moron, your thinking is weird. you can't reach your own hip if you are lying on the ground and someone is on top of you? it is weird that IF Z was the one screaming, he would stop completely and immediately after shooting T dead? we are not robots. you have been watching too many movies.

Quote :

"the known witnesses in this case were giant vaginas-- no one came to help, they hid in their houses"

wait, you are saying you would continue screaming (like a vagina?) after shooting the aggressor dead, but you are insulting people for staying inside their houses because they didn't want to get involved in a street fight with 2 large people, one of whom was armed?

WTF?!

4/12/2012 10:23:42 AM

I couldn't tell whom you were quoting on the vaginas thing but I have to go with Betty White on this. Why do we use vagina or pussies as euphemisms for weakness? They routinely take quite the pounding. Balls are relatively weak and sensitive. Those witnesses were being nutsacks.

4/12/2012 11:23:31 AM

Quote :

"If Z was the one yelling help, why does ALL yelling stop after the gun shot? Wouldn't he still yell something?"

For that matter why do you yell help if you have a gun trained on someone? You'd think Z would yell something akin to "Stop or I'll shoot" Makes more sense for the kid to be yelling for help because someone's pointing a gun at him.

4/12/2012 11:32:21 AM

^ Because he didn't have the gun trained on him. The story from Zimmerman is that he was on his back on the ground being beat up by Martin, and during that struggle, pulled the gun and fired from close range. It's likely Martin never even saw the gun.

4/12/2012 12:14:26 PM

Quote :

"Imagine how many people would be alive if we didn't have violent reactions to stupid shit. Some guy following you around isn't an excuse to beat the guy up, no matter how sketched out you are. Equally, some kid telling you to mind your own damn business when you ask him why he's walking around "your neighborhood" isn't a reason to beat him up (or kill him) either. Realistically, even if everything else up to that point had happened the same exact way, Martin would be alive today if someone hadn't decided to get hands on."

Exactly.

4/12/2012 3:03:58 PM

Quote :

"Which segments are picking and choosing? I don't see any example of this anywhere. What do you mean "without trial"? It sounds like you are on the same side as Trayvon's family, because they wanted a trial PERIOD. "

Segments - large portions of the black community, especially professional race-baiters like Rev Al and Rev Jesse. I would like to see them stand up for all of the other young black men that are killed everyday by senseless violence, instead of waiting for the opportune time to turn it into a race debate

I am on the side of letting justice be served. Lets see all of the evidence. Not edited together BS and innuendo. There should be a trial that should be unbiased. Unfortunately a ton of people have already made up their minds as to this man's guilt or innocence. Sheep herding, on both sides.

4/12/2012 3:09:24 PM

^&^^

4/12/2012 3:25:49 PM

Quote :

"Why do we use vagina or pussies as euphemisms for weakness? They routinely take quite the pounding"

Because they TAKE IT, instead of dish it out.

4/12/2012 4:41:13 PM

Quote :

"Imagine how many people would be alive if we didn't have violent reactions to stupid shit. Some guy following you around isn't an excuse to beat the guy up, no matter how sketched out you are. Equally, some kid telling you to mind your own damn business when you ask him why he's walking around "your neighborhood" isn't a reason to beat him up (or kill him) either. Realistically, even if everything else up to that point had happened the same exact way, Martin would be alive today if someone hadn't decided to get hands on."

This.

Too many people try to be Billy Badass or some gangster over the dumbest shit.

"You lookin at my girls titties boy? I'll beat your fucking ass"

"Well dude, basically only her nipples are covered, if you don't want me looking at them, don't let her out of the house with them basically totally exposed."



I once saw a guy almost fight a guy at McDonalds because he grabbed the wrong bag when the employee set it on the counter.

Innocent mistake, but this one dude basically had to be told by some of the other customers to go sit his ass down and let it go.

I can't imagine being the type of person who wants to throw down in public over someone touching my McDonalds bag.

If the guy who grabbed the bag had been as big an idiot wanna be hardass as the first guy, that situation could have gotten ugly fast.

I can't imagine what would have happened if he had accidentally bumped into one of his kids.

4/12/2012 5:24:04 PM

I'm stunned that you and others would be talking smack about "billy bad asses" while defending the man who sits in his car with a loaded gun and follows "suspicious" children around his neighborhood.

It baffles the mind.

4/12/2012 6:55:32 PM

Probably not how I'd spend my time, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Quote :

"Imagine how many people would be alive if we didn't have violent reactions to stupid shit. Some guy following you around isn't an excuse to beat the guy up, no matter how sketched out you are. Equally, some kid telling you to mind your own damn business when you ask him why he's walking around "your neighborhood" isn't a reason to beat him up (or kill him) either. Realistically, even if everything else up to that point had happened the same exact way, Martin would be alive today if someone hadn't decided to get hands on"

...is quite neutral, equally acknowledging the potential for blame on either side.

I know that I am not necessarily defending Zimmerman so much as attacking the broad jumping of the gun in terms of condemning him, for all manner of dumb and/or irrelevant reasons.

4/12/2012 7:33:06 PM

well said

4/12/2012 8:03:31 PM

Quote :

"George Zimmerman pursued Florida teenager Trayvon Martin as he tried to run home and provoked a confrontation before shooting Martin in the chest during a struggle, prosecutors contended in court documents made public Thursday."

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/12/11164328-prosecutors-contend-george-zimmerman-provoked-confrontation-with-trayvon-martin?lite

4/12/2012 8:50:45 PM

I thought Zimmerman was the "billy badass" of the anecdote.

4/12/2012 9:14:10 PM

Quote :

"I'm stunned that you and others would be talking smack about "billy bad asses" while defending the man who sits in his car with a loaded gun and follows "suspicious" children around his neighborhood. It baffles the mind."

There is a HUGE difference in following someone in order to give their location to the cops, and trying to fight someone for touching your bag of food at a fast food restaurant.

If you can't understand this, I actually feel sorry for you and any kids you have or may have in the future.


^^If there isn't any other serious evidence than what we know right now, I don't know how in the hell they plan on proving beyond a reasonable doubt who started a confrontation without any witnesses or video surveillance.

[Edited on April 12, 2012 at 10:06 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2012 10:04:25 PM

^if the person didnt do anything suspicious then there is no reason to follow them.

4/12/2012 10:21:26 PM

Once, again.

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO FOLLOW SOMEONE.

So, then, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, he started the actual physical confrontation once the two people met up.

Which without any witnesses or video, or any actual evidence, is going to be damn near impossible to do.

4/12/2012 10:30:33 PM

Well, it's certainly no less illegal than walking home from the Kwik-E-Mart.

In terms of threat evaluation, risk assessment, and general suspiciousness, I'd imagine most would rank following someone significantly higher than walking down the street looking at houses.

4/12/2012 10:38:06 PM

DaBird

Quote :

" Segments - large portions of the black community, especially professional race-baiters like Rev Al and Rev Jesse. I would like to see them stand up for all of the other young black men that are killed everyday by senseless violence, instead of waiting for the opportune time to turn it into a race debate"

IOW, it's not large portion of the black community that's picking and choosing, it's DaBird that's picking and choosing when to listen. You've demonstrated a "confirmation bias" here.

You realize that the black leaders on all levels are constantly concerned about crime in the black community? It's just that the media in general doesn't pay attention to this unless a white person is involved somehow.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/04/why-dont-black-people-protest-black-on-black-violence/255329/

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3911

Quote :

"I am on the side of letting justice be served. Lets see all of the evidence. Not edited together BS and innuendo. There should be a trial that should be unbiased."

That's exactly what you, me, all the blacks and other colors of people protesting, and Trayvon's parents wanted. Thankfully, due to these protests, your perspective was finally heard against a system that was otherwise more than willing to brush Trayvon's death under a rug.

4/12/2012 11:07:25 PM

Quote :

"[quote]George Zimmerman pursued Florida teenager Trayvon Martin as he tried to run home and provoked a confrontation before shooting Martin in the chest during a struggle, prosecutors contended in court documents made public Thursday."

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/12/11164328-prosecutors-contend-george-zimmerman-provoked-confrontation-with-trayvon-martin?lite[/quote]

The prosecutors are saying it was martin screaming for help too.

4/12/2012 11:10:49 PM

Saying.

Gonna be a hard time proving it.

For every expert they put on the stand saying it is, the defense will put just as many saying it isn't.

4/12/2012 11:28:08 PM

tacolu knows everything about the details of this case

and he will defend to the death this man's right to shoot black kids

because if we can't defend our homes from black kids

then we're all dead

4/13/2012 12:22:19 AM

Quote :

"For every expert they put on the stand saying it is, the defense will put just as many saying it isn't."

LOL, right.

There aren't any experts come out saying it was zimmerman.

I think zimmerman's old attorneys did claim it was Z screaming, but that's been it so far. NOt sure what his new attorney's stance is.

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 12:26 AM. Reason : ]

4/13/2012 12:26:40 AM

Quote :

"LOL, right. There aren't any experts come out saying it was zimmerman."

I'm really not saying this to be a dick.

But.

You apparently have no clue how a trial works.

There is such a thing as "paid testimony"

Where the defense PAYS "experts" to come testify and basically can testify to anything as long as its plausible and possible.

It happens all the time.


You think I am the one on the recording?

I'm going to pay an expert to come in and tell how its not me.

Doesn't mean it wasnt me, but reasonable doubt is all that matters.

And when evidence is "circumstantial" which is likely the case in this, expect this to happen.

As fucked up as it is, even defense attorneys will arrange this shit.



[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 1:09 AM. Reason : ,]

4/13/2012 1:06:22 AM

Quote :

"IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO FOLLOW SOMEONE."

If someone had followed Zimmerman, he probably would have fucking shot them, though. Would he have been standing his ground?

4/13/2012 1:12:48 AM

I thought this was fairly obvious, but it's on Zimmerman to prove that he was acting in self defense. He got let go the night it happened because the police, after a preliminary investigation, thought that he was acting in self defense. Following someone isn't illegal, but it's an action that is hard to reconcile with self defense for a judge/jury (particularly given that he was told not to follow by the police dispatcher - even if it isn't a mandatory command).

4/13/2012 5:19:56 AM

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/dershowitz-zimmerman-affidavit-irresponsible-and-unethical

4/13/2012 5:44:54 AM

^^ It's actually the opposite, which is the intended effect of "Stand your ground" and Castle Doctrine laws. The purpose of the law is to place the onus on the prosecution, not the defense, to avoid dragging people in legitimate self-defense shoots through long and expensive court battles to prove their innocence. The burden is on the prosecution to demonstrate that a given incident was *not* self-defense, not for the defense to prove that it was, before a case can be brought against them.

In this case, the evidence is questionable, at best, and damning, at worst. Far more often than not, the incident is relatively simple and more clearly defined, the kind of situation for which the law's legal shielding is designed to protect the innocent party.

4/13/2012 6:57:12 AM

^ To be fair, with or without Stand Your Ground, the onus is still on the prosecution to prove it was murder, and it's still on Zimmerman to prove the elements that make it self defense were present. The only thing Stand Your Ground provides is protection from prosecution and civil action unless the police have reasonable suspicion to believe it really wasn't self defense, and removes the requirement of retreat from an attack when you are someplace you are otherwise legally allowed to be. That's why people have been saying SYG, despite the ranting to the contrary, has almost nothing to do with this case, except perhaps in explaining why the police didn't arrest him immediately if they didn't buy his story. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law#Florida

4/13/2012 9:10:32 AM

Zimmerman demanded discipline in 2010 race-related beating for officers who investigated Martin shooting

http://news.yahoo.com/zimmerman-demanded-discipline-2010-race-related-beating-officers-051804872.html

Interesting behavior for a racist that gunned down someone in cold blood.

4/13/2012 12:50:18 PM

^Jesus.

If this thing actually makes it to trial, its going to be an absolute shit storm.

4/13/2012 1:03:53 PM

Quote :

"Interesting behavior for a racist that gunned down someone in cold blood."

What's interesting is that there's no evidence or proof of this whatsoever aside from a letter written to Daily Caller by an "anonymous family member" and a flyer with no proof that Zimmerman even read it or handled it. But, whatever, the right will believe anything if it confirms their suspicions. But that girlfriend of Trayvon who said he was being followed? Lying little cunt bitch.

Why's the right entirely on the side of Zimmerman? Wild guess, it's a perfect storm of three knee-jerk reactions. Somebody with a gun is being criticized for using it: Defend at all costs no matter how stupidly he used it. Somebody is being called a racist who isn't the NAACP? Better defend at all costs, can't let those liberals think racism still exists. Young black teenage male being portrayed as anything short of Mumia Jr? Better dig up as many irrelevant past details of his life as possible, because we all know that can't be true.


[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 2:50 PM. Reason : .]

4/13/2012 2:44:31 PM

Yep...you're still an idiot.

4/13/2012 2:59:17 PM

Brilliant retort, I guess you can go back to posting more shit from the Daily Caller that most tabloids wouldn't bother printing.

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 3:27 PM. Reason : .]

4/13/2012 3:27:41 PM

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: Imagine how many people would be alive if we didn't have violent reactions to stupid shit. Some guy following you around isn't an excuse to beat the guy up, no matter how sketched out you are. Equally, some kid telling you to mind your own damn business when you ask him why he's walking around "your neighborhood" isn't a reason to beat him up (or kill him) either. Realistically, even if everything else up to that point had happened the same exact way, Martin would be alive today if someone hadn't decided to get hands on."

No, there are plenty of ways Trayvon could have gotten shot without getting hands on. Trayvon might have tripped, and Zimmerman might have thought he was going for a gun, and BOOM! shot him. In fact, when news of this situation first spread, and people didn't know a scuffle had occurred, that's one of the scenarios that Zimmerman defenders were suggesting had happened.

You're trying to single out "violent reactions to stupid shit" as the culprit in all this when it is obvious that the culprit is the guy with a loaded gun who was somehow elevated to the role of neighborhood cop with no training and no interest in listening to 911 dispatchers apparently. Trayvon was killed by Zimmerman. Trayvon was not killed by a whole bunch of vague notions about civility and violence. He was killed by a bullet from a gun, which Zimmerman fired at him.

4/13/2012 3:31:13 PM

^^I take issue with you saying "the right" is on the side of Zimmerman. Presumably, you're referring to me.

I'm not on the side of Zimmerman. He should have been arrested and there should be a trial to begin with. Why it took two months to make this happen, I don't know.

But you, in typical fashion, have turned this into another opportunity to stir up a shit storm. In your mind, this had to be racism. There is no other explanation. Couldn't just be that this guy was a wannabe cop that got more than he bargained for, because that doesn't fit the Str8Foolish narrative. Before the details even came to light, you just knew this was racism on display. How? Because the victim was black, and that's all it takes for you to go into white knight mode.

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 3:40 PM. Reason : ]

4/13/2012 3:39:32 PM

Quote :

"I take issue with you saying "the right" is on the side of Zimmerman. Presumably, you're referring to me."

Mostly I'm referring to Hannity, Limbaugh, and most other right wing talk hosts, who have altogether joined together to spout exactly the rhetoric you are. Let's not forget the story you just quoted is from the Daily Calleer, headed by fucking Tucker Carlson.

Quote :

"How? Because the victim was black, and that's all it takes for you to go into white knight mode."

Uh no it was kind of the part where the police didn't investigate a grown man shooting an unarmed teenager, that was the first hint racism was going to be big in this story. This being in Florida didn't help.

Next was the part where Zimmerman made numerous 911 calls over the years to report black males in his neighborhood, and was reported by neighbors to be fixated on them.

Then there was the "fucking coons" remark and "these assholes always get away", plus his assumptions about the guy being on drugs or whatever.

And really, honestly, I find it very hard to believe that never had a white teenager in a hoodie walked through his neighborhood before, so something tells me there's a reason this one seemed rather suspicious and appeared to be "on drugs" and "up to something."

And please, speaking of knee-jerk 'white knighting', can you name a single instance in the past 20 years where the right actually acknowledged a claim of racism against a (non Herman Cain) black person as being legitimate? A single time they haven't gone straight to accusing the person of pulling the race card, before ANY evidence comes in?

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 4:10 PM. Reason : .]

4/13/2012 3:41:30 PM

Quote :

"No, there are plenty of ways Trayvon could have gotten shot without getting hands on. Trayvon might have tripped, and Zimmerman might have thought he was going for a gun, and BOOM! shot him. In fact, when news of this situation first spread, and people didn't know a scuffle had occurred, that's one of the scenarios that Zimmerman defenders were suggesting had happened. "

Of course that wouldn't have been "everything else up to that point [happening] the same exact way". So yes, you are correct that if the scenario had occurred in a different manner, Martin could have been shot under different circumstances. Equally, if the scenario had occurred in a different manner, Martin and Zimmerman could have wound up having a laugh and a bag of skittles and glass of tea over a silly misunderstanding.

Quote :

"You're trying to single out "violent reactions to stupid shit" as the culprit in all this when it is obvious that the culprit is the guy with a loaded gun who was somehow elevated to the role of neighborhood cop with no training and no interest in listening to 911 dispatchers apparently."

Except it isn't. If someone hadn't gotten hands on (whether that was Martin or Zimmerman) there is no evidence at all to suggest that anyone would have been killed. After all, he's apparently called the cops like this plenty of times before without any incident. And presumably he's owned a CCP for longer than the past 2 months, and managed to act as a neighborhood watch guy without shooting anyone up until this point.

Quote :

"Uh no it was kind of the part where the police didn't investigate a grown man shooting an unarmed teenager, that was the first hint racism was going to be big in this story. "

Excepting of course that they did investigate. Remember, the claim that he wasn't even brought in for questioning was false. That he was released after the initial questioning, doesn't mean there wasn't any investigating.

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 4:45 PM. Reason : asdf]

4/13/2012 4:44:35 PM

Quote :

"Excepting of course that they did investigate. Remember, the claim that he wasn't even brought in for questioning was false. That he was released after the initial questioning, doesn't mean there wasn't any investigating."

I can't beleive you can call what the police did with the crime scene "investigating" with a straight face.

4/13/2012 4:50:33 PM

Quote :

"I can't beleive you can call what the police did with the crime scene "investigating" with a straight face. "

Given that something as simple to verify as the police not bringing Zimmerman in for questioning turned out to be a made up story, I'm not inclined to believe anything we hear about how the police did or didn't handle the crime scene that doesn't come out of this trial. Or at least something that comes with video or pictoral evidence.

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 5:08 PM. Reason : zsfdg]

4/13/2012 5:08:04 PM

I think you're being dishonest. One point you're claiming that the police did investigate, and the next point you're saying that there's no way to really know if they investigated until the trial.

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: If someone hadn't gotten hands on (whether that was Martin or Zimmerman) there is no evidence at all to suggest that anyone would have been killed."

People get killed by accident all the time.

A possibly paranoid man with a loaded gun, a history of violence, no official neighborhood watch training, following a strange kid in the dark against the advice of the dispatcher and the basic rules of neighborhood watch... That's not a good/safe scenario right there, and there are any number of ways that somebody could end up hurt.

4/13/2012 9:53:31 PM

Quote :

"A possibly paranoid man with a loaded gun, a history of violence, no official neighborhood watch training, following a strange kid in the dark against the advice of the dispatcher and the basic rules of neighborhood watch... That's not a good/safe scenario right there, and there are any number of ways that somebody could end up hurt. "

Safe scenario?

Perhaps not. But entirely legal which is all that matters.

And while we are at it, don't forget to add that the person he was following also has a history of criminal activity.

4/13/2012 10:39:35 PM

^trayvon wasn't doing anything illegal during the night of his murder. zimmerman isn't a cop and had no reason to follow the kid.

4/13/2012 11:33:58 PM

Zimmerman can follow who the fuck he wants, up to the point that it becomes harassing/threatening/stalker behavior.

One of them got handsy/threatening. That is illegal. That is what matters, and what needs to be figured out.

4/13/2012 11:37:43 PM

if trayvon reacted, in any way, to being followed, he was standing his ground.



unfortunately, zimmerman had a gun...

4/13/2012 11:48:07 PM

dude you can walk down a public street and keep an eye on anyone you want. that is just not debatable.

"standing your ground" doesn't mean you can fucking whack anyone doing whatever. FL simply has no duty to retreat anywhere that you lawfully are. It's like castle doctrine, except you don't have to be in your house. They both were lawfully walking down the road. By your logic, they were both just "standing their ground" and it's just an unfortunate circumstance that there was a killing.

Again, what matters is who provoked/escalated the altercation, and no, just walking around your neighborhood watching someone does not count.

4/13/2012 11:55:57 PM

Quote :

"Zimmerman can follow who the fuck he wants, up to the point that it becomes harassing/threatening/stalker behavior."

Who determines where 'the point' is? Based on Martin's conversation with his girlfriend and the fact he ran, it seems obvious Martin felt harassed and threatened.

Zimmerman can follow who the fuck he wants, up to the point that it became harassing/threatening/stalker behavior.

4/14/2012 12:10:35 AM

So it's basically the adult version of:

4/14/2012 12:35:42 AM

Reminder that tacolu said this in another thread:

Quote :

"Yes, because saying the word nigger automatically makes you a racist. Some people use it to describe a certain type of black person."

So when you think about responding to him, just remember that you're talking to a real, southern, "I think it's okay to refer to black people as niggers and also I defend george zimmerman to the death" racist.

4/14/2012 2:10:11 AM

http://www.ksdk.com/video/1559306579001/1/RAW-VIDEO-Zimmerman-Appears-in-Court

The judge didn't even recognize Zimmerman when he came into court.

4/14/2012 6:31:19 AM