Quote :

"How can you be mad at Israel for supposedly doing the same basic thing the Palestinians are doing? "

If the roles were reversed, most people would. If Palestine were the occupying force, if Palestine were stealing land and establishing illegal settlements on Israel, if Palestine was prohibiting Israelis from leaving their country, if Palestine were imposing martial law on Israeletc. etc..... if Palestine were launching precision guided missles into densely populated civilian territories and killing hundreds of civilians, including women and children, people would be outraged at Palestine. But that's not what's happening. It has nothing to do with being anti-semitic. It's a case of a bully killing hundreds of innocent people. And Palestine if fighting back the only way they can: guerilla war and launching shitty rockets that never hit their target and have done little damage.

Quote :

"Some 200 occupants were safely able to evacuate a building this morning before Israel bombed the shit out of it"

They were lucky. How many haven't been so lucky? And where are those 200 occupants, including women, children and babies going to live now? You think they might be upset that they just lost their home and all of their belongings? You don't think they're going to be pissed at Isralie for putting them on the street? And who's to say that rockets were even being launched or stored in that building. There might have been a few Hamas militants meeting in one room that brought in the strike.

Are you kidding me?


[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 5:24 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 5:25 PM. Reason : ]

7/22/2014 5:21:14 PM

The rockets are basically nothing. Israel should be working to use diplomacy and law enforcement to stop the rockets which are almost harmless.

7/22/2014 5:29:14 PM

Quote :

"^^^^ how do you think that those things won't make Palestinians more angry? "

Some Palestinians would be angry and dissatisfied with a new government, and a smaller number would turn to rebellion and violence. That is inevitable. Let law enforcement and/or military take care of them.

Let the people who just want to live their lives, live their lives. They will be able to participate in elections. Outside aid would help rebuild the region, with reparations being given to families. (which would certainly garner some favorable opinion) A "puppet government" would be temporary, ideally.

Hopefully, any extremist groups like Hamas would be cracked down on before they gain any influence. But if they somehow gain influence and the people decide they want militant extremists in charge who spray missiles when they don't get their way, then time for another change.

How exactly do you think it should go down? Back off and flood them with supplies, hoping for the best? Seriously, I have not heard of anything other than this from you guys. Why do you think leaving Hamas in power would lead to anything good? You know what Hamas really wants, and if they have the leverage they will use it. What are you doing to do about it if Israel just backs down and they start an offensive?

7/22/2014 5:29:56 PM

You don't seem to understand that oppression incites anger, and anger incites rebellion, and anger leads to civilians supporting organizations that share their anger and will do something about it. If it weren't for the oppression and the heaving-handed revenge attacks, Hamas and their M.O. wouldn't have as much support from the common Palestenian who just wants to live a normal life and raise their family.

7/22/2014 5:35:55 PM

Quote :

" I don't think many people believe that Israel's main goal is to kill as many people as possible. I think most people think they actually are trying to hit military targets"

Pretty sure I've seen the phrase "indiscriminately targeting civilians" used in this thread on more than a few occasions...

Quote :

" launching shitty rockets that never hit their target and have done little damage"

Quote :

"They were lucky. How many haven't been so lucky?"

Because the Hamas rockets are so terribly aimed, Israelis have relied entirely on luck that the rockets don't land on their homes and schools (a school in Sderot was destroyed but the alarm sounded in time and all the students made it into the bomb shelter). They're getting closer though, a rocket landed a mile away from the Tel Aviv airport. All flights in and out have been cancelled for the time being.

7/22/2014 6:01:39 PM

^^True. Hopefully a new government would resolve that, eventually. But what is a workable solution now that we have Hamas and so on?

7/22/2014 6:08:23 PM

^^ what would you call the targeting of the four children playing soccer on the beach, if not “indiscriminate targeting?"

DELIBERATELY targeting?

7/22/2014 6:18:24 PM

You gotta pick one.

Either Israel is indiscriminately shelling Gaza with insane collateral damage and overwhelming firepower, or entire city blocks of Gaza are filled with “terrorists"


Over 600 dead within two weeks. Is Israel being precise or are they being belligerent?


You don't get to dodge the issue. Stop being a pussy and confront the issue already.

7/22/2014 6:35:27 PM

Quote :

"How can you be mad at Israel for supposedly doing the same basic thing the Palestinians are doing?"

i'm sorry, i didnt know that Palestine had a naval blockade that prevented Israel from getting basic supplies and used their military and armored bulldozers to build and protect illegal settlements

7/22/2014 7:07:16 PM

Quote :

"Because the Hamas rockets are so terribly aimed, Israelis have relied entirely on luck that the rockets don't land on their homes and schools (a school in Sderot was destroyed but the alarm sounded in time and all the students made it into the bomb shelter). They're getting closer though, a rocket landed a mile away from the Tel Aviv airport. All flights in and out have been cancelled for the time being."

A mile away? While 100s of innocent Palestinians, including women and children have been blown to smithereens by missiles that are hitting densely populated areas on an hourly basis?

7/22/2014 7:12:49 PM

Quote :

"^^ what would you call the targeting of the four children playing soccer on the beach, if not “indiscriminate targeting?""

I saw someone say on golo that they weren't actually playing soccer. They were collecting scrap metal, and therefore were legitimate targets, because they use that metal to build shitty rockets.

7/22/2014 7:14:06 PM

Why do we pay for Israel to bomb Palestinian hospitals?

7/22/2014 7:54:32 PM

At this point I think it's just so they'll actually pickup the phone when we call. Israel is quite prosperous and has no need for foreign aid.

7/22/2014 8:25:37 PM

^^ to support your lifestyle

7/22/2014 8:45:47 PM

So the strategy Israel should take seems to be:

Stop all military action against Hamas, Gaza, etc. Assume Hamas will eventually cool down and stop all attacks, violence. Allow aid and supplies to be brought in. Allow the region to rebuild. Do not encroach further on Palestinian territory. Palestinians will come to view Israel more positively. Hamas will lose favor and a more moderate party will grow to take its place, and everyone will live in relative harmony.

There are a lot of "ifs" in that strategy that involve trusting Hamas and other militants to stand down and become cooperative. And of course Israel would have to resist taking over new territory. But you know... that strategy would be better in may ways. I'm just reluctant to trust Hamas to do anything constructive.

For the record, it sickens me to see all of the civilian casualties on the Palestinian side. Even if some of them may not be so innocent, it's impossible to tell either way, and most of them are innocent.

7/22/2014 9:22:43 PM

Israeli female MP calls for total extermination of Palestinian people.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/16/371556/israel-must-kill-all-palestinian-mothers

7/22/2014 11:35:10 PM

Quote :

"So the strategy Israel should take seems to be: Stop all military action against Hamas, Gaza, etc. Assume Hamas will eventually cool down and stop all attacks, violence. Allow aid and supplies to be brought in. Allow the region to rebuild. Do not encroach further on Palestinian territory. Palestinians will come to view Israel more positively. Hamas will lose favor and a more moderate party will grow to take its place, and everyone will live in relative harmony."

Seriously, the most cogent argument for a tangible resolution that I've read in some time.

7/23/2014 1:28:16 AM

7/23/2014 2:37:22 AM

Imagine if mexicans had tunnels smuggling weapons and criminals across the us border. Imagine if they killed a few us citizens here and there. We would bomb the shit out of every mexican city held by drug lords until the cartels stopped their shenanigans.

[Edited on July 23, 2014 at 5:33 AM. Reason : k]

7/23/2014 5:32:39 AM

How many wrongs does it take to get to a right again?

7/23/2014 8:55:56 AM

^^

7/23/2014 8:57:04 AM

http://www.wral.com/raleigh-family-loses-dozens-to-gaza-violence/13832639/

Quote :

"Official reports are that 630 Palestinians and 29 Israelis — 27 soldiers and two civilians – have been killed over 15 days of fighting. More than a dozen of those deaths were her relatives, Amani Asad said. "She just started yelling. She just started yelling and crying," Asad said of her mother. "She recognized the house. They showed it demolished." Nazeeha Asad saw her family's home in Gaza blown apart by an explosion. In all, 20 members of her family were dead, including a child younger than two. "She said they were pulling bodies from under the rubble by hand, themselves moving the rubble and pulling out bodies," Amani Asad described. Some of what her mother told her was emotionally hard for her to translate. Taking a deep breath, Amani Asad continued, "She said one of the family members, all they had was her hand.""

[Edited on July 23, 2014 at 10:17 AM. Reason : wow, just read the comments to the wral story. wow.]

7/23/2014 10:11:41 AM

Someone asked me yesterday (I think it was Bullet) what I'd do with the current situation. Just saw this Slate article (yeah, I know.. Slate) and I didn't see much in it I personally disagreed with.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/07/how_to_save_gaza_demilitarization_and_abbas.html

tl;dr - Gazans have no govt; which makes Israel act worse towards Gaza; Israelis have lost faith in a military solution; Abbas needs to assume control over Hamas in Gaza; demilitarize Gaza in exchange for $texas and cooperation from the international community; all the pieces are in place to do this.

7/23/2014 11:36:17 AM

lol before and after she made on-air statements criticizing Israel's actions. GUESS WHICH IS WHICH!

7/23/2014 12:34:15 PM

^ that's amazing if true.

Israel just took out the only power plant in Gaza, leaving only 10% of Gaza with electricity. I'm sure all those warnings that Israel gives Palestinians should be easily received by 90% of the population living without power, right? Right?

7/23/2014 12:58:19 PM

For the second time in the last week, missiles were found inside of a U.N. building in Gaza. The building itself was vacant of civilians, but it was in between 2 U.N. school buildings where 3,000 displaced Palestinians are staying.

7/23/2014 1:17:09 PM

I guess Israel should bomb it.

7/23/2014 1:28:04 PM

^^ you ever gonna answer my question, friend?


Do you think Israel is conducting a precise campaign?

[Edited on July 23, 2014 at 1:30 PM. Reason : ]

7/23/2014 1:29:22 PM

Quote :

"Because the Hamas rockets are so terribly aimed, Israelis have relied entirely on luck that the rockets don't land on their homes and schools"

So what is Iron Dome then...propaganda?

Quote :

"Palestinians will come to view Israel more positively."

That's not gonna happen

[Edited on July 23, 2014 at 2:57 PM. Reason : ]

7/23/2014 2:51:28 PM

and because those people didn't inspect the vacant buildings around them to certify them clear of weapon chaches, they were acting as human shields

7/23/2014 2:55:00 PM

Quote :

"Do you think Israel is conducting a precise campaign?"

What's your measure of a "precise" campaign? Are civilian deaths automatically a disqualifier for a precise campaign?

What I consider a precise campaign and what you consider a precise campaign may not even be the same thing.

Quote :

"They were lucky. How many haven't been so lucky? And where are those 200 occupants, including women, children and babies going to live now?"

According to the media somewhere around 600 people? I have no idea, but they're not dead so at least they'll get a chance to live somewhere. Our are you arguing that they'd be better off dead?



[Edited on July 23, 2014 at 3:02 PM. Reason : ?]

7/23/2014 2:59:25 PM

Quote :

"06/17/14 What led to the problems in Iraq? Joy Reid discusses how the history of Iraq and America’s involvement has influenced the country with MSNBC contributor, Rula Jebreal, and author of “Lawrence in Arabia: War, Deceit, Imperial Folly, and the Making of the Modern Middle East,” Scott Anderson."

Quote :

"07/22/14 Rula Jebreal discusses the Gaza ‘media war’ One day after Palestinian journalist Rula Jebreal called MSNBC’s coverage of the conflict in Gaza “disgustingly biased,” she sits down with Chris Hayes to debate the media’s role in the conflict."

http://tv.msnbc.com/author/msnbcjebreal/

[Edited on July 23, 2014 at 3:06 PM. Reason : looks like she used to have a page on msnbc.com]

[Edited on July 23, 2014 at 3:07 PM. Reason : V You talking to me? I KNOW you're not talking to me.]

7/23/2014 2:59:54 PM

Hence the reason for the question, big guy.

7/23/2014 3:01:15 PM

Quote :

"For the second time in the last week, missiles were found inside of a U.N. building in Gaza. The building itself was vacant of civilians, but it was in between 2 U.N. school buildings where 3,000 displaced Palestinians are staying."

Quote :

"and because those people didn't inspect the vacant buildings around them to certify them clear of weapon chaches, they were acting as human shields"

This wasn't a statement about human shields. It's about Hamas keeping weapons in civilian areas. And more than that, UN buildings that were meant to be for civilian support. These militants don't care about the well-being of their own people.

7/23/2014 3:09:48 PM

Yeah the thing about Rula Jebreal is really shitty..

[Edited on July 23, 2014 at 3:12 PM. Reason : not plural]

7/23/2014 3:10:57 PM

^^ it's worth pointing out that there are a lot of empty aid buildings now because they are being pulled out because its gotten too dangerous

but the human shield comment is relevant since so many people are saying that Palestinians are guilty for living near rockets, it implies that they should know about them

7/23/2014 3:18:25 PM

This just stood out to me in that Slate article:

Quote :

"Israel’s callous phrase for its periodic operations in Gaza—“mowing the grass”—"

That's just.... damn.

7/23/2014 3:21:08 PM

I've heard that sentiment and completely disagree with it (that they are guilty for living near rockets). That has not been my view at all. It is Hamas' fault for launching rockets from civilian buildings such as schools and hospitals, and not the people. And although this building was empty, it is still directly adjacent to 2 others that are providing shelter.

A human shield is a person who willingly stays in and around a known weaponized building, even after there is a call for an evacuation (Hamas has publicly encouraged people to go to such places). These people willing give their lives as martyrs so that the civilian death count can rise.

7/23/2014 3:27:34 PM

wait, who are you claiming is actively moving into areas to act as human shields?

7/23/2014 3:42:46 PM

Hamas is offering a ceasefire if Israel pulls out of Gaza and the blockade is lifted (so nothing new really)

7/23/2014 3:51:34 PM

haha, the jews could slaughter every Palestinian man, woman and child using mustard gas, and bdmazur would still shamelessly defend it.

7/23/2014 4:22:19 PM

i guess that's the benefit of giving people citizenship just because of the mother's religion

---

Students offered grants if they tweet pro-Israeli propaganda
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/students-offered-grants-if-they-tweet-proisraeli-propaganda-8760142.html

[Edited on July 23, 2014 at 4:49 PM. Reason : .]

7/23/2014 4:31:51 PM

He won't "defend" it. He will just casually allow it by remaining silent, which is worse.

And if you ask him any question that makes him uncomfortable, such as "Is Israel's military operation precise?" He'll just ignore it.


Then he'll post some garbage propaganda and pathetically try and shift the debate to what Hamas could hypothetically do in an attempt to distract from what Israel is actually currently doing. He'll then intimate that the current behavior from the IDF is somehow preferable to the desires of a disorganized militant group, but he'll never come out and state this directly. That would require him to admit that he values Israeli life far more than he does Palestinian life, and doing that would hurt his liberal street cred. He's a hawk in doves clothing. You see, he'll never have to criticize Israel or the IDF, because in his mind, Hamas will always be more evil. Regardless of how feckless their attacks are, their mere existence is threat to bdmazur, and any and all attacks against Palestinians are therefore legitimate in his mind because of the "greater evil" that could potentially exist.


Of course, he also needs to maintain the air of credibility, so he'll sprinkle us with emotional pleas from time to time, with comments like "I have loved ones in Israel, and they hear sirens sometimes and that makes them nervous for half a second once a year!" This will imply that he has insider knowledge and has his finger on the pulse, which he'll attempt to use so as to speak on the subject with authority. He'll never stop and ask himself, "hey, what if those loved ones lived in Gaza? How would that shape my opinion?" Because apparently that's too goddamn difficult of a thought exercise for him. And we don't want to go around challenging our biases, now do we?

Then he'll go into another thread and pretend to be a liberal on other issues unrelated to Israel while using the exact opposite line of reasoning that he uses in this thread.




[Edited on July 23, 2014 at 5:20 PM. Reason : ]

7/23/2014 4:53:18 PM

Quote :

"tl;dr - Gazans have no govt; which makes Israel act worse towards Gaza; Israelis have lost faith in a military solution; Abbas needs to assume control over Hamas in Gaza; demilitarize Gaza in exchange for $texas and cooperation from the international community; all the pieces are in place to do this."

There is a big problem with this statement; it doesn't punish Israel.

That's all the loudest elements ITT want.

Simple.

7/23/2014 10:14:06 PM

Quote :

"http://www.wral.com/raleigh-family-loses-dozens-to-gaza-violence/13832639/ Official reports are that 630 Palestinians and 29 Israelis — 27 soldiers and two civilians – have been killed over 15 days of fighting. More than a dozen of those deaths were her relatives, Amani Asad said. "She just started yelling. She just started yelling and crying," Asad said of her mother. "She recognized the house. They showed it demolished." Nazeeha Asad saw her family's home in Gaza blown apart by an explosion. In all, 20 members of her family were dead, including a child younger than two. "She said they were pulling bodies from under the rubble by hand, themselves moving the rubble and pulling out bodies," Amani Asad described. Some of what her mother told her was emotionally hard for her to translate. Taking a deep breath, Amani Asad continued, "She said one of the family members, all they had was her hand." [Edited on July 23, 2014 at 10:17 AM. Reason : wow, just read the comments to the wral story. wow.]"

Amani is an NC State alum, my wife is friends with her.

i really wish i hadn't clicked on the GOLO comments... what a fucking shame on us as a country.

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 1:59 AM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 1:58:58 AM

Quote :

"but the human shield comment is relevant since so many people are saying that Palestinians are guilty for living near rockets, it implies that they should know about them"

So let's agree that it's not the fault of the civilians who got bombed. Then who's fault is it?

7/24/2014 8:52:30 AM

Didn't you get the memo? Everything is the Jews fault. All blame for everything going on lies in their camp.

7/24/2014 9:04:34 AM

its the fault of both Hamas instigating Israel and Israel overreacting, both have culpability.

But the people on this site and on Facebook and GOLO saying that Palestinians deserve it because they are acting as human shield are disgusting human pieces of shit.

7/24/2014 9:14:11 AM

So the Palestinians actually acting as human shields don't deserve it? Or are you saying that no one is actually acting as a human shield or trying to be a martyr. Because I'm pretty sure there are confirmed reports that Hamas is actually encouraging people to go contribute to the body count so Hamas can get better press.

I'm not going to claim every person dead in Gaza was a human shield, but I'm also not naive enough to believe none of them are. And since none of us here have any definitive way of showing what the breakdown is between martyrs and true civilian deaths, we're all arguing over speculation.

7/24/2014 9:31:00 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/middleeast/questions-about-tactics-and-targets-as-civilian-toll-climbs-in-israeli-strikes.html

Israel tells civilians to take shelter in building. Proceeds to blow up building. Not sure if supremely incompetent, reckless, or evil...

7/24/2014 9:31:03 AM