okay, lesson learned but lets look at this a bit further.

            TOTAL   HOSTILE    SUICIDE
           DEATHS    ACTION  

REAGAN      2,150        72         43
BUSH I      1,556        88         33
CLINTON       938        51          9
G.W.BUSH    1,465       460        176

7/18/2008 11:54:33 AM

I was noticing the accident rate in the PDF.

What on earth were we doing to our poor soldiers during training?

7/18/2008 11:55:55 AM

^^ i don't send out shit as a rule otherwise i would.

^ good question...

[Edited on July 18, 2008 at 11:57 AM. Reason : ...]

7/18/2008 11:57:24 AM

^^^nice graph

7/18/2008 12:02:49 PM

^^^ Military training is inherently dangerous. Big machines moving about, for example, have a tendency to kill people.

But on to some good news. . .

A Shiite Militia in Baghdad Sees Its Power Wane

Quote :

"BAGHDAD — The militia that was once the biggest defender of poor Shiites in Iraq, the Mahdi Army, has been profoundly weakened in a number of neighborhoods across Baghdad, in an important, if tentative, milestone for stability in Iraq. It is a remarkable change from years past, when the militia, led by the anti-American cleric Moktada al-Sadr, controlled a broad swath of Baghdad, including local governments and police forces. But its use of extortion and violence began alienating much of the Shiite population to the point that many quietly supported American military sweeps against the group. Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki struck another blow this spring, when he led a military operation against it in Baghdad and in several southern cities. The shift, if it holds, would solidify a transfer of power from Mr. Sadr, who had lorded his once broad political support over the government, to Mr. Maliki, who is increasingly seen as a true national leader. It is part of a general decline in violence that is resonating in American as well as Iraqi politics: Senator John McCain argues that the advances in Iraq would have been impossible without the increase in American troops known as the surge, while Senator Barack Obama, who opposed the increase, says the security improvements should allow a faster withdrawal of combat troops. The Mahdi Army's decline also means that the Iraqi state, all but impotent in the early years of the war, has begun to act the part, taking over delivery of some services and control of some neighborhoods."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/world/middleeast/27mahdi.html?partner=rssnyt

Here's the political progress that so many leftists were howling about once the military progress became indisputable. Why can't Obama just admit he was wrong--why can't some of you?

7/28/2008 8:08:11 AM

Because the argument is whether the surge was responsible for the reduction in violence that led to political progress, and it can be more likely attributed to ethnic cleansing and the Mahdi Army ceasefire after they essentially won the civil war there? We could have had those troops in Afghanistan and provided material support to the Sunnis to achieve the same thing for a much lower cost. McCain's argument is based on the fact that the surge was the One and Only Reason and Option for reducing violence and it's simply not true no matter how much the media wants you to think it is. It's obnoxious that holding any other plan to achieve the same results is presented as "making a mistake" with no explanation as to why it's a mistake.

7/28/2008 9:14:27 AM

^ I don't recall McCain saying the surge is the "One and Only Reason" for the reduction in violence. I think he's indicated that the surge is the primary reason for continuing military and political stability in Iraq--and he's correct to say that.

But keep trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory--knock yourself out. It's the far-left's last hope concerning the Iraq issue.

7/28/2008 9:26:18 AM

So you deny that McCain's argument is based on the assumption that there would not be reduced violence without the surge

7/28/2008 9:32:22 AM

^ I did nothing of the sort. My post ^^ is written in plain English--read it.

7/28/2008 9:48:13 AM

But nobody's saying that the surge didn't reduce violence, just that there would have been better ways to do it. Which is what Obama's been saying (though he could articulate it better) and everyone has been calling a mistake.

[Edited on September 19, 2008 at 7:46 PM. Reason : you don't need that many rolly eyes. -duke]

7/28/2008 9:51:31 AM

though Obama's judgement tell him in 2007 that the surge would actually increase the level of violence.

7/28/2008 9:57:07 AM

Again, violence decreases when ethnic cleansing means there's no one left to kill

7/28/2008 10:03:18 AM

^ Oh shit--that's stee-raight out of the DNC/MoveOn/Daily Kos talking points. I haven't heard that one in a while.

Bottom line: We were right on the surge--but you just keep a flapping and a flailing and a foaming. It's fun to watch.

7/28/2008 11:04:31 AM

Damn look who's talking about talking points

7/28/2008 11:05:44 AM

^ I get talking points from no one.

7/28/2008 11:13:34 AM

Quote :

"I get talking points from no one."

Yes, because you're the most objective member of these forums by a long shot.

7/28/2008 11:15:18 AM

FAUX NEWS IS FAIR AND BALANCED!!!!1

RAWR RAWR RAWR

7/28/2008 11:43:46 AM

Obama just said the surge worked

/thread

9/5/2008 12:31:22 AM

Yes, but the war is a lie.

One component of the continuation of a lie worked.

A lie isn't one side of the truth, its just a lie.

9/5/2008 12:35:49 AM

thats all good and well but i think the thread title is pretty specific

9/5/2008 12:37:07 AM

Well yes, if you lower the standards enough that anyone can pass then perhaps you can get your gold star for the day.

Its like cheating on your wife .... you can go out, get drunk and score with the waitress from a strip club. But before you came home, you remembered to fill up the gas tank so she could get to work, just like you said you would. Just ignore everything else and you're a great husband, right?

9/5/2008 12:42:55 AM

Well yes, if you lower the standards enough that anyone can pass then perhaps you can get your gold star for the day. The surge is just one component in a war in which success was
"accomplished" in 2003

Its like cheating on your wife .... you can go out, get drunk and score with the waitress from a strip club. But before you came home,
you remembered to fill up the gas tank so she could get to work, just like you said you would.

Just ignore everything else and you're a great husband, right?

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 12:45 AM. Reason : .]

9/5/2008 12:43:30 AM

the thread title is pretty specific

you can feel free to argue about the war itself if you want, but i'm addressing the specific question of the thread which has to do with the surge itself, which Obama just tonight on O'Reilly admitted did indeed work and was indeed successful

i'm more than certain that there are dozens if not hundreds of threads on the war itself if you would like to point out how it was a war based on lies to benefit bush, cheney and their oil buddies, but i'm simply obama's mouthpiece in this thread to say the surge is working better than anyone could've imagined (his words)

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 12:50 AM. Reason : .]

9/5/2008 12:48:37 AM

I think you're missing the point. Operation Hastings was a success in Vietnam but it

1) didn't end the war
2) justify the war
3) provide a lasting peace

A surge without long term benefit is just another ebb of the wave between success and failure. Again, you can take one little piece out of a very large puzzle and trumpet its merits,
but its foolish to just put on blinders and say the context of the overall achievement doesn't matter.

9/5/2008 1:43:51 AM

i'm simply going on what Barack Obama himself said tonight about the surge...are you gonna argue with Obama?

9/5/2008 1:54:33 AM

No, he said you have to keep things in context. The surge worked, which means the more effort we expend to chaperone the children, the better they will behave. We have to leave someday.


[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 2:06 AM. Reason : .\]

9/5/2008 2:04:45 AM

Quote :

"The surge worked"

9/5/2008 10:25:19 AM

Quote :

"the thread title is pretty specific you can feel free to argue about the war itself if you want, but i'm addressing the specific question of the thread which has to do with the surge itself,"

Stop being a retarded prick. This thread was created 2 days short of 17 months ago, and at the time, this was the reality

Quote :

"Up to this point, April is shaping up to be the deadliest since the fall of Baghdad, with an average of almost 5 friendly deaths a day. What gives?"

Furthermore, we still have to wait some more years to see what is ultimately going to happen in Iraq once we start pulling out to see if Bushco was brilliant or a complete failure in Iraq.

One thing that we don't have to wait on is the fact that they bungled the war for years until they finally realized the generals they fired were right all along. This, fact can't be undone with an eventual Iraqi success.

9/5/2008 10:31:17 AM

I think it's pretty silly to discuss the efficacy of the surge from a purely military standpoint and ignore the overall result of the invasion and ongoing occupation of Iraq. Don't get me wrong, I applaud our military for turning what was a full out quagmire into something much more manageable. If nothing else, they've increased my confidence in their capabilities if the need for future hostile action in foreign land arises.

At the end of the day though, you still have (by the most conservative of estimates) ~150,000 dead Iraqi's, ~4000 dead US troops, and tens of thousands more injured. You've also got the damage the war caused to the US's reputation around world and our economy. Will anything accomplished by the surge be worth that?

Worse than any of that, and this is something that hasn't been discussed enough, you also have ~2,000,000 Iraqi refugees who by most accounts have no intention of ever returning to the country. Most of these refugees are the people who could leave, meaning the people with money. Mostly engineers, doctors, lawyers, and the other educated masses of Iraq. How good are the prospects of Iraq ever becoming this shining beacon of democracy and capitalism in the middle east when a massive portion of the population that would have made that possible no longer lives in the country?

So before singing the praises of the surge and declaring victory in Iraq, remember how much irreparable damage has already been caused and how unlikely it remains that there will ever be an overall positive outcome from this whole thing.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 11:20 AM. Reason : :]

9/5/2008 11:04:12 AM

Shrike posting at TSB! Wow. Cool man

And I actually agree with your post whole heartedly.

9/5/2008 12:51:49 PM

So basically, if I understand the general consensus here...

The surge never had a chance to "work," and nothing could have "worked" because the damage already caused is irreversible.

The question is "is the surge working?" not "is the surge working and if so, did its success make this a worthwhile war?"

9/5/2008 1:59:46 PM

I think most everyone agrees that it "worked" but that doesn't make a lot of people feel better about being there because there still isn't an end it sight and we've already wasted shitloads of money and pissed off every other country in the world

9/5/2008 2:01:20 PM

Quote :

"(though he could articulate it better)"

i doubt that. lol

9/5/2008 3:00:51 PM

Quote :

"So basically, if I understand the general consensus here... The surge never had a chance to "work," and nothing could have "worked" because the damage already caused is irreversible. The question is "is the surge working?" not "is the surge working and if so, did its success make this a worthwhile war?""

Yes it is.

We might be handing Baghdad over to Iraqi forces next July. 13 out of 18 provinces are already handed over to ISF.

Like I said. This thing is over. Iraq is essentially on cruise control now. Done.

Afghanistan and Pakistan are where its at now.

5 missle strikes inside Pakistan with an actual public boots on ground special forces mission in the last week.

9/5/2008 3:13:31 PM

^whew. man, that makes me feel so much better

9/5/2008 3:26:10 PM

Quote :

"Satellite images taken at night show heavily Sunni Arab neighborhoods of Baghdad began emptying before a U.S. troop surge in 2007, graphic evidence of ethnic cleansing that preceded a drop in violence, according to a report published on Friday. The images support the view of international refugee organizations and Iraq experts that a major population shift was a key factor in the decline in sectarian violence, particularly in the Iraqi capital, the epicenter of the bloodletting in which hundreds of thousands were killed. Minority Sunni Arabs were driven out of many neighborhoods by Shi'ite militants enraged by the bombing of the Samarra mosque in February 2006. The bombing, blamed on the Sunni militant group al Qaeda, sparked a wave of sectarian violence. "By the launch of the surge, many of the targets of conflict had either been killed or fled the country, and they turned off the lights when they left," geography professor John Agnew of the University of California Los Angeles, who led the study, said in a statement. "Essentially, our interpretation is that violence has declined in Baghdad because of intercommunal violence that reached a climax as the surge was beginning," said Agnew, who studies ethnic conflict. Some 2 million Iraqis are displaced within Iraq, while 2 million more have sought refuge in neighboring Syria and Jordan. Previously religiously mixed neighborhoods of Baghdad became homogenized Sunni or Shi'ite Muslim enclaves. The study, published in the journal Environment and Planning A, provides more evidence of ethnic conflict in Iraq, which peaked just before U.S. President George W. Bush ordered the deployment of about 30,000 extra U.S. troops. The extent to which the troop build-up helped halt Iraq's slide into sectarian civil war has been debated, particularly in the United States, with supporters of the surge saying it was the main contributing factor, and others arguing it was simply one of a number of factors. "Our findings suggest that the surge has had no observable effect, except insofar as it has helped to provide a seal of approval for a process of ethno-sectarian neighborhood homogenization that is now largely achieved," Agnew's team wrote in their report."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080919/sc_nm/iraq_lights_dc

9/19/2008 6:53:11 PM

Quote :

"We might be handing Baghdad over to Iraqi forces next July. 13 out of 18 provinces are already handed over to ISF. Like I said. This thing is over. Iraq is essentially on cruise control now. Done."

If true (we've heard tales that it was over many times before), that means Obama is going to get credit for it

9/19/2008 7:00:48 PM

Quote :

"Our findings suggest that the surge has had no observable effect"

Very interesting. I have suspected all along that it would be difficult to single out the surge as the main factor in the reduction of violence. But I knew that any reduction in violence occuring at the same time as the surge would be very easy to attribute to it, especially by the warhawks.

Correlation does not necessarily equal causation. This is why Obama has not answered a straight "yes" or "no" to whether the surge worked. He is capable of critical thought.

9/19/2008 7:33:22 PM

Remember when Obama voted for the surge?


Yep. Neither do I.


Look at this filthy mess of a thread. go back and read page 1. LOL

9/19/2008 9:51:25 PM

how ironic - Christians were left to live in peace in Iraq under Saddam. Now they are targeted for killings and being run out of the country. Their numbers have decreased from 800,000 from pre-war to <100,000 now
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95664745

10/13/2008 8:03:59 AM

amazing.....
here's footage of a friendly fire incident (in 2006) where 2 soldiers were killed, and the families were told it was from the insurgency
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/10/14/friendly_fire
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/10/14/friendlyfirevideo


i'm in the middle of watching Generation Kill right now and it seems pretty raw already (although I'm sure it still can't compare to the real thing). But this video confirms a lot of the in-fighting, communication mishaps, and general confusion that is highlighted in Generation Kill a lot

verbatim from the video

Quote :

"" Them tankers got an ass whooping coming from hell," said one. "I swear to fucking God I'm beating some ass. That was uncalled for." "Hey. Live in the now," cautioned Rob, taking a break from radio chatter. "Where it's good." "Meeker said he saw when the bitch came in on him," protested a soldier. "He saw the bitch come in on him." "I saw it too," agreed Rob. "I'm just pissed," said the soldier. "I know," said Rob. "The reason why I was pissed is because he saw that round, from the tank. That was not an Iraqi." "I saw it too," repeated Rob. "It was a tank." "And I was right next to him," said a soldier who'd been on the roof. "It was a tank, it was a tank," repeated Rob, agreeing with his angry men, trying to get them to calm down. "We know it was a tank. They got an ass whooping coming. That's all I got to say." Rob decided to deliver the message to higher-ups. "I want it understood," he said into the radio to Dog-6, the handle used by the company commander, Capt. James Enos. "That was one of our tanks." As Rob listened to what his superiors were telling him, the men on the ground floor started to catch the drift. Rob said, "Good, copy," but before he could say anything to the soldiers around him, one of them had blurted, "That's bullshit!" "You're going to have to walk with me," said Rob. "That's fucking bullshit," insisted the soldier. The Army was telling Rob that the men on the roof, Hobson, Meeker, Nelson, Suarez and the Iraqis, had been hit by enemy fire, not a tank round. "It is a tank," insisted a soldier who'd been on the roof. "I was up there. I know." "OK," said Rob. "Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. None of it matters. OK? Doesn't matter. "Yeah, it matters," protested another soldier. "Doesn't matter," insisted Rob. "It matters to me," said the soldier. "They're saying we got hit with a 120," said another soldier, telling the men in the room what the official story would be. Rob addressed the men, confirming their suspicions. "It was a 120 mortar, OK? Got it? You fucking got it? It was a 120 mortar." "Don't even worry about it, OK? Until we hear different it was a 120- millimeter mortar. I don't think it was. But for now, that's the way it is, and that's what happened, got it?" About 50 minutes after the explosion on the roof, one of Sergeant Rob's men told him, "Your camera's still on." Startled, Robison responded, "Yeah. Turn that bitch off.""

[Edited on October 14, 2008 at 9:26 PM. Reason : .]

10/14/2008 9:00:14 PM

i thought this was as good a place as any to post this...but from CNN this am...

Quote :

" BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Coalition troops formally handed over control of Iraq's Wasit province to the Iraqi government Wednesday. Wasit, about 100 miles southeast of Baghdad, is the 13th of Iraq's 18 provinces to revert to local security control. On Thursday, Iraqis assumed control of Babil province. And last month, coalition troops handed over Anbar province to the Iraqis. The transfers come amid a big drop in violence in Iraq and calls from Iraqis for the United States to come up with a troop withdrawal timetable. Video Watch the Wasit hand-over ceremony » The other provinces that have shifted to Iraqi security control are Duhuk, Irbil and Sulaimaniya in the Kurdish region, and Karbala, Najaf, Qadisiya, Muthanna, Thiqar, Basra, and Maysan in the Shiite south. Baghdad, Diyala, Salaheddin, Nineveh and Kirkuk remain under U.S. control. advertisement In northeastern Baghdad on Wednesday, a roadside bomb struck a minibus, killing two people and wounding six others, the Interior Ministry said. The vehicle, carrying employees of the Education Ministry, was struck in Ur Square about 9 a.m., an Interior Ministry official said. "

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.main/index.html

I didn't realize that so many provinces had actually been returned to Iraqi control.

10/29/2008 12:12:13 PM

bump

8/11/2010 8:54:23 AM

Why bump? History will record that GWB was right with the surge, and well all know that the most democrats, including Obama were wrong....end of story

8/11/2010 1:14:14 PM

^ Yep. But I requested the bump because it appears that even left-wing media types like Christiane Amanpour now get it and have no choice but to admit it:

'This Week' Transcript: Odierno and Chiarelli
Plus, the 'This Week' roundtable
August 8, 2010

Quote :

"AMANPOUR: The surge, let's face it, has worked up until now. We can see that it's had a huge, huge impact on stability in Iraq, despite a spike in violence. Do you think that it would have been even politically expedient to actually praise the surge? Because the future of Iraq is this president's future."

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/week-transcript-odierno-chiarelli/story?id=11351927&page=4

BTW, the entire panel laughed openly at the video clip of Biden claiming Iraq as one of the "great achievements of this administration"--even though both he and Obama opposed "the surge":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOYdFaaQeLc



Hell, man, I'm liable to say any goddamned thing!

8/11/2010 4:05:00 PM

hooksaw is such a hack

8/13/2010 4:32:38 AM

Quote :

"^ Look, man, it's obvious what you're trying to do. You won't last around here if you keep it up."

8/13/2010 6:38:30 PM

No, no it isn't working

6/12/2014 11:22:15 AM

So we should have done a perpetual surge?

6/12/2014 11:45:02 AM

No sir - not in the least. We should've left, not surged.

6/12/2014 12:23:52 PM