Quote :

"I think we can all agree that regardless of who wins ROY this has been an unprecedented year for rookie QBs. And it's been run to watch. I mean, most years Alfred Morris would be a shoo-in for ROY, and he's not even really in the conversation."

i think this is the bottom line that we can all agree on, this is arguably the best rookie QB class ever, at least in the last 20 years or so

they're all good quarterbacks who should have productive careers

if i had to pick one to build my team around, who would it be? well if i was assured of their health, it would be RG3...even though his completion percentage is skewed by a bunch of dink and dunk screen passes and his overall passing yardage is skewed by Garcon taking those passes 70 yards to the house...but i can't be assured about RG3's health, so i wouldn't pick him...6'2" 215 isn't made for taking big hits every sunday like Cam or Big Ben, for example...but he is fast as fuck and can throw much better as a rookie than Vick ever could...lots of upside, but i doubt he ever plays a full 16-game season personally

then you have Luck and RW...RW has the running advantage, but Luck is damn mobile, especially for a white dude...Luck has more prototypical QB size (6'4" 235) as a pocket passer with decent mobility than little RW, but RW has already proven his height won't be an issue in this league like so many of the ESPN type folks criticized him for...RW is faster than Luck and has a stronger arm, but I think Luck is already a very solid passer on tough back shoulder throws and I think he's better at RW at knowing where to throw into tricky defenses...maybe RW can take off running if he only sees a small window, but I like Luck's ability to thread the needle better

I think if you put Luck on Seattle, with that O-line, Marshawn and with that defense supporting him, Seattle would have as good or a better record...Luck's numbers would probably be down a bit across the board, but if you put Wilson on Indy his numbers (including picks) would probably be up across the board because he would be forced to carry a much larger portion of the offense than he currently does

the bottom line again is they are all 3 great rookie QBs and only time will tell who has the better career...I just think its dumb as hell when people want to point out some stats based on a small sample size of less than a full season and try to definitely say who is better like its not even up for debate...lots of State fans WANT Wilson to be the best...plenty of Skins fans want RG3 to be the best...I guess maybe pure pocket passing fans want Luck to be the best...but until the end of next year, we really won't have a great idea

but again, its stupid to take a small sample size and act like you can predict their career paths...ie face taking an NBA player who plays 4 minutes a game and averages 1.5 points and 2 rebounds and predicts him to without a doubt be a 15 and 20 guy if he's given starter minutes...as if there is some mathematical formula to predict everything

12/26/2012 12:16:28 AM

Quote :

"I just think its dumb as hell when people want to point out some stats based on a small sample size of less than a full season and try to definitely say who is better like its not even up for debate...lots of State fans WANT Wilson to be the best...plenty of Skins fans want RG3 to be the best...I guess maybe pure pocket passing fans want Luck to be the best...but until the end of next year, we really won't have a great idea"

We have to wait til next year to know which QB was better this year?

12/26/2012 1:20:56 AM

Colts are 10-5, so are the Seahawks, even with the Green Bay loss win, Redskins are 9-5, do you have some kind of foolproof way to prove which QB is better this year based on 15 games (or 13 for RG3)? If this was as clear cut a contest as some people would make it out to be, how come there are multiple people just on TWW for example that think each of the 3 QBs is the best?

to answer your question, just use your own bias and decide with your own heart who is the best this year based on whatever criteria you want to focus on and ignoring criteria that goes against your opinion

i'm at least going to let the playoffs play out before i decide "which QB was better this year" whatever that means

i just think both RG3 and Luck had a LOT less to work with than Wilson, yet this is a State board, so 50% of the people in this thread are on his dick

[Edited on December 26, 2012 at 1:31 AM. Reason : .]

12/26/2012 1:28:57 AM

Skins are 9-6 chief. That misstep alone invalidates your previous arguements.

12/26/2012 1:37:23 AM

I don't think he understands what ROY is.

^^Even the dumbest person can arrive at the most obvious position, and we get it -- you are one of the dumb ones who cannot make an argument to do better than that. You don't need a whole essay to explain your own shortcomings. We know them well.

We have to pick a ROY this year, and some of us have the wherewithal to make that decision correctly (and at least eliminate a wrong decision). None of the luck supporters have made a better argument or a refutation, only irrelevant or fallacious points that have no bearing on the real argument.

[Edited on December 26, 2012 at 1:39 AM. Reason : It's hilarious that you are talking sample size and you don't even know what we are sampling.]

12/26/2012 1:38:09 AM

Quote :

"We have to pick a ROY this year"

and the world depends on what skoal can of the wolf web thinks about who should be rookie of the year between 3 very deserving candidates

^^lol whoops, point is, they all have similar records, and will all most likely be playoff teams...i hope the skins, hawks and colts all make the playoffs, that will continue to promote this valid debate, that some retards like skokiaan dont think is even a debate at all but rather a lopsided no-brainer

Quote :

"It's hilarious that you are talking sample size and you don't even know what we are sampling."

i'd hope you're sampling the 15 games each QB has played in (or 13ish or so for RG3)...what the fuck else would you be sampling?

[Edited on December 26, 2012 at 1:43 AM. Reason : hey skokiaan when RW stuck it in your butt, did you squeal like his fiance when he was drafted?]

12/26/2012 1:41:17 AM

Quote :

"Colts are 10-5, so are the Seahawks, even with the Green Bay loss win, Redskins are 9-5, do you have some kind of foolproof way to prove which QB is better this year based on 15 games (or 13 for RG3)?"

It sounds like you think annual NFL awards should only be given out every few years then? For the record, I don't base my opinions on awards off team win-loss records.

Quote :

"i just think both RG3 and Luck had a LOT less to work with than Wilson, yet this is a State board, so 50% of the people in this thread are on his dick"

I'm not riding Wilson's dick. The same way that I'm not riding Peterson's dick when I say he should be MVP. Or is 15 games also not enough sample size for me to have an opinion on who should be MVP yet either? Should I wait til after next season to weigh in on this season's MVP debate or is that argument only used for ROY discussion?

Are you trying to argue that Luck should be ROY (again, not awarded til next season evidently), b/c he may have done better if he was drafted by another team? That seems like a very odd way to decide the winner of a performance based award. Should we imagine how good Calvin Johnson would be if he were on the Pats & thus give him the MVP?

Sorry TT, but your arguments here aren't making a lot of sense. We have to go off of this season's stats for this season's ROY award. I think you're confusing us saying someone should be ROY with us saying someone will have the better career (something that I don't think anyone has actually done)

[Edited on December 26, 2012 at 1:56 AM. Reason : grammar]

12/26/2012 1:54:34 AM

my argument is simply that all 3 candidates are basically neck and neck for the award...i already said in the first post on this page i would've given it to RG3 if he hadnt gotten hurt and i thought it was down to Luck and Wilson, and that Luck had done more with less

and if you wanna go on stats, Luck has better overall quantitative stats which is why he probably is going to win ROY this year, deserving or not

sounds like you are harping on my "any of these 3 QBs could have a better career" argument and incorrectly applying it to this year / ROY award

i'm basically calling out face for saying Luck "isn't that good of a QB" and you guys are riding his coattails in that defense...7 4th quarter or OT wins in his rookie season but he "isn't that good" because he throws more picks while throwing 150 more passes?

[Edited on December 26, 2012 at 2:02 AM. Reason : .]

12/26/2012 2:01:16 AM

Quote :

"sounds like you are harping on my "any of these 3 QBs could have a better career" argument and incorrectly applying it to this year / ROY award"

Quote :

"I just think its dumb as hell when people want to point out some stats based on a small sample size of less than a full season and try to definitely say who is better"

My bad for confusing "who is better" with who will be better

12/26/2012 3:56:07 AM

the fact that luck has thrown 18 interceptions and has a passer rating of 75 should make him ineligible just on general principle.

does he need a heroic 4th quarter comeback if he doesn't throw 3 picks earlier?


he has quantifiably more passing yards ... and that's about it

12/26/2012 6:45:33 AM

Quote :

"RG3...even though his completion percentage is skewed by a bunch of dink and dunk screen passes and his overall passing yardage is skewed by Garcon taking those passes 70 yards to the house"

I think this perception arose because of the first two drives in the first game of the year (against the Saints), but I don't understand why it's so persistent. There have only been two games (Saints, Eagles #2) in which screen passes have figured heavily in the gameplan. And Garcon only has two long run-after-catch TDs (Saints, Cowboys #1). And on both of those, the ball traveled 15-20 yards in the air, so neither of them were "dink and dunk screen passes". I haven't checked recently, but as of a couple of weeks ago, Griffin led the league in TDs of over 20 yards. And Garcon's were the only two with significant run-after-catch yards that immediately spring to mind.

Just wanted to clear up the fact that Griffin's league-leading 8.27 yards/attempt are not just because he throws short and the receivers do the rest of the work.

12/26/2012 8:24:47 AM

20% of his passes are behind the LOS

Most NFL QBs are around 10%

The Redskins are also near the top of the league in % of passes off play action and near the bottom in deep passes (although when they do go deep, RG3 is shredding teams).

He's still playing a total gimmick offense. The thing is, his running ability might make that offense viable long term.

12/26/2012 9:33:40 AM

Quote :

"20% of his passes are behind the LOS"

Where can I verify this? Having watched every play of every Redskins game this year, I find it extremely hard to believe that one of every five pass attempts is behind the line of scrimmage.

12/26/2012 9:41:29 AM

Air yards per completion:

luck	7.53230769230769
brees	6.4147582697201
wilson	6.70042194092827
griffn	6.09638554216868
manning	6.0159151193634
brady	5.89709762532982
rodgers	5.45481049562682

Statistic		Average	Off Win% Def Win % Off/Def Win %
ANPY/A			5.338	70.3%	70.7%	89.10%	(Adjusted Net Passing Yards per Attempt)
Turnovers		1.76	67.8%	67.5%	82.5%
DSR			69.1%	66.5%	65.4%	89.14%	(Drive Success Rate)
ToP/Drive		2:39.3	65.4%	65.3%	79.6%
Avg Start Pos		31.20	65.0%	62.8%	72.9%
Yds/Drive		28.36	63.2%	63.6%	81.5%
3rd/4th Down		39.1%	62.6%	61.8%	75.1%
Yds/Play		5.095	62.2%	61.6%	77.4%
First Downs/Drive	1.62	61.0%	61.2%	76.4%
RZ Eff			65.6%	59.3%	60.6%	69.7%
3 & Outs		3.92	58.8%	57.4%	69.9%
Plays/Drive		5.503	57.6%	57.7%	66.7%
RB Success		45.6%	54.8%	54.5%	59.0%
Penalty Yds / Play	0.822	54.3%	55.2%	60.8%
Yds/Carry		4.125	52.8%	52.2%	55.0%
Net Punting Average	37.90	51.2%	51.6%	53.0%

12/26/2012 6:21:33 PM

Quote :

"If anything, this shows that better QBs throw shorter."

funny how Aaron Rodgers is the lowest on that list, when he's the best deep ball passer in the NFL

also, a quote from the creator of the air yards stat

Quote :

"generally the better passing teams are going to get deeper completions and have fewer screens and check-downs."

12/26/2012 7:53:08 PM

RG3's going to the pro bowl

luck's a 1st alternate

wilson's 3rd alternate

/thread?

[Edited on December 26, 2012 at 8:11 PM. Reason : .]

12/26/2012 8:06:22 PM

^^Are you actually making an argument, or are you just making a series of innuendos as you usually do because you are too much of a pussy to make a real argument?

Your appeal to authority fallacy doesn't change the fact that it's a poor stat for assessing QBs.

12/26/2012 8:08:33 PM

We'll see who still flying when the championship games start.

12/26/2012 8:27:18 PM

^^actually i was just legitimately surprised that the best and most accurate deep ball passer in the NFL, Aaron Rodgers, was ranked so low on that list...my only argument was that the stat you chose to quote to imply "better QBs throw shorter" (LOL) was completely negated by that stat's creator, who said, as most people who watch football easily realize, that better passers are able to throw down the field instead of having to rely on check downs

but since you want an argument, and you're so hellbent on stats, and stats are for losers (except Wins-Losses), and you're a loser, i'll waste 15 minutes of my time and oblige you

Quote :

"Completion % and turnovers are the two most important simple metrics that characterize a good QB, and Luck sucks at both of those."

Alex Smith leads the NFL in completion percentage...he's such a good QB, he lost his starting job a few weeks ago...Smith also only has thrown 5 interceptions, so there goes those stats out the window

If a QB completes 60 passes in 60 passing attempts he must be the best QB ever...unless of course all those passes are 2 yard check downs, in which case people who watch football rather than mathematicians who study spreadsheets and formulas all day realize that he's not an elite QB, but rather someone who leads his team to 20 3-and-out drives

which leads me to believe there are more important stats than completion percentage and turnovers (Drew Brees has thrown 18 picks this season and I'm sure we can all agree that Brees is an elite QB)...for example, 3rd down conversions, since moving the chains to move your team downfield to score is infinitely more important than completing a bunch of dink and dunk passes to give your punter a workout

exhibit a: 3rd (and 4th) down passing conversions...a simple stat, not an advanced metric, but one that determines if your offense is able to stay on the field and continue to drive to score points



as you can see, elite QBs like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are both in the top-3 of this simple stat category, and Big Ben is great at avoiding pressure long enough to buy time to find an open receiver...Matt Ryan comes in at 4th, and as well as the Falcons have played this year, thats not really a surprise this season...as for the rookies, the 3 rookie QBs who are all deserving of the ROtY discussion, you'll notice Luck is at #7, Wilson is at #15 with a respectable 40%+ percentage, and RG3 is at 25th...advantage Luck, obviously

but of course you've mentioned in this thread that RG3 and RW are much better running QBs than Luck, and since that table only takes into account passing on 3rd/4th downs, it must not be fair to mobile QBs like Griffin and Wilson who are able to use their legs to pick up 3rd and 4th down conversions, so I present exhibit b: 3rd and 4th down conversions by either passing OR rushing (the top-6 rushing QBs in the NFL this season are highlighted, green for those whose rushing attempts on 3rd/4th down help compared to the previous graphic, red for those who have been hindered compared to the previous graphic):



as you can see, all three rookies have benefited from their respective scrambling abilities on 3rd/4th downs, not just "the black ones"...Vick...well Vick kinda just sucks, but thats not the point of this post...but 3rd and 1 conversions are one thing that all three of these rookie QBs have done a pretty good job at, so lets look at 3rd (or 4th) and long conversions, which are typically defined as at least 8 yards behind the line of scrimmage, so here is exhibit c, PASSING for 3rd/4th and long attempts:



Luck appears to be the 2nd best QB in the entire NFL at converting 3rd and long...Wilson is again a respectable #15, but RG3 pretty much sucks dick at moving the chains on 3rd and long as is evidenced by him being dead last, with less conversions than strong armed studs like Blaine Gabbert and Brady Quinn...I guess Garcon didn't break enough tackles on the screen passes to make RG3 look like a superstar when it wasn't 1st or 2nd down

but again, RG3 and Wilson are both extra-mobile quarterbacks who can run and pick up long gains when their team needs them to move the chains, so a pass-only chart like the one above isn't fair to their mobile versatility, right? so finally lets take a look at exhibit d: passing or running for 3rd/4th and 8+ yard conversions:



as you can see, Luck is the best quarterback in the entire NFL at picking up 3rd/4th and long conversions by either passing or running...RG3 moved up from dead last to a respectable 2nd-to-last when you factor in his rushing ability, and even Wolfpack fan-favorite Russell Wilson dropped a bit when you factor in rushing

i mean i guess Luck wouldn't be in as many 3rd-and-long situations if he could just hand it to Marshawn or Morris all the time, but he can't, so he just converts more 3rd and longs than anybody else in the entire league

so there is some statistical evidence for the math nerds that Luck is in the discussion with Wilson and RG3 for Offensive Rookie of the Year, and that its not the 2-horse race that some of you stat addicts like to claim

12/26/2012 9:27:26 PM

This isn't a fair fight because it's obvious you don't know the first thing about how to make an argument or how to use statistics. Regarding alex smith, one outlier does not disprove a statistic. You'd know this if you didn't have the most feeble understanding of stats.

You also keep forgetting that we are trying to pick who had the best year, not who had the best career. Brees had a good but not great year because of his picks. That's why he's not an MVP. That's why Luck is out of the ROY race.

There is no need to guess at how important 3rd/4th down performance is, they already tested its importance statistically. It is the 7th most important statistic on the list I already posted below.

You just asserted that it was an important QB skill, but when analyzed, it's not as important as laymen (you) and sports commentators think. You can usually save yourself time by first testing whether a factor is important before doing a long investigation on it, but you are out of your depth so you wouldn't know that.

So, the point still stands -- Luck is good at a lot of minor things that are important in being a good QB. On the major things, he's simply average.

Statistic		Average	Off Win% Def Win % Off/Def Win %
ANPY/A			5.338	70.3%	70.7%	89.10%	(Adjusted Net Passing Yards per Attempt)
Turnovers		1.76	67.8%	67.5%	82.5%
DSR			69.1%	66.5%	65.4%	89.14%	(Drive Success Rate)
ToP/Drive		2:39.3	65.4%	65.3%	79.6%
Avg Start Pos		31.20	65.0%	62.8%	72.9%
Yds/Drive		28.36	63.2%	63.6%	81.5%
3rd/4th Down		39.1%	62.6%	61.8%	75.1%
Yds/Play		5.095	62.2%	61.6%	77.4%
First Downs/Drive	1.62	61.0%	61.2%	76.4%
RZ Eff			65.6%	59.3%	60.6%	69.7%
3 & Outs		3.92	58.8%	57.4%	69.9%
Plays/Drive		5.503	57.6%	57.7%	66.7%
RB Success		45.6%	54.8%	54.5%	59.0%
Penalty Yds / Play	0.822	54.3%	55.2%	60.8%
Yds/Carry		4.125	52.8%	52.2%	55.0%
Net Punting Average	37.90	51.2%	51.6%	53.0%

12/26/2012 9:45:27 PM

Romo's career ANPY/A is better than Brady's, Schaub's is better than Montana

like i said, stats are for losers

meanwhile the Colts are 10-5 with a terrible defense and terrible running game

oh well, haters gonna hate on good rookie QBs in favor of being State/Wisconsin homers

here's another stat for people who don't actually watch football but just love stats

Most 4th-quarter comeback wins in NFL history
Rank QB wins
1 Dan Marino 36
2 Peyton Manning 35
3T Johnny Unitas 34
3T John Elway 34
5 Joe Montana 31
6 Brett Favre 30

Favre played 20 years and had 30 4th quarter comebacks, Luck hasn't even played a full season and already has 7

[Edited on December 26, 2012 at 10:01 PM. Reason : haters gonna hate]

12/26/2012 9:56:56 PM

Quote :

"I guess Garcon didn't break enough tackles on the screen passes to make RG3 look like a superstar when it wasn't 1st or 2nd down"

Goddammit. You put that in there just to annoy me, didn't you?

12/26/2012 10:09:51 PM

not to annoy you, just to attempt at normalizing how good each of the 3 rookie QBs is, which i continue to think is pretty close, which has been my argument all along

i'm not all on luck's dick like face and skokiaan are on wilson's, i legitimately think all 3 of them are deserving of ROY...i just cant stand to see people obsess over stats and act like there is some clear cut winner when this is the best rookie qb class in as long as i remember

12/26/2012 10:13:50 PM

Oh, I absolutely agree that all three should be considered and all three have legitimate arguments to be made in their favor. Whoever wins it will have deserved it. But I don't appreciate that you keep advancing this "Griffin's numbers are misleading because he only throws short" narrative that is simply not true.

12/26/2012 10:25:41 PM

i think there is a bit of truth to it, but i also give shanahan credit for not trying to make rg3 do too much too early...but mainly i'm just using him as an example to refute the "completion percentage is the most important simple stat" argument...hell, rivers is top-10 in completion percentage and as a state fan with rivers on my fantasy team, i realize how bad he has been this year

besides, rg3 lost to the panthers!11

12/26/2012 10:29:51 PM

http://sportspressnw.com/2012/12/russell-wilson-figures-to-be-a-pro-bowl-snub/

good article highlighting why RW didnt make the pro bowl and prob wont with OROY ...

deservedly so sadly, if it was an 8 week award he'd prob win it hands down.

12/26/2012 10:41:50 PM

Quote :

"I like how it says Wilson is 6-2 in those games with 17 passing TDs and 1 interception, when anybody who actually watched the Packers game knows he's 5-3 with 16 TDs and 2 picks"

Actually that's what people who just watched the highlights knows.

Anyone who watched the game knows that the Seahawks would have won anyway if it weren't for the refs blowing a pass interference call and allowed the Packers to extend their late 4th quarter TD drive.

[Edited on December 26, 2012 at 10:50 PM. Reason : ]

12/26/2012 10:47:49 PM

i watched the whole game...there were blown calls everywhere...thankfully the real refs came back after that week...but a blown call on the last call of the game stands in peoples' minds more than blown calls earlier in the game

12/26/2012 10:49:27 PM

Quote :

"So, the point still stands -- Luck is good at a lot of minor things that are important in being a good QB. On the major things, he's simply average."

I'd say keeping the chains moving is pretty fucking major and a big reason people who know a lot more about NFL quarterbacks than you are so high on Luck.

As someone who finds all 3 to be perfectly acceptable ROY candidates TT10 has done a pretty good job making an argument, at least as far as TWW standards go. He even had the charts highlighted.

12/26/2012 10:49:50 PM

this is a sad, sad page

cherry picking stats is the worst

[Edited on December 26, 2012 at 10:54 PM. Reason : some of the stats used on this page were used last year by people arguing Dalton over Cam for ROY]

12/26/2012 10:52:09 PM

people mightve used more Wins for Dalton over Cam last year, but lots of people used Cam's passing yard records for evidence he was ROY last year

i'm just trying to inform people that all 3 QBs are 'elite rookie QBs' and not just 2 of them

i mean fuck, all three of them are probably going to the playoffs, and i'm not gonna knock Griffin for Cousins winning a couple games cause he was so dominant when healthy

12/26/2012 10:59:26 PM

Cousins only won one game. They lost the falcons game. I'm 100% convinced we win that game if RGIII had finished that game.

12/26/2012 11:18:31 PM

Quote :

"like i said, stats are for losers"

Just curious how people are expected to make any judgment at all about any players then since I doubt many people have watched all 16 games for all 32 teams?

12/26/2012 11:27:51 PM

you can watch 1 arizona game and know all their QBs suck

and you can watch 4-5 games each of the seahawks, redskins and colts and know all their qb's are legit

no need to google advanced stat metrics, just watch NFL games

[Edited on December 26, 2012 at 11:36 PM. Reason : .]

12/26/2012 11:34:36 PM

^^two-man sack races will be held on consecutive Sundays until a ROY is crowned.

12/26/2012 11:38:04 PM

^that makes more sense than some other things i've read in here

Quote :

"no need to google advanced stat metrics, just watch NFL games"

So how many games must i watch of each team to be able to form an opinion of the players on that team? Also, how do i know which teams I don't need to watch games of to be able to develop opinions of their players (such as AZ's QBs)?

Are easy to add counting stats like total yards & TDs acceptable? What about stats that involve division? Just trying to understand which stats you approve of (outside of fantasy points, which you've brought up multiple times)

[Edited on December 26, 2012 at 11:51 PM. Reason : l]

12/26/2012 11:46:50 PM

^stop being a dick.

I only have to read 1 page of this thread to know you are. Although the google analytics and metrics confirm it.

12/27/2012 12:02:46 AM

some people just hate Luck because he threw 18 picks

and Wilson went to NCSU

no need to try and convince them further, when all they want to argue is semantics

after all, lots of teams with terrible run games and terrible defenses have a chance to go 11-5 this weekend

[Edited on December 27, 2012 at 12:09 AM. Reason : hey ndmetcal remember when Brees broke Marino's record for most yards in a season? worthless stat]

12/27/2012 12:06:49 AM

^^I didn't post in here til once on page 8 then not again til page 14

But my vote for ROY isn't Wilson. That doesn't mean that I also don't think Wilson was better than Luck. Myabe I just hate white QBs then I guess?

[Edited on December 27, 2012 at 12:11 AM. Reason : /]

12/27/2012 12:09:42 AM

i doubt you hate white QBs

you probably just let "OOOOH NO 18 INTERCEPTIONS!!" cloud your entire judgment about the whole competition

12/27/2012 12:12:13 AM

Quote :

"hey ndmetcal remember when Brees broke Marino's record for most yards in a season? worthless stat"

So I guess he won MVP for that?

12/27/2012 12:13:12 AM

without looking i think Rodgers or Brady won that year

but nobody was calling Brees a fringe top-20 QB

12/27/2012 12:14:07 AM

So Luck's season is now on par with Brees' season from last year?

12/27/2012 12:18:42 AM

so passing yards now actually mean something to you?

12/27/2012 12:19:31 AM

You despise any advanced stats, so I'll try to use as basic of stats as I can

Luck:
325/599 (54.3%), 21 TD, 18 INT, 4183 yds, 7 y/a

Brees:
468/657 (71.2%), 46 TD, 14 INT, 5476 yds, 8.3 y/a

I'd say Brees' season was noticeably superior, but I guess that puts me in the minority. I also never said Luck was the 20th best QB (I said I had him ranked with numerous other QBs around 14-16). That doesn't mean I think he'll forever be in the 14-16 range, but this season I think he obviously was

[Edited on December 27, 2012 at 12:26 AM. Reason : 71]

12/27/2012 12:24:49 AM

Brees had more than twice as many TDs Luck has and a 110 rating

And yes passing yards is a nice record, but it shouldn't be a huge factor in awards voting. The record itself is their reward for breaking the record, they don't automatically deserve more awards for it.

[Edited on December 27, 2012 at 12:27 AM. Reason : ]

12/27/2012 12:27:10 AM

^^i already brought up advanced stats, like 3rd/4th and long passing/rushing conversions, where Luck was 1st in the NFL

and then you responded by playing semantics games

^how about a 10-5 record so far from a team that was 2-14 last year? is that a meaningless stat?


[Edited on December 27, 2012 at 12:28 AM. Reason : oh wait, THEY TANKED THE SEASON]

12/27/2012 12:27:31 AM

Luck has 76.6% leadership this year.

RG3 has 63.5% grit and determination this year.

RW has 78.2% plays like a veteran this year.

Would like to see anyone argue my made up statistics.

12/27/2012 12:29:47 AM

Ok, so those are the stats we now use to measure QB success? Since you've seemingly shit on all other stats used, should we simply look at those handful of stats to say which QBs are better than others?

The rest of us are using a multitude of stats to shape our opinion of which QBs are better than others (or to at least say that these 4 QBs are in one tier & those 5 are in the other)

You're seemingly cherry picking the few stats that support the outcome that you've already arrived at before even looking at any stats

Quote :

"how about a 10-5 record so far from a team that was 2-14 last year? is that a meaningless stat?"

I also don't give Luck all the credit for an improved team, the same way I didn't give Dalton all the credit last year for Cincy (when I thought Newton was the better rookie...maybe I am racist)

[Edited on December 27, 2012 at 12:32 AM. Reason : ?]

12/27/2012 12:30:34 AM

as i've said plenty of times in this thread, when you chose to ignore them and instead focus on nitpicking semantics

WINS ARE ALL THAT MATTERS

Colts are 10-5, and they have a shitty run game and defense, therefore their passing game, ie Luck has carried them to a 10-5 record

which is as good or better than Seattle's and Washington's record

Washington has a better run game, Seattle has a much better run game and a much better defense than either team

but Luck isn't any good because he threw 18 picks, ie 1 more interception per 4 attempts than Wilson

[Edited on December 27, 2012 at 12:32 AM. Reason : .]

12/27/2012 12:32:01 AM