^did you take any classes on internet marketing ethics?

1/14/2009 9:23:50 AM

Ended up doing pretty well last semester - 3.12 for the semester. Hopefully that will be enough for another Dean's List. Found a summer job in Raleigh for this summer working with a small firm. Definitely looking forward to being back in Raleigh.

Half way there!

1/15/2009 11:30:30 AM

we still don't have our grades

oh how i love my school

please let me find another institution to spend my 3L year at.

1/16/2009 12:43:07 PM

I applied for a summer clerkship with the NC Supreme Court and an internship with the NC Court of Appeals; both through the NCYAIO. Both are also paid internships, granted only $8.50 or something. However, since then I have already been hired by a small firm in the Raleigh area.

If I do get hired for either of these positions, should I take it over the firm? Do either of these positions really look that good on a resume? (I know this looks like a stupid question, and it might be; but, would it look better if I had some experience doing legal research in a firm since I have only had experience working with judges) If I do decide to take either of these positions, how does that conversation go with the firm that hired me?

I know this is a good situation to be in considering the economy and what not, but I was just wanting some other input.

1/21/2009 10:26:53 PM

^ depends on what you want to do and what firm it is. I interned at the Court of Appeals and had a very positive experience. I came away with a Judge as a reference which is tough to beat. But you have to keep in mind that you will be doing a mind-boggling amount of research and writing. If you have a particular judge in mind (and if you are so inclined) PM and I can let you know their reputation, etc.

1/23/2009 9:47:55 AM

I would say that you should go with either of the courts over a small firm. You may get a lot of practical experience at the small firm, but the other jobs look much better on your resume. If it truly is a small firm, then they would probably understand that working at the COA or NCSC would be a great opportunity and not hold it against you.

1/23/2009 1:48:33 PM

^^ Well, I applied through the NC Youth Advocacy and Involvement Office's Summer Internship program. It doesn't pay much, but its the resume building that I am more interested in. Therefore, I will not get to choose which judge I will be working for. Not to mention some of the COA and NCSC justices have changed since November.

^ This was my mindset as well. The only thing that I wasn't sure about it, is that I would obviously love to do a federal clerkship when I graduate and the small firm that I would be working for does a lot of federal work.

If I don't get either of the internships, then this will be a moot point. We'll see what happens.

1/24/2009 9:26:05 PM

Alright, so I went to go get my new class rank and what not yesterday and was quite disappointed. At the end of last year I was 30/124. After last semester I am 24/88. I am happy that I moved up 6 spots, but now my class rank percentage has actually dropped significantly.

Damn transfers and people who fail out. Damn you!

1/28/2009 12:58:24 PM

^ wow you lost a LOT of people out of your class. geez. i feel like our class went from ~115 to ~100.

i feel like i'm the only one who is moving in the opposite direction. i started out baller (18/115) and then dropped. isn't the usual law student progression the other way?? we don't have our new ranks/gpas yet so i don't know if i've gone back up.

2/1/2009 3:28:44 PM

Yeah, our curve for 1L classes is a 2.5; however you have to keep a cumulative GPA above a 2.0. So by default, since there were 25 people above a 3.0 last year, there had to have been close to the same amount below a 2.0. Also there were about 10 people to my knowledge that transferred.

Ohh well, I'll just hope for a killer semester and assuming I get my 2.993 above a 3.0 then I will get both a partial scholly and improve my rank. (knock on wood)

[Edited on February 1, 2009 at 11:46 PM. Reason : were]

2/1/2009 11:45:21 PM

i don't really understand curves at all. nor do i know what ours is if it exists. i'm actually pretty positive that our grades are insanely inflated. which is NOT a good thing at all.

2/2/2009 12:30:18 AM

the way i understand it is that most of the 'higher ranked' institutions try very hard not to fail anyone out of the program. while many of the 'lesser ranked' ones don't see much of a problem with losing 10-20% of their incoming classes every year

2/3/2009 12:29:12 PM

Well the reason that is true is ABA approval. Law schools have to show the ABA that they have a rigorous program. The lower ranked, likely newer, schools have to cut a higher percentage of 1L's to show the ABA that they have a rigorous program. Also, they like to try to show that they have a harder program than the higher ranked schools.

This theory could go either way, depending on which schools you look at and which year's bar passage rate. For example, this past years bar passage rate for App. School of Law was an aggregate 80%, but we ranked 2nd or 3rd out of all the VA schools. Then again we had a pretty good class last year, not to mention we just hired a new bar prep professor last year.

But that is probably why the lower ranked, likely newer, schools have to cut more people. Higher ranked, older, schools can cut less people, because the ABA knows that they have a proven system.

However, I know for fact that our school doesn't like to cut people, because we are a private school and don't want to lose that many more people's tuition. But, it is necessary because we need to keep our ABA approval. The ABA actually just finished our check up last semester. We should hear the results by the end of this semester.

As a little lesson, when a school gets fully accredited as ASL did three years ago, they get their first ABA check up 3 years later. Then if they pass that, then its every 7 years thereafter.

There's my $0.02 on why curves are set up as they are.

[Edited on February 3, 2009 at 2:09 PM. Reason : Lesson]

2/3/2009 2:05:56 PM

i'm just going to reiterate that, while i like my classes (really enjoy the majority of them), i seriously hate 95% of the pricks i go to school with

i like that the professors catch on

yet the pricks still try to talk over the damn professor anyway. seriously, you're not that smart. look at where we are in school. please. kill yourselves, thanks.

2/5/2009 11:29:42 PM

Just know that you're not alone.

I thought I was one of only 2 or 3 that thought everyone is law school was a prick. But as I got closer to graduation, and even moreso after law school finished up, I found out that there was close to a couple dozen of us. I also found out that there were a shit-ton of kids who didn't want to practice law (which I didn't, but I'm still practicing anyways).

By the way...economy is sucking for lawyers right now. South Carolina government is on a hiring freeze as are most of the big firms (if they're not already trimming fat by getting rid of the most recently hired associates). My roommate was hired by one of the biggest real estate firms in South Carolina and has seen his salary cut in half since he was hired (with commission on what he collects...not bills). He'll have to work his ass of to get close to what his initial salary was.

I'm doing pretty well splitting my time between two solo practitioners...but consider myself pretty lucky as both guys are pretty good friends of mine. All of my friends who had clerkships are getting pretty bad feedback after their initial job inquiries.

2/5/2009 11:50:29 PM

seriously. there are like no internships either. i've heard horror stories of a few 3Ls getting offers rescinded. i guess i should be glad i have another year left, but who knows if it will be better next year.

but this is all the more reason for me to want to finish my last year somewhere else, cheaper, preferably nonprivate haha. i mean i already have valid reasons but if i could save money in the meantime, it would probably be a good idea.

ahhhh. so you did decide to practice? sometimes i think i want to and sometimes i don't even want to do anything to do with law ever again.

i surprisingly really enjoy my banking class. which maybe is a good thing. it may be the only area where there's a need for attorneys.

2/6/2009 12:04:32 AM

Not really "decided" so much as "fell into it."

Before I took the Bar exam I loaned a good friend some money to start his own practice. So I got back from Europe and he was swamped, so I decided to help him out (I was bored...and I figured the more I help him out, the better chance I get my money back ).

Helped him out for a little while, got the positive Bar results back, then just continued to help him.

He slowed down a little bit and another good friend of mine, who has been solo for about two years now, needed some help preparing for a big trail. So I started helping him, and now I'm splitting time between the two.

It's actually not that bad...a lot more interesting than I thought it would be. I've got a friend opening a bar downtown about a month from now...so I'm gonna take some time off from law and help him do that. I think my future is still in food and beverage, but it's nice to have the law option.

We'll see I guess.

2/6/2009 12:57:04 AM

I ended up with a summer position because of the firm I worked for in undergraduate had a few partners that were good friends with the partners of the firm that I will be working for this summer. Just proves that it really is all about who you know. The more that you get your name out in an area, the better opportunities you will have.

2/6/2009 1:24:51 PM

Quote :

"Just proves that it really is all about who you know. The more that you get your name out in an area, the better opportunities you will have."

I agree with this 100%...but at the same time...people still have to be hiring. A lot of my friends had great summer positions/internships/clerkships in each of the last two summers...but when it came time for those firms/judges to do hire them..."sorry, we just can't afford to bring anybody on right now."

It also depends on what type of law you go into. I know worker's comp is still booming and family law is always growing (although a big problem in family law is getting clients to pay).

I walk talking to my old roommate the other day who has a great clerkship in Columbia right now (along with an impeccable resume and knows a shit-ton of people) and is not getting positive feedback, and we came to the consensus that he should have gone to law school straight out of undergrad and that I should have waited a few years myself (he's 3 years older than me...and I came straight out).

I feel like it'll work itself out in a couple years...but as a whole, the legal economy is just as much in the shitter as the rest of the world.

2/6/2009 3:23:01 PM

oh yea it is all about who you know. and i mean, that is fine but that is part of what i don't like about it. i want to get hired on my merits and because i fit in a certain place, not because like i brown nosed my way into it. or because my dad's friends uncle knows someone. i mean i guess that is what i have to do, i just really don't want to do that. it sounds like you ^ and ^^ have different experiences, you already knew people. and the only place i've interned (in the legal arena) is legal aid and i could "work" (unpaid) there in the summer, i just want a different experience. i mean and there are plenty of unpaid jobs, that is fine...but unfortunately i need to make $$$ somehow and i can't afford to intern full time unpaid somewhere, even though EVENTUALLY (ideally, anyway) that experience would pay off and lead to a job somewhere. i have to live now and pay for stuff now and money is a part of that and i don't want to be totally dependent on loans.

it just sucks. my resume is good, my grades are good...but i can't get a job just from that...it just seems backwards and irritating. and i'm not bad with people or anything, i just don't go to all the dumb little lawyer functions that are set up for networking. i know i should, and i did my first year, but i just hated it so much. it all seems so fake. its really not me and i can't stand it. i know i'm hurting myself, but whatever. i'm just not cut out for the career i don't think. at least at my school, everything is so fake and all the networking events are extremely fake and i can't stand it. so i stopped going.

2/6/2009 6:55:33 PM

I worked my way into a Raleigh network. I didn't know anyone in Raleigh. I applied for several legal related jobs while at NCSU and got turned down time after time. I finally got a position with a local law firm and did a great job while working there. Now, I have references in Raleigh. Just because you don't know people in an area doesn't mean that you are doomed. Get yourself out there.

When you worked legal aid, did you talk with the local attorneys? I worked for a Superior Ct. judge this past summer, and met a lot of attorneys. I applied with a few of their firms, didn't get hired, but they all said that they felt that I would be a good fit, they just couldn't afford to bring on anyone this summer. I probably could have been hired by other attorneys who I met this past summer, but they did nothing but civil and I wanted to work for a firm that did some criminal as well.

Get out there and meet attorneys. Even if you have to work for free this summer, it might lead to a job next year (when it counts the most).

2/9/2009 10:21:02 AM

I didn't get my clerkships, so I will be working with a small Raleigh firm this summer.

2/11/2009 1:56:43 PM

^^^

I was probably in your boat...I just got lucky and had two good friends that needed help with their solo practices. Didn't try out for law review or moot court (didn't really have time with working full time during law school). I was an officer in one organization (Student Trial Lawyers Association), only because my roommate started it.

I wasn't set on practicing law, so I didn't do the normal ass-kissing and "marketing" myself while in school (not that I wasn't social...I'm just not into whoring myself out). I didn't apply for a single job during my last year. It's interesting to see how its worked with everyone I graduated with. I went to lunch with a girl yesterday who was in law review, moot court, graduated with a 3.3, clerked for a judge first summer, worked for a very large firm second summer, and can't even get an interview. Then there are a couple dumbasses I know that are pretty set right now. I've got friends waiting tables, managing at local clothing boutiques...pretty much doing anything they can right now to make their law school loan payments.

I guess I'm just trying to say...don't worry about it. Just make sure you're always doing something. If you don't find a job right away, do something to make money and try and do pro bono cases on the side, or court appointed cases, or DSS cases, etc. Just don't sit around and wait for a call back or interview. Too many of my classmates are sitting around doing nothing right now. While I might not be making a killing currently, I'm at least getting some really good experience and something to put on my resume.

2/12/2009 12:28:16 PM

Court appointed cases is pretty much my back up plan if I pass the bar and can't get hired. It's not a lot of money, but it accomplishes a lot. It allows me to stay in tune with the local bar, puts some money in my pocket, and keeps me in good contact with the local judges.

2/12/2009 2:06:27 PM

What firm in Raleigh?

2/12/2009 8:47:53 PM

^^ Good luck getting on the court appointed list (unless you are in a small town.) If you are in a decent sized city it is very hard to get into and almost impossible for someone just starting out. I wouldn't count on this as a backup plan or even a plan at all.

[Edited on February 18, 2009 at 4:15 PM. Reason : ]

2/18/2009 4:15:09 PM

uggggggh i cannot find a job anywhere seriously i do not get what is wrong.

top (not very top, but top) of my class, good resume (i worked through college, i had internships with political campaigns and the NCGA, etc), i've worked during law school, top legal research and writing grade so my writing samples are decent.

what. the. hell.

i haven't applied to any firms because i don't really want to work at a firm but i can't get a freaking public interest group to hire me for FREE (well i'd apply for the iolta funding, if i got a damn job). what is the deal. this is so frustrating. last year i just gave up, i think i'm going to do the same thing this year. like i can't do anything else to make people want me.

2/18/2009 5:14:43 PM

Only advice I have is to just not let it get to you. Almost NO ONE is hiring right now. The 3Ls at my school aren't even getting interviews. Judges are re-hiring their clerks, big firms are trimming the fat and firing associates and cutting pay, and small firms just aren't taking anybody else.

Two options:

1) Get a non-law job. Suck it up and say, "This isn't the field for me," or "I'll just use my degree later when the job market improves...but do what I can to get by now."

2) Whore yourself out. If I wasn't working for my friends, I was going to walk up and down Broad St (big street in Charleston with all the solo and small firm lawyer) and ask guys to put me to work for free so I could learn how to be a solo lawyer. Then I would just bartend (or wait tables) on the weekend or several nights a week to pay the bills.

It might differ for you because you don't necessarily want to practice law (and neither did I)...but you gotta do what you gotta do. Just make sure you don't get down on yourself...because it's not just you...this is going on everywhere. This is probably the worst time to be coming out of law school (or any type of school for that matter) in a long time.

2/18/2009 5:39:29 PM

i held off law school so i could work another year and i'm really glad i did so now

i just got permission to post here so i just have 2 short questions

1) anybody have any experience with franklin pierce up in NH or friends or family who would?
2) how do you approach letters of recommendations when youve been out of school for a while? i never really had that great mentor relationship with any of my professors and i wouldnt be surprised if they had little to say about me. i do have an excellent relationship with some law enforcement in charlotte and my current bosses though. so that's 3-4 people i could count on. do i need to have some academic ties?

2/18/2009 5:56:32 PM

^^ thanks, yea. i just get confused. i mean i feel like i do well in interviews but a lot of the jobs i've applied for a just like via e-mail or regular mail and they don't even interview. we have some on campus interviews coming up so hopefully i'll get selected for one of those. hopefully. but even interviews i obviously don't do that well in, even if i get a call back i STILL haven't been hired. ughhh. but it is true, i know like, 3 people in my class with summer jobs. just sucks. and those people are people with connections, they don't even have banging resumes or grades. not that mine are that good but i feel like they are DECENT enough to warrant a job!!

if not i'll just wait tables and work the job i'm working now (boutique). but i feel like having a "legal job" is what people will look for. but all i can say is that i've worked through college and law school (well very PT now) so obviously i have a good work ethic. and am decently motivated and able to balance lots of things at once.

^ i don't know what to say about that. i asked my academic advisor for a recommendation. i wasn't that close to her but i at least spoke with her more frequently than my regular profs. and i took her class for my senior seminar so that helped. unless the school requires an academic reference, i'd say go with your stronger references (which you sound like you have).

[Edited on February 18, 2009 at 6:35 PM. Reason : .]

2/18/2009 6:32:57 PM

^^ i got my recommendations just before i got out of undergrad in anticipation of going to law school a couple years down the road. they were still with LSAC when i applied. however, one thing you can do is find someone that kind of remembers you, ask them to write a recommendation, and if they agree, hand them something similar to a resume with the things you want to be included in it. i did this for one of my business operations professors and it worked out fine. most professors probably don't know much about their students outside the class room and they may ask for this info anyway.

2/18/2009 6:38:13 PM

khcadwal...what geographical area are you looking for public interest jobs? If you are willing to work for free, then you shouldn't have a problem getting a public interest job. Also, think about working for a district or superior court judge. DA's offices, PD's offices, clerk's offices...all these places would likely love to have some extra help, especially if its for free. All of these places would also get you plenty of contacts throughout the summer.

I know that some places throughout NC are harder to get these kinds of jobs, but if you go 30 minutes out of the bigger metro areas, then smaller counties would likely love some extra help. For example, Charlotte and Raleigh areas are tough to get into, but if you would go from Charlotte to Statesville, or Raleigh to Wilson, or Durham to Hillsborough, or Greensboro to Lexington/Asheboro - then you are likely to have better luck getting something with a judge, DA, PD, or clerks office. Just my $0.02!

2/19/2009 10:48:44 AM

Raleigh is where I'm looking haha. I realize the bigger metro areas are more saturated but that is where my parents live so, if I work for free I need to live for free I need a "real" job/internship to get IOLTA funding by an approved place (v. just casual volunteering). So I haven't been applying to like volunteer, I've been applying for their unpaid internships. Even the DAs and Public Defenders around here (Greensboro) are "hiring"---like there is a process (in the smaller counties). And trust me, I tried doing Legal Aid in Smithfield, Pittsboro, and Wilson. Nada. This is after I've spent a semester interning at Legal Aid in Gboro. The only problem with the smaller places is the drive, which sucks if you are working for free. Ahhh. I mean I don't want to work for free, I'm just saying even the places I've applied to work for free, that I assumed not as many students would want, haven't hired me.

I just don't understand who they are taking?? I actually want to do that type of work and I have a bad feeling people like in the top 5 of their classes at like Duke are applying for the same jobs and getting hired even if they have no intention of ever doing public interest work. That, or I just suck. But I swear my grades aren't bad and my resume is not a blank canvas. So I just don't get it.

I mean do you only apply through jobs via your school and other job postings or do you look up firms/other places you'd like to work and just send them your resume/cover letter unsolicited??!! I really don't know what else to do. I didn't even want to work this summer, I was planning on studying abroad, but due to unforeseen circumstances, I will be here this summer, so I figured I should try to get some type of law-related job?!?

Sigh.

2/19/2009 12:41:41 PM

Well I had a professor that has a lot of experience with cover letters and resumes, and also my career services director, look at my cover letter and resume. Then, back in August, I mailed out about 50 cover letters and resumes to firms in the Raleigh and Charlotte areas. I waited a couple weeks and then called to make sure that they had received the material and inquired into the next step.

I was forced to go this route because our school doesn't have on-campus interviews. So, I sent out unsolicited resumes to firms that practiced in the geographical and legal areas that I was interested in. You have to be proactive, most of the jobs that people are getting aren't advertised. Look at jbrick83's story.

A resume and cover letter are marketing tools. You have to market yourself to the employer, and make them see why they should hire you. I just went and heard Kimberly Walton, author of Guerrilla Tactics for Getting the Legal Job of Your Dreams, and she had a lot of good advice that basically boiled down to marketing yourself.

Also, I don't know if you just started looking for a summer job or not, but most places have already hired by now. You should start sending out resumes and cover letters by August, September, or October at the latest.

Lastly, you said that you have tried all these places, but I still haven't seen any judges chambers. Superior Court judges and District Court judges are great places to get your feet wet. They might not be applicable for IOLTA funding, but there are other scholarships out there. Equal justice works. Among many others. Granted, you might have missed the deadline for many of these because you coming into the game late.

I would broaden my search for a summer job beyond that of public interest. Coming into the game this late, makes it a whole lot harder to get a job, or finding funding. It might be that you have to volunteer with a firm or office and then work on the evenings or weekends. Just get something legal related to put your resume. Otherwise, its going to be even tougher to get a legal related job upon graduation.

[Edited on February 19, 2009 at 3:58 PM. Reason : know]

2/19/2009 3:57:34 PM

yea i applied for things in the fall, too. some things i'm just hearing back from now (and in jan). we have several on campus interviews still coming up through march, though. and there are a couple of job fairs in raleigh and charlotte.

for some reason, i just assumed working for a judge was WAY more competitive than doing other things. maybe that isn't true.

i dunno, i mean maybe it will be tough for me to find a legal job upon graduation without having had one (besides internships during the school year--do these not look good or pull as much weight as a summer job??).

but i appreciate the advice. i just felt like i should get something legal related because that is what i'm "supposed to do." i have been paying attention to deadlines, i just haven't applied to EVERY firm that has had an on campus interview--i guess i should have done that? i kind of picked the ones that were more related to what i want to do. i guess that was wrong.

i guess i just don't care about working just solely because it looks good on my resume?? that is DEFINITELY the wrong attitude but i wanted to do a meaningful internship or have an experience that would be relevant to my future interests. definitely the wrong approach, i know. there are still several jobs with deadlines open until march and april even that i have found, and some firms coming to interview on campus. and like the attorney general's deadline was just in the past two weeks. i'm just certain that these won't pan out because nothing else has so i just was wondering what i'm doing wrong. besides not applying for EVERYTHING. i've definitely applied a lot of places and i interviewed and applied during the fall, too.

and you can't find funding for a lot of things until you have a job already set up. the funding deadlines for several scholarships/grants are still open until march/april just because you have to have everything set up before you can get funding. and they have to be "approved" places, etc. ughhhh. such a process!!

but thanks for the advice!!!

2/19/2009 4:31:16 PM

Quote :

"for some reason, i just assumed working for a judge was WAY more competitive than doing other things. maybe that isn't true. "

The big judges are very competitive...and now I think all clerkships are getting really competitive because the big firms aren't hiring as much...if at all. I know some of our top students who would usually have been picked up by big firms are working for judges in BFE that they never wanted to work for.

And I probably should have added this to my "don't worry it's not just you" post: you still have time. All the big firms and judges are hiring during your first semester...but there are a lot of smaller firms out there that have lawyers leave to go solo, or retire, or they just sometimes decide they have room for another attorney...and that will happen all of a sudden. I was getting a couple emails a week about small firms hiring around South Carolina at the end of my last semester and while I was studying for the Bar exam (I keep forgetting that you're a 2L...still holds true with smaller firms suddenly deciding they need a little summer help).

Guess I'm just trying to keep you from freaking out as much.

2/19/2009 4:57:19 PM

Quote :

"dharney All American 1158 Posts user info edit post so I've been thinking about going to law school and i was curious to get some advice from those that are in law school or have been there. I would be looking into patent law mainly. I have my BS in Physics and Chemistry with a 3.3 GPA I have one year left of grad school before finishing up my PhD in chemistry, 3.5 GPA I have not taken the LSATs yet What kind of scores do I need to get into law school? Obviously higher tiered schools have higher requirements. Maybe I could get a range for some NC schools (Campbell, UNC, Charlotte School of Law, Duke?). Is my GPA good enough? I know I didn't have a shot at Med School coming outta college. Also, mentally, what kind of things should I think about before going to law school, what to consider in terms of how hard classes are, what kind of jobs are available, and what kind of person do you need to be to be a successful law school student. I never did cocaine, so I probably couldn't be a GREAT lawyer. But I think I have a decent shot. Thanks"

your grades are good enough, having the extra degree will help you, LSAT for Campbell, Elon, Charlotte, Central probably averages in the high 150s (???) and then Duke and UNC 165+ (????) I just made up those numbers but I feel like they are pretty accurate. Wake I feel like is up in the air with scores. Anyway, I would set a goal to get a 160 at least on it and you should be good to go for a lot of schools in NC. Your PhD should help, as well.

With your science background, you should consider patents. There's always a demand for that and the science background is usually required and very few people in law school have the science backgrounds (we are math dummies haha). Duke, UNC and Wake are all top 100 law schools though. They may all be top 50 (not sure about Wake). But Duke and UNC are both up there as far as schools go. Campbell, Charlotte, Central and Elon are all lower and probably somewhat similar. Although Campbell is the most reputable out of those 4. And it is moving to Raleigh, which is a plus!

2/22/2009 1:15:54 PM

UNC = #38
WAKE = #42

Both schools have dropped a bit in the US News Rankings over the past couple of years. Both schools were in the low-to-mid 30s, but getting new deans caused them to drop in rankings (at least that's what I'm told by various people). Also, I've heard a lot of poor things about UNC's career services, but that's just from one person who went to UNC. He had decent grades and they never seemed to want to help him out. It could also be though that he wanted a big-law job, and UNC has the public service rep to maintain?

2/22/2009 5:34:17 PM

^^ Applying with a phd means the GPA will matter far less than it does for folks coming straight out of undergrad. If you're thinking of doing IP law, you want to be sure whatever school you go to has a good program for it. George Washington is known for their IP program. It's also very important to have some sort of idea what kind of job you want. If you're looking for a big firm job ($Texas), you should probably only be looking at top 40 schools. If you were thinking more government or public interest the ranking of the school matters less. Also, where you want to practice will be pretty important. You're best off going to a school in the same region as where you want to practice.

LSAT's for Campbell or Elon are probably 155ish, UNC and Wake probably 160, and Duke is looking for close to 170's. I'd take Charlotte off your list, I don't think they're fully accredited and they cost almost as much as Duke. Also, something to think about is that Elon and Charlotte are new schools and don't have an alumni network.

Check out http://www.lsac.org and http://www.nalp.org There's also a book called 1L about law school that might give you a bit of an idea what to expect by ways of classes etc.

Just my .02

2/22/2009 7:58:21 PM

^^In response to some of your comments on UNC.

I'm a 1L at UNC. I had a 165 on my LSAT and a 3.8 GPA with a BA in Spanish and a BA in Political Science and a minor in Middle Eastern studies from State.

UNC has some good things, and some drawbacks. It's honestly been a very frustrating first year, and not because of the classes.

The Law School itself seems to be run by a bunch of clusterfucks. It's not uncommon for them to schedule a "mandatory meeting" four days in advance. This weekend, I spent 8 hours at a Negotiations Seminar, which was absolutely worthless. Additionally, as dyson pointed out, UNC's Career Services is a joke. They get tons of funding, but most of it goes towards Pro bono work.

I wish someone had informed me of this, but if you are not at all interested in public service or pro bono, UNC may not be the best choice for you. CSO also held a mandatory three hour lecture on a Wednesday night on how to go pro bono. It's a complete waste of time, and I got nothing out of it, because I have no interest in that field.

Also be prepared for little falsehoods, which they don't consider lies. Chances are, if you're white, you won't get a scholarship. We were all promised that those with the highest grades would get scholarships our second semester. I was turned down for scholarships because I wasn't diverse. We were also promised weekly emails for scholarships and grants we could apply to, I've gotten 1 since August. I also had damn good grades my first semester and haven't seen a penny. They don't think for themselves. We didn't get a snow day until the first class was almost over, and 3+ inches of snow was already on the ground. It also bothers me that they don't consider me for any financial aid unless I add parental information to my FAFSA. I'm 23 and in law school, yet UNC Law decides that I must still live off of my parents. They won't even consider the possibility that I don't get a dime from them. If the FAFSA doesn't require it, UNC shouldn't either.

But, aside from all of that, there are tons of benefits to going to UNC. It is cheaper than most other schools out there, and the connections are unheard of. The doors will open if you mention you go to UNC for Law School. UNC Law Alumni tend to hire UNC Law Alumni or students. They're a tight knit bunch. Most of the professors and faculty have JD's from UNC, and a good portion of students find their jobs that way. My professors and their subjects have been great. The work load is challenging, but manageable, and they're all very receptive to students outside of class.

You will feel like a middle schooler for your first year. You have a core group of students that you will take all your classes with, eat lunch with, and have a locker next to. After your first year, you get to mingle with the rest of the school. classes are large as well. My main 3 classes are around 70 people, but my 1 small class is closer to 15.

I suspect that at any University you choose, you'll find a mix of good with the bad. But I would find out what that is before you go there. I know it sounds like I've ranted about UNC, but I really do enjoy law school. It's mainly the administrative attitude that I've become disgruntled with. They can't seem to understand that I have a life outside of law school, and giving me four days notice to come in on a weekend is not adequate.

2/22/2009 8:32:47 PM

Quote :

"They can't seem to understand that I have a life outside of law school, and giving me four days notice to come in on a weekend is not adequate."

Don't let the door of the real world hit you on the way out.

2/22/2009 11:17:32 PM

^It would be different if it were just a Friday evening or a brief period on a Saturday. But it was the entire weekend, for a pointless seminar, with little to not warning. My family flew in from Wisconsin this weekend. I've spent an hour with them, they fly back tomorrow.

I understand that having to come in on the weekends is a legitimate thing, my problem is the continuing trend of a total disregard for the student's themselves. The administration couldn't give a shit about the impact they have on students, as long as it looks good to the prospective students.

I honestly think their policy is to get as many people to sign up, then treat them like dirt.

[Edited on February 23, 2009 at 9:22 AM. Reason : ]

2/23/2009 8:57:13 AM

Hey,

I'm applying to law school now and had a few questions. btw I have a 3.77 in Political Science from State and a 150 LSAT score. I have a year and a half of law firm experience and internships, lots of honor societies and clubs, study abroad on scholarship in China, and some other softs. I have a letter of recommendation from a COA judge / Campbell law professor and my personal essay is extremely well written (8 drafts).

1) Do I have any chance of getting into Wake/UNC/Virginia or higher?

2) I know that Campbell is a T4 school but does anyone think that their rankings will go up after the move to Raleigh, and also what is the chance of being employed and making some legit cash when I get out? Same question about Charleston School of Law (CSOL)

3) I've been accepted to Cambridge University in England, would getting an M.Phil. (masters) in either education or politics there help my chances of getting into a better law school?

if anyone could help me out with any of these questions that would be much appreciated, you can reply to this thread or PM me

Thanks

2/23/2009 5:09:34 PM

1) Unless you know someone...no.

2) I don't see why moving to Raleigh would help their rankings...but I guess it couldn't hurt them. And you can make "legit cash" coming out of any law school if you work your ass off. I just graduated from Charleston School of Law and my legal writing TA who was a year ahead of me and in CSOL's first class got a job with a firm in Chicago making $140K...and another good friend in my class who is making $110K for Nelson Mullins in Greenville, SC right now. There's definitely a better chance of you getting the big bucks if you go to a higher tier law school...but it doesn't look like you're going to have that option.

3) It won't hurt...but I don't think it's going to get you into a UNC/Wake/Virginia type law school. You're better off studying hard and taking the LSAT again.

2/23/2009 5:26:39 PM

Thanks,

How did you like CSOL? Obviously Charleston is the shit but how are the facilities? The last time I was in Charleston I didn't have time to set up an time to check out the facilities. Do you think that the school will become fully accredited?

I was thinking that Wake may be possible based on lawschoolnumbers.com also the College of William and Mary and Washington and Lee. I know my LSAT is low and I'll probably retake it in October but I have a history of poor standardized test scores but high GPA.

How difficult is it to transfer from say CSOL or Campbell to UNC or UVA?

2/23/2009 6:44:39 PM

Quote :

"You're better off studying hard and taking the LSAT again."

That's good advice and that's what I did. I took it again 3 years later though so my old, lower score wouldn't be compared so much with my newer score. I also took a prep course and as a result, my score went up 7 points, which I don't have to tell you is pretty significant.

2/23/2009 7:33:05 PM

I'll echo the advice of work for a year or so and get the LSAT number up. If you're looking to work at a big firm and make some $$$, you're best off going to a Wake, UNC, WL, WM. It's possible to get a big firm job at a lower ranked school, but you'll have to be at the very top of your class, and a lot of firms won't even interview students from schools below a certain rank. Also, I'm at William and Mary, and my guess is the 150 would be a bit too low for us or W&L.

2/23/2009 7:40:59 PM

Quote :

"How did you like CSOL? Obviously Charleston is the shit but how are the facilities? The last time I was in Charleston I didn't have time to set up an time to check out the facilities. Do you think that the school will become fully accredited?"

I think the facilities are fine...but I also didn't visit any other schools. I got offered a big scholarship and took it. The library was a little small at the time...but I think that's been fixed since they recently acquired another big building on King Street. But I always went to the CofC library to study for exams (much better scenery anyways).

The two buildings they have (the one on Mary Street in the old train station and the new one on King Street in the old furniture) are pretty nice. The school has plenty of money...so I think the facilities are pretty close to par. Having a few classes in the Bell South building kinda sucks...but they're still nice rooms. Either way...it sure was nice walking up and down King Street to and from classes.

I'm pretty sure the school will become fully-accredited. My class did really well on the Bar exam, we keep bringing in top-notch faculty, our incoming classes are getting stronger and stronger (your 150 could be a pretty decent sized hurdle to clear for admissions), and our graduates are doing pretty in the real world and are getting great clerkships and first-year associate jobs. All that being said...we're still a lower-tier law school...but a pretty solid one at that.

Quote :

"How difficult is it to transfer from say CSOL or Campbell to UNC or UVA?"

Don't really know how to answer this one. Now that we've been provisionally accredited, that checks that box off (although I knew a kid who transferred to USC before we got provisional accreditation). But I've always heard that you have to have kick ass grades if you're going to transfer to an upper-tier law school. So I guess it's up to you. We did have a girl in our class do her third year at Georgetown but she still graduated with us (so don't know if that counts). It's probably about as easy as it is to transfer from somewhere like Campbell.

I'll say it again though...you should probably take the LSAT again. It sucks that you struggle with standardized tests (about as much as it sucks that they put so much weight into them)...but that's just how it goes. If you didn't take a course...take one. Take a shit-ton of practice tests. Practice makes perfect. Good luck.

2/23/2009 8:26:27 PM

just an FYI - UNC won't accept in-state transfers (unless there are COMPELLING reasons, better school, better course selection etc, don't count as "compelling")

http://www.law.unc.edu/pastudents/applying/transfer.aspx

[Edited on February 23, 2009 at 9:32 PM. Reason : .]

2/23/2009 9:28:26 PM

^ aw damn UNC that hurts


yeah I'm gonna re-take the LSAT, I put in a lot of study time but not as much as others (I found out later) and I didn't take a prep course so I think i could get it up to close to a 160. that damn test just stresses me out like no other. I figure I'll graduate, study all summer for the october LSAT, take it, then go to Cambridge Oct. 8th until June 18th, come back with a master's and hope that I did better on the LSAT. Maybe then I'll have a decent shot at a ranked school and if not I'll just grab a PhD and try to teach somewhere :/

2/23/2009 9:43:26 PM