7/8/2015 1:18:46 PM

NCAA angry about Confederate Flags
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/2007-01-18-confederate-flag-issue_x.htm

[/parody]

7/8/2015 3:28:13 PM

BlackJesus

If I bring some watermelon and you bring 2x craft beers, can we make up and be friends?

[Edited on July 8, 2015 at 4:18 PM. Reason : a]

7/8/2015 4:17:01 PM

http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/national/south/2015/07/confederate_flag_debate_wears_on_as_gop_mounts_opposition


Ha!

I'd offer to keep the rebel flags up on state property, if these idiots would agree to acknowledge the continuing effects of jim crow on systemic racism on blacks and other minorities today.

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 12:57 AM. Reason : ]

7/9/2015 12:56:17 AM

Worth the quick 4 minute watch:
http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4543474/rep-jenny-horne-confederate-flag-speech

7/9/2015 1:01:47 AM

^I agree with what she said...

but getting emotional, yelling and screaming as a knee-jerk reaction when the cameras are on you doesn't change anything. She's part of the backwards state that had the flag flying in the first place. I know everyone wants some "feel-good" legislature to pass after the shooting but whether the flag comes down now or in a year, its already too late. SC sucks

7/9/2015 1:27:17 AM

It's not really too late, it's usually never too late to undo past mistakes.

Flag should have never been put up considering why it was put up in the first place. The meaning to white people may have drifted somewhat during that time, but the meaning to blacks has mostly stayed the same (for obvious reasons).

I agree too the emotion is off-putting to me, but judging by Facebook, it seems that most people respond more to emotion than anything else, so this serves its purpose.

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 1:38 AM. Reason : ]

7/9/2015 1:34:29 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/07/09/south-carolina-house-votes-to-remove-confederate-flag-from-statehouse-grounds/

House and Senate passed the bill... looks like it's coming down.

Suck it, racists..

7/9/2015 1:42:02 AM

Quote :

"effects of jim crow on systemic racism on blacks and other minorities today."

What a joke. Unless you live in bumfuck Georgia or Andersonville SC there is no on going conspiracy to hold black people down because of their skin color. Sounds like an excuse.

I'm glad the flag is down. Now I can stop hearing people bitch about it and we can go back to working on real issues like criminal justice reform, the economy, and keeping the koch brothers from destroying the environment to fund their oligarchy.

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 1:58 AM. Reason : L]

7/9/2015 1:54:30 AM

^ 1) even if what you're saying were true, just based purely on group dynamics and math, there would still be systemic bias:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-bias/

Any uncorrected process that's influenced by mob rule or "tyranny of the majority" will always, 100% of the time, feedback cyclically to suppress the non-majority groups. This will happen in another 50 years to white people when they're not the majority group anymore. It's just group dynamics

2) You and I both know that there are more than enough racists in positions of power to cause problems

3) Here's a decent, basic, simulator that demonstrates both of the above principles:
http://ncase.me/polygons/

7/9/2015 1:58:56 AM

So you don't see in any way shape or form how shit like the Ferguson looting/riots/clusterfuck would actually cultivate systemic racism instead of accusing white people of being racist due to skin color.

The simulator is interesting...
Though until you can understand why the triangle would want to move if less than x% of of neighbors are like them, you can't fix the problem.

Either way I disagree with forcing segregation for the sake of segregation. On the flipside Charlotte would be an interesting case study of desegregation in neighborhoods like plaza midwood, villa heights, and NoDa. I was literally told while cooling down after a run that "fifteen years ago I'd never see no white boy walking down this street"

They simply city made these neighborhoods attractive places to live and whites moves into and became neighbors with the traditional black population that historically lived in these areas

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 2:34 AM. Reason : Ly]

7/9/2015 2:16:23 AM

Yeah, i can see how there's a backlash from rioting, but the problems of racism existed before that, and trend forward to this day.

You can literally plot a trend line against economic achievement, academic achievement, professional achievement, etc. of the black community and it mostly smoothly traces back to Jim Crow era America. It's not like they started off wealthy and empowered, then started rioting and lost those things. They never had those things*, were actively prevented from getting those things, and in the attempt to gain them, some people rioted.

Even the response to the riots is dripping with systemic bias-- you are attributing propensity to riot as an intrinsic property of blackness, but something tells me you don't attribute riots by predominantly white groups to whiteness... you don't attribute propensity to be a serial killer as an intrinsic property of whiteness...

And to point out these things doesn't mean i'm saying you're racist. It's just how our dumb animals brains process information, when blacks are only ~10% of the population, and whites are ~70% of the population, you're going to naturally have very few representative samples of blacks compared to whites, because youre significantly less likely to encounter a cross section of the black community. (another example is Asians-- you can go to India and China and see reams of dumb asians wallowing in feces and garbage, but we only see the smart, motivated ones that immigrated here, so we think they're all smart).

The whole point of social technology (which politics is a form of technology-- it's a human construct to achieve a specific purpose) is to allow us to act beyond these dumb animal instincts. If you want to be an intelligent human, you would try to act beyond your gut-reaction, and use some organized framework to understand the world around you, which means seeing how VA loans denied to black soldiers up to the 60s results in less wealth and lower rates of home ownership to blacks in the present day, and how this denied-wealth affects all kinds of things about a group, rather than thinking "man, blacks must just naturally be poor and lazy".

* unless you count the thriving communities burned to the ground at the turn of last century

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 2:38 AM. Reason : ]

7/9/2015 2:34:44 AM

https://www.facebook.com/TheYoungTurks/videos/10152970493514205/

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 7:06 AM. Reason : ,]

7/9/2015 7:06:14 AM

^^ I see you but you are arguing with someone who unironically cites the bell curve

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 9:03 AM. Reason : X]

7/9/2015 9:02:37 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/09/us/south-carolina-jenny-horne-speech/index.html

A+ I love her

7/9/2015 9:07:09 AM

Quote :

"how shit like the Ferguson looting/riots/clusterfuck would actually cultivate systemic racism"

Yeah that's not why there's racism you racist shitbag.

7/9/2015 9:11:07 AM

Can we also mention the fact that for months Ferguson was as peaceful as any protest anywhere? And then it was meant with absurd militarized force...

If you want to be a racist shitbag at least cite a legitimate riot like Baltimore..

7/9/2015 9:18:28 AM

Quote :

"you are attributing propensity to riot as an intrinsic property of blackness, but something tells me you don't attribute riots by predominantly white groups to whiteness"

The propensity to riot is an intrinsic property of poverty or intoxication + mob mentality.

The racial aspect isn't brought up in the white people hockey/football riots because it isn't really racially exclusive, and the benefit of the majority is even if 90% of the rioters are white, it's considered representative of the population and race isn't mentioned (the double standard with how the media reports it is pretty sad though).

7/9/2015 10:15:15 AM

You are right synapse racism exists because the evil mean white people in power hate black people for their skin color and want to hold the poor black folk down so that they can have an excuse to throw them in prison when the resort to criminal activities. Eur-fucking-rika!

I really can’t tell if you are naïve or just an idiot. If you can’t understand how the actions of some black people that are subsequently highlighted on the news (i.e. looting/rioting in Ferguson/Baltimore, showing some gang members mugshot arrested for murder, and other acts of thuggery) don’t reinforce or generate racist attitudes then you are a dumbass. Hell I lost track of the “campus alert” e-mails I received about “dark male x’xx” height wearing blah blah blah yielding a knife/gun rob students at so and so street”. I’m pretty sure the dark male was not Sudeep the indian kid from my engineering class…

Like I said before unless you are in bumfuck town deep in the south the issue isn’t a skin color thing in modern society. Funny how in a modern country of Arabians, hispanis, Indians, Asians, etc it is the only poor black people that the “man” chooses to pick on.
NyM410 you may want to check your timeline. Ferguson devolved into rioting and pillaging in a matter of days. Sure the escalation/militarization by police created a positive feedback loop that exasperated the situation. Let’s not forget the famous quote “Let’s burn this bitch down”.

On the flip side the mayor of Baltimore intentionally withheld the national guard and the situation still got out of control.

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 11:24 AM. Reason : a]

7/9/2015 11:23:05 AM

Quote :

"If you can’t understand how the actions of some black people that are subsequently highlighted on the news (i.e. looting/rioting in Ferguson/Baltimore, showing some gang members mugshot arrested for murder, and other acts of thuggery) don’t reinforce or generate racist attitudes then you are a dumbass."

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? That's on the idiots who hold the views that skin color inherently has more to do with this kind of stuff than societal marginalization and most importantly, socioeconomic factors.

It's certainly not why racism exists. Racism exists for a myriad of factors including the need to hold someone else accountable for your own failings. In the end someone who becomes racist by a misunderstanding of why riots occur were not free of those racial opinions beforehand.

In 2014 alone there were major riots in Ferguson, Rio, Istanbul, Hanoi, Madrid, Mombassa and Xinjiang among many others. You know the common denominator? I'll give you a hint; It's not race or ethnicity.

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 12:06 PM. Reason : X]

7/9/2015 12:04:02 PM

HUR needs actual black people in his life.

Can we make that a career? Like, pay black people to hang out with him?

It's nobody's dream job, but there's a market.

7/9/2015 12:38:14 PM

Quote :

"If you can’t understand how the actions of some black people that are subsequently highlighted on the news (i.e. looting/rioting in Ferguson/Baltimore, showing some gang members mugshot arrested for murder, and other acts of thuggery) don’t reinforce or generate racist attitudes then you are a dumbass."

No, those are the actions of certain individuals, not a certain race, and it is incredibly naive of you to even think that (dare I say, even racist).

Riots happen all the time, all around the world, among all different races. Hell, the Boston Tea Party was a violent riot by white people against the oppression of those in power. I dont see anything different about what happened in Ferguson or Baltimore. I dont condone violence but sometimes there is no other way to bring attention to what's going on.

7/9/2015 12:41:30 PM

Quote :

"Like I said before unless you are in bumfuck town deep in the south the issue isn’t a skin color thing in modern society."

I mean it's a factor in non-bumfuck areas too, but I agree it is definitely not an issue to the extent that the media/Facebook activists make it out to be.

Remember the "hands up, don't shoot" where it was reported Michael Brown was shot execution-style trying to surrender? It was proven that was a lie that never happened. The riots, protests, black lives matter, it all gets stirred up before the facts are even known.

A criminal assaulted a cop and got shot, how is that something to protest? The people up in arms about that are more racist than anyone... trying to find racism and hate where there isn't any just to stir up more outrage.

If I was a foreigner looking at the USA news or Facebook, I would think America is a racist shit-hole where white cops shoot black kids on sight.

7/9/2015 12:45:27 PM

Quote :

"No, those are the actions of certain individuals, not a certain race, and it is incredibly naive of you to even think that (dare I say, even racist)."

Exactly.

I was trying to explain earlier how racist it was of the bleeding heart liberals to justify the Baltimore riots as if it was part of a protest movement or representative of the black communities reaction to Freddie Gray's murder.

They are looking down on blacks and holding them to a different standard. Criminals are criminals, they are not representative of an entire race.

7/9/2015 12:49:37 PM

^ did you read both the DOJ reports on Ferguson? The one that absolved the officer AND the one that clearly outlined years of systemic racial abuse?

7/9/2015 12:50:22 PM

pretty hard to stay ignorant about systematic racism in 2015, but damn if some of you aren't trying your hardest

7/9/2015 1:14:33 PM

Look, guys, I think it's important we all try to understand one another here.

There are a lot of white people who feel like they can't say what they think or feel, like society is telling them: your instincts are uniquely bad, and you're not welcome here.

Really, all this shit that HUR is on about is shit that we all have thought, inklings we all have had. Of course, we recognize those instincts really are bad, and we get the fuck over it. But some people don't recognize that...they think they're the only ones who feel that way, and it makes them crazy.

I was recently a bit shocked when a black female doctor walked in to do my check-up. It was okay--I mentally laughed at myself for being surprised, for being so racist. But people who can't cope with that, especially folks with no hope of ever attending medical school, will go home and rant about affirmative action. They don't know that it's okay to have bad instincts. They don't know how to get the fuck over it.

We have to be honest. Otherwise, they think they're right...that there really is a conspiracy that only they can see.

7/9/2015 1:15:42 PM

Quote :

" societal marginalization and most importantly, socioeconomic factors. "

LOL, sounds like the excuse of the "man holding the black folk down"

Quote :

"Hell, the Boston Tea Party was a violent riot by white people against the oppression of those in power. I dont see anything different about what happened in Ferguson or Baltimore."

Except for the riot in Ferguson was triggered after a thug was killed by police after robbing a C-store and having a tussle with the police.
Sure the guy didn't deserve to die in this situation but he wasn't exactly a model black citizen who was slain by police why innocently going
about his normal business. The real issue at hand is the on-going police brutality that has escalated since 9/11 and effects people of all
races and not just black people. I can see though, however, that this escalation could be the hair that broke the camels back in a subset
of the population that has historically been targeted unproportionally by the police.

Regardless instead of fully opening a dialouge on overall police brutality the end result of Michael Brown was just to drag through the weeds
the whole mindset that the mean white establishment is picking on the poor innocent black folk again.

Quote :

"Remember the "hands up, don't shoot" where it was reported Michael Brown was shot execution-style trying to surrender? It was proven that was a lie that never happened. The riots, protests, black lives matter, it all gets stirred up before the facts are even known. "

Dead On.

If anything the black guy who was choked to death in NYC after getting caught selling illegal cigarettes was a cause to really rally the flag
of protest.

Quote :

"trying to find racism and hate where there isn't any just to stir up more outrage."

yeah this seems to be the truth. People like BlackJesus and synapse are part of this movement.
Any time anything white on black happens it seems the white person is assumed to be racially motivated until proven otherwise.

Quote :

" The one that absolved the officer AND the one that clearly outlined years of systemic racial abuse?"

Sure though this goes into my whole argument above about the hair breaking the camel's back. Either way Michael Brown was a thug
and the looting/rioting was counter-productive to the "cause".

7/9/2015 1:18:12 PM

Quote :

"Like I said before unless you are in bumfuck town deep in the south the issue isn’t a skin color thing in modern society."

This is patently false.

Interpersonal racism is pretty much at the point where we can ignore it, which is what I think you're talking about.

Institutional racism is still pervasive and prevalent, which we can't ignore. There's many, many studies that show merely for being black, blacks get treated differently in hiring, firing, education and the judicial system. This isn't imaginary or only relegated to bumfuck towns, this is all over the country.

7/9/2015 1:18:17 PM

Quote :

"Not everyone, though, was happy. Michael French, 43, a contractor who lives outside Columbia, came with his son Chandler, 17, to take a picture of the flag before it came down. “Biblically speaking, anytime there’s something that causes division among men, it should be done away with,” said Mr. French, who is white. “But I don’t think that applies here, because there will always be something else” — that is, something else for protesters to protest about. Next, “they’re going to want to take down the Confederate monument,” his son predicted. “Everybody wants to be a victim.” "

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/us/relief-and-resentment-after-confederate-flag-vote-in-south-carolina.html

Ha, funny how they'll disregard a religious viewpoint to support a racist one.

Quote :

"Tamela Stevenson, 49, who is black, posed with her children, too, wearing a big smile. She said her grandmother Annie Mae Robinson had always told her that the flag would never come down in Ms. Robinson’s lifetime. She was right: She died 23 years ago. “This just marks the beginning of South Carolina going forward and being with the rest of the world,” Ms. Stevenson said. “I know it won’t change everything, like the way people feel. But going forward, in the future, I think it will help.”"

Ha, NYT interviewed a homeless man about this too:

Quote :

"“It’s coming down!” a homeless man, Louis Richardson, 56, shouted to no one in particular as he moved jauntily up Main Street, his belongings in a couple of grocery bags slung over his shoulder. Mr. Richardson, who is African-American, said the flag weighed heavily on the hearts of black people here as a symbol of “slavery and oppression.” “It’s a new generation now,” he said, referring to younger people of all races. “They want change.”"

I think this is a really good perspective too, racism is more than just a mild inconvenience:

Quote :

"“From my knowledge, it don’t represent anything good,” Mr. Bailey said. He said he understood that for some whites, it represented “respect for their ancestors and all that.” But he also spoke of the racism he had experienced in his life in South Carolina: being forced to sit in the balconies of segregated movie theaters, or working as a teenager in a bowling alley here, resetting pins and having to jump out of the way as malicious whites hurled bowling balls at him."

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 1:31 PM. Reason : ]

7/9/2015 1:28:37 PM

Quote :

"^ did you read both the DOJ reports on Ferguson? The one that absolved the officer AND the one that clearly outlined years of systemic racial abuse?"

From what I remember, blacks were stopped and searched more frequently than whites, and the police force was not diverse nor involved in the community?

I'm not saying there weren't or aren't racist cops, but I really don't think a law-abiding black citizen would have to worry about anything.

Either way I consider Ferguson bumfuck and not representative of the USA.

7/9/2015 1:29:07 PM

What do you want us to say? Young, black males are responsible for a lot of crimes, and that fact contributes to their interactions with the police?

I'll say that cause it's true and obvious to everyone.

But there's a ton of reasons why they're doing the crime (and why they don't get away with it like other folks). Also, none of it justifies police brutality.

Is everybody good now?

7/9/2015 1:37:12 PM

Quote :

"but I really don't think a law-abiding black citizen would have to worry about anything."

you know any black people? or at least read any black writers?

or even watch Dave Chappelle's stand-up specials?

or been around black people and cops at the same time?

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 1:49 PM. Reason : .]

7/9/2015 1:40:00 PM

I don't understand why pointing out that a segment of the population being marginalized is taken as saying "the white man is keeping them down." It can be by anything.

In Brazil it was the govt spending billions on sporting events and going through civilian workers like candy that led to the feeling of marginalization. Here it is the criminal justice system that contributes.

I really think there has to be a level of delusion involved if you really think there is equal access to opportunity in this country across socioeconomic levels. White, black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. upward mobility is hard.

7/9/2015 1:50:45 PM

7/9/2015 2:08:27 PM

Quote :

"Institutional racism is still pervasive and prevalent, which we can't ignore. There's many, many studies that show merely for being black, blacks get treated differently in hiring, firing, education and the judicial system. This isn't imaginary or only relegated to bumfuck towns, this is all over the country."

This. It has proven time and time again by study after study after study - by "what would you do" type TV shows, by institutional studies and trials, by statistical analysis, by normal people speaking out, by literally every manner of presentation, and yet people are still blind to this. And no, it isnt just affecting African Americans.

So to state that minorities will be treated the same as whites just by being good model citizens is an absolute joke.

7/9/2015 2:28:20 PM

Quote :

"but I really don't think a law-abiding black citizen would have to worry about anything"

Really? You really believe that? That's not to say that there are lot of cops/employers/bank lenders, etc. etc. wouldn't discriminate or treat a black person any different than a white person, but there are also lots that would. To deny that is true ignorance, to the point that it's not really worth debating with you.

7/9/2015 2:33:40 PM

Quote :

"It has proven time and time again by study after study after study - by "what would you do" type TV shows, by institutional studies and trials, by statistical analysis, by normal people speaking out, by literally every manner of presentation, and yet people are still blind to this."

So really the issue is more of a subconscious biasness of society rather than people choosing to "not liking black people" as is often accused.

What is the solution? Regardless of the socioeconomic/historical factors the behaviors of a subset of the black community i.e. thugs/gangsters,
shit like Ferguson, and then the "outrage" of many black leaders that too often are trigger-happy to pull out the race card before the facts
are known on many white-on-black incidents merely reinforce this bias.

Any long-term solution is going to take changes not just from the establishment/"the-man" but also involve some house-keeping within the black community.

7/9/2015 3:16:28 PM

Quote :

"So really the issue is more of a subconscious biasness of society rather than people choosing to "not liking black people" as is often accused."

it is a subconscious bias in some people, and in others it actually is people "not liking black people". I don't know where you live (are you the one from oregon?), but there are plenty of people like this. If you don't believe it, I have a lot of family and their friends that I could introduce you to.

Quote :

"some house-keeping within the black community"

what do you mean and what's your suggestions?

7/9/2015 3:22:08 PM

I got mugged by a black guy on Fayetteville Street.

I don't know about you guys, but I immediately contacted ShinAntonio to suggest he and his people get to work on some "house-keeping."

7/9/2015 3:27:12 PM

IBT "rap music is bad, let's change rap music"

7/9/2015 3:36:22 PM

Yeah, I had to stop listening to Chief Keef cause I kept getting pregnant and assaulting people.

And, every time I see a Confederate flag, I have to say the N-word three times and go to Chick-fil-A.

7/9/2015 3:47:55 PM

Quote :

"trying to find racism and hate where there isn't any just to stir up more outrage. yeah this seems to be the truth. People like BlackJesus and synapse are part of this movement."

Truth. I really had to look hard to find your racist as fuck posts I quoted on the last page

7/9/2015 3:52:24 PM

Also here's the latest campus crime report for you HUR:

Quote :

"The NCSU Police Department was notified on 7/9/15 of a robbery and assault of a non-affiliated subject while on the green-way trail near Main Campus Drive and Achievement Drive. This incident is alleged to have occurred at approximately 11:00 PM on 7/8/2015. The victim advised that the assailant is described as W/M, approximately 42 years of age, bald, approximately 5’11” and 185 lbs"

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 4:00 PM. Reason : we'll give you a bit to process that]

7/9/2015 4:00:29 PM

Quote :

"light complexion male"

I guess some CEO's called and the bitch decided to listen. Since blacks saying its racist wasn't enough.

7/9/2015 4:08:34 PM

Quote :

"Really? You really believe that? That's not to say that there are lot of cops/employers/bank lenders, etc. etc. wouldn't discriminate or treat a black person any different than a white person, but there are also lots that would. To deny that is true ignorance, to the point that it's not really worth debating with you."

Great strawman. My post was in the context of the Ferguson Police Department. My point being, if you don’t break the law, you don’t have to be afraid of police officers as a minority. Are you more likely to get stopped and searched by a police department with a history of racism? Yes, but if you don’t break the law, there is nothing they can do to you that suggests your black life doesn’t matter.

Quote :

"I really think there has to be a level of delusion involved if you really think there is equal access to opportunity in this country across socioeconomic levels. White, black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. upward mobility is hard."

Again with the straw man. What does socioeconomic status have to do with race? Obviously poor people have it harder than rich people. Yes black people are generally less wealthy given the history of slavery and oppression, and yes there will always be racists, and yes the majority-race employer will subconsciously have a bias towards candidates also in the majority-race (this is human nature unfortunately). To correct this problem there are laws and tax incentives to make it more fair for minorities. Is it perfect? No, but America is still the land of opportunity and the greatest country on Earth no matter what the color of your skin is.

Quote :

"So to state that minorities will be treated the same as whites just by being good model citizens is an absolute joke."

If yall would like I can get a picture of a straw man saying "racism doesn't exist" and you can argue with it instead.

I stated that law abiding citizens in Ferguson are not going to have to worry about the racist cops. Sure if they went to the KKK bank they may get a loan denied, that wasn't the context of my post though.

7/9/2015 4:32:46 PM

Quote :

"My point being, if you don’t break the law, you don’t have to be afraid of police officers as a minority. Are you more likely to get stopped and searched by a police department with a history of racism? Yes, but if you don’t break the law, there is nothing they can do to you that suggests your black life doesn’t matter."

because it's totally cool for people to get searched without cause. as long as the racist assholes don't find anything, what's the problem?

7/9/2015 4:41:14 PM

^^First, it's not cool that they would get searched without cause. And second, although you don't seem to think they should have anything worry about if they're not breaking law, i'm sure that's not always the case. They can always find something. And let's take the Charleston example... they found a broken tail light and unpaid child support, and shortly after, the cop executed the guy. But I know, that's just a strawman

[Edited on July 9, 2015 at 5:15 PM. Reason : ]

7/9/2015 4:50:26 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/09/magazine/the-souths-heritage-is-so-much-more-than-a-flag.html

7/9/2015 4:51:02 PM

^^I'm also unclear how anyone could suggest "don't break the law" as a reasonable expectation.

There's like fifty billion laws.

7/9/2015 4:52:55 PM