Quote :

"but the university stands to lose hundreds of millions of dollars"

Lets not overreact here. The number has been reported to be closer to $75-100 MM.

7/18/2012 12:07:26 PM

Quote :

"until the NCAA can prove that there are specific NCAA rules that Penn State broke, all they can do is talk about how much of a disgrace is it, because that's the only power they have in this"

Quote :

"the moment you give any school "the death penalty" over things that aren't actual NCAA infractions is the moment the NCAA dies."

As I said, I don't think the NCAA SHOULD get involved because this is just way beyond what they are capable of handling correctly. But I don't get how you don't see how this could fall within NCAA rules and jurisdiction if they wanted it to. Obviously there isn't like Rule 78, Section B, Part iii that says "don't let coaches rape boys..."

However a head coach, orchestrating a cover up of a major crime by a current/former coach(can't remember if he was still on staff at that point) in order to preserve the image of the football program, their ability to recruit, their ability to fundraise and sell tickets, not protecting student athletes from a criminal(I know he wasn't raping any players or anything but they still allowed him to be around the current student athletes), with some of the events taking place in football facilities, wouldn't be considered an NCAA infraction. In their giant book of rules I'm sure there is some language somewhere in there that can be applied to this situation that would allow the NCAA to get involved if they wanted.

7/18/2012 2:25:33 PM

^

7/18/2012 3:22:55 PM

sure there's language in there (they actually lay it out in the letter than emmert sent to PSU), but as ^^ said, they should know that they are woefully incapable of handling this correctly, and should just leave it be. it just reeks of a "look at us, we're important too!" feeling. however, the ncaa gets pretty much nothing right, so i would look for some kind of misguided attempt at sanctions.

7/18/2012 3:45:44 PM

Quote :

"it just reeks of a "look at us, we're important too!"

that is exactly my biggest issue with the NCAA attempting to get involved

7/18/2012 3:56:54 PM

^^ you've been pretty critical of the ncaa lately. is something going on?

7/18/2012 5:34:18 PM

on the contrary, i've come around that the ncaa did what they had to do regarding our football program. regardless, my opinion of them doesn't change the fact that they have no business ruling on something as egregious as child molestation, despite their "bylaws."

7/18/2012 5:42:07 PM

They're not going to make any rulings on child molestation. Maybe you are confused?

[Edited on July 18, 2012 at 5:53 PM. Reason : Do you think Sandusky is going to get hit with a show-cause penalty?]

7/18/2012 5:51:37 PM

you know god damn well what i mean. don't be fucking dense on purpose

7/18/2012 7:25:09 PM

Quote :

"it just reeks of a "look at us, we're important too!""

I wouldn't look at it that way... my take would be, "oh, the NCAA stepped up because PSU isn't willing to do the correct thing here."

7/18/2012 8:20:54 PM

To be flippant for a minute, I'm finding my personal desire for Penn State to be punished somehow increasing for every dumb rationalization or begging off from a Penn State fan I read, because they clearly don't get it.

To have a more measured point of view, to paint this as something done entirely by individuals is likewise wrong. I've read the Freeh report, this was an organizational failure of Penn State University. They're going to settle for some millions of dollars. Like J.P. Morgan or BP or any other corporation that recently did something wrong, they make plenty of money otherwise, so financial penalties by itself do nothing and the university got $200 million in private donations after the Sandusky story made national headlines. The "why punish the innocents?" bit likewise holds no weight. Pick any bank or corporation that did something recently and were punished: 99% of the people in that company were doing everything right as they should at the time of the failure but they will still be getting punished for the sins of the other 1%. It doesn't matter if it's fair or not, that's how society works.

I don't think it's the NCAA that will be doing the punishment although if they don't do anything, they've made themselves incredibly irrelevant and the organization at that point might as well die: kids were raped and the guy doing it was covered up more than a decade because of the power of the football program at the university. I'm having a hard time thinking up a violation of any NCAA rule that would have a worse effect on society than that. If Sandusky was the volleyball coach in comparison, he probably would've been terminated in 1998 and at the very least would've definitely been put in jail in 2001. He wasn't because he was football and Joe Paterno's lieutenant for years.

For real punishment, let's see what the Education Department does. I understand they'll be punishing for lack of Clery Act compliance and they have the power to withdraw public funding for incoming students, although that's likewise probably out of the park.

I hope if anything near this bad ever happens at N.C. State we as a community of students, university administration, and alumni don't act as dumb and myopic as some of the Penn State community have been. When you combine what has occurred, it was knowingly hidden for 14 years, and the ignorance of the Penn State fanbase that want to continue deifying a man after everything has occurred...does anyone really want to watch a Penn State football game?

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 1:34 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2012 1:22:51 PM

"“I Hope Tim Tebow Rapes A Kid” And Other Completely Sane Penn State Fan Reactions To Paternoville’s Renaming"

http://deadspin.com/5926561/i-hope-tim-tebow-rapes-a-kid-and-other-completely-sane-penn-state-fan-reactions-to-paternovilles-renaming?tag=joe-paterno

Anyway, looking it up Penn State this year plays on the road at the following schools: Virginia, Illinois, Iowa, Purdue, Nebraska. Virginia is the first road game the weekend after Labor Day. How hostile are their students at football games?

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 1:51 PM. Reason : /]

7/19/2012 1:48:48 PM

Quote :

"I wouldn't look at it that way... my take would be, "oh, the NCAA stepped up because PSU isn't willing to do the correct thing here.""

Since when in the hell does the NCAA care about "do[ing] the correct thing"? Remember when they allowed the OSU players to play in a bowl game "as long as they promised to come back to school the next year and serve a suspension"? yeah, how the freack did THAT turn out?

Quote :

"Virginia is the first road game the weekend after Labor Day. How hostile are their students at football games?"

UVA has students at football games?

Quote :

"kids were raped and the guy doing it was covered up more than a decade because of the power of the football program at the university. I'm having a hard time thinking up a violation of any NCAA rule that would have a worse effect on society than that."

And what NCAA rule violation was that, again?

7/19/2012 2:02:42 PM

Quote :

"UVA has students at football games?"

What?

7/19/2012 2:05:40 PM

in suits, no less.

7/19/2012 2:06:30 PM

Quote :

"And what NCAA rule violation was that, again?"

A sports program at a university concealed a real crime and showed it was in charge of a situation above the university to the point non-athletics department employees were scared they would be fired if they reported on someone in said sports program (for something unrelated to Sandusky, read the footnote describing a situation from 2007 on pages 65 and 66 of the Freeh report). If you have people scared of whistleblowing and then getting fired ON CHILD RAPE because Joe Paterno was king, "lack of institutional control" would be cliche although people on this board have been screaming about that for Chapel Hill for far less.

If the NCAA thinks nothing was wrong here, they might as well die because at that point they are a castrated organization, there's a lot more universities in this country than Penn State where the football coach or basketball coach outranks the university president, which means there's a lot more places where something of this magnitude could occur. We all joke about the Dean Smith Mafia at UNC, but the situation on how Smith ran UNC and how Paterno ran Penn State are the exact same. Thankfully for Dean as far as we know none of his assistants were raping kids and he didn't have to overrule Baddour or the chancellor on whether they should report the assistant to the Orange County Police Department.

The NCAA violations are mostly about sports programs that are cheating and the universities don't know about it or don't keep tabs on them. Here is a situation where a sports program and the university worked together to conceal a crime and broke the law to the point that Penn State's federal funding could be endangered, which would kill the university. The NCAA generally assumes in its penalties the university leadership are in the right "against" the athletics department, and here the university leadership was in the wrong as well. I'm not going to say death penalty just because I know the NCAA won't do it, but with SMU they were given the death penalty because the university leadership were in the wrong as well.

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 2:34 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2012 2:33:12 PM

simply point to the rule in the rulebook that says universities are not allowed to cover up crimes.

Quote :

"I'm not going to say death penalty just because I know the NCAA won't do it, but with SMU they were given the death penalty because the university leadership were in the wrong as well. "

yes, and SMU also violated, explicitly, NCAA rules. what explicit rule was violated here again? "lack of institutional control" isn't even a freaking rule, and it doesn't even apply here. The institution was intimately in control of what was going on.

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 2:49 PM. Reason : ]

7/19/2012 2:46:51 PM

^ By that measure, if I'm a basketball player I can take a gun onto the court and kill a guy on the opposing team, but if the Rules of Basketball don't state "murder is disallowed during a game", then the league is not allowed to suspend me.

7/19/2012 3:18:58 PM

I hope the ncaa doesn't put me on probation for not paying my taxes.

7/19/2012 3:21:48 PM

NCAA Compliance officer totally just wrote me a ticket for going 8 over the speed limit

7/19/2012 3:34:46 PM

This is funny because you guys are NCAA member institutions

There is no debate that the NCAA can impose penalties here

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 3:35 PM. Reason : womp womp]

7/19/2012 3:35:21 PM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/michael_rosenberg/07/19/penn-state-death-penalty/index.html

Read it.

It's like everything I think on this, only worded much more eloquently and shit.

7/19/2012 3:36:34 PM

I'll download the full document later and where the more juicy stuff resides, but this is from going through articles 2 and 3 of the 2011-2012 NCAA Division I Manual if a person wanted to get particular.

Quote :

"2.1.1. Responsibility for Control "It is the responsibility of each member institution to control its intercollegiate athletics program in compliance with the rules and regulations of the Association. The institution's president or chancellor is responsible for the administration of all aspects of the athletics program, including approval of the budget and audit of all expenditures. (Revised: 3/8/06)" 2.1.2. Scope of Responsibility "The institution's responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staff members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution." -the 2nd part of that sentence would apply to Sandusky's work with children on the Penn State campus and his youth football camps he did at various Penn State University facilities around Pennsylvania 2.2.3. Health and Safety "It is the responsibility of each member institution to protect the health of, and provide a safe environment for, each of its participating student-athletes. (Adopted: 1/10/95)" -granted, the violated are not student-athletes, but are instead children younger than student-athletes, but I find a bylaw ridiculous if it is interpreted literally if a person tried to argue “if you rape football players, you violate 2.2.3, but if you rape 10-year-olds, don't sweat” 2.2.5. Fairness, Openness, and Honesty "It is the responsibility of each member institution to ensure that coaches and administrators exhibit fairness, openness and honesty in their relationships with student-athletes. (Adopted: 1/10/95)" -ditto 2.3.1. Compliance with Federal and State Legislation "It is the responsibility of each member institution to comply with federal and state laws regarding gender equity. (Adopted: 1/11/94)" - I have read that Penn State in this scandal has violated a section of Title IX 2.4. The Principle of Sportsmanship and Ethical Conduct "For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program. It is the responsibility of each institution to: (Revised: 1/9/96) (a) Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics consistent with the educational mission and goals of the institution; and (Adopted: 1/9/96) (b) Educate, on a continuing basis, all constituencies about the policies in Constitution 2.4-(a). (Adopted: 1/9/96)""

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 4:19 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2012 4:14:49 PM

Quote :

"By that measure, if I'm a basketball player I can take a gun onto the court and kill a guy on the opposing team, but if the Rules of Basketball don't state "murder is disallowed during a game", then the league is not allowed to suspend me."

Onto the court, during the game? And you think NCAA rules don't apply at that time? I am almost entirely certain that there is an NCAA rule against assaulting players during the course of a game.

I just don't see what you think the NCAA should punish them for, what rule, specifically was broken. If you are OK with just making up rules and then punishing people ex-post-facto, then fine. I don't really like that kind of a place. Make a new rule, by all means. hell, they did it for Butch Davis... TWICE.

I also don't see what you think the NCAA could do that would be any worse than what PSU and folks already face. Some people are saying millions of dollars in lawsuits? I think, after all is said and done, the total cost will be in the BILLIONS. Maybe not in actual settlement money, but when you factor in lost revenue, lawyers, penalties, and other costs, it's going to be high. What more of a punishment could the NCAA impose in order to make other universities not want to follow in PSU's footsteps? PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FUCKING JAIL! A university might lose federal funding! Are you gonna slap a show-cause on JoePa to make sure he never coaches again? Sundusky?

Oh, you wanna shut down the entire athletic department. OK, goodbye NCAA. NO member institution will stay in an organization that will kill its members for violating rules that don't fucking exist.


quote bomb, incoming!

Quote :

"2.1.1. Responsibility for Control "It is the responsibility of each member institution to control its intercollegiate athletics program in compliance with the rules and regulations of the Association. The institution's president or chancellor is responsible for the administration of all aspects of the athletics program, including approval of the budget and audit of all expenditures."

Compliance with rules of the NCAA. The rest of that section no longer applies, because it SPECIFICALLY states the rules of the NCAA. Not laws. Rules of the NCAA.

Quote :

"granted, the violated are not student-athletes, but are instead children younger than student-athletes, but I find a bylaw ridiculous if it is interpreted literally if a person tried to argue “if you rape football players, you violate 2.2.3, but if you rape 10-year-olds, don't sweat” "

Actually, it makes perfect sense. The institution is looking out for the wellbeing of those governed by the institution. What, is the NCAA now going to need to copy every single law from every single state into its rules just to make you happy?

Quote :

"I have read that Penn State in this scandal has violated a section of Title IX"

Really? cornholling little boys violates Title IX? Get out of here. Show me.

Everything you bolded in the pre-amble to 2.4a and 2.4b is non-binding as a rule. It merely states the purpose of the following rules.

Quote :

"Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics consistent with the educational mission and goals of the institution"

Establish. I know, it sux, but it says establish.


so, again, WHAT rule was violated?

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 4:24 PM. Reason : ]

7/19/2012 4:18:22 PM

Quote :

"Onto the court, during the game? And you think NCAA rules don't apply at that time? I am almost entirely certain that there is an NCAA rule against assaulting players during the course of a game."

Of course there is. You're being ultraliteral to the point you can't distinguish the forest from the trees which is what my analogy was.

Quote :

"I just don't see what you think the NCAA should punish them for, what rule, specifically was broken. "

Read the bylaws have you? I am. Will post up some more later.

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 4:22 PM. Reason : /]

7/19/2012 4:20:29 PM

Quote :

"Of course there is. You're being ultraliteral to the point you can't distinguish the forest from the trees which is what my analogy was."

you analogy was so deeply flawed as to make it pointless to even consider anything else. You tried to say that the NCAA could apply rules that don't exist to cover situations where, wait for it, rules actually exist.

7/19/2012 4:25:58 PM

Quote :

"Oh, you wanna shut down the entire athletic department. OK, goodbye NCAA."

I didn't say shutdown the athletics department. Why are you lying about what I said? That's your argument mechanism: when a person challenges your point of view on something, you begin to lie to frame in an argument in a false way to portray yourself in a higher light? Find the post where I said the NCAA should shutdown the entire athletic department, please.

Now speaking my opinion: If the NCAA doesn't do something, goodbye NCAA for me, and a lot of other people around the country from the looks of it.

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 4:30 PM. Reason : /]

7/19/2012 4:29:57 PM

OK, then put up or shut up. What should the NCAA do? "Something" isn't a valid answer. What should they do. Then, tell me how that is in ANY way worse than what the university is already facing? Tell me how whatever your wet dream of what the NCAA "should do" is going to prevent any other university from contemplating similar actions in the future. Tell me how whatever they are already facing, jail time, massive lawsuits, etc, will be blown away by what the NCAA "should do."

Then explain why any institution would want to be on the hook for rules that don't exist.

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 4:38 PM. Reason : ]

7/19/2012 4:35:26 PM

Poor Aaron, he wants a literal reading of the rules except when it applies to him.

7/19/2012 4:37:48 PM

I'm waiting for you to unveil this awesome punishment the NCAA should levy for breaking rules that don't exist

7/19/2012 4:38:53 PM

aaronburro is the absolute worst, jesus.

7/19/2012 4:41:28 PM

what, because I think institutions shouldn't be punished for breaking rules that don't exist?

7/19/2012 4:45:43 PM

Penn State is all like



I'm sorry, NCAA... I... didn't know I couldn't do that...

7/19/2012 4:46:46 PM

second Killin' Them Softly post in less than 24 hours

it's all happening

7/19/2012 4:55:00 PM

Quote :

"what, because I think institutions shouldn't be punished for breaking rules that don't exist?"

To get to the absolute simplest way I can think to put it... you don't think a head coach covering up a crime to protect an athletic program violates NCAA rules?

I promise you there is plenty of language in the NCAA rule book that would have Penn St. breaking NCAA rules. Feel free to argue about if the NCAA should or shouldn't do anything... but to argue that Penn St. didn't break any NCAA rules? really? And stop with the "point to the exact rule they broke" bullshit. There is plenty of language in the NCAA rule book to cover a wide scope of things including this.

7/19/2012 5:16:53 PM

^

and it's not like the ncaa even really cares what the rulebook says. no one checks the ncaa; not even the senate.

7/19/2012 5:27:51 PM

Quote :

"To get to the absolute simplest way I can think to put it... you don't think a head coach covering up a crime to protect an athletic program violates NCAA rules? "

not until someone shows me a rule that says he has to report all crimes to police, no I don't. The NCAA can make shit up, but I'd prefer if the NCAA didn't just make up rules and then start punishing people for them, a la Karl Hess.

Quote :

"And stop with the "point to the exact rule they broke" bullshit. There is plenty of language in the NCAA rule book to cover a wide scope of things including this."

Then surely you, or someone else by now, could do it!



There's no rule that really covers this, and even then, what would an NCAA sanction accomplish that isn't already being accomplished by other means? Again, do you want a show-cause slapped on Paterno so he can't zombie-coach? On Sandusky? A sanction saying that Curley and Schultz can't be involved in NCAA programs any more from their jail cells in pound town? You want to fine PSU anythink more than the hundreds of millions of dollars they face in lawsuits and lost federal aid? What, exactly, are you going to accomplish with the NCAA piling on a meaningless sanction?

It sounds like some of you assholes just want blood at this point. Well, Paterno's already been killed off, and the legal system is definitely going to get the rest of it. Quit being so damned vindictive

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 7:25 PM. Reason : ]

7/19/2012 7:24:01 PM

Quote :

"The NCAA can make shit up"

So what are you arguing against again?

7/19/2012 7:44:34 PM

^^ Bylaw 10.1 in the NCAA handbook covers an Unethical Conduct/Behavior bylaw. This bylaw can be interpreted and applied to this case and most likely would be the rule that would have to be used.

My point all along is simply that there is enough gray area in the NCAA rulebook for them to get involved if they want to.

7/19/2012 8:52:09 PM

given that I can't find an actual source for that Bylaw, I'd have to say that sanctioning under that would be the biggest bunch of bullshit ever. Even though the list of actions is said not to be all-inclusive, every single action listed specifically relates to activities directly attached to athletics. Under your reasoning, if a coach went out and murdered someone, the NCAA could sanction the university, because "murder is unethical." I'd like to live in a world where rules aren't that fucking stupidly vague.

And that still doesn't even address the fact that this isn't an athletic matter. JoePa didn't hide this shit so that he could get better players or win a football game. He hid it to protect his friend. That kind of shit goes on everywhere, and it is NOT specifically tied to athletics. That's the whole god damned point. This scandal has NOTHING to do with athletics or the NCAA except that some people who are tied to the NCAA happened to do some stupid shit.

And fools like Flyin Ryan wanna drop the ban hammer on PSU for not actually breaking any NCAA rules, trying to effect some goal that they can't even articulate.

I'll say it again: if the NCAA punishes PennState for breaking a rule that doesn't exist, institutions WILL think twice about staying in the NCAA. Up until now, the vagaries of the rules have been used to address situations that are clearly athletic matters that might not have been perfectly covered elsewhere. Institutions could have looked at those situations and said "yeah, so and so was cheating, we know it, we just couldn't perfectly prove it." But this, the institutions will say "PennState wasn't cheating. They were just being dickheads" and they won't want to hang around such an organization.

7/19/2012 9:30:56 PM

If you think this has nothing to do with athletics... it has everything to do with athletics. If Sandusky was the volleyball coach he would have been fired and thrown out of there years ago. It wasn't because he was JoePa's friend. They knew what this would have done to the football program, this is the real world, stop saying it isn't athletic related. It wasn't really until you found out how directly JoePa was in covering things up.

And your example of a coach murdering someone isn't the same. Bad example. And you just said show you a bylaw, then I did, and you go "well I can't find it so whatever."

If an institution leaves the NCAA because the NCAA punishes Penn St. for what they did you'd have the biggest PR nightmare ever.

I should know better to ever respond to anything you ever type.

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 9:38 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2012 9:35:54 PM

Quote :

"given that I can't find an actual source for that Bylaw, I'd have to say that sanctioning under that would be the biggest bunch of bullshit ever. "

If only the NCAA had an internet website with an easy to find DI Manual

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 9:40 PM. Reason : And if only the person you're replying to had told you exactly where to find it]

7/19/2012 9:39:53 PM

Double post

Favorite quote ever

Quote :

"That kind of shit goes on everywhere"

7/19/2012 9:41:14 PM

7/19/2012 9:52:25 PM

Quote :

"If you think this has nothing to do with athletics... it has everything to do with athletics."

Really? they did it to win football games? No one outside of athletics has EVER covered up child sexual assault? ever? If it has everything to do with athletics, then how? Because these scumbags happened to be employed by an NCAA member institution? That's all you got? If that's the case, then every time Sandusky took a dump in the locker room, it was an NCAA-sanctioned-deucefest.

Quote :

"And your example of a coach murdering someone isn't the same."

No, it's not! It's literally identical behaviour: illegal actions taken by someone in the athletic department. Same damned thing!

Quote :

"It wasn't because he was JoePa's friend."

That's precisely why it happened. I guaran-fucking-tee you that if JoePa had a similar base of power in another organization, he would have done the same thing. That he was the had football coach at PennState didn't matter one bit. You put Sandusky in a McDonald's uniform and have JoePa walk in on him in the bathroom cornholing a little boy, and JoePa makes the same decision: he protects his friend.

[Edited on July 19, 2012 at 10:16 PM. Reason : ]

7/19/2012 9:53:18 PM

God you make me hate human beings.

7/19/2012 11:39:54 PM

Quote :

" And your example of a coach murdering someone isn't the same. Bad example"

It's a perfectly fine example. Both cases involve someone breaking a law, but not breaking ncaa rules.

And this had everything to do with joepa protecting his friend. If it was some guy he didn't give a shit about, he would have turned him in and gotten tons of good publicity for stopping a child predator.

7/20/2012 11:55:44 AM

Pretty sure murdering someone would be considered unethical conduct. So if you do like that example, that is where the NCAA could step in.

Where have you read that JoePa did what he did to protect a friend? I'd like to see that source. Otherwise, I think it has more to do with protecting not just a friend but the entire football program he had built up, or what is more likely a combination of both.

7/20/2012 12:46:45 PM

If he had turned him in the first time he was presented evidence that he was raping little boys, there wouldn't have been a need to protect the football program. At that point it was just a pedophile. Sane people wouldn't be outraged at a whole athletic department because one guy is fucked up in the head. Thus, joepa turned a blind eye because sandusky was his buddy.

It only became a problem for the football program when they knew it was going on and did nothing about it.

[Edited on July 20, 2012 at 2:39 PM. Reason : So, not paying parking tickets is unethical, too. Better get the ncaa on that.]

7/20/2012 2:35:00 PM

paterno statue coming down right now:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/beaver-stadium#utm_campaign=www.centredaily.com&utm_source=11616259&utm_medium=social

7/22/2012 7:50:03 AM