Jesus I need to stop reading GOLO comments.

Quote :

"You have to understand.. this has been a multi-year plan to clear out the "undesirable" mental health patients and create a private park for a select few elites. That's why they all moved into Boylan Heights over the last few years and started to renovate the old homes.. they were banking on having the park to play in along with greatly increasing their property value."

Yeah, it couldn't have been the great big historical buildings being sold for cheap as balls back in the 90s. That had nothing to do with people buying and renovating those homes.

11/30/2012 3:29:21 PM

lol. People are so angry at everything. THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.

11/30/2012 3:44:50 PM

I love that talk of the "elites" dominates GOLO on that one.

11/30/2012 3:47:53 PM

its sad when people use "intellectuals" or "intellectual types" like its some kind of insult

11/30/2012 3:52:50 PM

On another note, with Publix announcing that it is entering the Raleigh market, I will just point out that they have a history of being willing to go into urban areas, building stores downtown in Orlando, Miami, Atlanta, Ft. Lauderdale and currently considering one in Nashville.

11/30/2012 3:58:11 PM

That's great, East and South Raleigh need some grocery stores

11/30/2012 4:00:00 PM

Wow. Didn't even see that story.

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/print-edition/2012/11/30/upscale-publix-moving-into-local-market.html

11/30/2012 4:02:41 PM

It takes balls to build a store there, no doubt.

11/30/2012 10:25:08 PM

http://www.wral.com/boosters-pledge-3m-to-raleigh-for-dix-park-planning/11838394/

12/3/2012 3:20:27 PM

Quote :

"The Fletcher Foundation committed $1 million toward the planning effort, and Gregory Poole Jr., a retired developer who leads Dix Visionaries, said other supporters would donate another $2 million to draft a master plan for the park."

Yikes. That's a lot of money for "planning".

The lease is $500,000/year(pretty much a gift from the state...$500,000 wouldn't be enough to rent a 7/11), rising by 1.5% each year. The cost of improvements and maintenance is yet to be announced though.

[Edited on December 3, 2012 at 3:35 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2012 3:30:57 PM

the environmental investigation alone will eat away most of that planning

12/3/2012 3:36:01 PM

Quote :

"$500,000 wouldn't be enough to rent a 7/11"

wat

12/3/2012 3:36:06 PM

Since when is Publix "upscale"? Every one I've been into seemed pretty pedestrian.

What we should be getting down here is a Wegman's. Hook that shit up!!

12/3/2012 3:58:07 PM

I think like any other grocery store it probably depends on the individual location. I mean, I haven't been in hardly any grocery stores I consider "upscale" in general, but within the realm of grocery stores, the Publix locations near me are the cleanest and most up-to-date in my area and that includes a nice location that is directly in our downtown.

I've been to plenty of Wegman's and while they have been nice. I don't know that I would consider them any more "upscale" than the Publix near us...they're just bigger. And by being bigger they have more things, but that doesn't necessarily make them any fancier or more upscale.

[Edited on December 3, 2012 at 4:05 PM. Reason : ]

12/3/2012 4:02:26 PM

Dear Raleigh,

There are other cardinal directions besides North that you could develop in. Don't neglect the rest of us, bro. That is all.

12/3/2012 4:07:42 PM

lots of planning workshops going in in Raleigh right now if anyone is interested. I-440 tonight and Blount/Person St. corridor next week.

12/3/2012 4:10:51 PM

I like how Bev Perdue realized in the last week her only legacy was going to be the first female governor..that got nothing done. Trying to compensate now by pushing this through.

It is great for the City of Raleigh, the state is getting screwed. Raleigh is going to continue to sprawl, that park would be a huge attraction and a huge preservation of open space.

People have overcome worse obstacles to build things, NYC had to condemn and evict to get the land back for Central Park. It was a pig farm among other things.

Quote :

"Before the construction of the park could start, the area had to be cleared of its inhabitants,[17] most of whom were quite poor and either free African Americans or residents of English or Irish origin. Most of them lived in small villages, such as Seneca Village, Harsenville, or the Piggery District; or else in the school and convent at Mount St. Vincent's Academy. Around 1,600 residents occupying the area at the time, were evicted under the rule of eminent domain during 1857. Seneca Village and parts of the other communities were razed to make room"

The state rammed through a law a few years ago stripping the City of Raleigh's authority to approve or deny plans for state buildings in Raleigh, so in theory they can not keep the state from using it for offices, but if the state wants to sell or auction it that's another situation.

They could make it hell for any future private owner to build on, they can rezone it as parkland, give it historic status, deny permits, classify it as open space, the threat of any of that would scare private investors away and devalue the land, so the city is not out of bullets if this does not work. Pat McRory is not going to do anything to help this along so hopefully something can be worked out soon.

[Edited on December 3, 2012 at 4:24 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2012 4:16:42 PM

Based on the (admittedly few) Publix stores I've been in, I didn't get an "upscale" vibe either. Sure, the stores were clean, large, and well-stocked, but didn't seem overtly fancy. Maybe that was just the locations I've happened to visit, all of them in Florida. I think Harris Teeter is still more "upscale" than those Publix.

Perhaps, though, they'll enter the market at a higher point here. I also fully expect that they'll buy out Teeter at some point which will make them a major force (Teeter has just over 200 stores, almost none of which compete with Publix currently, plus that would give Publix an entry point into the Washington, DC and Northern Virginia market).

12/3/2012 4:36:59 PM

I've been to a few Publix around the Atlanta area, and I really don't understand what makes people think they're so special. Sure, I can get a sandwich made or pick up a box of fried chicken, but that pales in comparison to what I can get at most Harris Teeter stores.

12/3/2012 6:07:39 PM

I've been to Publix in Florida and also didn't get the big deal. It's weird because I've met people who seemed proud to be in an area that had Publix. It's lower quality than Harris Teeter and higher than Food Lion... what's so special about that? Some people have said they have "great prepared food." Really, if that's the standard, how good could it be?

12/3/2012 8:50:05 PM

Glad to see I'm not the only one with this viewpoint.

12/3/2012 10:53:46 PM

Publix, in my view, is exactly like Kroger in terms of its brand identity. Does not touch Harris Teeter.

12/4/2012 2:50:07 AM

I don't see what is so special about Harris Teeter though either and I grew up pretty much going to them primarily since I grew up in Charlotte. But then again I don't have any super positive lean toward any particular grocery store. As long as the stores themselves are clean and they provide a decent variety of fresh produce it works for me. What defines an "upscale" grocery store to you all?

I don't buy prepared food hardly ever at a grocery store. We mainly get produce, milk, eggs, etc. More whole ingredients and then make our own meals so maybe that is the difference?

12/4/2012 8:22:12 AM

I think it should be a food lion, poor people love some food lion....10 for $10 FTMFW

12/4/2012 8:51:04 AM

^^I doubt I'm alone in this impression, but Harris Teeter has a much more upscale appearance than any other grocery store (in NC at least) and they have a much wider variety of specialty items, international items and items in general, that you simply will not find at a Kroger or Food Lion.

12/4/2012 9:22:59 AM

I guess Harris Teeter is considered upscale because they keep them clean, odorless, and they stock a lot of premium items. Good luck finding stuff like San Pellegrino and dried currants in your average Food Lion. I typically end up at Harris Teeter because their produce, meat, and seafood sections are much better than the other supermarkets near me. And they stock Maple View Farm products.

That said, if something like a Wegmans decided to open near me, they'd give Harris Teeter a run for their money. Publix isn't much different from Lowe's or Kroger imo.

12/4/2012 9:26:26 AM

Harris Teeter is the most upscale grocery store before you get to the Whole Foods/Earth Fare/Fresh Market type places that contain all of the organic/free range/local shit.

There are some Publix/Bi-Lo type places that are newer and are on the Harris Teeter level...but across the board, it's still probably the nicest, large grocery store.

12/4/2012 9:55:23 AM

bring a safeway to nc

12/4/2012 10:03:16 AM

Yeah I mean I definitely agree it is MUCH nicer than Food Lion and Lowe's and some other places I have been and I am definitely a Harris Teeter fan so no argument from me that HT is nice. I grew up mainly going to those in both Charlotte and Raleigh, but when I moved to where I am now, they didn't have a Harris Teeter so I started using the Publix and Bi-Lo near me. I guess I didn't really put much thought into it but neither one of those near me seemed much different than the Harris Teeters I had always been to so that's why I was curious as to why everyone seemed to think it was on another level.

I do supplement with Trader Joe's, local produce, and sometimes Whole Foods, but I did that when using HT too.

12/4/2012 10:03:52 AM

Quote :

"before you get to the Whole Foods/Earth Fare/Fresh Market type places that contain all of the organic/free range/local shit."

I wouldn't really include Fresh Market in that list. Very little of their stuff is organic/free range/local. They're basically just a more expensive and less well-stocked HT with a few boutique items thrown in like $10 pints of ice cream

12/4/2012 10:06:20 AM

Someone start the ***OFFICIAL GROCERY STORE COMPARISON THREAD***.

12/4/2012 10:18:09 AM

http://www.wral.com/state-leaders-to-vote-on-future-of-dix-campus-tuesday/11840383/

Quote :

"State officials on Tuesday approved a plan to lease the 325-acre Dorothea Dix Hospital campus to the city of Raleigh, which plans to convert the site into a "destination park.""

12/4/2012 10:24:43 AM

If the area that Kroger is leaving NEEDED a grocery store so bad, then they wouldn't be closing, and if they ever did close, others would be lined up to take its place. Obviously the people in that area were getting food somehow, and it wasn't by making Kroger profitable.

12/4/2012 10:27:44 AM

^^Wow I'm actually surprised the plan got approval the way some people were huffing and puffing over it. Glad to see this is making some real progress.

^ Like I said before, I think a Kroger was too high of a price point for those locations. I bet if you put a Compare Foods on MLK it would do just fine.


[Edited on December 4, 2012 at 10:29 AM. Reason : s]

12/4/2012 10:28:27 AM

Kroger occupies something of an uncomfortable middle ground in the North Carolina market. They're better stocked/quality than Food Lion, and less expensive than Harris Teeter. One would think it would be a nice compromise but it doesn't seem to work out that way.

Up here in VA, where (at least in the Richmond area) there aren't any Teeters, Krogers tend to be closer to the high end of the market, where they seem to be in a battle with Martin's. Martin's has the customer service and the prepared foods/bakery, while Kroger tends to have much larger stores with bettter selection.

12/4/2012 11:24:15 AM

State approves lease of Dix campus to Raleigh for major park
http://www.wral.com/state-approves-lease-of-dix-campus-to-raleigh-for-major-park/11840383/

yay!

12/4/2012 1:40:22 PM

What is a "Destination Park"?

Just sounds like Raliegh managed to swindel the state out of more tax dollars, I guess they got tired of building huge unneccesary roads and are moving on to huge unneccesary parks now.

12/4/2012 2:00:12 PM

Apparently paying the state half a million dollars every year for 99 years is "swindling the state" out of tax dollars. Who knew?

I think they call it a destination park because it's not something that would only be used by the neighborhood. It would be a major attraction for visitors and people in other parts of the area as well.

FYI, here are some size comparisons with other parks:

Dix property: 306 acres
Pullen Park: 72 acres

Central Park (Manhattan): 843 acres
Prospect Park (Brooklyn): 585 acres
Golden Gate Park (San Francisco): 1,017 acres
Grant Park (Chicago): 319 acres
Audubon Park (New Orleans): 340 acres
Boston Common: 50 acres
Encanto Park (Phoenix): 222 acres
Patterson Park (Baltimore): 137 acres
Balboa Park (San Diego): 1,200 acres

By the way I can't believe all those cities were stupid enough to preserve land for green space when they could have handed it over to developers. I mean what ARE they thinking?!

12/4/2012 2:28:49 PM

If Raleigh wanted it, they could have bought it. Also, most of the cities you list have more than twice the population of Raleigh. You want green space, drive 15 minutes in any direction.

12/4/2012 2:55:03 PM

^ I think this is called "park envy"

12/4/2012 3:00:56 PM

Wouldn't having a higher population be even more of a reason to argue for giving the land to developers? I like how the de facto response of anyone when comparing Raleigh to another place is to immediately point out how you can't compare them because the other place is bigger or smaller. Also, I wasn't trying to make any sort of point with that last; I was listing the size of recognized parks in order to give people an understanding of what Dix is comparable to in terms of size. If you want me to find much smaller cities with outstanding parks I can do that as well.

By the way, Raleigh is the fastest growing metro area in the United States. it is projected to continue to be until at least 2030. The urban core especially will continue to see a lot of this growth and it expands upward, outward, and fills in. Leasing this land isn't about today, it is about decades from now. Do you really see no value in having an urban park adjacent to downtown? Fair enough if so, but you'll find the overwhelming amount of people see a lot of value in it. It is one of the amenities valued most by people.

[Edited on December 4, 2012 at 3:05 PM. Reason : .]

12/4/2012 3:01:48 PM

It's pretty common for the state to lease property to cities and counties, they often do so for $1/year.

12/4/2012 3:12:13 PM

Durr, I can't think about how things will be more than 3 years into the future. DUUUURRRRR

12/4/2012 3:16:46 PM

Quote :

"Wouldn't having a higher population be even more of a reason to argue for giving the land to developers?"

More people need more park space. This is like putting a 100 acre park in Wilson.

Quote :

"Raleigh is the fastest growing metro area in the United States"

That's not true.
http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/population/cb12-55.html

Quote :

"Leasing this land isn't about today, it is about decades from now. Do you really see no value in having an urban park adjacent to downtown? Fair enough if so, but you'll find the overwhelming amount of people see a lot of value in it. It is one of the amenities valued most by people."

That's irrelevant to whether the state should pay for it. I don't care whether the park is a good idea or not, just that if you decide that it is, pay the owner a fair market value for it. $500k is not fair.

12/4/2012 3:52:10 PM

Quote :

"If Raleigh wanted it, they could have bought it. Also, most of the cities you list have more than twice the population of Raleigh. You want green space, drive 15 minutes in any direction."

Well hell, if you want to think about it in terms of population, when Central Park first opened the population of NYC was about 515,547. When Golden Gate Park opened, San Francisco's population was 233,959. When Grant Park opened in Chicago, the population was about 29,963.

Raleigh's current population is 416,468 and the metro population is 1,163,515. So really this would be the time to work on opening a large acreage park in the area if you want to use population as a gauge.

12/4/2012 3:58:03 PM

Once again please explain to me how the state is paying for it. Not receiving the maximum amount possible for the land does not equate to paying for it. Governments do not operate like corporations; they do not exist to make the most money possible. State officials clearly feel that the non-monetary value in having the space used as a public park more than makes up for the different in revenue that would come from selling or leasing the land to other entities.

12/4/2012 4:00:11 PM

^^^I don't have a frame of reference, but $500k a year for 99 years isn't fair for a situation like this?

[Edited on December 4, 2012 at 4:00 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2012 4:00:15 PM

Charlotte has been getting by fine with their 100 acre urban park, but fine, you want a huge unneccesary park, go ahead, but don't make the state of NC pay for what is, at best, a luxury, and at worst, a terrible investment.

12/4/2012 4:02:41 PM

For reference, independent valuations I saw were around $22MM

12/4/2012 4:02:54 PM

I'm not understanding how the state receiving annual revenue from the city for land that has been operating essentially at a loss for the past 10+ years is exactly a bad deal for the state. But sure, I guess we could have just sold off the land to some developer lining the pockets of the politicians and have them build some underused development there instead. Never mind I doubt any developer would be willing to deal with all the hazardous waste and other issues the land has.

12/4/2012 4:07:55 PM