16-d[e]uce

3/19/2007 8:23:43 AM

Wrapped up like a....

3/19/2007 8:28:51 AM

he hussled that $20 bartenders game though

3/19/2007 10:31:57 AM

Quote :

"If a player calls on the river, but a better hand is showed, he/she is allowed to chuck their cards in the muck instead of exposing them."

If you request to see their hand they are obligated to show. The dealer will flip them if the player refuses to.


However, it's generally considered a dick move and poor ettiquette to request to see a losing players hand.

It's a great way to upset someone enough to get them to leave the table.

3/19/2007 10:37:15 AM

or go on life tilt

3/19/2007 10:49:09 AM

life tilt is the new phrase of the week

3/19/2007 12:17:59 PM

Ive been trying to perfect all aspects of life tilt for the past year.

im almost to life tilt zen

3/19/2007 12:25:09 PM

5 card draw question.

When you get a pair with an Ace, do you draw 2 or 3? Example - 9,9,2,7,A
1) Draw 3 discarding the 2/7/A
2) Draw 2 discarding the 2/7

3/19/2007 1:04:19 PM

lazy answer: depends

3/19/2007 1:16:51 PM

Quote :

"If you request to see their hand they are obligated to show. The dealer will flip them if the player refuses to. However, it's generally considered a dick move and poor ettiquette to request to see a losing players hand."

Eh, is this true?

I always thought if the player that was called is obligated to show first, and if he has a better hand you can muck without showing.

3/19/2007 1:21:02 PM

^^there is not a button for that.

[Edited on March 19, 2007 at 1:21 PM. Reason : ^^]

3/19/2007 1:21:08 PM

i mean it really does though man, it depends on how many people in the pot, how high your pair is, what you think the guy you're going against is drawing too etc.....as a general rule (i don't play much draw poker) if the pair was jacks or higher, and you were going against one opponent who drew 3, i would draw 2 and keep the ace, if you had like 4 people in the pot, you'd probably want to draw 3

3/19/2007 1:31:16 PM

Quote :

"Eh, is this true? I always thought if the player that was called is obligated to show first, and if he has a better hand you can muck without showing."

the rules are:


on the river any hand that goes to showdown is live.

the bettor or last betting initaitor is obligated to show first, but if someone else shows first he does not have to.

if someone shows the better hand, you can muck at any time, you can muck before they show their hand (which, happens often and i dont understand at all), or you could muck a winner.

as i said, any hand that is called on the river, or if checked around is live, and can be requested to be shown.

any player at the table, if dealt a hand in the hand in question can make the request, to open up the hand to the table.

also, if you show your neighbor your hand then muck, the table can request that your hand be opened for all to see.

it is usally considered very poor form, and rather rude to ask for a hand to be pulled out of the muck and exposed.

many altercations in card rooms are started on this.

the worst ive seen was

old nit asked to see a hotheaded NJ dude's hand.

ever hand old nit went to the river with, nj dude requested nit's hand be opened.

irritating as hell, slows the game down, and just pisses off the other player.

couple hours later floor was called, yelling, blah blah, f this f that, see you both later.


it seems to happen to me a lot

or maybe i bluff the river too much

but it really irritates the hell out of me

i show my hand a ton, probably too much, but everytime i do i have a speicifc reason for doing so.

the whole thing was initially built in to deter collusion, specifically in limit games.

if you feel as if you are getting the squeeze or pinched by artifical raises by a pincher, you could see what he was doing it with. if you feel you are getting hustled, you have a right to pitch a bitch.

it's way over used now,

esp. in no limit games.

i personally never, ever ask to see a hand, unless someone shows it to like half the table or something.

i wonder all the time, if i make a suspect call and someone mucks violently what they had, but, i have reasons not to.

when i play, my vp$ip recently is about 75

however, its really quiet, and no one really realizes this, except the ones im not playing against anyways.

its dangerous that way.

give someone a reason to get pissed at you, the more reason they have to want to call your bs down to try and gain revenge, or specifically gun for you.

i make big bets to the talking, not assholeish moves.

3/19/2007 1:38:04 PM

Quote :

"5 card draw question. When you get a pair with an Ace, do you draw 2 or 3? Example - 9,9,2,7,A 1) Draw 3 discarding the 2/7/A 2) Draw 2 discarding the 2/7"

i play very little to no draw, but it makes no sense as to why keep an ace here, i mean, the chances that you are up against the exact same pair and it comes to kickers are very small.

in video poker, you draw 3 always,

but the pay for 3oak is higher that 2p, further influencing gathering the extra % or the draw.

2p (As/X) is fairly strong in 5cd, so going for 3oak/b may not be the best play.

3/19/2007 1:43:36 PM

I think you keep the ace to represent three of a kind in your hand, so you can bluff later. Although, like you, I don't play any 5cd.

3/19/2007 1:55:29 PM

Quote :

" on the river any hand that goes to showdown is live. the bettor or last betting initaitor is obligated to show first, but if someone else shows first he does not have to. if someone shows the better hand, you can muck at any time, you can muck before they show their hand (which, happens often and i dont understand at all), or you could muck a winner. as i said, any hand that is called on the river, or if checked around is live, and can be requested to be shown. any player at the table, if dealt a hand in the hand in question can make the request, to open up the hand to the table. "

So, if I read this correctly, the general gentleman's agreement is the loser can muck and not show, and it's generally accepted, but if someone request it, he has to show, though this is generally in bad taste?

3/19/2007 2:24:55 PM

yessir

3/19/2007 2:26:14 PM

but like they said, it's a dick move (hey guys finally woke up), is there a rule on slow rolling (showing just one card for a while when both of them are important, a la the badguy in the last bond movie with the pocket jacks) 'cause that pisses me off

3/19/2007 2:47:05 PM

I've done it once or twice. Never in an actual casino. Asking to see someone's cards can give you information to use later on in the game. Slow rolling your cards is just being a dick.

3/19/2007 2:51:23 PM

theres no official ruling on slow rolling

its again, a "gentlemens" thing

but oddly enough

ive seen it happen where this guy did it at my table a few times

a regular stood up and started yelling at the guy

really letting into him about how bullshit and childish it was

and hte floor gave the slowroller the talkin' to.

ahah

3/19/2007 2:52:16 PM

I once killed a man for slowrolling me

3/19/2007 2:58:58 PM

Usually I'll save it for when someone takes a really long time to call. I love to see their look of relief and joy when I flip over one card, only to see it quickly dissapear once I show them card #2.

3/19/2007 2:59:10 PM

^^ saw me almost destroy the wackiest azn alive for slowrollin me.

hwen i had a set of aces and he rolled out a runner runner gutter wheel with jack high to the river

3/19/2007 3:00:17 PM

^^ that's mean.. sometimes it takes a while for the hero call, I be pissed if you did that to me

3/19/2007 3:13:21 PM

The worst ive had happen to me was in a set over set all in fest

me: "set of 9s"

guy1: "just aces"

guy2: "pair of jacks......" (thats all he said, im like fuck yeah, $1300)



pair in his hand, and hey look a jack on the turn!

[Edited on March 19, 2007 at 3:30 PM. Reason : e]

3/19/2007 3:29:44 PM

Quote :

"I be pissed if you did that to me"

Uh yeah, that's kind of the idea.

3/19/2007 3:41:08 PM

Did I play this hand stupid? I honestly couldnt put the guy on QQ....thoughts....

PokerStars Game #8988074442: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/03/19 - 19:53:29 (ET)
Table 'Bancilhon III' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Dammn_Deuces ($187.75 in chips)
Seat 2: thrashersdmb ($92 in chips)
Seat 3: The Hish 24 ($152.75 in chips)
Seat 4: Ricki Vegas ($99 in chips)
Seat 5: Berman44 ($113.25 in chips)
Seat 6: bnut23 ($26 in chips)
Seat 7: antbug ($100 in chips)
Seat 8: na8tivestyle ($52.50 in chips)
Seat 9: desert1fox ($36.50 in chips)
Ricki Vegas: posts small blind $0.50
Berman44: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to The Hish 24 [Jh Kd]
bnut23: folds
antbug: folds
na8tivestyle: folds
desert1fox: folds
Dammn_Deuces: folds
thrashersdmb: folds
The Hish 24: raises $2 to $3
Ricki Vegas: calls $2.50
Berman44: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jd Qh Js]
Ricki Vegas: checks
The Hish 24: bets $4
Ricki Vegas: calls $4
*** TURN *** [Jd Qh Js] [Ks]
Ricki Vegas: checks
The Hish 24: bets $7
Ricki Vegas: raises $9 to $16
The Hish 24: raises $129.75 to $145.75 and is all-in
Ricki Vegas: calls $76 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Jd Qh Js Ks] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ricki Vegas: shows [Qs Qd] (a full house, Queens full of Jacks)
The Hish 24: shows [Jh Kd] (a full house, Jacks full of Kings)
Ricki Vegas collected $196 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $199 | Rake $3
Board [Jd Qh Js Ks Th]
Seat 1: Dammn_Deuces folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: thrashersdmb folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: The Hish 24 (button) showed [Jh Kd] and lost with a full house, Jacks full of Kings
Seat 4: Ricki Vegas (small blind) showed [Qs Qd] and won ($196) with a full house, Queens full of Jacks
Seat 5: Berman44 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: bnut23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: antbug folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: na8tivestyle folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: desert1fox folded before Flop (didn't bet)

3/19/2007 6:58:41 PM

poker is fun

3/19/2007 8:33:15 PM

I would have gone broke in a way such that a worse hand had an oppurtunity to pay me off


also, full ring sucks




[Edited on March 19, 2007 at 8:47 PM. Reason : .]

3/19/2007 8:46:54 PM

you know

i dont think ive ever thought of that concept before

ways to go broke better

but it makes perfect sense

3/19/2007 8:50:12 PM

What?

3/19/2007 9:00:50 PM

in realtion to what noidroid said.

there really are many different ways to go broke that seem like they could be variable by value.

or maybe im abstracting too much

but in hish's hand

you're going to bust here

but there are ways to play it such that larger ranges will come along for the ride, increasing your value in the play

so,

like going broke better than what was displayed here.

its like

different goodnesses of losing your stack

i guess

3/19/2007 9:14:16 PM

yes, exactly

3/19/2007 9:20:34 PM

i see what pilgrim and noid are saying...

on a friday night cash game, i hit a straight flush on the turn, whereas the other guy in the hand made an ace high flush on that same card. he could not have guessed that my gutshot straight flush draw hit the turn. i made an initial big bet after the flop on just the flush draw alone, and he called with what he was hoping was the nuts. no boat possibilities...he thought he was gold. $50 bucks and a river card later, he sat there shocked and said, that im glad i busted to that.

its not so bad when you look back and see how much of an auto-bust hand you were just involved in.

3/20/2007 2:04:42 AM

what noid is talking about is actually talked about pretty explicitly in ToP. definetly a concept that will add value to your game. btw, i suck hard at poker, really really hard

^that's not what they're talking about

[Edited on March 20, 2007 at 7:35 AM. Reason : lkjd]

3/20/2007 7:34:39 AM

So Ive been doing a lot of reading on 7cs8.

heres what ive gathered:

on the deal: fold
on 4th: fold
on 5th: fold
on 6th: fold or check raise
7th: bet and see what happens

3/20/2007 9:14:04 AM

^easiest game to play for profit imo (at least online/low-middle limit) very mechanical but profitable if you play solid strategy

3/20/2007 9:35:15 AM

Let's hear some solid strategy.

3/20/2007 9:41:08 AM

but david

i just posted solid strategy

after finishing one book, and halfway though another

Quote :

"on the deal: fold on 4th: fold on 5th: fold on 6th: fold or check raise 7th: bet and see what happens"

3/20/2007 9:43:08 AM

Always fold after the deal?

3/20/2007 9:46:45 AM

lol, okay....well the most obvious thing is to be very very selective with starting hands, lots of hands that are playable or even good in stud are trash in stud8, you want hands that will make you close to the nuts on both sides (high and low), basically don't leave home without 3 babies with at most 2 gaps, and very rarely an 8. lots of 7s are even unplayable. i'll open with a high pair, but try to get the pot heads up, and if it's multiway by the end of 4th street slow down, bc unless you are drawing at a boat you are likely a dog to walk away with profit.

there is lots of other strat, if you give me some situations i'll talk more, i've actually been playing this game for a while, i like it for multitabling bc it really requires very few tough decisions and can be played while watching tv or drinking beer and hanging out with friends, but you can still show serious ev by just playing mechanically.

[Edited on March 20, 2007 at 9:48 AM. Reason : as you prob know, scooping is the name of the game in any high/low spread]




also, todd brunson gives a somewhat brief, but very very solid strat for this game in super system 2. i also like his writing style.

[Edited on March 20, 2007 at 9:49 AM. Reason : dfsa]

3/20/2007 9:47:51 AM

Where do you guys usually play?

3/20/2007 9:50:35 AM

I'm curious since I live a little vicariously through you guys that get to play a ton more than I do, do you guys profit off of poker over the long run? Do you keep track of it?

How is our friend Turner doing?

3/20/2007 9:53:47 AM

this used to be my fave game on party.....

3/20/2007 9:54:23 AM

yes, excel, very well for himself

3/20/2007 9:54:26 AM

lol

3/20/2007 9:55:16 AM

i was playing texas hold'em...had an Ace/7 spades - hit the flush and went all in. Got beat heads up by a straight flush....

i left after that

3/20/2007 10:42:55 AM

yea i saw that yesterday actually. when there are 4 cards to a straight flush and you have the ace, and your raise on the river is re-raised....do yourself a favor and don't push all in like an asshole, i mean there is NOTHING else the person can have.

3/20/2007 10:54:35 AM

But it's a much better story to tell if you actually go busto, don't forget to leave out the part where the board was 4 to a straight flush.

Quote :

"I'm curious since I live a little vicariously through you guys that get to play a ton more than I do, do you guys profit off of poker over the long run? Do you keep track of it? "

I've been a pro for 2.5 years.

3/20/2007 1:02:12 PM

your mother has been a pro for 32.5 years



but david, if you are seriuosly looking for some 7cs8 strategy, check out ray zee's hi/lo split poker book

its ok, and not written very well, but its got a lot of good points.

its also geared more towards a bit higher game than youll be comfortable with, but the concepts are similar.

what i mean by that is, it's scenarios are usually 2-3 way and fast and loose like a higher limit game instead of 5-6 way and passive.

unlike 7cs hi only, pots are built late in s8.

in 7cs, pots are usually built early, then get into calling mode late. c/rs on the big street and frequent jamming are more prevalent, so therefore locks, representative bets to push a marginally better holding out, and other moves become more important.

an ace on board is the most powerfull card in the game.

very intense starting hand selection is important, and then immediately folding if you brick 4th is the 2nd most important thing.

the most important non-mechanical thing to develop is hidden strength and hand representations.

if you hide a big hi while hyou look like you are going low, thats when you make big pots.

3/20/2007 2:54:33 PM