets at them when the mood strikes them.

Also,

https://www.google.com/search?q=moderate+elements+of+hamas&oq=moderate&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.1228j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

is a pretty weak response.

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 6:20 PM. Reason : .]

7/21/2014 6:18:23 PM

^^You've taken the Bush doctrine to an absurd level. Preemptively responding to one nation in order to intimidate another nation. Wow.

You're arguing that Israel needs to continue pummeling Palestinians in order to prevent Iran from invading?

Gotta keep killing Palestinian civilians so that we can show those evil Persians whose boss!

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 6:44 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2014 6:19:20 PM

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 6:22 PM. Reason : nvm....]

7/21/2014 6:21:28 PM

^ Israel has occupied Gaza and the west bank for ages, now. They're not about to give that up for a stable Gaza independent state.. And you're fucking high if you think a "humanitarian" ground invasion is about to occur.


"Sorry we leveled your homes and hospitals. Would you like some cookies?"

Yeah. You're right with that edit. Nevermind is a better post.

7/21/2014 6:24:11 PM

Oh it'll be violent and deadly, no doubt. But that is sometimes inevitable when you you're dealing with extremist militants who will fight to the death. There's just no other way around it if you want to get rid of them. You can't just offer them food and riches and they'll change their ways. Israel just needs to allow plenty of time for the innocent civilians to leave, provide refuge camps, and do what they can to reduce collateral damage.

7/21/2014 6:34:26 PM

Removing Hamas before improving the conditions in Palestine is the worst thing that could happen to both Palestine and Israel (and is bad for the middle east at large)

Quote :

" As long as the civilian population continues to be controlled and influenced by violent, hate-filled leaders like those in Hamas, I don't think anything will work to end the violence. Hamas wants the Palestinian death toll to keep rising, it's people are just disposable resources"

What kind of psychopathic monster is okay with killing hundreds when they know it won't make a difference?

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 7:58 PM. Reason : .]

7/21/2014 7:56:09 PM

Yeah, you're right, it would be better if a dozen armed terrorists snuck into Israel everyday and started shooting up and Israel just did nothing to close the tunnels they're coming through.

7/21/2014 8:20:31 PM

Because the status quo is the only other option? No.

7/21/2014 8:23:31 PM